What are the ideals of Zeon, exactly?
I mean, besides "fuck earf, colony drops all day everyday" and "monoeye stronk."
Something something independence from Earth
>mfw they say "its really about spacenoid independence"
Zeon Zum Deikun did/said nothing wrong
>>13585287
Actually, it's about ethics in the Earth Federation.
>>13585289
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Zeon_Zum_Deikun
>>13585278
To get out from mars.
Something about terrorizing the earthnoids and stealing their salt.
Where's that G.I. JIM copypasta.
>>13585295
Was anyone even using Mars during the OYW?
>>13585291
Those dead spacenoids of Sides 2 and 5 would like to disagree.
>>13585301
>what is the F90 series.
>>13585299
Here you go.
>>13585278
They're pretty much space fascists. The Zabi family's goal was to install themselves as dictators of everything, and the soldiers who served them were nationalistic idiots who thought that Zabi Stronk.
>>13585316
GM will protect me, there's nothing to fear!
>>13585318
Yeah that's fairly accurate.
Gentle reminder that Zeon has killed more Spacenoids in one week than Basque Ohm has in his wet dreams.
>>13585334
the titans were too nice
>>13585334
>>13585335
>>13585347
>mfw titans apologists
>>13585353
Come on bitch boy
>>13585353
>mfw Ridleyposters
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>>13585312
Their fault for siding with the Federation. Got to learn that if you're a collaborator, you're as big a target as any federation garrison. Also being used as shieldscanonality is questionable though
>>13586160
Better Zabi than a Deikun hippy
>>13585278
>What are the ideals of Zeon, exactly?
1. Everyone should into space and NEWTYPE
2. If you want to stay on earth, heug things should fall on you
3. Hostages must learn proper table manners and take piano lessons.
4. Fannels good, two eyes bad.
>>13585323
I always love this image
![[HorribleSubs] Mobile Suit Gundam The Origin - 01 [720p].mkv_snapshot_00.04.04_[2015.10.02_00.00.45].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/PvFYKTM.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Mobile Suit Gundam The Origin - 01 [720p].mkv_snapshot_00.04.04_[2015.10.02_00.00.45].jpg")
>>13586189
>Deikun
>hippy
He probably would have approved of Gihren more than Degwin did.
>>13586720
Nah. The differences between Deikun and Gihren are as huge as between Lenin and Hitler.
Deikun had a dream about the Newtype world and Gihren wanted to have power.
Deikun was more democratic and Gihren was more into totalitarianism.
Gihren have declared superiority of spacenoids over earthnoids and Deikun said nothing about someone's inferiority by the law.
>>13585278
Did zeon ever behead anyone?
it seems like the kind of shit theyd do
>>13585334
The Titans were assholes, but you can certainly see how they were able to seize so much power given Gato's operation stardust antics.
Great job zeon remnants, making life in the earth sphere worse for everyone.
>>13587242
>Lenin
He was still a douchebag that caused massive deaths. Just because he wasn't a eugenics psycho like Hitler doesn't mean Lenin didn't greenlight the Cheka to do all sorts of atrocities in the name of the revolution.
>>13585278
I'm a huge fan of Metal Armor Dragonar and Martian Successor Nadesico. Seeing how both series had people who wanted independence from Earth, but unfortunately it spiraled into a clusterfuck of atrocities.
How would the UC geopolitics look like if the Giganos Lunar Empire and Jovian Federation were political entities? Let each faction keep their respective tech. Particularly the Jovians because we all know how weird the Jupiter Energy Fleet is in UC canon and the fact they discovered alien factories to differentiate them from Zeon.
Because if the Moon and Jupiter are free from the Earth Federation and have their own political ideology as colonists, how does Zeon, Side 6, and the Federation cope with them?
>>13587290
No, but they blinded Bosque Ohm when he was their prisoner of war, hence why his eyes are fucked up. It probably explains why he's a massive asshole.
Both Zeon and the Federation were full of shitheads. While I can sympathize the average Zeonic citizen wanting independence, their higher-ups were Grade-A assholes. The Federation was run by amoral bureaucrats manipulated by a shadowy cabal of elitists who didn't give a fuck about the spacenoids and their plights. The average Fed citizen wasn't aware of this and they didn't have the means to bring the government in line.
>>13587290
>Did zeon ever behead anyone?
Seems like if they had any form of ritual execution it would involve dropping a heavy object onto someone.
>>13587670
>>No, but they blinded Bosque Ohm when he was their prisoner of war, hence why his eyes are fucked up.
I know Bask being a POW during the One Year War is mentioned somewhere, but where was it mentioned his captors literally blinded him?
>>13587657
I love Dragonar, but I'm not even sure what Giganos wanted exactly or WHY they were doing their thing in the first place.
>>13588180
So they stoned people to death with boulders?
>>13587657
>Cheka
Nice meme.
In fact, Cheka was the police organization which was created to fight banditism, espionage and (since January 27 of 1921) homelessness among children.
>just a douchebag that caused massive deaths
I wonder what you would say if you were born in Russian Empire and worked 60 hours for a week for 10 to 25 roubles monthly payment (English workers, for example, were working 52,5 hours in a week for 41 rouble for a month)
The flaws of Tsardom and uselessness of Provisional Government were obvious for everyone.
>>13585278
That living in space has made them physically and morally superior to the earth bound humans. Because of this they should be the ones to rule mankind's destiny.
>>13588623
This is Zabi idea
>>13588658
The ideals of Zeon as a nation seem to have a lot more to do with the Zabis than they do with Deikun.
>>13588658
Deikun was the one who started the whole 'Only Spacenoid can evolve into Newtype ubermensch' nonsense. The Zabis just took those ideas to their logical conclusion (Spacenoid supremacism).
>>13587290
Not exactly Zeon, but Zanscare (another group of Crazy Genocidal Spacenoids) loved to use the guillotine a lot.
>>13585323
Why is it you people do not side with Zeon ?
If you earth keks would have not resisted, Zabi would have taken control of everything, granted ever single Zabi is a fucking maniac and incompetent, guess who was gonna kill them all off ? THAT'S RIGHT CHAR ! Char would have been the ruler of us all, don't tell me you wouldn't follow Char, TELL ME YOU WOULDN'T SUCK HIS FUCKING DICK ?
yeah that's what I thought, Earthkeks btfo
>>13588788
Char wouldn't have had the means or skill to kill all the Zabis on his own according to 0079. It was only because of the war he was able to do it, and even then, only barely. If the Zabis had won, he'd never have been able to kill them off.
>>13588804
>Implying Char doesn't create a miracle in Char's Counterattack
>>13588669
Is there even a single spacenoid faction that doesn't make life worse for everybody? In UC, that is.
>>13588788
>Following the guy who later tried to drop a huge rock on Earth
>>13588666
But earthnoids couldn't become newtypes, if their parents weren't in space
>>13588928
Even by the end of UC there's no real conclusive theory of how you get a newtype. About the best one is that war awakens them regardless of whether they're on Earth or in Space. And frankly, given how similar the Island 3 colonies are to Earth, there's no reason that they should awaken in space and not Earth anyways.
>>13588788
>every single Zabi is a fucking maniac and incompetent
It's really mostly Ghiren who's an incompetent maniac. The others are sane but incompetent or competent maniacs.
>>13588944
Basically the people who are called newtypes share nothing with the newtypes from Deikun's philosophy except the name. There's really not even a reason to believe they didn't occur occasionally in the population before space colonization started, all we know is that they weren't a recognized phenomenon prior to the One Year War.
>>13588996
Didn't the sister shoot her own brother in the head ? and didn't one of the sons kill the father ?
>>13588788
Char is not a good leader
>>13589056
>didn't one of the sons kill the father
That was Ghiren. He had Degwin's ship in the line of fire because his father realized the war was lost and wanted to go ahead and make peace instead of carrying things out to the bitter end.
Afterwards Kycillia confronts him about it and then shoots him.
>>13589069
How's that?
>>13589086
They guy in big Zam was pretty fucking banans too, Garma was probably the only sane one
>>13588374
Oh and War Communism and all the horrors of Lenin and Trotsky were fine and dandy? Or the nightmare under Stalin?
The tsars can go fuck themselves, they had a chance to reform long ago but didn't. And Kerensky err'd in remaining in the war, but even the Bolshivists didn't win much seats before AND after the October Revolution. It's why Lenin suspended votes in the name of the revolution.
And the Cheka was notorious for torturing and killing dissidents during the Russian Civil War. I get it that you're some Marxist who wants a workers' paradise, but Lenin and Trotsky can go fuck themselves along with the Tsars and their Okrana thugs.
>>13589097
>guy in the big Zam
Dozle is one of the only Zabis who isn't a complete ass (along with Garma)
>>13588374
> the police organization that was created to fight bandits, spying and child homelessness
That is a rather uniquely specific and disparate set of things to be policing. Why would you task the same folks that are looking for spies with trying to rehouse children? I obviously need to brush up on Russian history.
>>13589090
In CCA he completely forgets his plan the moment he gets to duel Amuro 1 on 1, risking his life and leadership.
That's very egoist of him, and being egoist does not make for a good leader.
>>13588235
They were straight-up imperialists and military fascists. The whole Giganos command structure is fucking insane. The final 10 episodes pissed me off over how insane things went.
Anyhow Giganos and the Zabis would definitely butt heads over whose Dick is bigger. Giganos had a distinct advantage for being on the moon and having that mass driver as a weapon. Not to mention that battle station with ridiculous response time. Their mecha already had beam weapons compared to Zeonic forces in early OYW.
I would love to see the Gon Jym team face Zeon's aces. Or Plato against Gato while they're both pissed at how the other is a poser.
The Jovians would hate the Earth that they might consider a temporary alliance with Zeon and/or Giganos, but would want to take over everything. The Jupitet Energy Fleet would be something to keep an eye out for.
>>13589131
There's also the fact that he was only in leadership in the first place so that he could drop a deuce on Earth and fight Amuro over his mommy issues and planned to ditch it as soon as that was done. While in power he did nothing that wasn't ultimately in service of those goals and never actually did much, if anything to help Spacenoids or really address any of their problems: only fuel his own goals. Which makes him kind of a shit leader.
>>13588887
The AEUG and Second Crossbone Vanguard. That's basically it.
>>13589124
It's bullshit. So-called "bandits" were anyone who resisted the Red Army or were considered a threat. That's what Soviet documents labeled them as during cover-ups.
In 1992, the new Russian government even recognized the Cheka's activities as war crimes and atrocities against their own people. Go look up books on the Russia Revolution and Russian Civil War to see what sort of shit went down.
Either >>13588374 is trolling or they truly believe the Soviet era was a swell time; I find it hard to believe we'd have Commies on /m/.
>>13589165
>In 1992
You mean when Russia was shifting into "US puppet #58"?
>>13589157
This
What the fuck happened to the guy that I rooted for in Zeta Gundam? Char had a chance in leading Zeon into peace and prosperity for his spacenoids while trying to work out accords with the Federation.
>>13589165
Maybe he's just saying the Comunist revolution was a necessary evil to propel an agricultural country with less power than fucking Japan into a modern Industrial state?
The Tsar were no better than the commies, even if it seems to me that Russians actually like having a supreme leader going by how much most of them actually like Putin.
>>13589170
Oh please, this was months after the dissolution of the Soviets in the fall of 1991. They sure as hell weren't signing up to be a US satellite.
Soviet apologists piss the fuck out of me. My Hungarian ancestors suffered plenty because of those assholes in 1956.
>>13589110
>War Communism
That's sad, but there was no alternative until the main powers of Civil War have been defeated. New Economical Politics have helped to reach the pre-revoultionary production temps and life quality.
>Or the nightmare under Stalin?
From what I've heard from some people, the life under Stalin wasn't as horrible as some people would think. I don't like Stalin, but there's nothing we can change.
>but even the Bolshivists didn't win much seats before AND after the October Revolution.
The constituent assembly was "assembled" by the pre-october lists.
>And the Cheka was notorious for torturing and killing dissidents during the Russian Civil War
And that was common among all the participants of Civil War. Kolchak government, Volounteer Army, Soviet Russia, and more of them have practiced different atrocities.
That's wrong. But, again, what's done is done. We can blame them forever, but nobody can punish the criminals and bring back the dead people.
>>13589131
>he completely forgets his plan the moment he gets to duel Amuro 1 on 1,
Amuro can blow up or stop Axis.
Char wants to keep Axis moving.
So Char has to fight Amuro.
>>13589175
The Russian economy was already industrializing before WWI broke out thanks to those massive French loans. Their economy would've overtaken Germany's in 30 years if there was no war or recession.
The problem with Russia was the lack of actual power in the Duma. A forward- thinking tsar should have rid itself of the aristocracy so that a representative government could be ushered in. And then the monarchy to be dissolved.
>>13589124
Well, you have to build the country up from the ashes, establish the educational system (not just for slavs, for all peoples who live there, many of which were on medieval level).
And homeless children are sure to become criminals or die if they won't be helped.
>>13589165
>"bandits" were anyone who resisted the Red Army or were considered a threat
Tell us more.
>>13589180
>They sure as hell weren't signing up to be a US satellite.
Probably you don't know about the decay of the Party and the government, which has started since Khrushev and went through until the fall in 1991.
>>13589175
Pretty much agree with this.
>>13589195
>A forward- thinking tsar should have rid itself of the aristocracy
All of them were afraid of facing the fate of Peter III and Pavel I.
>>13589190
He could have fought Amuro alongside the Alpha Azieru and the cybernewtype I forgot the name of so he'd have better chances of actually winning.
He could have launched an attack on Amuro and Bright when Amuro still didn't have the Nu Gundam so he could actually win.
But no, he had to leak psycoframe info to the Federation so Amuro could have a Gundam and he could duel against a Gundam once more.
>>13589190
>Char gave Amuro the Psychoframe
>The Psychoframe improves Amuro's control of the Nu Gundam
>Therefore Char gives Amuro an edge that will make it easier for Amuro to kill Char's troops just to satisfy his ego and desire for a duel
Isn't Char such a great leader who loves and cares for the lives of his men?
Why does Russia seem to remain a dystopia no matter what form of government or economic system they try? Russian literature makes it seem like that's how it's always been.
>>13589946
Because pre-Mongols, The Rus principalities had a fairly liberal law code and the society was friendly. The Tartar Yoke of 2 centuries brought shame, bloodshed and despotism.
The Mongols never settled ed masse in Russian territory, but they extracted taxes in gold and slaves. They usually gave the honor of collecting this to a particular nobleman who got a cut of the taxes and tribute. So Russians were quite nasty towards each other and missed out on the Renaissance.
By the time, they overthrew the Mongols, another form of authoritarianism was imposed by the various Tsars. There isn't any other form of government Russians had for over 7 centuries.
>>13588788
>Why is it you people do not side with Zeon ?
Well for one, last I checked I live on earth, which is where colonies tend to get dropped onto.
>>13590079
> There isn't any other form of government Russians had for over 7 centuries
I'm pretty sure there has to be at least a bit more to it than that given that Ireland was under British occupation for around 800 years, including fairly brutal policing and retribution whenever the Irish got rebellious. The fact that Russia has a massive land area, most of which is desolate and isolated from any kind of economic or cultural sectors probably plays in to things for instance. It's also hard to rule so disparate a country given how hard it is to reach a lot of those places.
>>13585323
All of this was easily refuted, but people will still be dumb enough to fall for this bait.
The only real flaw of Zeon was the slow down in R&D development during the early and middle part of the OYW which for unknown reasons happens. (The Dom prototype was finished in March and the production model wasn't rolled out until November.) Imagine if the Doms and Gelgoogs were rolled out in the summer and how that would impact the war. Now we don't know how mobile armors like Braw Bro and Elmeth would be affected, or the specter of the Big Zam being mass produced. But if that unknown lull did not occur, Zeon would have been in a much better position for the war.
>>13590354
> All of this was easily refuted
> doesn't actually refute any of it
> Quickly moves on to change the subject
Classy.
>>13590363
Check the archives, people seem to love to bring those up. But for your benfit, he's the non pussy, needs an image to cover that wall of text version.
>Federation was using their leverage to isolate Side 3 with economic sanctions which the other Sides were more or less pressured into agreeing with (minus Side 6 when they declared independence with the help of Side 3) And the fastest way to cripple a country is through the economy.
>War was coming sooner or later, especially with the Federation's 70's Rearmament Program in full swing, To not strike first would open Zeon up to attack
>They attacked Federation aligned Side sand then eliminated any chance that the Sides could later conspire or wage war against them while using minimal resources on their own side. That's just sound strategy. If they were truly indiscriminate, they'd have attacked Side 6 as well.
>The invasion of Earth was to keep the momentum on Zeon's side after the Antarctic Treaty was signed as well as procure more resources for the war effort. Can't just stay in space, the Feddies would build another fleet and send that into space to attack again.
Again only the flaw was the unexplained slow down in R&D development, maybe because the stalemate put them in a lull, we don't know.
>>13589946
>Russia seem to remain a dystopia
Because of real problems being mixed with propaganda.
Zeon are the bad guys. The show never does anything to deny that fact.
Yes, there were noble good soldiers among their ranks like Ramba Ral. Rommel was also a good person too, it doesn't change that he worked for the fucking nazis.
>>13585278
Freeing people souls from Earth gravity.
>>13590417
They whitewash Zeon later in the franchise. Especially Unicorn
>>13590155
The British have a degree of democratic institutions that Russia never had. Ireland was going to get Home Rule by votes but the Great War and Orangemen nixed that.
Everything made post-MSG goes out of its way to make it all seem less black and white, but the reality is Federation was unambiguously good in the first series. There is no reason to side with Zeon in the original series other than the fact that some of their commanders were bros. Ramba Ral and Dozle don't change that Gihren was compared to Hitler (and he didn't know who that was so he took it as a compliment). It didn't change that Zeon is an unapologetic parallel to Imperial Japan from a man who grew up in postwar Japan, a nation that was brutal and inhuman even by "horrors of war" standards. It doesn't change that they were destroyed not only because they obsessed with super weapons over practical solutions (which is why the GM won the war), but because they couldn't stop backstabbing each other.
In MSG you have to be a pretty big edgelord or an idiot to side with Zeon over the Federation.
>>13590436
Oh look, another idiot who didn't pay attention during Unicorn - the show which isn't shy at all about condemning Zeon.
> b-b-but Zeon weren't all baby eating assholes and some of them were portrayed as nobel people so obviously it's white washing them
Say, you know what show that reminds me of? 0079.
>>13590413
Eh, no matter how efficient it was there's really no justifying the gassing of civilian colonies. And it seems all the more brutal when done by people who live in that same sort of environment.
>>13590489
It's Black_Knight, Zeon could have been literally eating babies onscreen and he'd still find some way to justify it and say Zeon did nothing wrong.
>>13590477
0080 and 08 MS Team did a better job in showing Zeonic troops being decent people while the leaders were shitstains
>>13590454
They were going to get after 800 odd years of oppression and subjugation, yes. When the Irish were starving because of a potato famine the British basically laughed and then ignored them. When they rebelled the British did their best to wipe out Irish culture, including language - and succeeded in that part for all intents. They sent over the black and tans to terrorize the citizens, they used them as slave labor in all but name often Times and so on.
The British might have been democratic for part of their rule, but the Irish saw little, if any of it.
>>13590499
Even some of the decent people in Unicorn are assholes. See Zimmerman and his decision to let Loni rampage around Torrington as second hand vengeance for his wife.
>>13590489
Can't make the mother of all omelets without breaking some eggs. Seriously, if they just destroyed the Federation garrisons and moved on. There's a high probability those Sides would still aid the Federation, or Zeon would waste valuable manpower and resources trying to keep the local populations in check. Or worse, the Federation would roll right back in, rebuild and now have a stepping stone into Zeon space.
If you want an in universe example of liberators still being attacked, look at F91. The Crossbone Vanguard is broadcasting 24 they aren't going to target civilians and it's the Federation that takes the fight into population centers while trying to use children as human shields. And even after that, some of the local population still sides with the Federation against the Vanguard. And that's only a single colony. Imagine trying to control an entire Side? Not practical.
>>13590497
I wouldn't defend them if they were figuratively eating babies on screen. Although then you'd have to explain what you got against A modest proposal.
>>13590519
>Although then you'd have to explain what you got against A modest proposal.
Well it isn't meant to be taken seriously for one
>>13590519
>without breaking some eggs
One third of humanity. Most of that was done by Zeon. There are no ends that justify those means.
>>13590511
There was no master plan to exterminate the Irish in the Great Famine. There were earlier potato blights before and the authorities assumed it'd be no worse.
It was indifference and ignorance that was responsible for the mass starvation and clinging onto free trade.
>>13590489
Unicorn literaly retcons UC history to say that everything bad that happened in UC up to the OYW was really the fault of some Evil Feddiejew Conspiracy that took out Newtype affirmative action from a draft constitution so therefore Zeon did nothing wrong.
Let's also not forget that it purports to show the history of the Fed-Zeon conflict yet completely ignores that time Zeon wiped out billions of Spacenoids via nukes and poison gas but has no problems beating us over the head about how Zeon is the Light of hope for all Spacenoids.
>>13590519
No, but you'll defend them when they gas tens of thousands of babies and then shoot their corpses at the planet for the sake of practicality and national security.
There's a reason the Russian revolution, Chinese revolution and so on are held in low opinionby many even within their own borders despite winning and getting to write the history books - and ite for the same reason most people can't condone Zeon. If you have to break that many eggs, the omelette isn't worth it. And would probably taste like shit anyways.
Everybody mad because they were the actual guys that did nothing wrong.
>>13590527
I wasn't claiming otherwise. It still happened though, along with a lot of other shit. And the British made no move to help even when it was obvious things were bad.
>>13590545
Oh, sorry for being unable to make an omelette without eggs.
The end justifies the means in the 70%.
>>13590548
What was that guy all about? What was his objective?
>>13590574
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ah4tW-k8Ao
One eggless omelette recipe.
>>13590578
Fuck bitches
>>13590515
>>13590529
Don't forget Fed troops brutally sacking a town to vent their frustrations,
>>13590591
And raping girls until they drowned in their own blood.
>>13590579
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/11/06/how-to-make-a-rotten-egg/
An eggless egg for an egless omelette
>>13589158
Judau's newtype generation ship, too.
>>13589158
AEUG brings old EF laws back. And that's all. It doesn't deal with the colonial problems or something.
>>13590524
>That's the joke
>>13590526
>>13590545
Ends absolutely justify the means. The examples you used are dubious at best. Even if domestic opinion on the Russian and Chinese Revolutions are questionable, they helped propel their respective countries into Super Power and soon to be Super Power. And while Russia is tilting back and forth, China is still on the rise as result of the major push to get itself out of being an agrarian society. Again, ends justify the means.
I regards to Enemy aligned Sides, you can't leave collaborators alive. That's jut being naive and will instantly bite you in the ass. You'd then go 'Why didn't Zeon deal with them?' Instead of 'Why did Zeon kill them all?'
>>13590669
>It's ok to murder billions of people we claim to be liberating in order to achieve victory in the war for their liberation!
Zeon logic everyone. Is it any wonder why they've never won a war?
>>13590689
Why are you responding to someone who takes anime far too seriously for his own good?
>>13590669
Short of preventing the extinction of the human race, there is no end grand enough to justify causing the amount of death and destruction that Zeon did during the One Week Battle.
>>13590689
>billions of people we claim to be liberating
You're completely misunderstanding the War For Independence.
It was NOT about becoming independent of the EF. Zeon already had that several years before the OYW. Granted, it resulted in the EF declaring trade embargoes on Zeon, but the colonies were made to be self-sufficient aside from the need for H3 from the Jupiter Fleet. The war was about making humanity independent of EARTH, not making the Sides independent of the EF government.
Secondly, the sole reason that Side 3 was never directly attacked in the One Year War was because it destroyed the EF-allied Sides that had a direct line of attack to it. Being behind the moon, Side 3 was hard to hit from earth but Sides 1, 2, 4, and 5 were close enough to attack it. What Zeon did with the Three Second Warning was eliminate the enemy's forward bases that were within attacking range of their own HQ. And it should be added that in the months prior to the outbreak of the war all those Sides except Side 6 had declared their intention to oppose Zeon if war broke out.
Not "would not side with", but "would oppose" therefore making themselves targets. Side 6 declared neutrality in the conflict and Zeon left them alone. If 1, 2, 4, and 5 had chosen to stay out of the war between Earth and Zeon they'd still be there.
>>13590711
And who gets to decide that Mr. Moral Police? It was a necessary evil for the greater good in terms of securing Zeon's victory. In destroying the Federation's power base in space swiftly.
Let's look at this another way. Propose a plan that gives the same results as the enemy sides being neutralized with ZERO chance that the Federation would return to them, while using the same amount of resources and man power as what was done.
>>13590689
>Implying the people depicted in those images weren't all Federation sympathizers.
Nice try though.
>>13590757
>And who gets to decide that Mr. Moral Police? It was a necessary evil for the greater good in terms of securing Zeon's victory. In destroying the Federation's power base in space swiftly.
God, I would have loved to see you around at the time of the Third Reich.
>Who says what the Fuhrer is doing is bad? The systematic extermination of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and Slavic people is a necessary evil for the greater good in terms of securing Germany's victory, and not at all a mad desire to adhere to some bullshit ideology.
>>13590788
Godwin's Law, now this is getting fun.I can put on my best /pol/ impersonation for you if you really want me to be the devil's advocate and defend the strawman you created. Of course we'd have to do that in /pol/ and I don't think you have the fortitude to be there for long.
>>13590818
You know, replace a few words in almost everything you spout and I think you'd do a good enough job of it on this board, thank you very much.
>>13590818
I don't really know that Godwin's Law applies to a discussion of fictional nation that was consciously and obviously modeled on WWII era Germany and Japan.
>>13590618
This, AEUG lost its original purpose the moment Blex died and Char went missing, Char should've stayed and lead the AEUG as a political group that push for goverment reformation and increase in spacenoid atonomy like Blex wanted.
>>13588996
Dozle is perfectly sane and competent. Garma is kinda competent, but naive and too reckless sometime to prove himself. Kycillia is competent, but too absorb in her own special projects sometime. Gihren is a good orator and know how to manipulate the people but is an absolutely horrible human being.
>>13590872
It is because Hitler is part of the Dark Ages that they don't care about, also you're going to have to tell me when Zeon targeted space jews.
>>13590825
Well it's a good thing I don't.
You guys all realize the discrepancy between Zeon's ideology and practice is done on purpose, right? It's like Imperial Japan claiming they were rescuing their fellow Asians from Imperial domination or Communist Poland claiming that they were working for the good of the working class while jailing union leaders.
Even Unicorn makes a good point on how the ideology of Zeonism essentially came to be seen as a sort of replacement religion for many of the rank and file Spacenoids, since it offered them the promise of security and freedom from oppression. (Despite the fact that much of that oppression was caused by the Zeon regime itself.)
>>13590936
>It is because Hitler is part of the Dark Ages that they don't care about
In universe doesn't matter. The entire Zeon aesthetic references Nazi Germany. Degwin compares Gihren to Hitler directly on screen.
>space jews
None that I know of, but they did turn entire colonies into giant gas chambers. This is a specific and deliberate holocaust reference.
>>13591198
Wrong again, they were based off Imperial Japan. Only in recent years has there been a push for more 'Nazi' aesthetics.
Also the colonies that were neutralized were done so for strategic advantage, not because the inhabitants were of a specifically ethnic group. But thank you for playing.
>>13590757
>Implying the people depicted in those images weren't all Federation sympathizers.
>The people of Mahal expelled from their homes at gunpoint were Federation sympathizers
Okay.
>>13591335
>Implying they weren't otherwise they wouldn't be held at gunpoint.
Th OYW and Zeonic movement was just one of Gihren's real estate schemes that got out of hand.
>>13591330
Zeon had influences from both Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany since 0079. The Nazi influences are actually the more blatant/superficial part of their imagery, with the "Sieg Zeon!" stuff and the outright comparison of Gihren to Hitler, while the domination of the government by the military and the general philosophies of Sideism are more Imperial Japan.
If anything, the influence that became more common in later works is Zeon being a sort of stand in for Communism, most notably with Zeon Deikun as a Lenin stand in and Zeonism as a sort of political dogma, but it also shows up in the alliances with anti-imperialist nationalist rebels in the developing world in ZZ and Unicorn.
>>13591384
Fair enough.
>>13591384
>with the "Sieg Zeon!" stuff and the outright comparison of Gihren to Hitler
Also the entire design of the Zaku II
>>13591384
Is the Federation based off America (and allies)?
>>13591479
The Federation is less World War II United States/Allies and more 1970s United States/Allies. Actually it would probably more accurate to say that the weaknesses of the Federation are Tomino's criticisms of the Japanese government of the time.
In the 1970s, figures in the LDP, the Japanese ruling party, had been discovered to be taking huge bribes from Lockheed (this was uncovered all around the world, actually) and the investigations were essentially squelched after infighting in the party. Another prime minster in the later 1970s was criticized for caving into the demands of a group of Communist terrorists, paying a large sum to free hostages. Basically, the corrupt, cowardly Federation government that seems to be willing to sell their country out to enrich themselves and is completely afraid of conflict, even when it means caving into obviously bad people, springs from Tomino's distaste for Japanese politics in the 1970s.
>>13590413
Those are just paranoid Zeke reasons for blitzkrieging the way they did. Gassing colonies and trying to drop them despite knowing how much it would fuck up the Earth is way over the line. They had declared independence from a one-world government and the response had been completely predictable on the Federation's end. If the Feddies had been dumb enough to declare war themselves, Zeon would have stomped them with their mobile suits just as they had otherwise.
>>13591479
Feddies use the Brazilian flag, so
>>13587670
>a shadowy cabal of elitists who didn't give a fuck about the spacenoids and their plights.
To be fair, they saved the Federation from being potentially ruled by lunatics, so they were on the ball.
The funniest thing about Spacenoids/Newtypes is that you can argue that they lose their souls/humanity if they live in space, because they keep flocking like moths to madmen.
>>13594101
>The funniest thing about Spacenoids/Newtypes is that you can argue that they lose their souls/humanity if they live in space, because they keep flocking like moths to madmen.
That is the true meaning of being unbound by gravity.
>>13588788
>Spacenoids hold a new rebellion every few years, and drop shit on the Earth every few weeks
If the Titans had remained in power, if the AEUG was never formed or was quickly destroyed, UC would have been a much better place later on.
>>13594101
>>13594395
>>13595089
Spacenoids are told that the reason for their unhappiness and poor material life is that they are oppressed by the Earthnoid system dedicated to their exploitation. Consequently, rather than support the leader who says we should compromise with the Earth and negotiate, they rally behind the guys who make the most insane promises of Spacenoid domination. And the more they lose, the more they want to hear their leaders promise about how they'll restore Zeon's pride and get revenge on the Earthnoids. It's a horrible cycle but they really only have themselves to blame for it.
>>13586160
Too bad G-reco basically proved him right
>>13595706
It didn't really. While the various factions may have been at peace, they generally stagnated socially, intellectually, technologically and even biologically in the case of the Venusians. While some people might consider that worth the price of peace, I doubt most would agree. Not to mention that even with that control there were still some tensions and Ameria started going to war when it finally got the chance regardless, so more than likely the system wouldn't have held much longer regardless of whether Cumpa interfered or not.
>>13595730
In the case of the Venusians, did they really stagnate biologically? They had lifespans two to three times or more as long as an average person, that guy was skin and bones but pushing 200 years old.
>>13590519
>Can't make the mother of all omelets without breaking some eggs
YOU'RE BATSHIT INSANE
>>13595896
And your soul is weighed down by gravity Feddy Scum.
>>13595910
Better to have one's soul bound by gravity than to be a fanatical psycho ready to commit genocide at the drop of a hat, i.e. the average Spacenoid.
>>13593253
>over the line
Everything Zeon did was justifiable for the purpose of bringing the the war to a swift end. Let's go through the facts.
FACT
>The Federation's economic sanctions which included at least a general trade embargo, was evidence that the if negotiations were to occur, the Federation would make demands that would weaken Side 3's position and political strength. Which in of itself would reduce a dipolmatic solution.
FACT
>The Federation's 70's Rearmament Program was solid proof that the Federation was preparing for war since why arm yourself in time of peace if not expecting to wage war in the near future? With the Federation ramping up their military strength, it was obvious a first strike would be necessary if Side 3 was to win the war.
FACT
>Sides 1, 2, 4, 5, and 7 all declared they'd oppose Side 3 if hostilities broke out. Not say they'd wouldn't support them. Oppose them. That would mean the citizens of of those Sides would not only offer their resources and man power to the Federation. But also allow the Federation to use their Sides as rally points for Federation Fleets to strike the heart of Side 3. Only Side 6 and 7 weren't blown to hell and back and that was because Side 6 declared their neutrality and Side 7 was on the opposite end of Earth.
FACT
>Operation British's objective was to destroy the Federation's GHQ and end the war, because of the Federation's damage to the colony during the operation, the Colony, depending on sources, either had it's trajectory altered or caused it to break out upon entry into the atmosphere. We will never know what happened if the colony just landed on its target.
>>13593253
(continued)
FACT
>While mobile suits did dominate the war early on, it was only because of the 3 second declaration of destruction of Federation aligned Sides that gave Zeon the early edge. Keep in mind in classic ship to ship combat, the Federation prevailed. And Zeon's war production and might was only a 30th of the Federations.
FACT
>The reason Operation Star One was successful not because of superior weapons or strategy, the reason was because the Federation fielded overwhelming forced to beat Zeon by attrition. If Zeon didn't neutralize Federation aligned Sides who's colonies would be transformed to assist in the Federation's War effort, it would only be a matter of time before the Federation fielded enough fleets to wear down Zeon even if they just used convention ships and war planes. Also if even one fleet was able to break through Zeon's defensive lines, the war would be over. Just playing it defensive would result in their defeat.
Fact
>Zeon did nothing wrongwhen it came to their tactics during the One Week Battle to bring the war to swift end and in their favor.
>>13596385
>Sides 1, 2, 4, 5, and 7 all declared they'd oppose Side 3 if hostilities broke out. Not say they'd wouldn't support them. Oppose them. That would mean the citizens of of those Sides would not only offer their resources and man power to the Federation. But also allow the Federation to use their Sides as rally points for Federation Fleets to strike the heart of Side 3. Only Side 6 and 7 weren't blown to hell and back and that was because Side 6 declared their neutrality and Side 7 was on the opposite end of Earth.
If five of the six other Sides say they're totally fine with being part of the Federation, maybe you're the asshole here.
>>13596495
Don't bother trying to talk sense with Black_Knight. He'll just say that they all deserved to die because they wouldn't join forces with a fascist dictatorship. He acts like Gihren Zabi will give him a medal for defending Zeon on the internet.
>>13590757
Zeon didn't win though.
>>13596385
>>13596400
Jesus Christ you're like a Bill O'Riely fore Zeke's holy shit thanks for the laugh.
>>13585278
you forgot:
"SPACENOID MUSTARD RACE!"
>>13596512
A Zeon Internet Defense Force really seems more like a Kycilia thing to me.
>>13596764
So he's either Gato or M'Quve? I don't know which would be worse.
>>13596385
Wait, where are you getting the fact that Sides 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7 all declared opposition to Side 3? I'm searching for that and I don't see it anywhere.
The fact that the Federation had an armament program in the 70's is also not nearly as cut and dry as you're making it. They did have one, but it followed several years in which Deikun is killed under mysterious circumstances and Degwin establishes an authoritarian rule after which the new Principality begins experimenting with the minovsky particle, commissioning warships of their own and researching new military technology like the mega particle cannon. If you see stuff like that then you're naturally going to start arming yourself too.
Mind you, they had an armament plan in the UC 0060s too, but it wasn't nearly as extensive and followed directly from Side 3 declaring independence and then basically immediately forming a national guard. The point is that the both sides were complicit in that action, and it wasn't just the Feddies going "you want independence? - time to blow some shit up".
>>13596782
I don't think Side 7 even could have declared opposition, could it? I thought its first colony was still being constructed at the beginning of the OYW.
>>13586317
>3. Hostages must learn proper table manners and take piano lessons.
underrated post
>>13596385
>Burger King is a war crimes-justifying Zekefag
unsurprising
>>13593253
>>13590489
Monthly reminder that the refutations are always full of unsourced supposition and guesswork at setting politics which could just as easily be used to make Zeon look double-bad if that was the poster's intention.
Zeon, as depicted in MSG, is unequivocably bad. They're evil and they do shitty things for no reason other than their personal lust for power. Decades worth of retcons and trying to make the Feds look bad because "muh corruption" will never amount to justifying even a fraction of Zeon's atrocities. We could have an OVA where we see, on-screen, decades worth of Federation top brass bouncing little slave children up and down on their meaty cocks before biting their heads off, and they still wouldn't be as terrible as Zeon.
Gundam really is black and white. "Shades of grey" is hipster nonsense for the "I only like mature stories for mature individuals like myself" crowd. Deikuns a shit, Zabis a shit, (Shin [Neo {Dai}]) Zeon a shit.
>>13596617
I always prefer to think of myself as the Stephen Colbert of the Feddies.
>>13596782
>>13596495
There are only 3 stances you can could take in the War of Spacenoid independence. Either A. side with Side 3 in the war against the Federation. B. Declare your neutrality and help neither Side 3 or the Federation. and C. Side with the Federation and fight against Side 3. Seeing as you wouldn't attack your allies with such vigor or attack a Side that declared their neutrality, that only means the remaining Sides opted for the Option C, which is side with the Federation. This is a given for at least Side 1 since it housed the Federation's space base capital. (I made a mistake saying it was their space GHQ somewhere, that was Luna II.) And since Side 2, 4 and 5 were also attacked, it's a given that they didn't declare their neutrality or said they'd support Side 3.
Also the military build up before the war was started almost 2 decades ago by the Federation. in 0060, right after Side 3 declared independence, the Federation initiated the 60s Armament Reinforcement Plan and converted Luna II into a military base. In Side 3 turned their national guard (which by nature is a self defense force) into a full military, which had the Federation retaliate by holding Naval Review showing off all the new ships and weapons they built. Beyond that, Side 3's first warship (The Chivvay-class), wouldn't be commissioned until 0070, which is when the Federation started to produce the Salamis and Magellan class ships under the Federation's '70s Armament Reinforcement Plan. And don't forget that the Federation managed to steal Zeon developed tech to produce and install beam cannons on their ships in less than a year after Side 3 develops them. Also remember that working prototypes of mobile suits weren't even ready until 0073 and the Musai weren't built until 0075. Well before Side 3 posed any threat other than political, the Federation was ramping up their military might.
>>13596610
Which is the point, if Zeon did win the war people would go on about how their bold and brilliant their 'controversial' tactics were to beat a force that was vastly larger than their own.
>>13596512
>>13598374
>These tears weighed down by Earth's Gravity
Not only are you the reason why Gundam will never be a success in America because of your black and white mentality, but you can't refute anything either. Go on, find me a source that says Side 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7 declared neutrality or said they'd support Side 3. Or that the objective of Operation British was to cause wide spread destruction of the Earth. Or it would tactically sound to leave entire Sides alone after removing the Federation garrisons and naively believing the populations wouldn't still side with the Feddies over Zeon.Have this non sequitur image from /v/ as a proper response to your banality.
>>13598485
>Not only are you the reason why Gundam will never be a success in America because of your black and white mentality
Because a single individual dislikes a bunch of Space Nazis?
Gundam is so black and white that it makes The Jazz Singer blush.
>>13598485
>find me a source that says Side 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7 declared neutrality or said they'd support Side 3
How about you lift a finger to do the same on your end, fuckwhistle?
>>13598475
>as the Stephen Colbert
a hack with tired shtick? yeah you got that down pat
>>13598475
> And since Side 2, 4 and 5 were also attacked, it's a given that they didn't declare their neutrality or said they'd support Side 3.
Uh, no - it isn't. They may not have declared their intentions because they may not have even been aware there was something to declare or had the time to take a stance once they realized what was coming. Assuming that they must have declared them in oppositino because Zeon attacked them is confusing cause and effect in the most egregious way. Unless you can point to a source there's no reason to assume it happened and it is just as plausible that Zeon attacked them because they were paranoid or because their plan depended on having a colony and they weren't too pushed where they got it.
> Also the military build up before the war was started almost 2 decades ago by the Federation
While the formation of a national guard is not inherently a bad thing or sign of intention to initiate conflict, neither is beefing up your defenses a little when one of your colonies has just seceded. It was a very minor armament plan and after over a decade they had done nothing and really hadn't even created a huge amount of arms - it was only when Degwin took over Zeon and stepped up Zeon's own militarization in a major way that the Federation really stepped up it's own militarization.
> Well before side 3 posed any threat other than political, the Federation was ramping up their military might
Degwin had taken over in very suspicious circumstances, installed himself as an authoritarian leader and started gearing the nation towards military armament including the research and production of new weapons and the production of new types of warships before the Federation did anything. As you yourself said, you don't start arming if you're not planning on doing something, so the Federation was just acting in kind.
My point was that both were complicit in perpetuating a cycle by the way, not that only one side or the other is to blame.
>>13598485
>Go on, find me a source that says the movies are canon
>>13598485
You really need to learn what the burden of proof actually means Black_Knight. By saying that Sides 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7 declared opposition you are making a claim and it is up to you to back it up, not anyone who questions that claim.
>>13598519
>>13598553
There are only three options the Sides can take. A, B, C. Seeing as Side 6 choose option B and weren't attacked, and Side 3 wouldn't attack Sides that choose option A. That logically would means the remaining sides choose option C. Zeon couldn't risk to deal with fence sitters if there is even a 1% chance they'd side with the Federation. Also this isn't a black and white, if you aren't with us, you're against us, since neutrality was always an option. Hell, Side 5 had two weeks to send out diplomatic wires to Side 3 saying they didn't want to be involved in the war and at least declare neutrality like Side 6. They didn't, why? That's conjecture, but regardless The Battle of Loum occurred because Zeon used it as a means to lure the Federation fleets out of hiding from Luna II. And we all know what happened there when Zeon broke the Federation's fleet lines.
There is nothing wrong with forming a national guard to protect your own nation since you can't rely on anyone else to do it. The big thing to remember it was just a national guard and not a free standing army. Even then the Federation retaliated by not only putting economic sanctions on Side 3, but going forward with the 60s Armament Reinforcement Plan in less than 2 years after Side 3 declared independence was clearly done as a show of force. Further more any claim that it was done just to just 'beef up defenses a little' goes out the window when they conducted the Navel Review in 0064 which was done specifically to show off their military might. If we follow your argument that this is an endless cycle, Zeon would have produced something to counter this. They wouldn't until the Federation starts the Federation's '70s Armament Reinforcement Plan. So not only does the Federation have a massive fleet, they're building another massive fleet when you only have a few ships commissioned
>>13598537
>>13598512
Citing of source material and the shows itself is evidence enough. Balls in your court.
>>13598620
>Citing of voices in my head and the shit I made up is evidence enough.
>>13598620
>Citing of source material and the shows itself is evidence enough. Balls in your court.
What source material? You submit nothing but rampant speculation, because 'there can only be three options', said without the slightest citation of any source at all, since as with every waking moment in your life you're too pre-occupied with stroking the dick of a fictional take on Nazi Germany and condoning war crimes.
Nut up or shut up - give us links to evidence, in published and broadcast material or otherwise, that supports your claims, or piss up a rope. Don't burble some conjecture in a bid to save face.
>>13598630
>>13598638
>Citing the material itself, bibles, the patterns of director's choices and applying basic logic isn't evidence.
All this goal post moving. Why don't you try and find this mythical forth option that would acceptable to Zeon's war effort that the Sides could take?
>>13598657
Yeah, that's all it is with you. 'Logic'. Not episode citations, not book citations, no citations of any kind except for nebulous logical deductions, because no, in fact, the show did not elucidate on the political stance of every side Zeon nuked into space dust.
How about you do away with the reaction images and actually say something of substance if you want to be taken seriously?
>>13598671
Yes, the fact that Side 6 didn't get attacked because it declared it's neutrality. Side 1 housed the Federation's space government capital, which meant it was a viable target to attack and no other Sides were mentioned siding with Side 3 or declaring their neutrality isn't evidence from the shows or books at all.
Ignore that and don't come up with anything to refute what I presented to you while moving the goal posts to the point where you'll just be demanding that you get a video recorded quote from Tomino himself saying 'Zeon did nothing wrong'.The best I can get you is him saying 'Sieg Zeon'.
I accept your surrender.
>>13598699
>Side 1 housed the Federation's space government capital, which meant it was a viable target to attack and no other Sides were mentioned siding with Side 3 or declaring their neutrality isn't evidence from the shows or books at all.
Oh gee, look, more conjecture, seeing how the show also didn't suggest that these colonies had openly sided with the Feds, either.
I'm still waiting on sources other than 'logic', do oblige me.
>Ignore that
Oh, the irony.
>>13598620
> Seeing as Side 6 choose option B and weren't attacked, and Side 3 wouldn't attack Sides that choose option A. That logically would means the remaining sides choose option C.
Highly speculative, even on it's own. It becomes much less clear when you realize that Zeon declared war and then 3 seconds later attacked the Federation and within the first week had devastated the various sides. You normally can't declare a position on something until you're aware it's happening and if you only get the warning 3 seconds ahead of shots then you've no time to take a position.
> Zeon couldn't risk to deal with fence sitters if there is even a 1% chance they'd side with the Federation.
Perhaps, but then, we've no indication that they even put out feelers to the various sides to actually get any kind of indication of who would or wouldn't side with them before declaring war. The fact that Side 6 only declared neutrality after the war started (which is actually the normal course of things if you look at the two world wars for instance) suggests that Zeon just indiscriminately attacked those sides and Side 6 just happened to be spared the initial brunt of attack.
> Also this isn't a black and white, if you aren't with us, you're against us, since neutrality was always an option.
Funny then that they never gave anyone that option until after the war started and the only one to take it was the one that just happened to not get attacked.
> Hell, Side 5 had two weeks to send out diplomatic wires to Side 3 saying they didn't want to be involved in the war and at least declare neutrality like Side 6.
Again, source? I find it dubious at best given that Side 6 only declared neutrality 8 days after the war began and Side 5 was attacked two days later by all accounts.
>>13598730
> Further more any claim that it was done just to just 'beef up defenses a little' goes out the window when they conducted the Navel Review in 0064 which was done specifically to show off their military might.
You normally don't show off your military might if you're actually spoiling for a fight, given that it gives information away that you don't need to give away. You normally do it when you're trying to avoid one by showing off how big you are and how silly it'd be to attack you. Showing off your military might isn't mutually exclusive with "just beefing up defenses as a reaction".
> If we follow your argument that this is an endless cycle, Zeon would have produced something to counter this. They wouldn't until the Federation starts the Federation's '70s Armament Reinforcement Plan.
They did though. They were the ones that started arming in the late 60s/early 70s. They did so a year or so before the Federation started it's 70's armament plan, including testing minovsky jamming, inventing the mega particle canon and commissioning the Papua class ship. All before the Feds did anything.
>>13598620
>It's too much trouble to deal with a potentially hostile civilian population, so we'll JUST KILL EVERYONE.
Do you even understand how inhuman that is? Even the actual Nazis weren't this bad, otherwise there'd be whole areas in Europe devoid of human life even today.
Hell, in-universe, even the Titans weren't this bad. At least whenever they went and gassed a colony, it was with the express purpose of using it as an example to terrorize the other colonies into submission. Hey, that's something Zeon could have done, identify one random colony and gas/nuke it in full view of the rest of the Side as an example of what happens when you resist Zeon. It's still evil, but at least its less of a magnitude of evil than immediately going 'Hey you know what, let's murder every single man, woman and child in these three Sides. That'll show the Feddies!'
You probably don't even realise that your defence of Zeon actually makes them come across as the most evil monsters ever to grace the Earth Sphere.
>>13598699
Anybody try to run you over lately?
>>13590669
Okay, got to ask: what exactly are the ends you think are worth justifying? At least communist Russia and China beefed up their countries economies and industrialization (even if they could arguably have done just as well by other means) in a huge way and made them much more relevant than they were otherwise. What ends were Zeon presenting that was worth all those eggs though?
I mean, they didn't beef up the economy or industrial capability of even their home side to any major degree that we know of. The sides were already on the same economic and industrial level as Earth, if not greater and had been all along by design. Several technologies related to the minovsky particle were pioneered there during their reign, but the mivosky reactor had been in operation for over 20 years by the time they took over and the particle itself had been observed and researched for several years prior too.
The major leader was an authoritarian madman who pushed social eugenics and used force as a first resort to most problems so he was never going to be a great peacetime leader. Nor would Delaz or Gato since, while they may not have shared his views on eugenics were both still soldiers first and leaders second. Haman was just as bad and while Char may have had some political charisma he was only interested in politics as a means to an end (a duel with Amuro) and never showed any plans for what to do post-Axis (or even really a desire to stay in politics beyond it).
Deikun was the only even remotely decent Zeon leader, and even then that's mostly because so little is known about him in the original series. All we really know is that he came up with Contolism and then died, so he's only not-objectionable because we don't know enough to object.
So what ends exactly are you defending here?
>>13585278
Sucking dick and touching kids
>>13598805
Oh, and before you point out that the Federation imposed trade restrictions on Zeon when they declared independence so they were economically inferior I'd just like to point out that the Sides were all designed to be self-sufficient and allowed free and open trade when they were part of the Federation as far as we know.
About the only good thing Zeon ever stood for was independence and they could have done a lot more using politics by getting the other sides to join them in independence than they could by using war. And as far as we know, Zeon never did try to sway any other Side to join them. No, saying that Side 6 wasn't attacked after declaring neutrality isn't a logical reason to assume that they made any effort to make them an ally prior to deciding to go to war, since Side 6 declared neutrality a week after the war began for a start.
I just don't see why you think they're worth defending so fervently.
Fucking Zeon psychopaths. Was the whole war a result of not giving them windows?
>>13596385
Do you browse /pol/ too per chance?
>>13598725
>>13598730
You know, I just realized something big, something that easily explains why Zeon considered Side 1, 2 4, 5 and 7 enemies and attacked the first 3 in the opening of the war. I Should have realized it sooner, but oh well.
To keep this fun I'll make this interactive. Pop quiz. How many Sides declared independence from the Federation? The AnswerSide 3 and Side 6Ergo, What Sides were still part of the Federation and thus fair game to be attacked by Zeon in their initial blitzkreg? If you answeredSide 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7. You're right! Give yourself a starWe can't forget that in 0067, the Federation government rejected a motion for colonial autonomy and only Side 6 stood up against the Federation. Everyone else is labeled at least collaborator tier and that's unacceptable if you want to win a war.
tl;dr version for the obtuse:Side 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7 were all part of the Federation since they never declared independence like Side 3 and 6, ergo they're legitimate targets even 3 seconds into the war.
Now that the whole 'was it justified for Zeon to attack the enemy aligned Sides?' issue is laid to rest. Let's move onto the other big complaint. The Federation's aggressive military build up in the 2 decades between Side 3's declaring independence and the War for Spacenoid Independence. The point of the Navel Review is to show off their military might and is an act of aggression in of itself. And while Side 3 was looking into R&D, the Federation then builds an even more advanced fleet in the coming decade. Also don't forget that the Federation stole Minosky tech and mega particle cannons. Also commissioning a line of transport ships is hardly an act of aggression. Now if Side 3 commissioned the Gwazine and Musais in the late 0060's and the start of the 0070's, there would be actual justification for the build, but it's not.
>>13598485
>Or that the objective of Operation British was to cause wide spread destruction of the Earth.
It doesn't matter if it was the primary goal when it was the inevitable outcome of the operation. Even if the colony hadn't broken up an impact that large would cause devastation on a global scale. In fact despite creating multiple impact zones, the break up would have reduced the overall force of the impact lowering the overall ecological damage.
>>13598828
Probably not, he's been like this since back on a little message board known as animeboards.com. Even on the Gundam.com message boards
>>13598866
> How many Sides declared independence from the Federation?
One. Side 3. Next question.
> Side 3 and Side 6
Gonna need a source on that, since I've never seen it before.
> The point of the Naval Review is to show off their military might and is an act of aggression in and of itself
Not really. It's no more an act of aggression than marches or parades.
> And while Side 3 was looking in to R&D
They weren't though, or at least, not only. They completed an entirely new type of gun and started production of it during this time frame along with a military ship. The Papua class was not a transport ship, it was a military support ship that was armed from the get go and designed to allow troop transport.
> don't forget that the Federation stole Minovsky tech and mega particle cannons
Kind of hard to steal something until someone invents it. Saying that the Feds stole them is just an effort to deflect the fact that Zeon invented military technology in the first place.
> Also commissioning a line of transport ships is hardly an act of aggression
They weren't and never were transport ships.
>>13598907
Oh wait, I see what you meant about Side 6. It had a revolution during UC0077 which Zeon sent troops to help support. And then afterwards maintained ties with the Federation for the next two years, including economic ties so that they were for all intents collaborators anyways. And yet, not attacked. At least not before they can see what's happening and go "fuck this for a game of soldiers, I'm out". Or at least out of it in public, since they were still helping in private because they were Federation sympathizers all along.
>>13598866
>Also commissioning a line of transport ships is hardly an act of aggression
An outright lie. The Papua was designed as a missile cruiser and only later converted into a transport ship once Minovsky radar jamming was found to be a thing.
>>13598805
Their end objective was the surrender of the Federation. Considering the overwhelming force they faced, they needed to take decisive action to bring them to their knees. The systematic destruction of their space power bases and the attempt to destroy their GHQ were necessary objectives to achieve that end. Yes, it would be nice if there was another way, but considering the situation, there wasn't.
As for how they'd govern in peace time. There best we have is the Perfect Victory from Gihren's Greed, and even that's extremely vauge in terms of long term governance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmRT6MwJfJ8
>>13598818
Anything can become self sufficient if enough effort is put in, that doesn't mean quality of life won't suffer greatly causing civil unreset, which was the objective of the sanctions. As for getting other Sides to declare indepedence, there isn't any source matieral to my knowledge that deal with how, and if Side 3 tried to persuade other Sides to declare independence. Or if they waited for the Sides to decide it for themselves and then assist them. But regardless,
>>13598828
It's always interesting to see what would to that board when it was allowed to evolve past the stage that moot killed /n/ and /new/. The only things of amusement that come out of those boards is Ben Garrison, their less than stellar record on predicting elections and events, and their shitposting which is on par with /sp/.
>>13598935
Citation needed. Or are you mistaking the Papua with the Public?
>>13598928
The Riah Republic maintained diplomatic ties to the Federation, but they were still independent. Also they had good ties with Side 3 as well, so allowing them to pick a side in the war was much more reasonable than wiping them out in that case.
>>13598866
Civilian population centers are not legitimate targets. You'd only have a point if Zeon had just stormed the colonies and killed/expelled the federation military garrison (if any) and government officials there.
>>13598970
>According to Gundam Century and Gundam Officials, the Papua was originally designed as a missile cruiser and later converted to a transport ship
>>13598970
> Their end objective was the surrender of the Federation
Yea, I get that - I'm not asking what their objective was, I'm asking what ends you think they were standing for that were so great. Do you really think that lack of government representation was in and of itself worth roughly 5 billion lives?
> Anything can become self sufficient if enough effort is put in, that doesn't mean quality of life won't suffer greatly causing civil unrest
The colonies were designed to be self-sufficient as a base, not as something they could do with some quality of life cuts. It's never been suggested to my knowledge that Side 3 suffered unduly from the trade sanctions, outside of what they self-imposed by gearing towards military build up.
> Citation needed
> http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php
> ctrl+f Papua
Gundam Century and Gundam Official both say it was designed primarily as a missile cruiser and then converted to a troop transport according to Ultimate Mark. And I'll take his word on what the various official Japanese Gundam books say over just about anyones.
> The Riah Republic maintained diplomatic ties to the Federation, but they were still independant
Even if you want to insist that maintaining diplomatic and economic ties while independent doesn't' make them a collaborator it introduces a whole new problem of it's own: the fact that an entire side could declare independence peacefully, without any economic blockade or consequences beyond the initial violence between the factions within the side itself. If Side 3 could do it, why couldn't Side 6? The fact that Side 6 included the Zabis from the get go by even if you want to view Deikun as peaceful would seem to be the most logical answer. The Federation knew he was trouble and attempted to nip it in the bud economically while allowing a more peaceful Side autonomy without incident. Why didn't Zeon take this route?
>>13598970
>>13598972
The thing to keep in mind is that the Zabi family is not a collection of nice people.
Degwin for instance was a Moon Mining Magnate who decided to pull a fucking JFK assassination and take the reigns himself, and pretty much the rest of his family (with the exception of Garma and possibly Dozle) was cut from the same cloth.
But then again, it's not like the Federation is a bastion of sensibility either. The kind of people who came up with the Titans and the Bunch 30 incident didn't just spring fully formed from earth after the One Year War you know.
So yeah, the Zeon warplan was basically this: Knock the Federation out of space and then take out their GHQ with a colony drop, then sue for peace.
But then Revil got loose and basically called Zeons bluff. Committing them to a landwar they physically COULD NOT win, they just did not have the manpower to ever take and hold earth, even one recovering from Operation British.
I mean christ, they hadn't even developed planes tanks or boats when they invaded Odessa.
>>13599008
>The kind of people who came up with the Titans and the Bunch 30 incident didn't just spring fully formed from earth after the One Year War you know.
While this is true, it's pretty heavily indicated that the extremity of the Titans was largely inspired by (and tolerated because of) how fucking awful Zeon was in the One Year war combined with Operation Stardust proving that the remnants were willing and able to use similar tactics.
And unlike the Zeon military elements of the EFSF went into open revolt in response to the Bunch 30 incident.
>>13598907
Navel Reviews aren't just parades to instill the population with nationalistic spirit, they're specifically done to show the military might of that country to the world, or in this case the Earth Sphere.
https://archive.org/details/gov.dod.dimoc.35246
R&D research in response to an overwhelming military build up by an enemy faction is only natural. Especially when said faction immediately steals your tech proving their are spies within your country, and if they have access to sensitive material like that, who knows where else they are?
>>13598983
How strange, when I try to confirm the validity of the sources, I get sent to... Well you try it.
http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/uc/background/glossary.html
Obviously my only source from the google is
>wiki
So let's try and find something more concret that doesn't link us to hotels.
Anyone want to give their shot at these moon runes?
>>13599005
If that's what's necessary to secure victory? Absolutely. Why don't we look at this a different way and get back to basics. You have the power to cure all the world's diseases, but the price for that power is you have to kill a single, innocent child. Could you do that?
Hardly, talk to any economist and ask them how well a nation develops if they are self sufficient, but completely isolated. If you find one that says they'll do just dandy, have someone check their head. Side 3 could survive, but their growth would be extremely limited and further isolate them. Which was the purpose of the economic sanctions. They gave them a choice of who to side with, Side 6 opted to remain neutral , and thus stay alive. Simple as that.
>>13599008
Someone finally gets it that both sides were lead by not the nicest people. But people still followed them either out of pride, duty or honor.
>I mean Christ, they hadn't even developed planes tanks or boats when they invaded Odessa.
What now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikB8B26OUpE
Also trying to address everything of value, but with 3-4 people shooting stuff off at the same time, it's easy to loose track.
>>13599036
>And unlike the Zeon military elements of the EFSF went into open revolt in response to the Bunch 30 incident.
Well, yeah, most of the people who would have argued have already been shot, or got out whilst the going was good. Most likely to Grenada or Side 6.
It's also entirely probable that Gihren and Kycillia really were just THAT good at propaganda.
Plus it's worth remembering that things were nuclear right out of the gate and escalated really fucking quickly, by the time the dust settled, you probably had a lot of people going "Wait, the fuck did we just do?"
See: Cima Girahou.
It was probably why Zeon was willing to agree to the "No WMD" rules of the Antarctica treaty, the lull in fighting after the failed second Colony Drop probably gave more than a few people time to take stock and realise things have gotten completely fucking crazy.
There were probably rumblings in the Officer Corps that the Zabi's couldn't stop or put down as easily as before that led to that.
Hell, we know there was at least one well planned attempt to assassinate Gihren in the latter stages of the war, who knows how many others there were. Then there's Casval running about saying hello with Rocket Propelled Grenades.
So I think it's safe to assume that there was a lot of finger pointing behind the scenes on some level.
Although not enough to stop Gihren from turning a colony into a giant chemical laser.
Because Gihren.
>>13599050
Well, that's some pretty hefty revisionist history bullshit going on from IGLOO there.
The Jeeps and Hoverbikes they already had, but the Magella Tanks wouldn't turn up until a little bit after Odessa because they had to be developed, same as the Dopp and Gaw.
They haven't retconned Zeon not having ANY Marine equipment until they were able to develop some in the Kyalifornia Drydocks have they?
You know what's worse than Zeeks?
Validating their existence by getting in long arguments with them.
I mean, we don't engage the Timecube guy because he's clearly nuts and wrong, so why engage the loonies here?
>>13599050
> Naval reviews aren't just parades
Actually, they often are literally just ocean parades. And even if they're done specifically to show off military might it's done to ward off attacks, not to warn that you're doing so because you're making your exact military strength apparent.
> R&D research in response to an overwhelming military build up by an enemy faction is only natural
As is building up strength when someone declares independence from you. Again, it's a cycle. And Zeon started building military strength once Degwin took over before the Federation did by all accounts, which includes more than R&D.
> Especially when said faction immediately steals your tech
Again, this is just deflecting the fact they invented and started production on tech in the first place. Which included military guns and warships.
> http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php
> ctrl+f papua
> You have the power to cure all the world's diseases, but the price for that power is you have to kill a single, innocent child. Could you do that?
False dilemma. I'd ask why the guy giving that choice is putting such a price on it. Or just offer myself instead. If the only means was doing it, though yes. There's a big difference between the two situations though, because gaining independence has never been suggested to cure any real ills. What ills do you think it would cure that would make it worth that price? The colonies weren't even suffering under the leadership of the Federation from what we see after all. And even if they were, one side was able to secure peaceful and complete independence while maintaining friendly relations.
> Hardly, talk to any economist and ask them how well a nation develops if they are self-sufficient but completely isolated
Since there are no economists in Gundam I'll got with what I see in the shows and official side stories and there nothing suggests they suffered.
>>13599111
> Side 3 could survive, but their growth would be extremely limited and further isolate them
Strange then that they could actually continue to develop technology that had already started there and research and produce entire new military weapons without issue. Gundam isn't the real world and the show itself suggests they were doing well despite the sanction, at least until they bled their own citizens dry to push a military agenda.
> Side 6 opted to remain neutral and thus they stayed alive
They didn't opt for it till after the war began and noone else was offered that choice. Even then you're still not answering the fact that said Side 6 managed to gain complete independence without economic sanctions suggesting Zeon could have as well if they'd gone about things through any route other than a military one.
> Someone finally gets it that both sides were lead by not the nicest of people
No one here has ever said otherwise. Only that Zeon's leadership and methods, at least within the One Year War is objectively worse. They're bad in different ways, but almost everyone find's Zeon way worse and the things they stood for not worth the price of what they did to gain it.
>>13599050
>Navel Review
>>13599071
>It was probably why Zeon was willing to agree to the "No WMD" rules of the Antarctica treaty
Well that and the fact that the Federation almost certainly had much greater access to nuclear weapons and the heavy elements needed to manufacture more, and couldn't really be expected not to use them to try and level the playing field when the enemy is killing the entire population of colonies and then dropping them on them.
I mean we know from the Solar System that the Federation was only holding back from using weapons of mass destruction to avoid more colony drops because as soon as they could develop one that wasn't covered by the treaty they deployed it.
>>13599090
The Feddies weren't even supposed to have MS at Odessa until that was an accepted retcon. Also Zeon seized and refitted Jukon class ships originally. Although that's more common sense to use your enemy's tech against them.
>>13599111
And how do you ward off a potential attack? Intimidate the enemy into submission. That clearly means that the intent is the threaten. And why would they purse such R&D if the Federation didn't have two massive build ups in military strength in a single decade?
Also, you linked to something that links to a site that no longer exists.
That's a lot of skirting around the question and nothing to show for it. We haven't actually seen what life was like within the colonies before or during the OWY, except for Side 6 in 0080, and in that case both the Federation and Zeon were allowed to dock there as a free zone. There are several mangas, but those focus more on life in Side 3. Quality of life and people suffering are different things and seem to also confuse scratching by with doing as well as possible. You're not going to be at your best if you're stymied economically and can't get the most of your resources. And again Side 3 didn't attack Side 6 because they were independent, and talking to both sides allowing them to make a choice. If Zeon was truly out to just kill everything like people like to try to depict here, they'd have gassed Side 6 as well. So yeah, pretty simple. If you were part of the Federation before the war started. You're fair game. If you were independent, you get a choice of picking either side or remaining neutral. Yes, the choice of gray and more gray, yet people still stood and fought for their respective sides. The reasons for that is what makes it fascinating.
>>13599101
>so why engage the loonies here?
I think it's largely an excuse to talk about Gundam.
>>13599071
>>13599071
Incorrect, the Antarctic treaty's WMD ban wasn't because Zeon thought they went to far, it was to keep the Federation from retaliating with their vast stock piles of nukes.
>>13599191
This, if Zeon attempted another colony drop, and even if they didn't succeed. The Federation would see their backs up against the wall since there would be no stopping Zeon from doing it a third time so they'd go for broke, send every ship they have with every single nuke they could load on them and just zerg rush Side 3. Even with the effectiveness of mobile suits. Even if one cruiser broke through the defensive lines and fired their payloads, the results would be catastrophic for Side 3.
So saying they wouldn't drop any more colonies would force the Federation to take their nukes off the table. And it's why they resorted to giant mirrors and laser tubes.
>>13599155
LOOK AT DEM PALE TITTIES!
>>13599199
> And how do you ward off a potential attack? Intimidate the enemy into submission.
By your own words it's a defensive gesture meant to ward off attack, not precipitate one.
> And why would they purse such R&D if the Federation didn't have two massive build ups in military strength in a single decade?
They didn't have to massive ones before Zeon responded by developing weapons, they had one moderate one culminating in a show of strength and then several years with no more build up or any aggressive moves.
>Also, you linked to something that links to a site that no longer exists.
Ultimatemark is Mark Simmons personal site and includes a detailed and sourced timeline of UC. If linking doesn't work Google it, because I assure you, the site is working. If it's still not working I can post a screencap later. Or you can just Google The named sources.
>That's a lot of skirting around the question and nothing to show for it.
Like you're avoiding talking about the fact Side 6 achieved by peaceful means all Zeon set out to do? All without any military build up or sacrifice.
> We haven't actually seen what life was like within the colonies before or during the OWY, except for Side 6 in 0080, and in that case both
We get glimpses of it during 0079 and things look as good as most any other colony.
>>13599211
> So saying they wouldn't drop any more colonies would force the Federation to take their nukes off the table. And it's why they resorted to giant mirrors and laser tubes
I love how you say that as if the Solar System was some kind of cheap trick or dirty tactic. It was a military weapon fired at a valid military target and with no civilian casualties to my knowledge. With all you talk of how Zeon's tactics were valid given their situation I'm surprised you'd begrudge the Federation's use of it.
>>13599243
Nice ignoring the second part where the intention of it is to threaten, which if you don't cause them to stand down, will only cause an escalation. We don't know what sort of ships were developed before the Salamis and Magellan (If they're out there, please post them.) I can access Marky's site, however the sites he uses as citation no longer exist and every site that's currently up just lists them as transports. Now I did upload that image to be translated to put that issue to rest. Side 6 achieved it through peaceful means because Side 3 was there to back them up. The first time anyone does things will always be the hardest, and after almost 20 years of economic isolation and intimidation through peacock displays of military might, Side 3 wasn't going to fold. As a result, the Federation opted to let Side 6 leave the Federation, but keep their tentacles firmly in the colonies, which paid off since a few years later they get reabsorbed into the Federation. Gyprs 2 looked pretty good when the citizens there were miserable and population caked the sky. Also quality of life was never really addressed more that things were clean and everyone had a buggy.
>>13599254
And I love how you're inferring that, tell me. How do you come to that conclusion from my post? Unless the objective is some poorly done attack. Which I will then congratulate you on succeeding.
Sounds like this Black_Knight guy thinks genocide and other war crimes are A-okay.
>>13599789
for his nature of thoughts, he might thinking that EF drop the whole earth to zeon's colony
>>13599254
I've been disagreeing with Black_Knight all thread, but you're putting words in his mouth. All he said was that both the colony laser and the solar system were weapons of mass destruction that were created to exploit a loophole in the Antarctic Treaty. Which is canon.
The context is that after Revil convinced the Federation not to capitulate Zeon was still able to use the threat of further war crimes to get the Federation to take their larger nuclear arsenal completely off the table.
>>13590417
It's never manicheist, that's one of the cool things about UC timeline
(and why so many people like Zeon)
>>13599789
Only if Zeon is the one doing the genocide.
>>13599335
"It's why they resorted to" gives a negative connotation, especially when paired with the belittling language of "giant mirrors and laser tubes".
>>13585278
Let's hear it in the words of a Zeon soldier himself:
"Zeon's ideals aren't worth a single porcelain vase.'
Colonel M'Quve, after refusing an order form Supreme Commander Gihren to fire missiles at Federation cities in retaliation for the Federation breaking through his lines at Odessa (Gundam Origin Vol. 8)
Leave it to a class act like M'quve to tell it like it is.
>>13600664
>high officer
>a soldier
Daily reminder that Zeon wank is just an ironic, satirical meme for the sake of finding humor in sarcastically supporting Space Nazis.
Even Greenwood's daughter, Johnny Ridden and Shin Matsunaga all settled down under the Federation's employ once the batshit crazy Zabis were finally deposed.
>>13599335
> Nice ignoring the second part where the intention of it is to threaten
I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that it's not actually an aggressive move. If you build some new warships eventually the people, politicians and officers funding and commanding them are going to want to see what their money and time built, and a naval review is a good way of doing that. Which is normally held in your own territory. If your enemies want to come and see it then you're hardly to blame for bullying them given that they had to choose to come and do so in the first place.
Even if you want to say it's aggressive it's no more aggressive than seceding from a greater polity in the first place. Sure, you might have all the good reason in the world to secede, and just as much good reason to start arming your new citizens in to a militia given you no longer have an army protecting you - but your old polity has just as much reason to look at your actions a little nervously and go "well, we'd better keep an eye on that and beef up defense a little just in case".
I'm not blaming Zeon - I'm just saying neither side is clearly in the blame. Shades of grey.
> I can access Marky's site, however the sites he uses as citation no longer exist and every site that's currently up just lists them as transports. Now I did upload that image to be translated to put that issue to rest.
He has the entirety of Gundum Century translated on his site. Some of the information is no longer accurate to official information (the Papua is listed as being developed in UC0055 not UC0069), the general overview is still held to be correct. Gundam Wikia, MAHQ etc. all list it as an armed (i.e. military) supply ship - I can't see anywhere listing it as a transport ship. Your picture labels it as a transporter class, which isn't the same thing.
>>13601390
> Side 6 achieved it through peaceful means because Side 3 was there to back them up.
Side 3 helped in the internal rebellion that decided whether they'd rebel or not, but Side 3 played no further part in how or when they gained independence. If they had, the Federation probably wouldn't have been so genial in allowing them complete independence while maintaining economic and diplomatic relations.
> The first time anyone does things will always be the hardest, and after almost 20 years of economic isolation and intimidation through peacock displays of military might, Side 3 wasn't going to fold.
So you're saying that Side 3 was justified in killing 5 billion people when a more peaceful option was available because of their pride?
> As a result, the Federation opted to let Side 6 leave the Federation, but keep their tentacles firmly in the colonies, which paid off since a few years later they get reabsorbed into the Federation.
The only thing ever clarified about their later status as far as I can tell is that they signed a security treaty with the Federation after the problems in 0080 and nothing more. If they were reabsorbed it's never stated whether it's by force or by choice.
> Gyprs 2 looked pretty good when the citizens there were miserable and population caked the sky.
I don't recall ever seeing Gryps 2 before it's a colony laser.
> Also quality of life was never really addressed more that things were clean and everyone had a buggy.
Which is some indication, especially when contrasted to what we see of Earth throughout UC, where things are often dirty and shitty, and lots of people live in bad conditions.
>>13601395
Also, I've still yet to get any kind of a handle on what you think Zeon was fighting for that was worth 5 billion lives beyond independence or why that need for independence was so immediate and overwhelming that it was worth that amount of lives given that things were never portrayed as particularly bad under the Federation beyond a lack of representation. It's worth fighting for yes, but not 5 billion lives worth fighting for. Not even close to it.
>>13596385
>Everything Zeon did was justifiable for the purpose of bringing the the war to a swift end
There wasn't a war until Zeon declared it. They didn't need to declare a ware of independence period. What you haven't addressed is how a war of independence (one that very might be completely pointless) could somehow justify the mass murder of billions of innocents.
>sanctions
The Sides were built to be self-sustaining. It wasn't like this was going to be Space Cuba.
>Feddies gearing up for war
Pretty sure the Zekes were gearing up themselves already. In any case it didn't matter much. The Federation didn't appreciate the tactical advantages conferred by mobile suits. It wouldn't have been hard to lure most of the fleet into a trap and break the Federation's back. Hell, the Feddies couldn't even keep Zeon from landing on the planet. How's that for home defense?
>Sides
Wouldn't matter for shit if the Feddie fleet couldn't fight mobile suits. The Sides didn't have their own militaries to contribute and stepping stones don't matter if you have no way to adequately fight an enemy. Zeon didn't beat the Federation by destroying the Sides; they beat them by thrashing their fleet afterward.
>Operation British
Was a gigantic point of hypocrisy. As much as Zeon preached about moving people off of Earth so that the planet could recover, they were completely willing to use the equivalent of a large meteor impact to win. We can be thankful they were aiming to destroy a single military installation. But the fact that they tried again after knowing of the potential fallout just shows they didn't give a damn.
>Mobile Suits
Zeon still got to Earth. They poured their resources into mobile suits and it paid off extremely well. The only reason they didn't win is because the Feddies got their Gundam in time and managed to slap the GMs together.
cont.
>>13596400
>>13603606
>Defensive strategy
Zeon didn't need to be defensive. Once they broke the fleet they could march right to Earth and land just like they did in the series.
>Zeon did nothing wrong
They pissed off the last side enough to help build the Mobile Suit that eventually crushed all their hopes and dreams. Repeatedly. The One Week Battle was their Pearl Harbor-tier fuck up.
>>13598475
>I always prefer to think of myself as the Stephen Colbert of the Feddies.
So far you haven't proven clever enough for that to be less than delusional.
>>13601390
>>13601395
One, it's clearly an aggressive move if your first reaction to a colony declaring independence is to dump a massive amount of money into building up your military and then parade it in front of their faces. Why wouldn't the Federation try to settle things diplomatically instead of immediately deciding to do it through indirect threat of force and intimidation through strict economic sanctions? Also it's dishonest of you to say 'armed (i.e. military) supply ship' because armed in that case can be inferred as having weapons for self defense, such as AA guns. Also what is a supply ship more than a transporter? Still waiting for someone to properly translate what I posted as well. As for Side 6, also it wasn't an internal rebellion, it was an armed revolution at Side 6 that Zeon supported, Now considering the Federation's past history in regards to how they reacted to Side 3, the Federation decided to play nice with Side 6, as a means of driving them further into Side 3's camp by taking a highly aggressive posture with them. Also, and correct me otherwise, they were annexed, by the Federation after the war. Also minor mistake on my part in regards to Gryps. The reason why the conditions were so poor on Earth was because of the colony drop.
You again fail to look at the big picture, and more importantly, you're still skirting the hypothetical question I posed to you because you know that chain would inevitability lead lead to the justification of Zeon's actions during the war.
>>13604401
> Why wouldn't the Federation try to settle things diplomatically instead of immediately deciding to do it through indirect threat of force and intimidation through strict economic sanctions?
I don't know. I can theorize that it's because of the leadership of Zeon in place at the time, but that's all it is: theory. What I do know is that just because the Federation were using intimidation doesn't mean that war is the only option out of it and that Zeon didn't begin weapon building directly or solely because of it - and that that was more because of Degwin taking power and wanting a war since he wanted to be sovereign of the Earth Sphere and not just Side 3.
> Also it's dishonest of you to say 'armed (i.e. military) supply ship' because armed in that case can be inferred as having weapons for self defense, such as AA guns.
It's never been inferred to be any kind of non-military ship though. You're supposing it is, but without any kind of proof. It's a military vessel when we see it, it's never implied to be anything else, and everything seems to indicate it was built for the military.
> Also what is a supply ship more than a transporter?
Depends on what it's transporting, which in the case of the Papua was troops, missiles and occasionally through retro-fitting Zaku Is.
> As for Side 6, also it wasn't an internal rebellion, it was an armed revolution at Side 6 that Zeon supported,
You're right. I was mis-reading part of the information. My apologies. That said, once the revolution was complete Side 3 were no longer involved and it's pretty telling that not only were they no longer involved, Side 6 wanted nothing further to do with them once they were free of the Federation. And the Federation basically left them alone after that point, at least until they rejoined the Federation for whatever reason.
>>13604466
> Now considering the Federation's past history in regards to how they reacted to Side 3, the Federation decided to play nice with Side 6, as a means of driving them further into Side 3's camp by taking a highly aggressive posture with them.
How exactly would being nice to Side 6 drive them further in to Side 3's camp? And how do you know that? All we know is that when Side 6 rebelled that they were given autonomy with no restrictions where Side 3 wasn't. And Side 3 were the nation with a leadership spoiling for a fight, where Riah didn't seem to give a shit once they were independent.
> Also, and correct me otherwise, they were annexed, by the Federation after the war.
Okay. Source?
> You again fail to look at the big picture
The big picture is that prior to the war, both Zeon and the Federation were complicit in pushing each other toward action and your words would only seem to pin any blame entirely on the Federation and paint Zeon as left with no other choice despite the fact they almost definitely had and that we know from 0079 in the case of the Zeon leadership they weren't even interested in that choice in the first place.
> you're still skirting the hypothetical question I posed to you because you know that chain would inevitability lead lead to the justification of Zeon's actions during the war.
Do what Side 6 did. Or use Side 6 as an ally to sue for peaceful means to get the economic and political embargo lifted since both sides were in talks with Side 6. It might not work, but they wouldn't know without trying and nothing indicates they ever tried. Why would they when it runs counter to their actual goals? Assuming you mean "how could they have won with the forces they had" question you constantly pose, like the war is the only option available. Which is a false dilemma.
>>13604468
War was clearly the only option in the end because not only did the Federation respond to Side 3's independence with economic sanctions (With the intention of turning them into a Space Cuba via isolation.), but immediately start military build up. And this was a decade before the Zabis took power. That doesn't change the fact that a supply ship is a transport and not a ship of war, and you can't win a war with transporters alone, especially in ship to ship combat which was originally the norm. Why would Side 3 continue to meddle in the affairs of Side 6 after they gain their independence? That would be detrimental in the long term if the war didn't break out because other Sides would just assume they'd be puppet states of Side 3 if the also declared independence from the Federation. Also the Federation didn't leave them alone, this was prove enough in War in the Pocket where they had a secret military base in at least on of the colonies, which was a violation of the Antarctic Treaty, which in term nullified their neutrality status and opened them up for nuclear attack. I misspoke there, I mean the opposite where if the Federation aggressively resisted it would strengthen the alliance between Side 3 and 6 more. Know I saw it else where, outside the wiki, currently looking for it. But everywhere you see it mentioned, it uses terms like 'annexed' or 'reabsorbed' which is quite different from 're-joined'. This wasn't 2 to tango, it was the Federation pushing the envelope right off the batt, and Side 3 being forced to respond. How would you run a colony that declared its independence from it's mother country and suddenly you're economically isolated because of actions of the mother country while at the same time they start a military build up? To pursue a diplomatic solution then would be see as extreme weakness and they'd demand nothing less than you to be reannexed. I'm talking about the Child hypothetical.
Regardless, all your sources have done is strength the argument that Side 3 was completely justified in their own military build up because of the Federation's initial aggression in response to Side 3 declaring independence. Also, using your source, the Federation had no intention of dealing with Side 3 or the colonies in good faith.
>U.C. 0067 - The Federation government rejects a motion for colonial autonomy.
Adding to the fact that you gave up on trying to argue that there would be another way, or it was wrong for Zeon to attack Side 1, 2, 4 during the One Week Battle due to the necessity of eliminating any Federation stronghold that could pose a threat to Side 3. With the other benefit being the psychological and physiological demoralization the Federation, I think I'm in pretty good shape.
Yeah, Zeon did the lose the war, but that's all hind sight as to what Zeon could have done to turn the tide or secure victory. The build up and early tactics however, shouldn't be questioned.
>>13604624
> War was clearly the only option in the end because not only did the Federation respond to Side 3's independence with economic sanctions (With the intention of turning them into a Space Cuba via isolation.), but immediately start military build up.
War was very clearly not the only option because Side 6 was able to use diplomacy to avoid a war two years before Zeon started one. Which would give Zeon plenty of time to realize it and try something new if they had ever been interested in doing so. Zeon didn't and the Federation had been engaging in sanctions with them as well as saber rattling, but so what? Just because someone is posturing and being an ass doesn't mean you can't settle things peacefully despite it.
> And this was a decade before the Zabis took power.
Degwin was always one of the major figures of the Zeon leadership, second only to Deikun. Even if we want to assume that Deikun was a kindly and benevolent figure in the original series (and I'd find that more interesting personally), Degwin was spoiling for a fight all along.
> That doesn't change the fact that a supply ship is a transport
And that doesn't change that every source available lists the Papua as originally meant to be a missile cruiser and later changed in to a troop transport. A missile cruiser doesn't come off as any kind of civilian vessel.
> Why would Side 3 continue to meddle in the affairs of Side 6 after they gain their independence?
If you help someone achieve independence you normally become an ally, at least for a short while afterwards. Riah never allied with Zeon even after needing their help to achieve independence - which says there was something about them they didn't like.
> That would be detrimental in the long term if the war didn't break out because other Sides would just assume they'd be puppet states of Side 3
Not really.
>>13608657
> Also the Federation didn't leave them alone, this was prove enough in War in the Pocket where they had a secret military base in at least on of the colonies, which was a violation of the Antarctic Treaty
Riah maintained diplomatic ties with the Federation and it's never suggested that base was forced on them by the Federation. It's just as likely to have been mutually agreed to allow it.
> I misspoke there, I mean the opposite where if the Federation aggressively resisted it would strengthen the alliance between Side 3 and 6 more.
Yes, and Side 3 could have taken advantage of that diplomatically to help not only achieve economic equality but to help other sides achieve independence if they had wanted to too.
> But everywhere you see it mentioned, it uses terms like 'annexed' or 'reabsorbed' which is quite different from 're-joined'.
So what? Everywhere listed Turn-A and Turn-X as not being able to use the Moonlight Butterfly by choice and only in each other's company for a long time - and in fact the Wikia still does - but one look at the final few episodes will tell you that's bullshit.
> This wasn't 2 to tango, it was the Federation pushing the envelope right off the bat, and Side 3 being forced to respond.
Again - the Federation built up it's forces, showed them off and then did nothing with them for the best part of 8 years. If you were planning on doing anything truly aggressive with them in that time then you'd already have done it within two or three years, since otherwise you'd lose momentum. In that time Degwin takes over and begins his own armament program. Which the Federation responds to. Both sides are guilty, because we know from the show Degwin and his family wanted a war and they weren't just responding to the Federation's armament drive or seeing war as an unavoidable inevitability they had to be ready for.
>>13608664
> How would you run a colony that declared its independence from it's mother country and suddenly you're economically isolated because of actions of the mother country while at the same time they start a military build up?
The economic sanctions didn't start for a year, the military build up for two years. And two years after that it would have become obvious that the military build up was coming to nothing more than saber rattling to ward off attack, not precipitate it. So in those first two years you could have been doing some political work to gain allies even before the Federation started getting aggressive. There's also the fact that your colony doesn't actually need anything besides maybe some luxury goods that Earth or the other colonies produce, so that while it's no doubt a hassle to be isolated, it's not actually the end of the world.
> To pursue a diplomatic solution then would be see as extreme weakness
Actually, no - it wouldn't. The Federation has already shown weakness by allowing Riah to secede with no concessions. They're the ones that look weak going in to it. Zeon could walk in to talks with the Federation using Riah as neutral ground with the expectation of equal treatment and leave if they felt the Federation were looking down on them, maintaining face in doing so. They never tried though.
> and they'd demand nothing less than you to be reannexed.
Supposition, given that they didn't demand any such thing of Riah themselves.
>>13608669
> All your sources have done is strengthen the argument that Side 3 was completely justified in their own military build up
Of course it has - in your eyes. I could say anything at all and you'd say the same thing. I don't think I've ever seen you admit you were wrong or even say anything bad about Zeon. Which makes it all the more bizarre that you started this line of conversation saying that it was about shades of grey on the part of both sides. So where is the grey on the part of Zeon? Reading your arguments one wouldn't be faulted for believing Zeon never did anything wrong and were a group of poor disenfranchised slaves who never hurt a fly (they didn't have to).
Actually, another thing I wanted to ask you: do you believe Degwin and Gihren ever wanted anything other than a war with the Federation and to become the heads of a new Federation run by them instead? I mean the show outright says that Gihren wanted to massively reduce the population of the world by war to keep it under his personal control - which is why I find it so puzzling that you'd try and act like Zeon never had another choice and it was all just reaction to the Federation's bullying.
> the Federation had no intention of dealing with Side 3 or the colonies in good faith
And yet 10 years later that's exactly what they did with Riah. They gave them exactly that autonomy you just said they'd never give the colonies.
>>13608672
> you gave up on trying to argue that there would be another way
I've been arguing for diplomacy instead of war as a means to Zeon's ends all along.
> or it was wrong for Zeon to attack Side 1, 2, 4 during the One Week Battle due to the necessity of eliminating any Federation stronghold
I still think that was dumb and that even if they were insistent on a war that they'd have been better off doing what most armies do just before or after declaring war and feeling out for allies in the surrounding area before making any major attacks. You don't think it would have worked out. Well, so what? Neither did what they actually went with. So prove to me that using diplomacy and gathering colonial allies from the other sides wouldn't have worked better than the first strike tactic they used. You can't. I can't prove it'd work better either - but the point is that you're insisting it's the only possible method that was available and they had no choice, but there's really no reason to say that. They didn't go with anything else, but that doesn't mean nothing else was available.
> I think I'm in pretty good shape.
Well yea, of course you do. Look at your user name.
> The build up and early tactics however shouldn't be questioned.
Military history and tactics can always be questioned to see if any other options were available.
>>13608678
>>13608678
>Zeon has ideals worth dying for
>The Federation has... they just don't like people oppsoing them
>>13611459
Federation has wealth to fight for. Like englishmen.
>>13611465
So basically anyone who supports the Federation on /m/ who aren't part of the wealthy elite are the equivalent of the poor or working class who vote their economic interest with the Republican party.
>>13611468
Yes.
>>13611459
The Federation has "not being genocidal mad men" going for them.*
*The Titans were an exception, but they were proven right by history.
>>13611459
>Zeon has ideals worth dying for
More like Zeon are full of dupes or idiots who fall for nice sounding crap while they're leaders are rich, elitist assholes no different from the Feddie leaders. Well, actually, they are different in one respect; they tend to also be insane and/or genocidal too.
>The Federation has... they just don't like Crazy Genocidal Spacenoids trying to kill them, their families and friends every few years.
FTFY
>>13611459
The Federation has stability and safety worth fighting for. They also have their own ideals: that society should be unified for the preservation of peace and the good of all. It might not be run to those ideals at all times, but they do actual hold that ideal regardless. Which is somewhat mutually exclusive with Zeon's ideals, dependent on whether they're speaking more to Side-ism or Contolism.
Also, once the One Week War was done the Federation was offering the chance to strike back at the monsters who had fucked up the home Sides of a lot of people. Even by the time the 3 Second Warning was done they were offering that to some folks. Revenge might not be the most noble reason to sign up, but it's a common one regardless.
And for any folks sitting on the sidelines, they're more likely to sign up with the people defending the status quo that has served well for 80 years than with the people who've just killed 3 billion plus.
>>13585278
Space STRONG
Zabi POWERFUL
makes up like 90% of the rest.
>>13611459
The Principality had no real ideals. It's all just propaganda spread by rich elitists in order to trick gullible optimists into becoming tools of death and destruction. Origin made it abundantly clear that until the Zabis started stirring shit up, the colonies were actually a pretty tranquil and decent place to live.
The Feddies probably would've even been open to negotiation had Deikun not been assassinated, but his genuine ideals lived on only through his misguided son whose antagonism towards the Feddies only made their views that much more entrenched.
The sad fact is that the Titans were right and the spacenoids had it coming. They were the ones who turned an ideological dispute into full on genocide.
Zeeks doomed itself the moment they decided to work against the Feddies rather than with them, even though there were Feddie troops frequenting their bars and seamlessly integrating into their societies.
The sheer wrongheadedness that followed was all just a tragic commentary on the susceptibility of yuppie sheeple when it comes to liberal ideologues who rant on about "muh oppression" because their literal mansions weren't as large or lavish as the ones on Earth.
>>13611459
Yes, ideals worth dying for, like killing millions to obtain independence you already had.
>>13613793
They were occupied by the Federation, akin to America occupying foreign countries even during peacetime.
Regardless, living in peace and luxury must've been a terrible ordeal for them.
>>13613802
I don't think you can really call it occupying when the Federation paid for and constructed the colonies. They are in a very real sense theirs. The problem isn't that they were ruling the colonies, it was that they weren't allowing colonial citizens the opportunity to become part of the government.
>>13613802
If you call an embargo an 'occupation', yeah.
And Zeeks certainly weren't starving because of it.
>>13613957
>they weren't allowing colonial citizens the opportunity to become part of the government.
They were right, you know.
Spacenoids were fucking crazy.
>>13613957
>The problem isn't that they were ruling the colonies, it was that they weren't allowing colonial citizens the opportunity to become part of the government.
>90% of Spacenoid governments are some form of batshit insane dictatorship
It's not like Spacenoids are any better in that respect.
>>13614733
>>13614789
The funny thing about Black_Knight's insistence that killing 5 billion people was worth it for independence is I wonder what he thinks would happen if they won? I mean, if they won and we take it they won using the first strike so the Federation gives in and cedes space to the Spacenoids then you have one family in control of all space. And you still have a situation where no Spacenoids actually have a say in their government and no way to do so because it's a monarchy.
So in twenty or thirty years time the same people he said were perfectly justified in killing billions of people to achieve independence, because any price is worth that ideal would have to stage another revolution to gain any kind of control over their government because they didn't actually get any control in the first place.
And it only becomes worse if you hypothesize about what would happen if they'd won the entire One Year War and taken control of Earth too. Regardless of whether the Zabis decided to rule from Side 3 or Earth, they'd now be in control of the entire Earthsphere and either Earthnoids or Spacenoids would be entirely removed from the people making decisions as well as having no hope of having a say in the running of their government, because again, monarchy. So if Zeon had actually won the entire war would Earthnoids be dropping the Moon on Side 3 in UC0092 for muh ideals?
And what did anyone besides the Zabis gain for those 5 billion dead now that Zeon has won? Because we know Gihren is never going to be a good peacetime leader. No, Gihren's Greed perfect ending doesn't count as any kind of indication and the name ("Perfect") alone should give you some sense of why: because it's fan-fiction tier character worship for the sake of it rather than a reasonable expectation using the character as depicted in the animation.
>>13590420
This.
fucking feddi / earthling scum will never understand.
