So after all, VOTOM's should be classified as mecha or exo-suit?
Mecha, obviously. The cockpit doesn't have to be in the torso for it to be a giant robot.
>>13577969
Its movements don't correlate to that of the operator, by definition it can't be an exosuit. Chirico raising his arm doesn't make his Scopedog do the same, it isn't an exosuit.
>>13577969
ATs are neither. they are sentient bio organic robots that are hollow meaning a person can sit inside.
>>13577969
Pilot controlled high mobility explosive device.
>>13577969
I always use the same method to figure it out.
To pilot it, does he drive it or does he wear it?
He drives it. So it's a mech.
Oh, and
>VOTOM's
The S is part of the acronym, silly. Vertical One-man Tank for Offense & ManeuverS.
Exoskeleton?
>>13578100
Nope, mecha:)
>>13578190
Yeah, ultra-compact
>>13577969
Mecha.
Since one has to ride it rather than wear it.
Did you know the first Kuratas was actually just a replica Scopedog? There exists a replica Scopedog, right now, somewhere in Japan.
http://www.theverge.com/2012/12/3/3722592/kuratas-robot-iron-giant-four-ton-mech
>>13580661
>Did you know the first Kuratas was actually just a replica Scopedog?
You mean it isn't one now?
>>13580671
It's not got the right legs. I was amazed at how close the specifications were to each other.
>>13580661
Did he actually complete one or was that just his original intent? Article is kinda vague.
>>13580723
It's basically a Scopedog after that specific point in any older Armored Core game where you just say 'fuck aesthetics' and give in to the frustrating fact that wheeled quadlegs are just better stat-wise.
>>13578194
>>13577969
Dang I forgot how comfy it looks to pilot a scopedog. Until y'know, it blows up from being poked.
>>13578100
>Skeleton breaking an accordion.
>>13577969
Mini Mecha
And by all points, the perfect size for one.
>>13582750
"Have been on my mother-in-law's funeral. We broke two accordions"
>>13582659
Or it gets hit in the wrong places, which will also get you killed even before the machine blows up.
Mecha. I feel that for something to be called an exoskeleton, it must assist the user in whatever movements he is performing, i,e it enhances the users own body, not fully replaces it. If a user is just sitting still while piloting, it's a mecha.
My own classification logic make :
AT are mechs
Landmate mechs
Escaflowne a exoskeleton
Iron Man suit is actually a mech
the MADOX-01 a exoskeleton
Edge of Tomorow's suit exoskeleton
Matrix APU exoskeleton
Jeager mechs
Any artificial muscle suit... exoskeleton
Basically my distinction come from whether or not it can achieve locomotion without a pilot inboard.
Electronic-driven mechs can have auto-pilot or remote control, but if for whatever reason a mechs rely on the pilot physiology to stand/operate, it's an exoskeleton, or a power-armor as you prefer that distinction isn't really important
>>13577982
The problem with that logic is that even if you wore it like clothes, a rigid armor joint (like current exo like HALL or XOS) are not actually following our human, internal joint.
As a result even Iron-Man suit is actually a waldoo controlled from electronic reading of the position of your arms. A true exoskeleton require your own force motive or at least must articulate over you, not be a self-contained robot with a crew.
> in b4 obvious meme
>>13585998
By the same virtue the wear's range of motion is also limited.
>>13585998
That makes zero sense and is more to do with the controls than anything to do with the armor. The distinction is in usage. Not specific technical details. If you wear it like motorized body armor its an exoskeleton. If you pilot it, its mecha. Including mobile trace and mechanical haptics (pleb rim).
>>13586171
The problem is that if you do not take those details into there can be no difference between piloting it and wearing it.
Take Iron Man : to do its stuff without killing the user it mean that the user is not participating in strength or speed to the armor performance and is also completely shielded from acceleration force and impact.
This is not the human operator carrying/wearing the armor; its the armor ...carrying its pilot. Iron-man suit is piloted ! not worn !
The cockpit is just tiny and formfitting.
That's why an exoskeleton/power-armor must depend mechanically on its user.'s strength or at least body.
>>13577969
Hey, where'd you get that image? Is it from an artbook? If so, you wouldn't happen to have the rest of it, would you?
>>13585928
Your classification is a bit too complicated for my taste.
As far as I'm concerned, mechs are piloted, ridden or driven, power armor and exosuits are worn.
>>13588246
Your choice, but we get those topic because sometime there's things you can't classify as worn or piloted without going into the details about what it mean.
Take the Landmate, the madox-01 or Iron-man suit. None can't truly be power armor, yet lot of people wouldn't see them as cockpit (looking up the origin of the words proved informative).
>>13588314
Er, the Madox-01 is power armour. It's pretty much one of the closest things to MI armour in an anime outside of Starship Troopers OVA.
>>13577969
Fun Fact: The term "VOTOMS" is only used once in the entire franchise. Every other time they are referred to as ATs.
>>13588325
That's the problem, it LOOK like a power armor, but at no point the users strength is needed, the suit is too heavy for that. We even get sequences where it can move by itself or its purely mechanical hands.
So it's actually a very very small mech controlled by a form-fitting cockpit.
You could make its arms and legs longer, and give it a bigger backpack, it wouldn't change our problem : it can't be a power armor.
>>13587100
>That's why an exoskeleton/power-armor must depend mechanically on its user.'s strength or at least body.
Completely wrong.
>>13588353
>but at no point the users strength is needed
You make less and less sense with each post. No where did anyone say that power armor needs the users strength is needed, just the movement.
>So it's actually a very very small mech controlled by a form-fitting cockpit.
>form-fitting cockpit
So you admit it's power armor then? Good.
>>13588359
bullshit, if a form fitting cockpit was all that was needed, then a fucking guymelef would be power armor
>>13588359
You are the one who don't understand how naive your view is.
Following your logic a JEAGER is a power-armor because it follow the movement of its user (not realizing that the interface can't make the distinction).
> So you admit it's power armor then? Good.
They don't teach reading comprehension at school anymore or what ?
What I'm saying is that an operator or suit like Iron-man or the Madox-01 are NOT WEARING those armor, because if they did it would mean being jellified by the impact inflicted on them or squished by the strength required to work.
That's why the Madox-01 and the Iron-man should be considered as autonomous walking vehicle (or mech) if we really wanted to use the right words.
![6a0120a721c2d7970b0120a93d2893970b-pi[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ahvixT3.jpg "6a0120a721c2d7970b0120a93d2893970b-pi[1].jpg")
>>13580752
You tell me
>>13588603
So it's only powered armor if it's not actually powered?
That's just called armor, dude.
>>13577982
G Gundam confirmed for power armor
>>13577986
That's Brain Powerd
>>13588603
I think what you fail to realize is that in designs like Iron Man's suit the human factor is a limitation, while also providing 1:1 control inputs.
In a mech with some sort of internal frame you're not getting 1:1 control, and the physiological capabilities of the pilot are a non-issue beyond their ability to actually endure long-term control.
That's the big difference between power armor and a mech. Mechs are piloted, and power armor is worn and controlled like an extension of your own body. A suit of power armor is heavily limited by the capabilities of the race of its pilot, and especially in regards to the capabilities of their limbs.
>>13588674
This guy gets it.
>>13587100
You're being straight up autistic. If Iron Man armor isn't worn then neither are my boxers. That's an idiotic distinction that you're not even right about in your own logic.
IMO power armors is something that "fits' the user's body i.e. wears it like a cloth.
When stuff becomes vehicular and larger than user's body, it's fall under mecha teritory.
>>13588717 >>13588674
Woah, you are being too accurate to be stupid yet too far from the point to be misunderstanding.
So nice try, I give you 3/10, the dumb samefag was a dead-giveaway.
>>13588865
Couldn't distinguish samefags properly.
Couldn't come up with a cohesive counterpoint.
Argued about something stupid that's not a matter of opinion in the first place.
Made everybody stupider by posting.
Solid 0/10. No effort was put in, and everybody suffered from your stupidity.
Another day, another thread.
Got derailed on /m/.
Thus, /m/'s suffering continues.
>>13588824
But where do you draw the line, and why ?
Exoskeleton like Berkeley's HULC is attached directly on the body of the user and only give more strength if you can position your legs right.
As soon as you want something that can replace every muscle of the human body, it is already a vehicle, no matter how small
just look at Iron-man armor's moving by themselves.
>>13588314
>madox-01 or Iron-man suit. None can't truly be power armor
How the fuck can you say that?
Motherfucker, the definition of power armor is armor that's powered.
>>13577969
ATs are mecha.Exo-suits and powered armor are also mecha.
>>13589351 >>13589336
Because power-armor is defined as being worn and madox and Iron-man suit are not ? because they are clearly shown as autonomous mech ?
>>13589357
Admittedly, but it doesn't answer the original query.
>>13588953
Putting autopilot on your power armor does not make it not power armor.
In fact if you can't add such functionality trivially via programming alone your power armor is missing a large number of key features.
>>13590078
Iron Man suits are primarily intended to be worn, and employed as such. Just be fucking cause it can do shit on its own (wow so fucking hard when all the shit you need to do that is ALREADY IN THE SUIT) does not invalidate intended doctrine and roll.
Not to mention it is repeatedly and canonically refered to as A SUIT.
>>13590078
>Because power-armor is defined as being worn and madox and Iron-man suit are not ?
Holy shit the amount of retardation is astounding. It's like arguing with a marxist.
>>13588953
>comparing an early prototype to an advanced finished product.
4chan is 18+ kiddo
>>13590303
We all know the prototype always kicks final version ass.
>>13590262
You miss the point, the AI being able to control the "suit" fully is only a hint that a machine isn't an exoskeleton anymore but a full fledged mechs. Even without AI, theres a point were Exoskeleton stop being so and become Mechs.
Like many you are focusing on size but it is has nothing to do with the problem.
I repeat it : assuming it existed Tony Stark wouldn't be wearing his "suit" more than piloting it, he could as well be a passenger inside.
THAT is what make it different from an exoskeleton. An external skeleton can still be powered but not enough to operate by itself, see the Berkeley HULC.
If you keep dismissing subtle but critical differences like that you simply can't understand technology.
>>13590286
And since when do Hollywood/author always check their stuff ?
We are talking of the sort of people who call the Prawn-mech from District 9 "exosuit", the APU from Matrix is called a battlesuit, and they barely danced around with Avatar's AMP where its only compared to exoskeleton as a distant descendant.
If they had it right we wouldn't be discussing this.
Reminder that according to this retard, the power armour from Starship Troopers isn't power armour.
>>13588615
I want this.
>>13588865
unf GUGES:D all day erry day
![[Henshin]_Oira_Uchuu_no_Tankoufu_01_(x264_640x480_AC3).mkv_snapshot_20.09_[2015.12.06_20.59.42].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Epejrwz.jpg "[Henshin]_Oira_Uchuu_no_Tankoufu_01_(x264_640x480_AC3).mkv_snapshot_20.09_[2015.12.06_20.59.42].jpg")
>>13588953
To me, as long as it augments muscular movements of the user, an assistant to manual tasks.
When you add more features like automated parts, controllable limbs that user controls operates like driving a car, then it becomes mecha.
Well, these are just my thoughts. Only time will tell the accurate criteria.(I hope it dosen't mudle up into other topics like what is human and sentinant oraganism )
>>13577969
What does this qualify, /m/?tfw no ep 3
>>13593454
You know, your wording match what I'm saying exactly, you are likely just sceptically because its hard to accept that size don't actually matter.
> augments muscular movements
As in giving more power to a move that also use your own muscles
> like automated parts, controllable limbs that user controls operates like driving a car, then it becomes mecha.
The thing is : You need automation/macro anyway, If a said "suit" read your intent, react as to completely negate any need for your own force... and doesn't need your body to support itself (and support you), HOW is that any different from operating a Mech except that your control sensor are shaped like an arm ?
We can come up with plenty of hypothetical example, take MGS-4 Laughing Octopus, how it is different from piloting a open-cockpit tentacle-mech except that there is no seat ?
People have to judge beyond appearance.
Like this troll >>13591650, why would it matter if it turn out the (pictured) "power armor" from Starship Troopers is actually a misnamed mech ? Does it offend your religion ?
So far, the description of the original Starship Trooper actually suit fit that of a MECHS, not my fault the author spent more time on its military fantasy.
In any case : myself I don't have any problems categorizing ANY design between Mech or Powered Exoskeleton (assuming we agree on its specs)
Let's try an extreme case study : Laughing Octopus
It start being among Mech/Powered-exoskeleton in the first place because it is a system that it achieve/augment limbed locomotion.
It is meant to augment the ability of its user, but it doesn't just amplify the users musculature, it can but it can also replace it entirely. It doesn't need the user body or force to achieve that.
Assuming the skinsuit as a part of the system don't change that. The defining feature of the exoskeleton/mech part is the use of machinery for its motive power first. The rest is optional.
Given all this, to me it is a MECH.
>>13588353
By that logic the only power armor ever is plate mail because any suit that enhances a human to the degree most things considered power armor are are way too heavy to be moved by human strength alone.
>>13593840
>Accuses me of being a troll
>States that the very origin of power armour as a popular concept is not power armour.
>>13593907
You exaggerate, if there is apparently more mech it's only because everybody underestimate the complexity of becoming a technological god without needing to replace entirely our body.
BUT take the "Muscle-Suit" like Crysis nanosuit.
We can't say whether or not you can achieve all its feats if it stay an exoskeleton (as it is obviously possible to build muscle-mech)
But, the idea of increasing our body speed/force with a suit that use your already existing skeleton, just supplementing it with external part outside (that is supported by our body) can make one a powered exoskeleton.
Let's take it as a case study : Crysis Nanosuit
- it's a technology that will give limbed locomotion (or force) as a primary goal.
Several possibility
1) there is no solid link between any added part except that of the user body
it's not just a suit because it's use result in limb-assisted amplification, it make it a powered exoskeleton
2) there is solid links between added parts, but not enough to achieve limbed locomotion if the operator didn't support it.
same, but more easily recognizable as one
3) it can achieve limbed locomotion even if the user was absent or was some sort of amorphous mass that cannot "wear" the system.
Well, there it would be a muscle mecha. (I'll post an example after)
ps : I'm NOT saying exoskeleton can only be muscle suit, see HULC
>>13594193
Oh sorry, maybe you truly can't help looking like an abrasive and unconstructive idiot.
You might simply be honestly wrong, but unable of explaining what you don't understand, my bad.
So I can help solving your ignorance at least.
Consider the following :
It is entirely possible that Heinlein description is misinterpreted as a power armor by lack of knowledge, from its author, or the people reading him. Just like, you know, some people believe that spaceship getting out of atmosphere is the only requirement to achieve orbit.
They are wrong, but still believe to be right. And sometime groups of person misuse words together, even if better analysis using their very language and sense of logic say they are using a therm wrongly.
Exo-suit and power(ed) armor are subcategories of mecha.
An exo-suit is a kind of mech. Power(ed) armor is a kind of mech.
It's all mecha.
Case study : "HUSK"
- It achieve limbed locomotion/force qualifying it as mech or powered exoskeleton
- Using its own skeleton it can stand.
- And (from what I can see) using its own muscle/energy it could move its limbs by itself
So far, the only way to disqualify it as a mech would be something very tricky in its biomechanical nature.
>>13594372
I think "Husk" is Heroman.
I think OP's definition of exosuit/powerarmor is very, VERY specific: in his mind, an exosuit/powerarmor adds to or multiplies the wearer's strength. According to OP, anything which uses its pilot's movements solely for control is a mech. Okay.
I think almost nobody else uses this incredibly strict, rigid set of parameters for their definition of mecha, powered armor, etc. And this bothers him for some reason.
He's just rubbing his autism all over the place. If he wants to define things that way, he can. If he wants to tell us we're all wrong, he can, but that doesn't make him right.
>I define vegetables as anything green.
>Green Honeycreepers are green, so they're vegetables.
>If you disagree with me on this point you're wrong.
Case study : Trying to fuck up my own logic
Imagine an HULC suit, with legs that don't have enough actuator to do all the walking act by themselves, just give more strength to the users and power assuming he can position them right.
But with a top part that are mechanical limbs somehow fully capable of that (in strength and geometry).
It's close to >>13593893 "Laughing Octopus" except that in usual operation it is lifted by a powered-exoskeleton.
At first sight it would mean that if you are walking on your upper arm/tentacle, you are a mech, but not if you are walking on your less evolved legs part.
Well, a mech can stay a mech even if it fly, right ? So this would be alternative form of locomotion.
Guess by my standard such suit would also be a mech, a strange one, probably tricky if not dangerous to pilot.
Still, the MECHA genre is vast.
- Spaceship are /m/, but not mechs
- Spaceship can have robotic arms, but it shouldn't count if it doesn't have the strength to move its mass against anything more massive than itself.
- Submarine are /m/ too, and swimming with robotic arms would be a form of locomotion, but it would be no different from flying in gas. I would say Buoyancy disqualify them from being mech.
- heavier than air, Aircraft with flapping wing, Ornithopter are /m/, you could walk upon your folded wings... and if you look at Spider-mech, dynamic balance isn't a requirement. I guess Ornithopter CAN be a subcategory of mechs that achieve flight through flapping.
Now that is strange.
You tell me if you see a flaw in the logic.
>>13594460
1) I'm not OP
2) He specifically asked for a classification, I explain mine
3) I don't mind using broad appellation to facilitate conversation, assuming the person is clever enough to recognize it as such.
4) You analogy logic is fallacious, I did not redefined any terms and I never mixed mutually exclusive concept, Mechs is an accepted terms, it is just badly defined.
5) Ultimately we know words are made up by cultures and populations. Maybe someday the concept of walking vehicle could be somehow called Green-Honeycreepers (as the bird will probably be extinct), but it wouldn't change the logic.
6) You are using autist wrong
7) Many great person displayed autistic tendency, and many wish they could be like them.
8) <- this is a smiley face
>>13594372
Husk is literally an ape`s corpse with head removed. Not exactly what you would call a "mecha". "Biomecha", may be.
>>13577969
This thread turned into post-modern analysis of mecha and power armor.
FOR FUCK'S SAKE IT'S A MECH
HE'S SITTING THE FUCK DOWN
DO YOU HAVE A LOT OF FUCKING CHAIRS IN YOUR POWER ARMOR?
GO ARGUE ABOUT ARMSLAVES, ATs AREN'T EVEN A QUESTION
>>13584159
This.
>And by all points, the perfect size for one.
Mah nigga. The fuckhuge mechs seem like a pain in the ass to make, and ultimately not that useful outside of a super robot universe.
Knightmare Frames, ATs... those are a nice manageable size.
>>13596524
A biomecha would still be a mech. As long as its only motive force and mindless automation they aren't fundamentally different.
The tricky bit that will move HUSK out of the picture is that its control&User-Interface system is self-improving... which as Narration goes mean it will become sentient in the plot.
Leading to an interesting question : Would the presence of an inboard AI change a classification as mecha ?
A "weak-AI" (non-sentient) is usually just a fancy UI.
But a "Strong-AI" (equal to mankind) could make a mechs its body, or a vehicle he copilot with human, or a remote drone. (strong AI are tricky plot-device to use)
>>13596651
So... was it interesting ?
Reminder that FMP's AS were originally described as 8m tall
And that's from Gasaraki, mech obviously.
Powered by technology and mystical flesh.
does a mech always have to have a human inside? or can it be remotely operated and stil called a mecha?
noob btw
>>13577969
Man, I knew AT's had cramped cockpits but jeez.
>>13599052
Coffins are cheap and mass produced ,anon.
>>13598986
Mecha is about metal stuff. This means a lot of arguing but generally it doesn't mean there's a big need for pilots.
Tetsujin 28 was remote controlled, Giant Robo was full auto. Now go watch some anime. Don't bother making a rec thread, just check the archive or desustorage.
>>13599832
>Mecha is about metal stuff.
Calcium is metal in periodic table.
This means Skeletons are /m/ from the beginning!
>>13598255
Well,yes.
There is reason I love /m/.
>>13597040
You know I fear this is the closest we will ever get to having the concept on film.
![Mobile Suit Gundam MS IGLOO 2 Gravity of the Battlefront Epi.mp4_snapshot_18.54_[2015.11.17_15.40.41].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/xlW3zAl.jpg "Mobile Suit Gundam MS IGLOO 2 Gravity of the Battlefront Epi.mp4_snapshot_18.54_[2015.11.17_15.40.41].jpg")
>>13577969
GUYS .. GUYS!
How about a robot using power armor piloting a mech!
>>13599941
Long talking guy here, that's an interesting question.
Zentradi from Macross are giant, myself I would say that their suit are Mechs to them for the same reasons I give to human : they doesn't seem to need their own motive power.
But if it did, it would count as Exoskeleton for Giant (and you couldn't make them mech for miclone by fixing a seat to it).
But then, what if >>13599941 idea ?
For starter : does the (requested & approved) FINAL FUSION result in a mech or another powered-exoskeleton.
I see a few cases :
1) human > Powered-Exoskeleton > Mechs (as in, the mech don't need its motive force)
Then the orignal P-E is also an interface for a mechs
2) human > Powered-Exoskeleton > Powered-Exoskeleton-for-Powered-Exoskeleton
Then the 2nd layers is an optional add-on.
3) human > Mech > P-E for mechs
Here that's actually just an add-on.
4) human > Mech > Mech
The original mech also serve as an interface for another mechs
5) human > (P-E + P-E) = Mech
Alone it is just a P-E but with its add-on the ensemble is a Mech.
7) (human > P-E) + (human > P-E) = P-E or Mech with 2 operators
I would pay to see that.
8) human centipede > Powered Exoskeleton
ok, I'm frightening myself.
>>13599866
Good, at least someone understood the logic
>>13599891
> You know I fear this is the closest we will ever get to having the concept on film.
For what ?
We've had mini mech in Matrix, Avatar & Distric 9.
Pacific Rim Jeager are only bigger Mech with 2 pilots
Edge of Tomorrow was about power-armor / mechs depending of how you look at it.
There also Patlabor TNG now
So far Iron-man Hulkbuster is only the first instance of a mech inside another one.
>>13577969
goddamn, that armor is paper thin, what the fuck
>>13588359
Wow, I always see this same guy shitposting in various threads and always posting that image.
Maybe you should reevaluate your life? You're kind of a loser, dude.
>>13601812
That's the point. They're basically trashcans with guns that you aim at the enemy in large numbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeljP3PhiM0
>>13601812
Compensating mobility with low armor.
>>13601784
Sorry anon, was thinking of the dream of a big budget Gundam.
>>13594731
Someone's touchy.
>>13594662
>You tell me if you see a flaw in the logic.
I can't even follow your "logic," but I suspect that face that English isn't your first language might be playing a role in that.
My loose definition of mecha is "limbed machines." Your mileage may vary.
>>13601747
>8) human centipede > Powered Exoskeleton
>ok, I'm frightening myself.
Human Cent-iPad is /m/ now.
>>13603898
I'm not sure I want to know what this episode was all about.
