![[Kagura] Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn - 4 [BDRip 1920x1080 x264 Hi10P TrueHD].mkv_snapshot_38.54_[2015.11.26_09.01.35].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/hnD4ZoR.jpg "[Kagura] Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn - 4 [BDRip 1920x1080 x264 Hi10P TrueHD].mkv_snapshot_38.54_[2015.11.26_09.01.35].jpg")
Why are jets totally irrelevant in gundam?
Writer fiat.
>>13563926
There would be no need for mobile suits. Jets and tanks are better than mobile suits. So you have to write a story which makes mobile suits superior to them.
>>13563939
Sponsor fiat more likely. Tomino might have written 0079 but he did it on commission and he didn't have a free hand in what he was allowed to do with the story and designs. We know Sunrise nixed some of original ideas to make the show more child friendly or toyetic and Clover (who I believe was the original toy company involved) probably had a hand in the design plan of the mobile suits too, since Tomino originally wanted power armor and had to use the suits we know and love today despite his own ideas. I would imagine that if the original plan was to use power armor and a carrier ship that there'd have been at least some planes or something too, to compliment the power armor. Anyone who's wanted to over the years would have been denied by Sunrise and Bandai though, because they need to keep that gunpla machine pumping.
Do to you think Gundamverse has anime dedicated to jets and tanks? Maybe Top Gun is the NGE of the UC?
>>13563926
>>13563959
>People forget the G-Fighter
Jets should have a more prominent place in OYW where a lot of transport was done by giant aircraft, but they're less prominent in post-OYW UC because they're not given MS-class weapons and once people start building flying MS there's no reason to have jets aside from cost, which is no object.
Minovsky Particles.
No radar guided weapons, TV/Laser guided weapons are difficult in high concnetrations of Minovksy. Everything else out guns you by a large margin.
Don't actually need wings and control surfaces when in space.
>>13563965
0079 has a lot of combined arms in it with jets still playing a role in combat (like M'Quve's trap and Garma's first encounter with the WB crew). It's only in Zeta and onwards do jets completely disappear for the most part, with the rare exception or two, like Norris' Dopp in 08th.
>>13563999
According to Japanese technical books on Gundam, the Federation "realized" that Mobile Suits were the future of warfare and diverted all jet-based R&D resources to mobile suits. While large aerial transports are still developed that take advantage of the micro-fusion reactors and Minovsky particle technology that make MS so powerful, single-pilot fighters and bombers are just given up entirely.
It's sort of like what happens when drones replaced motorcycles in the Army for the purposes of scouting and communication, or when tanks replaced horses. Mobile Suits just do everything better.
>>13563959
>There would be no need for mobile suits. Jets and tanks are better than mobile suits.
Except for the fact that mobile suits are designed originally for space warfare where as jets and tanks are completely useless in space.
>>13563926
Why is the VF-4 in Gundam?
>>13564024
y-yeah who would have tanks in space
sweating hayato.jpg
>>13564024
Mobile suits are only viable because of Minovsky particles.
>>13564037
>vaguely similar wing geometry and engine placement
>must be exactly the same plane
>>13564060
The closest thing to a space tank commonly used by the Federation are Balls and they can't fire one round without going bananas due to inertia.
AMBAC offsets that and it requires being able to move the whole frame like a person's.
>>13564076
>>13564107
Regular Balls can fire rounds fine.
B-Gundam can't because the Gundam face fucked up its centre of mass.
>>13564024
Except that we've seen Core Boosters kill Gelgoogs.
The Earth Federation are the only people that know how to make decent planes and they are too fucking retarded to run their military properly and suffer from Zaku shock, so they throw all their R&D at bigger and badder Zaku ripoffs.
>>13564209
>Zaku ripoffs.
That was mostly the titans and AE. All RX-78 derivatives use a design philosophy completely foreign to the inner frame used by Zeonic, Zimmad, and MIP.
>>13564233
The Gundam is still a Zaku copycat..
>>13564250
The Zaku was just ripping off the Ball. They just added legs to something that didn't really need it as a marketing move.
>>13563926
Because what kind of faggot would want to fly a plane when he could run around in a giant robot instead?
>>13564107
Can AMBAC work in gravity ?
tweaking it on earth would be a huge pain .
Better question - AMBAC even possible in real life?
>>13564285
>>13564285
/k/ommando and >>135642893
Too bad the movie ended before ww3 begins.
>>13564259
the legs were so it could walk and stand on the outer side and inside of of colonies.
>>13564294
>and >>135642893
Meant >>13564289
>>13563926
The reason biplanes are irrelevant in irl moden warfare. The niche for them doesn't exist any more.
>>13564011
Mobile Suits can break the sound barrier?
>>13564357
What could you possibly hit at the speed of sound without guided missiles?
>>13563926
Maneuverability. Jets are good for getting your missiles to wear they need to be quickly; the missiles then do the "maneuvering to the target" part that the jet can't. MS close the distance between pilot and target, and they have enhanced maneuverability compared to a jet, which is advantageous mostly for defensive purposes.
>>13563965
You'd think they'd jump at the possibility of starting up entire new lines, though. Think about it, so many models of fictional conventional vehicles could be sold.
>>13564410
They presumably fear it'd cut in to existing gunpla sales since they'd have to downplay mobile suits in the show to highlight planes or what have you in their place on a regular basis.
>>13564431
But they'd also be opening up sales to the more conventional sci-fi crowd that might not go for space samurai.
>>13564439
The skygrasper and space ships in Gundam have never sold that well to the traditional sci-fi crowd to my knowledge. They've no reason to believe that unless they really shift focus heavily towards those things that that'll change, at which point they're certainly going to dent their gunpla sales since there won't be as many or as much in the way of focus within a given show. Maybe it'd pay off, but maybe it wouldn't. Better the devil you know and all I imagine.
They cant carry munitions large enough to fuck up the thick ass armor on mobile suits.
>>13564389
>and they have enhanced maneuverability compared to a jet
>>13564456
Mobile suits don't have thick armor in the first place when they can be fucked up by missiles and beams that planes can carry
I love how starfox flipped the supposed advantages of MS's versus fighters by just making you faster. In reality maneuverability is less desirable than speed in a dogfight.
>>13563926
Zeta is half a jet
what are you talking about lad
>>13564512
>Zeta is half a jet
>it uses rocket propulsion
what are you talking about lad
>>13563926
they still had some cool designs
>>13562883
>>13564389
*where
>>13564486
No actual jet could do that. UC atmospheric flying is more falling-with-style, so MS can get away with slightly wonky-looking moves. Thrusting INTO a hard bank with your wings splayed like that is asking for them to be sheared off violently.
>>13564538
>No actual jet could do that.
Wow, like how no actual mech could do half the shit in Gundam.
>>13564502
You're supporting this with evidence from a game specifically designed for a player to be able to beat, from the stage immediately following the tutorial level?
> In reality maneuverability is less desirable than speed in a dogfight
Between aircraft. I could counter with Aegis vs Skygrasper, but in reality, neither of these two examples are particularly useful. Aircraft have limited maneuverability by their nature. Fighting against a machine with clearly superior maneuverability might make speed less of an advantage, if one at all.
I haven't read the thread yet, but I know it goes to shit because when I opened it and hit Ctrl+F AMBAC I got 3 results
>>13564288
Yes. Of course. Limbs work the same way IRL as they do in Gundam.
>>13564502
You shitting me? Those guys (especially the third one) were the most annoying bosses in that game.
>>13563926
Minovsky particles distort both visible light and most electronic frequencies, making long range combat and guided munitions useless or expensive. Most MS that do have long range weapons have giant radomes to combat the particle interference.
>>13564547
UC is good about keeping track of what MS can do and justifying it when they do something strange. I couldn't tell you what could justify those maneuvers being passed off as anything but laughably impossible. No machine with wings and a human being inside it moves like that and survives (let alone the human). If you say, "inertial dampeners and ultralight construction," I say, "Mary Sue machine, also even if it didn't fall apart there's no way the pilot could control that."
>>13564584
>>13564518
It uses both loser.
>>13564584
and so on
>>13564591
But it's so much easier to believe it when a machine with a head, arms and legs does it, right?
>>13564591
Behold the Gundam monkey in his natural habitat of knowing absolutely nothing about a 33 year old mainstream robot anime franchise
>>13564591
why would you watch a genre that rational people know is only because it seems cool, with some physics ideas sprinkled on to make the world more cohesive, and then try to debate about realism?
The whole genre of mecha only exists because it's a cool idea that doesn't make much actual sense.
>>13563926
the core fighter / core booster gets used...literally almost every episode in 0079.
>>13564591
>UC is good about keeping track of what MS can do and justifying it when they do something strange
you mean like when they TALK TO GHOSTS
or when the FRAME listens to your BRAIN
how about when the Nu just stopped a falling planetoid that was in earth's gravity well
>>13563926
Because the show is named "Mobile Warrior Gundam", not "Shooty Missiley Plane".
>>13564650
You're pretty fucking stupid if you haven't noticed that Gundam has been mystical since the original series. 08th MS Team and stuff like that are outliers.
>>13564591
Can't the Victory 2 move faster than the speed of light? How do you justify that garbage you retard?
>>13563926
There's hardly any point when most mobile suits have a transformation that's like a jet anyway.
>>13564678
It's not true just because you say so, fuckface
>>13564618
bull fucking shit, can you even point out where the air-breathing jets are?
this thread is officially retarded now
>>13564671
So when another series has humans flying in jets that can move past the normal G tolerance for a human being it's "unrealistic" but Gundam having psychic space autism bullshit physics it's just fine?
>>13564705
UC is consistently retarded, whereas macross is inconsistent period.
>>13564731
I don't know how the fuck a Gundam fan can say their universe is consistent when you have so many fucking OYW side stories with special snowflake Gundams running around. Not to mention your technology being inconsistent as fuck.
>360 cockpits first shown in Zeta
>shows up in War in the Pocket
>shows up again in 0083
>0083 machines have higher specs than Zeta MS
>08th MS team has squads of fucking Gundams running around
>during the battle of oddessa the federation had no GMs
>retcons up the ass say they do now
>>13564695
Zeta's main thrusters are in the wings which have bidirectional intake/exhausts
Z Plus are much more reliant on the leg thrusters and have clear intakes behind the knee.
>>13564758
Z plus A1 is supposed to be jet only since Karaba was Earth based. And Strike Zeta was a ram jet.
>>13564758
Those intakes are for reactor cooling, not for feeding supposed jet engines, all technical specs say the Zeta Gundam has rocket thrusters and not jet engines. only certain Zeta Plus variants (the atmospheric use models) are described as having jet engines
This is a distinction that has been made since the original series, they have been keen enough on the mechanical specs to think about it (e.g., Dom has jets in its legs while Rick Dom has rocket thrusters).
>>13564746
Do you have canon proof of this? I don't think they ever claimed that panoramic monitors were invented in Zeta and could not have existed before hand. The GM IIs in the first episode were old machines and they already had panoramic monitors.
Again, I'm not sure there was ever any exact wording that the Federation never had mobile suits at Odessa.
Also, you're a dumbfuck for thinking that 0083 machines have higher specs just because they have more thrust. Everything else in 0083 is shit, they have weakass beam weapons and rely on power through bulk. GP01 has nothing on Zeta except for having larger rockets.
>>13564746
>during the battle of oddessa the federation had no GMs
Though it was a retcon that placed GMs at Odessa Day first, it was a retcon from the early 80s, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
>>13564836
That Gundam can't be consistent when there's retcons everywhere with technology that looks too advanced for their time. Like the Unicorn and Sinanju moving faster than anything from F91.
>>13564825
>Everything else in 0083 is shit,
And yet the Zeta movies have 0083 MS running around :^)
>>13564909
Blame that on the fancy animation methods and storyboarding, not the actual technology described in the show.
>>13564926
don't forget unicorn had zakus
>>13564825
Zeta's reactors are in the legs. I'm not sure why the fuck you would think the openings in the flying armour are for reactor cooling when they all have thrust exhaust coming out of them at some point or another.
>all technical specs say the Zeta Gundam has rocket thrusters and not jet engines
No, they seriously don't.
>ç†±æ ¸ã‚¸ã‚§ãƒƒãƒˆ / ãƒã‚±ãƒƒãƒˆ
>Thermonuclear Jet/Rocket
I couldn't tell you how the fuck the original Zeta's legs are pulling in significant air but it's the damn setting.
>>13564486
You do realize your webm actually proves his point since there are several times when the plane transforms into gerwalk mode right?
>>13564496
Don't MS get thinner armor in late UC since a lot of people didn't see the point in thick armor if beams are gonna instant kill your ass anyway?
>>13564957
Watch it again. He never transforms to gerwalk mode once during that webm. He's even flying backwards by using the swiveling engines on the wings.
>>13564961
Yep. F91 even lacks chest armor, it has a radiator grid thing going on in the torso front. Victory has thin armor to the point that mobile suit machine guns and infantry RPGs could be a threat.
>>13563965
...what could have been.
The PERFECT scale for a Mobile Suit...ok mini mecha, but still.
>>13564486
I don't care what fucking Overtech can do, those G's should gooify him.
>>13564970
>He never transforms to gerwalk mode once during that webm.
Except he does.
>He's even flying backwards by using the swiveling engines on the wings.
Which means there is zero purpose in using an aircraft form since the wings will not generate any lift that way and are nothing more than dead weight.
>>13565146
At that scale (5 meters or so?), the name "Mobile Suit" makes more sense than the gigantic units the show is forced to feature.
>>13565154
>Which means there is zero purpose in using an aircraft form since the wings will not generate any lift that way and are nothing more than dead weight.
Hardpoints.
>>13565154
He doesn't. Show me a screencap from that webm where he transforms to gerwalk.
>>13565146
How is your dude going to fit inside.
>>13565261
Minovsky particles?
>>13565261
WD-40/Vaseline mix
>>13564312
What's this ??
>>13564538
Realistically no mech should be able to do anything like that either.
Humanoid shape for a flying machine makes 0 sense. Humanoid mechs exist only to "humanize" combat between large machines.
>>13565146
Are you saying... we make a giant Yazan?!
>>13565619
I can think of better ways.
>>13565146
Using bigger scaled figurines to make gunpla look a lot smaller seems to be really popular at model shows. It's not quite power armour scaled but it might be relevant to your interests.
>>13565752
>>13565756
>>13565766
I found an actual power armour scaled Mock from some guy on /toy/. I wish they were like this in the show. At least I have Xenoblade X I guess.
>>13565779
I'm trying to find some 144 scale tanks. Any idea where I might be able to find some? Any good brands?
>>13565752
One of these days I might want to pick up a Grimoire and experiment with the color schemes. This looks pretty neat.
>>13564486
source? haven't seen that and it looks cool
>>13565887
Macross Frontier, the 1st movie.
>>13565194
not him but
>>13564288
>Can AMBAC work in gravity ?
To a very limited degree, yes.
>Better question - AMBAC even possible in real life?
The concept behind AMBAC is one of the few things in Gundam that can honestly be said to be based on real-life physics.
>>13565814
Ask the gunpla thread on /m/ or /toy/.
>>13564562
Mig 17s and phantoms speed was the deciding factor in those fights despite the mig being the superior dogfighter
>>13566053
Or the classics from WW2, Zeros vs Hellcats, Me 262 vs all props.
>>13566053
>>13566100
The argument isn't speed vs maneuverability in planes. It's that the mobile suit's unplanelike mobility gives it the advantage.
It can dodge in any direction, continuously turn to face, and change vectors in ways a plane cannot.
Jets defeated the airmaster no worries in gundam X, they egen forced it go get a midseason upgrade
>>13566139
dude, the fact that you're still clinging to this proves you dont know what you're talking about
>>13566197
>Can't turn to face
>Turns in an ark
>Can't sidestep
>Can't melee
>Can't stop because of stall
I'm seeing a bunch of things a plane can't do, and none of them are fixed by going faster.
>>13566207
You really have no idea about air combat. At all.
Helicopters are much more maneuverable than fighter planes and can easily turn into any direction. They still have 0 chance to win with a fighter plane.
The most important things in air combat are speed and climb rate. Then maneuverability.
Zeros could dance around Corsairs and Hellcats, that sure helped them right?
And modern missiles have 90 degrees off boresight capability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMSfg26YSQ
Flying mechas are just bullshit. There is no way around it.
>>13566221
>Flying mechas are just bullshit. There is no way around it.
Good thing we're arguing about cartoon warfare then!
>>13564580
As long as you weren't dumb enough to fly directly at the legs, you were fine.
>>13566232
As stated earlier in the thread, they are humanoid to humanize the fights.
Which seems pointless really when series like GuP or Arpeggio do so good without humanizing their machines.
>>13564825
>The GM IIs in the first episode were old machines and they already had panoramic monitors.
>>What is retrofitting?
>>13565619
So you want a Variable Fighter?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sEnx44v6Dk
>>13566221
>And modern missiles have 90 degrees off boresight capability.
Not ones in Gundam.
Look at that hit rate. The most effective planes in Gundam use oversize beam cannons. Or anti-ship swords.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqxJ22DO1b0
>>13566221
Zeros also had no armor and only had machine guns when other fighters had cannons.
>>13566338
Even A6M2 had 2x20mm guns. MG FF specifically. The exactly same ones as Bf109E. A6M3 and above had even better 20mm guns.
They had more firepower then US fighters they went against.
>>13566245
> Arpeggio
> doesn't humanize it's machines
> all the machines have human soul constructs that walk among the crew, often more than one
Great example anon.
>>13566139
Thank you. It's really this simple. It's like saying, "Well look a cheetah is faster than a human so obviously it could beat a human in a fight." The deciding factor isn't speed, it's how each fighter's relative strengths stack up against each other. A human can fashion and use tools and outsmart a cheetah; it doesn't matter that he's slower.
>>13565619
>Humanoid shape for a flying machine makes 0 sense
Which is why they don't fly in-atmosphere (unaided, at least). Similarly, an atmospheric jet's design makes no sense in space, where so much of MSG takes place.
>>13566436
That's no different than a human pilot. Machines themselves are not humanoid.
>>13566456
How do you think a mobile suit would stack against something like the Starfury from Babylon 5, which can turn on a dime in space using vector thrusting and, as far as I can recall strafe using the same thruster arrays so it can fly in any direction at any time. It removes a lot of the disadvantages >>13566207 mentions, leaving only an inability to melee. Which isn't really a disadvantage if you're fast and maneuverable enough to avoid melee in the first place.
>>13566469
Except for the fact that they're indelibly tied to the machines as characters and the show constantly references and reinforces that in various ways. The show wants you to humanize the machines, they just go about it in a different way by giving the machine a literal soul, emotions and dreams rather than a human shape.
dogfighting is a meme. It doesn't exist anymore so having an anime about dogfighting jets is just as much fantasy as an anime about giant robots with swords.
>>13566221
>Helicopters are much more maneuverable than fighter planes and can easily turn into any direction. They still have 0 chance to win with a fighter plane.
Slowly. From the way this argument has gone, I'm sure it's been implicitly agreed that when was say "speed" we mean "covering distance over time", that "maneuverability" means "speed of orientation change in the same relative region of space." In which case, MS have far greater maneuverability than modern helicopters.
I don't know what your point is in bringing up historical aircraft. Most modern jet aircraft aren't designed for robust line-of-sight combat. They could probably blow an MS away from several miles out, but once a jet was in range for a dogfight, it would need to get OUT of range quickly or get its shit screwed.
Which is the point.
Minovsky shenanigans make jets obsolete. When you need to be up close to carry out an attack, low maneuverability and high speed is just asking for someone to model and predict your movement capabilities and to kick your shit in.
>>13563926
>>13566483
It'd probably fare well. I've always thought that Ender's Game had it right with the bugger fighters.
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Today-is-your-final-exam-27208155
I know they lost to the more fighter-like human ships, but I don't remember there being any descriptions of human-bugger dogfights in the original novel. "We" won by way of superior strategy, not tactics.
>>13566497
>They could probably blow an MS away from several miles out, but once a jet was in range for a dogfight, it would need to get OUT of range quickly or get its shit screwed.
Why would an MS be able to pull more G's than a fighter plane?
Also, it seems like you are trying to dance around just how much of an advantage off-boresight missiles would give.
>Minovsky shenanigans make jets obsolete.
It could if electro-optical systems like IRST didn't exist.
>>13566497
>They could probably blow an MS away from several miles out
Assuming there was no interference messing with the missiles from made up particles.
>>13566756
Also, post 0079, most MS are made from some degree of Lunar Titanium. Even a Zaku IIcan tank multiple massive TOW missiles if it's not at a vulnerable point like the joints, and that was the MS equivalent of an AK.
>>13566735
>Why would an MS be able to pull more G's than a fighter plane?
They can with a sub-flight system.
All the advantages of a fighter plane and mobile suit(s) with triple the combat survivability of a direct hit since they're separate entities.
>>13567053
I'm going to call bullshit on the idea that something that aerodynamically brick-like could break the sound barrier without shaking itself apart and going out of control at the same time.
You can't just put big engines on something and have it become capable of supersonic flight.
>>13567077
AHEM.
>>13564591
>UC is good about keeping track of what MS can do and justifying it when they do something strange.
So basically
It's okay when UC handwaves magic bullshit, even though that part of the series is so popular, they made an OVA series for it (Unicorn), but it's not okay when Macross says OverTechnology for a handwave?
>>13567125
>It's okay when UC handwaves magic bullshit, even though that part of the series is so popular, they made an OVA series for it (Unicorn), but it's not okay when Macross says OverTechnology for a handwave?
Pyschoframes were always quasi magical. It's like complaining that the black box in FMP doesn't follow the rules of physics. It's a massive plot point that it doesn't.
>>13567132
They're not as big of a plot point as Variable Fighters being built out of ancient alien technology that's on a level that allows faster than speed of light space travel.
>>13567157
>newtypes
>whispered
>not as big a plot point as ancient alien weapons being used by humans in Macross
It's the core of the premise in every series.
>>13567167
Completely silly Newtype magic only shows up in a small percentage of UC. There is literally not a single bit of Macross without Overtech and Protoculture related aliens.
>>13564288
>>13564575
the basic principles of ambac works in real life
however the issue is that a balance wheel works the same way, and is far more compact
power/weight/power usage are huge real world considerations, and there is no fucking way the extra >60% weight of huge gundam shoulders, arms, and legs is justified just for maneuvering.
People here think that AMBAC means that gundams are a realistic choice, when it really means they aren't COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE.
Also mecha shows generally ignore power consumption because it's the most boring real world consideration. How often do you see the old "it has heavier weapons, but extra thrust to offset the weight!"
>>13564502
Tell that to mother russia
>>13566735
>Why would an MS be able to pull more G's than a fighter plane?
It wouldn't need to. It would only need to pull more G's than a fighter can laterally, which is obviously substantially lower than the net Gs.
>IRST
I won't lie, I had to look it up. But, what?
>However, because the atmosphere attenuates infra-red to some extent (although not as much as visible light) and because adverse weather can attenuate it also (again, not as badly as visible systems), the range compared to a radar is limited.
So it's more likely to be fucked by Minovsky shenanigans, not less.
>>13566756
Sorry, I meant to imply that, in that specific hypothetical, Minovsky particles weren't an issue. That's why I made clear that introducing them into the equation completely destroys the usability of jets.
>>13566091
Female pilots? Get that woman out of here.
>>13566139
>it can dodge in any direction, continuously turn to face, and change vectors in ways a plane cannot.
Verniers, 360 degree cannons, and thrust vectoring.
autistic nerd rant/
Why are you people comparing modern jets and mobile suits? UC tech would be more than capable of producing something like a Falken with beam weapons. And minovsky shenanigans would just make it easier for ground attack planes to approach unnoticed and make a high speed beam cannon runs. They would need spotters on ground though. Modern fighters mostly have to worry about enemy fighters and surface to air missiles and with radar and infrared mostly out of the game, SAMs are no threat anymore. And AA from ground would be based on visual targeting so fighters should be quite safe from ground pounders. Air combat comes down to good ol' dogfighting though with beam weapons. I'm fine with MS being ground and space based units but they never should be the dominant weapon. MS doing ground strikes and calling in air strikes is something Gundam should do more. /autistic nerd rant
If mobile suits that can turn into planes or fighters makes sense in universe even as something tactically desirable, then there is recognition of some benefits offered by those forms over mobile suits. We should see at least marginally more planes, the reason we don't isthe toys dont sell as wellas when a jet is built in or a backpack etc.
>>13566232
Damage control, the post
>>13563926
The Federation from X actually seemed to still use airplane stuff strangely heavily.
There were transports, bombers, some flying fortress stuff and also jet-like Mobile Armors that could outperform the Gundam Airmaster, although they didn't take them to the space campaigns, just Earth stuff.
>>13567732
>/
>/
eat a fucking cock faggot.
>>13567105
God I love phantoms
>>13567105
>>13568504
I like that it has a target on it.
>>13565261
OP here, make them Asian.
>>13565752
What do I plug into Google to look this up anon?
>>13565954
To be perfectly fair, that's AFTER he dodged all the missiles and pausing for a dramatic stare down.
Regardless, I haven't seen planes do well in non-UC gundams either. Like the Jets and Helicopters of Gundam Wing who were just stock footage vulcan cannon fodder.
>>13563926
This guy >>13564584 is correct.
In response to >>13564619 >>13564614,
The issue with jets and most guided munitions is that Minovsky fields screw with UNSHIELDED electronics. Long-range, self-guided munitions are possible and seen in the universe, but they are not widely deployed because it is cost-prohibitive to shield them. Missiles fell by the wayside because it was difficult to target them through the Minovsky haze in the first place, and those you see on MSes are generally fired from close range; we like to think of Gundam fights in space as occurring over vast distances, but they're actually extraordinarily close, far closer than realistic space combat would ever be conducted at.
Long-ranged beam weaponry has the same problem as normal particle beams and lasers (dispersion / loss of beam cohesion over distance), plus the interference of the Minovsky particles floating around in space. In the same way that a laser does less work over a distance in atmosphere compared to space, so does a beam weapon do less work in space when there is a dense particle field compared to when there isn't. This is why Gundam battleships aren't blowing each other out of the space-sky the moment they have line of sight; not only is the Minovsky haze making a fog that limits engagement to certain distances, but beam weapons rapidly lose power with range. These ships also DISPERSE THEIR OWN MINOVSKY CLOUDS to take the punch out of incoming beam weaponry. MSes using long ranged beam guns are doing it from distances closer than ship-to-ship, or from angles that a Minovsky cloud isn't covering.
Another thing to consider is the mass needed for all of this technology. It's conceivable that all the bells and whistles needed to power jets with similar capabilities to an MS just can't fit on an object the size of a normal jet. There is a trend towards smaller and smaller units as UC goes along and generators and weaponry can be miniaturized, with Victory mooks being pretty tiny.
>>13569316
>magic radar particles
Gotcha.
>>13569316
So much of Gundam fighting also takes place in space, where form factor is less important. There is no advantage to having wings designed for atmospheric lift when you are in a vacuum. A larger object has more room for Gundam's AMBAC or real-world flywheels and gyros than the flimsy wings of a jet, and more space to store the reaction mass needed for thruster maneuvering. While a larger and heavier object also needs more impetus to move around, it can also store more as well; it comes down to a mass consideration, and Gundam fuel is pretty light (being hydrogen).
Mobile Suits also perform all manner of physical tasks that jets would need specialized systems (read: limbs of some sort) for. You see MSes moving and attaching giant gas canisters, picking shit up in space, helping with ship repair, altering planetary terrain, and throwing things. Jets can only move and shoot. While jets would be far cheaper, evidently the powers that be in Gundam figured that the additional versatility of their units was worth the economic cost. It seldom appears that main forces are lacking suits rather than pilots.
>>13569331
Yes, that's literally the entire point of the UC setting. That is how it works. Your response derides it as a casual handwaving, but Minovsky particles are pretty damned defined and have been there since '79.
Why wasn't G-Fighter mass produced?
>>13569332
And finally, you don't want to go down the "muh realism" path, because realism makes jets obsolete for other reasons.
With the level of technology seen in Gundam and many other mecha shows, everything should be obliterated instantly. Lasers would demolish jets the moment they peeked over the horizon, and battleships in space would start getting slammed by projectiles or laser fire the moment any two enemies had LOS (which, in space, is really, really far).
Manned aircraft also make no sense. We're already at the point today, in reality, where jets are flown primarily by computers with humans nudging them along. Next generation jets have so many fidgety flight control surfaces and are so unstable so as to aid in advanced maneuvering that no human could possibly handle all of them without computer flight assist. In the future, humans won't even be a part of the equation. There is an enormous amount of space and mass you can save in a jet, and especially a SPACE JET, when you no longer need to worry about things like ejection systems, food or air supplies, heaters / coolers for the pilot, all his control interfaces, the hatches he uses to get in an out, miscellaneaous other life support systems, and the space he takes up. A computer the size of a breadbox replaces all of that, saving you hundreds of pounds of mass, tens of thousands of dollars in equipment, and untold amounts of dosh in not having to train some poor sap for years just so he can blow up on his first sortie (not to mention all the food and space required for that pilot when he's NOT in his spacejet).
And that's before we even get into how utterly fucked "fighters" are going to be in space with computerized fire control systems on the carriers or battleships. They'll never get close. The most likely use of them is as mobile micromissile platforms that blow their load from strange angles and then try to suicide into the enemy, just to hope at oversaturating their defenses.
>>13569356
>aircraft make ground combat unfun for decades by dropping missiles and bombs on everything from miles away with no hope of counterattack
>the future makes aircraft unfun forever by instantaneously blasting them out of the sky whenever they so much as reveal a wing
>the battlefield is once again dominated by manly men meleeing each other with their subterranean drillbots
>>13564700
That's the understatement of the year.
>>13569344
according to MSV-R they are and used until at least UC0090 as heavy multipurpose modular aircraft (CAS, fighter bomber, troop transport)
but you know, non/semi-canon at best
>>13569356
>Lasers would demolish jets the moment they peeked over the horizon
So we need TSFs?
>>13565150
They would, if they were not using artificial gravity tech as an inertial canceller.
Since Macross 7, there hasn't been a VF that an ordinary human could survive piloting without life-saving inertial cancelers.
>>13565966
> The concept behind AMBAC is one of the few things in Gundam that can honestly be said to be based on real-life physics.
Sort of. The IDEA behind AMBAC is scientifically sound. That said, Gundam has literally never used it correctly. Given the size and mass of mobilsuits, in order for AMBAC to work they should have to do a little dance every time they spin around and reorient themselves in space. You know, something that actually involves moving their limbs, instead of just perfectly spinning around via magic.
Its like having a movie give an in depth description of 3D printing and what it can be used for, and then making a car using an office photocopier. Sound idea, blatantly wrong execution to such a degree that why did you even bother trying to sound legitimate in the first place?
>>13564580
Wat? you can kill em in under 40 seconds with blue lasers. they're supah easy modo.COCKY LITTLE FREAKS!!!!!
>>13569638
Get that sameface trash out of here. Take it back to that cancerous waifufaggotry ML containment thread.
>>13569356
My thing is how easy it's going to be to punch a hole in a battleship, considering everything you've mentioned. I think the most realistic paradigm, if human spaceflight and combat is ever a thing at all, is swarms of manned craft that themselves control swarms of drones. When battles begin, all craft disperse and maneuver so as to confuse enemy targeting algorithms. Manned craft are only fitted for limited combat and are mostly concerned with defensive and life-support systems, while the drones do most of the offensive dirty work.
Perhaps battleships are deployed at the rear for transport, or the manned craft can henshin. But this is all assuming that manned space exploration and combat will be the paradigm. Although I'm not super comfortable with it, I expect AI will be doing most of this. Humans will only go out there en masse if AI is a crap shoot and communication issues make remote drone operation impossible (re:Minovsky).
>>13571027
I agree
>>13563926
if they weren't they would destroy everything
>>13564591
>MS travelling through time
>justifiable
>>13569638
pretty sure they were plagued by a similar problem...
>>13570560
To be fair, they combine AMBAC with the thrusters to achieve that mobility, not use it as a substitute for reorientation. It's supplements the movement, not achieves it.
And they actually do sometimes do that dance in any series with the animation budget to handle it.
>>13570810
>calling another mecha franchise sameface trash
>in a gundam thread
>>13569344
Because it looks retarded.
>>13565679
This is ironic. Usually it's the Russian counterpart to an American aircraft that never entered service, not the other way around.
'Course, that gave us the F-35, so there's that.
>>13567732
>And AA from ground would be based on visual targeting so fighters should be quite safe from ground pounders.
Just because it isn't tracking with radar doesn't mean it can't automatically target track using optical sensors and a regular FCS.
You can even range decently using completely passive methods like stadiametric rangefinding.
You could also still datalink as long as you had line of sight too.
>>13569316
>Minovsky fields screw with UNSHIELDED electronics
Military hardware generally already is shielded against EMP.
Generally, how much do minovsky fields tend to hamper electro-optical systems like thermal imagers and regular old magnified optics?
The thermal BVR sensors on modern aircraft can detect targets out to, and in exess of, 35-90km depending on target heading.
Unless the minovsky fields could cut that down to under 3-5km, IR and beam-guided missiles would still outperform everything that wasn't a beam-weapon.
>>13565814
http://www.dragon-models.com/d-m-list.asp?sid=17
>>13569424
MSV-R is also the book that says that jets eventually get defunded by Feddie high command in order to develop more MS and transforming jet MS. Once you get to that point, why have jets?
>>13573559
Minovsky tends to slaughter most things as far as we can tell. Radio and coms tend to take the brunt of the damage, thats why suits are always touching eachother to open com links, same with those wires you sometimes see them shoot at eachother. Satellites and other high altitude sight is fucked, due to zeon destroying all the satellites in addition to mivosky particles
It is also stated that in the battle of Jabro that the visible light started to get fogged up due to there being so much minovosky in the air.
>>13566221
>Helicopters are much more maneuverable than fighter planes and can easily turn into any direction. They still have 0 chance to win with a fighter plane.
Actually, you'd be surprised. Attack helicopters have a couple recorded kills on fighter planes. Not really because of their maneuverability, mind you. It's mostly because they tend to stay low and hug terrain, so don't tend to get picked up by radar until jets get reasonably close, and then jet pilots tend to get overconfident attacking a helicopter and fly straight on while attacking, making them easy targets for the helicopter's AA missiles or turreted gun. In the late 1970s the US tested helicopters against jets, and found that they should only engage at long range, or from well above, and preferably only with missiles.
A lot of attack helicopters have the capability to carry MANPADs or even IR seeking short range missiles like the sidewinder. Iranian cobra helicopters shot down like 4 iraqi fighter jets in the Iran-Iraq war, with sidewinders. Iraqi Hinds shot down two Iranian jet fighters, one with an R-60 missile (similar to sidewinder), one with an ATGM missile set in A2A mode.
Out in the open, a helicopter is very vulnerable to jets with long range missiles, but hiding in complex terrain, they need to be dealt with very carefully.
On the other hand, the are also many more kills by jets on helicopters, with both guns and missiles. There has even been at least one recorded case of a helicopter being taken down by an aircraft's laser guided bomb. During the gulf war, an F-15 engaged a helicopter which was on the ground when they dropped the laser, but took off, so they kept the laser on the helicopter anyway because why not? And the helicopter was blown to pieces by the bomb.
I'd give a smart attack helicopter pilot a decent chance against an Arab in a jet, and certainly at least a non-zero chance against a real pilot.
Why is Gundam totally irrelevant to the rest of the world?
>>13574142
Because it's a toy commercial. Shut up.
>>13574142
>>13574145
Because Bandai is bad at marketing.
>>13569424
>>13569428
>>13573659
Because it's a waste to just have them sitting around when they can do some roles much much cheaper?
Speaking of jets and spaceships, are any of you going to get the new Darius? It comes out tomorrow on PS4/Vita, and on the 3rd for PC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRCchsKmQBk
>>13574968
I wish I could. No PS4 or Vita, and my PC is absolute shit.
>>13574968
I guess, on PC.
I wish 3d graphics SMUPS weren't still uglier than 15 year old 2d ones, though.
>>13564439
Would be easier to make your own franchise which catered to aeroplane fans. Shit, tops, yoyos and card games can sell to kids if you do it well.
>>13563926
I remember aircraft being used a whole damn lot, hell theres mobile suits who transform into what is basically jets.
>>13564667
Fuck you, I'd watch the fuck out of "Shooty Missile Plane".
>>13574968
Is this another revision of Burst?
I mean, Burst is fun and all but how long has Taito been Capcomming this one?
>>13575868
>>13563926
It's a giant robot anime and giant robots are supposed to be the end-all-be-all military machine in Gundam. That's why jets/vehicles basically stopped being a thing after the OYW
>>13574968
...Was that a remixed Civil Rights-era protest song?
>>13564076
I think he's joking buddy
>>13576110
Yes.
>PSP game
>lol idevice port
>two or three arcade games
>this
I look at how long it's been since the last time Konami made a Gradius game and I think I'm okay with this.
>>13571027
So basically you think funnels are the future?
>>13574968
>new R-Type never
>>13576205
noice planemediocre OVAs, but eh...
>>13576358
I wouldn't say never, but it might be a long time, yeah.
>>13566221
Preety much >>13573961. However, if you go ask /k/ they should be able to give you a more definitive answer with sources.
>>13563926
It's an anime that is ultimately marketing toys to kids. You need to go into it with suspension of disbelief. Modern tech would wreck the shit out of mobile suits, especially if they didn't have minovsky particles.
It's the same way I had to keep myself from calling bullshit everytime an F-22 got rekt in Aldnoah Zero.
>>13576337
Absolutely, if you need a man on the ground at all. If you don't, it's drones all the way.
>>13576358
NEVER EVER
