I am an atheist, but I wonder how in this day and age, a person can feel a sense of wonder and passion and beauty for life, or more precisely, mental well being. I feel like everything is so superficial, a lot of times I just feel oppressed by looking at the world around me. I look at it on most days and it looks like a grey canvas, it looks like it has no vibrance, even if it's a beautiful sight it doesn't fill me with any sense of wonder, because I know in my heart that it's all meaningless to me. It's weird because every once and a while I get these inexplicable experiences where I feel like I'm experiencing life with more of my senses and more vibrance, and just being conscious is nice. I don't know how I could feel that way all the time.
I wish I knew how I could change that, I feel like I can grasp that sense, like the sense is there just waiting to be felt. I can almost feel exactly what it would feel like, but the feeling is so faint that it is really only a memory, but I can almost taste it. I want to feel that feeling where everything is vibrant and I feel happy when I'm experiencing the world around me.
Realizing you're own existence is a paradox, because the mind can't undo the incalculable error that it brought upon itself. I want to have that sense of reaching outside of myself, I want to feel that sense of wonder for the world, instead of everything else around me with it's superficiality and it's constant reinforcement of meaningless seems to instill in me. "yolo" "life is very short" "take out a life insurance policy" "when you grow old" "your parents won't live forever" "we're all only mortal". People just reinforce these obnoxious soul crushing statements like it's nothing, it sickens me.
So, I gotta cap off the thread by asking, since this is a literature forum, is there a book that will make me feel this way if I read it?
You have a depression, eat anti-depressants and stop bitching. Simple as that. It really, really, is.
>>8291567
I don't trust antidepressants.
>>8291555
Myth of Sisyphus. If that doesn't resonate then switch gears and read Siddhartha
>>8291555
honestly I don't think a book will "cure" this.
You should atleast talk to a psychologist about you thoughts.
And yeah, dont eat anti-depressants. It will fuck up your brain completely.
>>8291581
Of course. How didn't I foresee that you're part of the "SSRI is a conspiracy"-folk?
Well, I guess just keep being miserable then until you kill yourself in your mid 20s and leave behind an edgy moronic suicide note to your fragile mother about how misunderstood your unique butterfly soul is and how you the patrician unlike all other "sheep" see the world for the gray dead place it is.
Or be an adult and try taking charge of your life by actually facing your issues and taking anti-depressants, you massive fucking tool.
>>8291607
You're making a lot of assumptions about me bro. Don't assump me bro, don't assump me. Presumptuousness amounts to nil.
>>8291607
>actually facing your issues
>taking anti-depressants
Pick one and only one.
>>8291607
As an impartial third party I can tell you that you've come across as a far more miserable tool than OP has. Read this exchange back to yourself if you'd like.
>>8291555
I Am A Strange Loop + Alan Watts Essential Lectures to set you straight
>It's weird because every once and a while I get these inexplicable experiences where I feel like I'm experiencing life with more of my senses and more vibrance, and just being conscious is nice. I don't know how I could feel that way all the time.
I get this when I take mushrooms and in the few weeks after.
>>8291645
You're ill - take your medicine. It really isn't different.
Anti-depressants help you find the energy and mindset to take care of your deeper set issues, such as lacking a healthy diet and exercise (don't underestimate how much this does for your mind).
>>8291555
>is there a book that will make me feel this way if I read it?
Yes, the Bible.
>>8291679
I don't believe in god though, isn't that the whole point of the bible? I'm already a pretty moral person, I think that more atheists have a better moral compass than christians do. You know what the bible is for? It's a book that people interpret and get their morals from, and everyone's interpretation is subjective. You know where I get my morals from? Everywhere, every book, every good piece of wisdom, I go off what I feel just like everyone else, but I don't just get my morals from one source. I'm not saying the bible isn't a good piece of literature, I suppose for it's time it was a pretty damn good work of art. I just don't like the way it's become like this big source of moral code for a bunch of people.
>>8291678
It actually IS different.
When you live a shit life, you're prone to get sick, and taking the medicine helps with the sickness, but not with the core problem, that is, the shitty life.
That being said, anti-depressants will surely help you keep going, but it's a just a parchment. Facing your issues, going to a psychologist, or both, are what's needed if you don't want to live a miserable life depending on a chemical.
>>8291691
Well, if you're right and there is no God, then you're seeing the world the way it really is. Everything really is ultimately meaning less. Someday you'll die, and everyone who knew you will die, and everyone who is alive today will die, and someday the sun will burn out and everyone will die, and then no one will even know we were ever here. All you can do is find ways to distract yourself. If the Bible is the word of God however, it's worth a read.
>>8291705
That's precisely what I wrote in my post too.
>>8291678
I exercise and eat the healthiest possible diet available to mankind. I'm dead fucking serious, I've been an extremely healthy dieter for years, and I'm smart about it too. I eat all raw foods, healthy fats, I don't do dumb shit like avoid fat and glutin and bread and carbs, I eat a lot of really good shit; in fact that's the only thing my diet consist of is healthy food. I exercise sometimes but to be honest being outside running around gives me stress, because to be honest just being around people and crossing the street with cars going by is enough to make me feel stressed out.
I think what would help is if I had some friends or something. I am basically a loner and I know that in mavlobs hierarchy of needs I am definitely missing social acceptance (if that really was one of the thing son it), Because I am just a total loner man, I'm not kidding when I say when I have someone over or around another people I have no idea what to say and I have no idea what to do. I don't know a single person in this entire city, this entire fucking city. I'm a loner and it feels like I'm always going to be a loner, but I thirst for something more.
My ideal life would be like, having a bunch of friends and connections to all sorts of interesting people, and close friends who I don't just have to meet up with like every month or something, but I want to have people who I can get together with on a regular basis and discuss intimate thoughts. And I'm tired of being a virgin, believe me man. I really wish that I could get out there and meet some hot guys, I just want to know what that's like to have intimacy with another person. I think that what probably needs to happen is I need to find a boyfriend or something (although I find guys attractive, I almost can't imagine having sex with a guy, or dating a guy. It's almost as though I don't know if I would like it, even though I think about guys all the time, because I don't know if I would like it).
>>8291723
You have social anxiety. SSRI and going to therapy will help you with this.
>>8291673
I just bought GEB... That strange loop thought excites.
OP, you sound depressed. Have you been to a doctor/been diagnosed? There are many forms of therapy. Don't let someone tell you that talk therapy or antidepressants are the only solution. People have lived with depression for thousands of years without SSRIs. They are helpful, I am alive because of Citalopram, but you can find a way out of this without them. Look into other forms of therapy – maybe one of them will appeal. Mindfulness intrigues me and I'll probably be seeing a professional this fall to help w/ that.
>>8291567
>>8291607
>>8291678
Jesus.
>>8291708
There's no evidence that god ever existed and I get that it gives people hope and stuff, and it's good that you can tell what it means that existence would be meaningless if god doesn't exist. Idk how you can convince yourself that god exists when there's literally no evidence that he does, that right there is proof that god doesn't exist because there was never a good reason to say he exists in the first place.
I think the reality of the situation is, if you're brain is producing the right chemicals then you'll be happy. It all comes down to biology, every time you're happy it's because your brain releases chemicals that make you happy. It's sort of funny to me how people always look for these deeper senses of meaning. Dude, you're only using your brain which is this big bundle of neurons, it really doesn't matter if you find any sort of meaning anyways. If you find some meaning and it makes you happy it's really just because your brain is producing the right chemicals to make you happy.
I dunno what it is exactly that causes people's brains to not produce enough happy chemicals in the first place. I'd love to know why my brain decided it would be a good idea to make me feel like shit, maybe it just denies you the feeling of happiness so that you have to work for it and therefor have some incentive to do anything. Then you get the whole paradox of life being meaningless thing so you're stuck in this never ending loop where your brain keeps denying you the chemicals even though there's really no way to solve the dilemma you've found yourself faced with.
>>8291738
I have been going to a psychologist for the past year and a half as a matter of fact. I have contemplated getting ssris. I mean, I'm not like cripplingly depressed or something, but I definitely have extremely low motivation, I can barely even find the motivation to wash the dishes in my sink or really do anything, because I don't really care about anything. It's only sometimes though where it feels like my brain is lacking any sort of feeling to redeem the negative, that just experiencing reality itself is enough to make me feel like shit; that doesn't happen often enough for me to feel like I really need ssri, except that seems absurd because when I look at myself it doesn't really seem like there's anything I can do with just thinking about the problem to solve it. I... guess I could go and talk to my doctor about whether or not it would be a good idea.
>>8291743
There's a lot you're assuming here, you know. Empiricism is in fashion, especially online, but it's far from some kind of philosophical certainty. Presumably you have a skeptical side. Cultivate it.
You're also assuming that happiness is the definite goal. This one is so deeply ingrained people usually laugh at anyone who question it. If nothing will set you free from your misery, consider embracing it for the moment... (Though I think happiness is probably preferable)
>>8291754
It's worth a try, Anon.
>>8291555
I'm uneducated and I don't read a lot but there's a doc about the filmmaker Ozu you should check out I think it's called oh I don't remember but its got a Werner hereof interview where he's in japan talking about how it's impossible for a filmmaker this day in age to capture truth because everything is taken over by men trying to mass produce living nessesities. Great doc imo. I think if u truly crave such feelings you want to live like a real individualist. I think men we're meant to be the master of their position on life and most naturally that'd be of their immedietly souroumding encioronment, which is a hostile force. You want to live like a mountain man, or a soldier maybe, like a Navajo which I feel was the greatest if not most natural society as of yet, if we lived like them we would not worry about global warming or any of that shit. I'd recommend Richard marcinkos rouge warrior
>>8291775
Really interesting perspective. You into Nietzsche at all? Could be worth a look if you haven't read him much
>>8291555
Allow me to solve one mystery.
The meaning of life is survival.
Many people idiotically believe that because there is no god, life has no meaning.
When, for 3.8 billion years, the continuation of life has had the one signal purpose of seeing what happens next.
If you can't handle that we are communally flying ass first into the unknown, then be my guest and get off at the next stop and don't be a drama queen about it, you will only make it more difficult for the rest of us.
>>8291555
>hqdefault
>pseud bbc interview
kek. i bet you think youre really smart right now
>>8291808
>Allow me to solve one mystery.
>The meaning of life is
Fuck off, kid. Save it for your diary.
>>8291821
lol, true.
Then a nice cliché-ridden 'kill yrself'
Though I like the holistic approach
>>8291555
You just need to find love, OP.
>“I'm in love with you," he said quietly.
>"Augustus," I said.
>"I am," he said. He was staring at me, and I could see the corners of his eyes crinkling. "I'm in love with you, and I'm not in the business of denying myself the simple pleasure of saying true things. I'm in love with you, and I know that love is just a shout into the void, and that oblivion is inevitable, and that we're all doomed and that there will come a day when all our labor has been returned to dust, and I know the sun will swallow the only earth we'll ever have, and I am in love with you.”
>>8291843
gr8b8m8
>>8291869
summerfag
>>8291792
I know of two things he's said and think about them quite a bit actually, what should I start out with? I'm not good at deciphering literary devices so I don't want a philosophical story too much and I don't have a lot of trouble sifting the trenches of a dense and large book, I've read the Old Testament and really enjoyed it
>>8291691
cringe
>>8291691
>every book, every good piece of wisdom
The Abrahamic religions are tacitly responsible for a good deal of that wisdom - more than likely the majority of it, really - you are just too naive to see it. Not trying to shit on you here. You should just read more.
>>8291555
>I look at it on most days and it looks like a grey canvas, it looks like it has no vibrance, even if it's a beautiful sight it doesn't fill me with any sense of wonder, because I know in my heart that it's all meaningless to me.
Read Coleridge's Dejection: An Ode. Describes something almost exactly similar to this
>every once and a while I get these inexplicable experiences where I feel like I'm experiencing life with more of my senses and more vibrance, and just being conscious is nice. I don't know how I could feel that way all the time.
there's a theological answer but I suspect you don't want it. it has something to do withbeatitudeandgraceandheaven
>>8291887
Zarathustra would be the way to go: that's where the Übermensch, whose value you seem to have already recognized, is. It's something like a novel, I guess, but if you're willing to really work with it you'll do fine. No need for literary expertise, just trust and a critical attitude, like any work of philosophy. Remember not to assume you know what he's talking about, that's the hardest thing for me to do
>>8291915
>there's a theological answer but I suspect you don't want it. it has something to do with beatitude and grace and heaven
It seems to me these are manifestations of more general ideas. Though they're the most pervasive forms, they need not be associated with a deity
>>8291887
Those two things are the quote from the naked and the dead that's like "man is between a tree and a phantom, but do I bid you to be a phantom or a tree" and a picture I saw on /lit that's says if life is relived after death is smash out all my ducking teeth with a rock and cry all day.
OP I agree with other posters U should read the bible even and maybe especially if you're not into god, I've tried to get many people to do such and it never works so I won't try to explain myself at least read the first 5 books of the OT it's like 150 pages and maybe some of Jesus's preaching a like like maybe or maybe some bs zen shit also godards films have given me much joy and discovery. I think if you're not into living dangerously you would enjoy manipulating and cultivating relationships with people and the bible would give u a decent moral compass so u don't turn into a phsycopath I personally combat your ailments with drugs which I am not proud of and really fucking need to stop I want to buy a nice digital camera and some lenses and make videos to substitute my self medication sorry for rambling but I'm high on crystal meth
>>8291555
No joke
Get /fit/
>>8291934
Would you be willing to send me your e-mail address? I like you
>>8291555
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENZ2zRB-0AI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9hEfR-cXc4
This guy's poems/videos always make me feel happy and able to do anything. If I ever need to be motivated I watch the first video.
>>8291922
Great thanks a lot I've dipped my toes in philosophy for a while and now I'm really going in. You started someone on a (hopefully) rewarding path. I've always felt that living by other's ideas was pathetic and irrational bit now I think the way American society is we all are bred with ideals implanted and it's only practical to hear out peoples thoughts
>>8291942
M or f
>>8291555
Come to new Mexico probably the poorest state but you could live like 30 miles from Santa Fe or Abq, always are new art events people. Although Abq is schetch as fk never a dull moment
>>8291947
Lol no sure but I'm not posting it on 4 chan
>>8291944
Feel like there's a steep learning curve for Mr. Roggenbuck, but he has also helped me through certain moments in the last few years. He just seems so annoying. He's much more thoughtful than his videos show, so anyone seeing these for the first time I'd recommend giving him the benefit of the doubt for a little while!
>>8291946
I'm glad I could help. That's a very good point, I think we're all capable of wanting our ideas to come from nowhere but our own brains, but it's just not possible! I'd also recommend reading an anthology that gives you a variety of primary sources so you can find which philosophers interest you the most. By the way, that was me asked for your email but don't feel any pressure.
>>8291944
I don't want to make it seem like I shared these because I think they would fix your problems or something, they just helped me when I was in a similar time. Your problems are probably bigger than mine, but I hope it helps you feel just a little bit better, even if it's just a little bit.
>>8291555
Soul of the World by Roger Scruton
>>8291947
>>8291951
Hah ok send it to me at [email protected]
>>8291955
also yeah. The silliness of his videos is part of the message I've always felt, part of the boost.
>>8291965
Heading off now... email if you'd like, no problem if you don't feel like it.
>>8291808
Life is the recorder of nature. Animals live or die by nature and what they are is a reflection of the encioronment they live in. Humans are the great observers, more than just recording with our being we can actually record with words and art that is our responsibility imo
>>8291675
Since breaking through on mushrooms I have felt spontaneous moments of ineffable joy for even the mundane. LSD never gave me that sense of wonder, but since mushrooms I feel like I can see the magic in the world that growing up took away. Sometimes I'll simply be stopped at a red light on the way to a grocery store like any other day when light shining through the trees and the clouds appear to be perfect and still and beautiful and I tear up out of pure joy and childlike wonder. Mushrooms changed my life significantly.
>>8291555
Stop being an atheist you materialist trash
>>8291691
>I think that more atheists have a better moral compass than christians do.
You literally cannot have any moral compass as an atheist because you have no place to measure from.
You're shitting around in the dark and calling it a choreographed dance.
>Everywhere
So you're objective, but everybody else is subjective
The Bible, being the word of God, makes it an objective word of morality.
Not a source, it is not subjective or up to interpretation. This does not even depend on the existence of YHWH because the Bible as literature being even the metaphoric word of a perfect, omnipotent and omniscient, just, and absolute God makes it a greater source than the scribblings of men.
>>8291743
Are you trolling, or are you a genuine positivist?
Let me reiterate what I said in my last reply to you: God need not even 'exist' to exist because God is omnipotent.
>>8291766
Positivists are not skeptics, they just call themselves skeptics.
They're ideologues.
>>8291931
Yes they do you ideologue.
No they are not elements of something general
>>8292072
>You literally cannot have any moral compass as an atheist because you have no place to measure from.
Read Kant, Steve Harvey.
>>8292085
Both are fallacious, I've read both and they change nothing. If you cannot define good and evil you cannot have a moral system, they cannot be given any objective definition without absolute and objective good and evil; atheists reject any absolute good or absolute evil and thereby cannot have a moral compass.
>>8292104
Bbbut what if you're convictions are backwards
>>8292104
KEK.
You just went full fucking retard and showed you know nothing about you are talking about.
You mean to tell me that you've read pic related's philosophical works? Steve Harvey is a fundamentalist who believes you can't have am moral system without god, so I was accusing you of being him.
Kant wasn't an atheist and was a heavy believer in god, as a matter of fact, he believed you needed morality outside of god.
You don't know what you are talking about.
>>8292104
Well, your conclusion about objective morals are wrong so your moral compass doesn't exist either :^)
>>8292133
*is
>>8291555
I stopped reading your post, in part because it was retarded, but mostly because I've read it countless times before from countless other retards. Despite that, I recommend reading something like Catch-22. It will make you laugh. Chemicals will react, synapses will alight, and you will feel better for a time.
>>8292109
My personal convictions? That's irrelevant. God has no convictions, he has a will and that will is the only objective morality because God is absolutely just. OP claims he gathers his morality from everything, but fails to comprehend that God knowing everything that has ever or could ever be is absolutely above him.
But that's presuming experience defines morality.
>>8292120
You tell yourself that, bub.
>Kant wasn't an atheist and was a heavy believer in god
Everyone and their grandpappy knows this, it's irrelevant.
>he believed you needed morality outside of god.
His opinions are irrelevant.
I don't see how saying 'I've read Steve Harvey' is incorrect. It's equivalent to saying 'I've read Anon' where Anon is me. You infact have and thereby have some semblance of what I am communicating. But please, argue how un-fallacious Kant is while being a fallacious cunt. You feeding your ego does not affect the falsity of Kant's statement or of mine. If you want to shitpost, go to one of the several designated shitposting boards and threads to do so.
>>8292133
False, you saying thing is wrong has no impact. You're a non-entity in comparison to God.
>>8292151
> MOMMA I MADE A FOOL OUT OF MYSELF
> HA, LUCKILY HIS OPINIONS ARE IRRELEVANT!
no, seriously, stop with this shitty b8.
>>8292151
You haven't explained why Kant is fallacious so it is impossible for me to argue against you.
It is incorrect to say you have read Steve Harvey on two levels: It is incorrect to do in the context of replying to me, since I wasn't telling you to read Steve Harvey, I was calling you Steve Harvey. It is incorrect to say rhetorically because he fucking agrees with you, you are saying the exact things Steve Harvey says just slightly more well formulated and equally retarded.
>>8292151
>You literally cannot have any moral compass as an atheist because you have no place to measure from.
So you're saying Buddhists don't have a moral compass?
>>8292151
How do you know what God's 'true' morals are? If your answer is The Bible, then who wrote it? How has it stayed perfectly unchanged for thousands of years?
>>8292211
Replace morality with will, and the challenge still remains, you are avoiding the question.
>>8292214
It's irrelevant is why.
You might wanna check out Buddhism or Taoism.
>>8292211
What edition do you subscribe to? What about Allah, and Jehovah, and Yahweh? Are they not all the same God? Is Jesus really God's incarnation, or a prophet?
>>829222
Is this the only argument,
What you deem to be irrelevant?
If I believe god irrelevant would I not be correct by your logic?
>>8292211
>Yes
If that's the case I'm not sure if morality in an objective sense has any sort of value or validity. For the most part, the Buddhist moral precepts mirror those of Judeo-Christian values. In fact, there are some instances where Buddhist may be said to be more compassionate or empathetic than Christians. For instance, dedicated Buddhists traditionally swear to pacifism and vegetarianism. This is a result of their belief in Karma. Karma works much like God's decision to allot a being's soul to heaven or hell. Additionally, they have constructed laws (the Eightfold Path) to negotiate the operations of Karma in the best possible way.
In other words, they have both a rule system and an incentive to follow those rules. Their rule system happens to resemble a Judeo-Christian worldview quite closely.
So my questions to you are these:
- Why do you think a god has to have made the rules that govern the universe; why is Karma an insufficient model from which to derive morality? To me, agency has nothing to do with the validity or invalidity of the order of the universe.
- If Buddhists, for all intents and purposes, follow the same principle teachings of Christianity; compassion, preservation of truth, avoidance of damaging behaviors; excepting worshiping of the Judeo-Christian god, how do you interpret that they have no moral compass? For instance, if you were to encounter them, and they showed you immense kindness, but you had no way of conversing with them to find out whether they were doing so out of Buddhist or Christian teachings, why would it matter if the result was the same?
>>8291555
No. Life, and the world, must be experienced, to be experienced.
>>8292225
Irrelevant
>>8292247
>If that's the case I'm not sure if morality in an objective sense has any sort of value or validity.
My goodness are you stupid.
>- If Buddhists, for all intents and purposes, follow the same principle teachings of Christianity
They don't.
One can be virtuous and amoral you idiot. Here's a better example than your half-assed one: a religion that is EXACTLY like Christianity, somehow in every aspect save for they are technically atheistic, exists. This religion is virtuous but has no moral compass.
Learn to read before posting.
>>8292261
You didn't answer any of the questions in that post.
Learn to read before posting.
>>8292247
>follow the same principle teachings of Christianity; compassion, preservation of truth,
I'm sorry, what version of christianity is this?
Having soent 38 years in the church, I have yet to hear of this as an imperative in any denominatiin.
>>8292266
There were no questions to answer because it was built entirely on false premises and did not even interpret my argument correctly.
If somebody retorted 'are you a faggot?' to my post, should I also answer that question? No you fuckhead because it's irrelevant.
>>8292277
If you read the post in its entirety it would be clear that your response was out of context.
>>8292277
So, you make an assentation, yet fail to provide proof, physical or philosophical, to support your claims? What's more you complain of fallacys. What circle was it that hypocrites went?
>>8292276
> I'm sorry, what version of christianity is this?
Having soent 38 years in the church, I have yet to hear of this as an imperative in any denominatiin.
That's extremely sad. I hope you're trolling. If not, you've been totally misled your entire life and I'm sorry.
> “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
-Jesus
>>8292320
>I did, I think you're just upset.
Please answer the following questions to the best of your ability:
- Why do you think a god has to have made the rules that govern the universe; why is Karma an insufficient model from which to derive morality?
- If Buddhists, for all intents and purposes, follow the same principle teachings of Christianity; compassion, preservation of truth, avoidance of damaging behaviors; excepting worshiping of the Judeo-Christian god, how do you interpret that they have no moral compass?
>>8292320
Ah, ad hominin.
I will wave your passage through limbo on the way to the 8th circle of hell.
>>8292326
>- Why do you think a god has to have made the rules that govern the universe; why is Karma an insufficient model from which to derive morality?
Are you presupposing the existence of Karma here?
>If Buddhists, for all intents and purposes, follow the same principle teachings of Christianity
This is a false statement. I also answered this already, you just ignored it because it upset you.
>>8292335
That's not ad hominem.
>>8291555
Learn to meditate and take mushrooms occasionally. And for your own sake, unlearn your cynicism. Realise how little you actually know, philosophy can help you there. Epistemology general, Hume on inference and Berkely's immaterialism are all great help in deconstructing that illusion of knowledge.
>>8292339
You attack my character rather than my argument, read, ad hominin.
>>8291607
Made me kek.
Antideps+therapy OP
>>8292339
>Are you presupposing the existence of Karma here?
No more than you are presupposing the existence of God here. If you would like, you could use your "Just like Christianity but no God" thought experiment. But I would prefer you would stick to Buddhism if you have enough brain cells.
>This is a false statement. I also answered this already, you just ignored it because it upset you.
Okay then. To put it into your terms, what distinguishes the virtuous from the moral and why is morality necessary if virtue is present?
>>8292350
Empiricism isn't your character.
>>8292353
I'm not presupposing the existence of God because God need not exist to have an influence.
>But I would prefer you would stick to Buddhism if you have enough brain cells.
Awww, he's insulting me because he's wrong.
>To put it into your terms, what distinguishes the virtuous from the moral and why is morality necessary if virtue is present?
Virtue is substanceless morality. I don't know how you can be so ignorant as to think a religion that A. has nothing to do with Christianity and is not similar in any way somehow is 'the same'; and B. somehow having the same moral compass despite rejecting the existence of the entity that provides the moral compass.
I would suggest abandoning your poor example.
>>8292362
>>8292362
>I'm not presupposing the existence of God because God need not exist to have an influence.
Karma need not either. Karma is traditionally believed to occur on a different plane of reality, beyond human understanding, in a realm of "omnipotence" much like your concept of God.
Your concept of God as being "beyond existence" has its own problems. There's still a clear belief you are holding that "God exists". If God transcended the boundary of existence and non-existence, he would both exist and not exist, and therefore you would both have and not have a moral compass. Therefore you would both have and not have morality. If that's the case then morality both does and does not matter. In essence, if you can't nail down the fact that your God exists, you cannot nail down your own morality, or even whether you are right or not about anything you could possibly think.
>Virtue is substanceless morality.
So are you telling me that Morality is Virtue + A Moral Compass?
>>8292379
No it isn't, you understand Buddhism as well as you understand Christianity
>he would both exist and not exist, and therefore you would both have and not have a moral compass.
How is this a problem
>So are you telling me that Morality is Virtue + A Moral Compass?
Morality is a directed virtue with an ends. A virtue otherwise is blind and vain.
>>8292383
>How is this a problem
The real problem is here:
> Therefore you would both have and not have morality.
It signifies that very action conducted is both moral and immoral. Whether you kill, steal, give to the homeless, or cure cancer, all actions you can take are in the same way both moral and immoral. Likewise, both those who believe in God and don't believe in God are in the same way both moral and immoral, because God both embodies and doesn't embody his negative counterpart, and therefore, atheists both do and do not believe in God, just like you.
>>8292420
There you go, presuming again.
>>8292420
Yes, this is the basic idea. Why do you think they always say Satan is just acting in God's plan in the end? Everything that happens is the will of the omnipotent God and goes towards his master plan, even things done directly to resist him. Fate and God are literally the same thing in the Christian conception, granted that they think this final Fate is generally good for humans and reflects God having pity.
>>8291555
You clearly believe in God. Just admit it. You detest the world in its degenerate state, and worship the "sense of wonder," the imaginative other world, the kingdom of Heaven, where "everything is vibrant and I feel happy," Stop calling yourself and atheist unless you want to live and die alone through eternity.
>>8292450
Just because you can imagine something doesn't mean it's real, anon.
Our senses are tuned by evolution to always seek the greatest positive change, because we can only detect things relatively, not objectively. So, even with a situation of perfect happiness, the human mind will still seek more. The only hope for humanity is for everyone to find the perfect arc of sadness-fulfillment-happiness and then pass into whatever lies beyond.
>>8292456
>Our senses are tuned by evolution
Evolution is a myth.
>>8292439
If you like living in a world where fact is a matter of opinion, it sounds like a wonderful ideology. Have fun with that.
>>8292461
You're a myth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSrL0BXsO40
>>8292464
Can you prove that your perception is fact? It's just chemicals in your brain. Whether or not you choose to have faith that your perception is true, it's all you have to act on and your action can only be directed by it or in spite of it. There is no other axis.
>>8292072
>positivist
yes, I guess you could say I am a positivist, unless I'm being tricked. I only believe in natural explanations for things, because all supernatural explanation is simply a rhetorical answer to an unsolved question.
>>8292519
The point is that the question is still unsolved, it just tries to persuade you otherwise. >why are we here? Why god of course > what causes consciousness: why a soul of course
It's all the same thing dude. That kind of shit doesn't fool me and I'm kind of baffled that there's actually people who think this way. I grew out of that sort of thinking when I was like 12.
>>8292519
Well, that's kind of what I was implying. Whether you are or you aren't, here you are. Someone has to do something about it eventually.
God is man's attempt for a simple answer to a complicated question. There's questions we don't have the answers to, but some people crave security and a sense of resolution, so they turn to believe in god against all rational behavior; they reject the pursuit of knowledge and they opt for the easy answers.
>>8292534
>There are no answers to any questions, stop deluding yourself you filthy empiricist; it's just pride. Filthy reductionist.
Why the hell do I even bother arguing with you people.
>I don't know the answers to questions, therefor rationality is impossible
what the fuck, you can't be serious.
>>8292525
As a side note, the idea of Nirvana isn't actually just realizing you and the universe are interchangeable and then becoming one with it by removing the human limitation of suffering. When you realize this, it's still in the context of the universe: it's refuting the universe and creating suffering in a new layer, not accepting the universe and nullifying suffering. That's part of the Zen Buddhist idea of manual labor: if you truly achieved Nirvana, your outlook wouldn't actually change at all. You just sort of are and then aren't.All this brings me back to playing Morrowind, which was my introduction to stuff like this. It's more fun in a game than real life, to be honest.
>>8292534
>Why?
Because life is pretty long, dude. It'd suck to just wait around forever without committing to anything material. I'm not saying hedonism is necessarily the right way to live, but in the end you're responsible for enforcing your own moral code. It definitely has been more fulfilling for me so far to not worry about existence and instead focus on creative expression. There's something liberating about taking something like theories of existence and the meaning of life and turning them into dumb little stories and songs and whatever.
>>8292541
>Why the hell do I even bother arguing with you people.
how DARE you question my ideology!
>I don't know the answers to questions, therefor rationality is impossible
Wow your so rational, defending it so emotionally and putting words into my mouth.
There are no answers and no questions, rationality is blatantly irrational; stop deluding yourself otherwise.
>>8292542
Oh, you're just a /v/tard.
>>8292507
>Whether or not you choose to have faith that your perception is true, it's all you have to act on and your action can only be directed by it or in spite of it. There is no other axis.
The Christian perspective being put forward in this thread is far more destructive than you're giving it credit for. It's fundamentally incompatible with what you are proposing.
It's as close to "retarded" as 4chan could ever get.
It's Yale School Deconstruction tier.
>>8292552
Shut up troll.
>>8292551
>but in the end you're responsible for enforcing your own moral code.
Why? You have no moral code because you are an evil being.
>It'd suck to just wait around forever without committing to anything material.
What you think or want doesn't matter.
>Because life is pretty long,
No it's not, it's ephemeral.
>It definitely has been more fulfilling for me so far to not worry about existence and instead focus on creative expression
Because you don't actually care and just want immediate gratification.
Your entire post is just: "ME ME MEMEEMEMEMEMEEMEME"
>>8292552
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_36_Lessons_of_Vivec
Morrowind is barely even a game; it's a frontend for some crazy alcoholic's community worldbuilding project, and it's fucking beautiful.
>>8292559
How can you say life is ephemeral? If you're the average age of someone on 4chan, you're in your teens to 20s; that's barely a quarter of your potential life, and people are living longer and longer now. Think of how much you and your opinions have changed since your life started, and even in the past 5 years. There is SO FUCKING MUCH to do in life, and even that will probably only scratch the surface of what is possible. I don't think you have the right to call life ephemeral until you've actually tried to do something and failed. I think it's more likely that you didn't do something and considered that failure.
>>8292561
What happened to make you this way, anon?
>>8292566
I'm 28.
>HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING I DONT LIKE
Life is ephemeral, do you not know what ephemeral means?
>>8292561
>dude its bad because i dont like it ITS SO FUCKING DEGENERATE KEKOLDED LIBTARDED
If you believe the things you've said in this thread about rationality and about the transcendental nature of God then why don't you just kill yourself to prove to us how deeply you hold these beliefs, as a proof of concept. Because at this point I'm convinced you're just arguing for the sake of argument.
>>8292568
He got btfo like 20 posts ago and instead of graciously accepting defeat he has become indignant.
this thread really devolved into some dumb fucking arguments. Religious people ruin everything.
>>8292570
Ephemeral means it disappears quickly; unless you've found a way to shitpost from the afterlife, yours hasn't disappeared yet.
Captcha really likes store fronts.
>>8292572
>He got btfo like 20 posts ago
Not at all, why do you continue to delude yourself?
>If you believe the things you've said in this thread about rationality and about the transcendental nature of God then why don't you just kill yourself to prove to us how deeply you hold these beliefs, as a proof of concept
DUDE KILL YOURSELF FOR THINKING THING THAT DOESNT FIT INTO MY IDEOLOGY HAHA IM A HUMANIST BUT YOU SHOULD DIE BECAUSE I SAID SO
>>8292574
dude these arguments are dumb because i dont like them
>>8292576
It's a blink, how is that not ephemeral?
>>8291555
>I am an atheist
The rest of your post says otherwise, my boy.
>>8292578
>dude these arguments are dumb because i dont like them
coming from the person who rejects rationality and uses that as the basis of his argument. DUUUDEE WEEEEEW EVERYTHING IS SOOOO UNEXPLAINABLE MAN WEEEEEEW RATIONALITY CAN'T BE TRUSTED shut the fuck up you fucking troll. you have no idea how ridiculous you sound. stop using this thread to fill it with your shit, I don't want to see it, it's an absolute waste of fucking time. you're worse than a fucking stoner.
>>8292578
Can you call your entire life so far one blink, let alone the entire rest of your life?
If you want to talk about something that really is ephemeral, think philosophy. Do you think any of us are going to give a shit about the arguments in this thread tomorrow? Nothing really creative has come of it yet.
>>8292578
>Not at all, why do you continue to delude yourself?
Why do you?
>DUDE KILL YOURSELF FOR THINKING THING THAT DOESNT FIT INTO MY IDEOLOGY HAHA IM A HUMANIST BUT YOU SHOULD DIE BECAUSE I SAID SO
I'm asking you as a proof of concept. Like I said I think you're just ranting at this point, so I have devised an exercise for you to perform to prove to us that you are serious. Granted, we will not be able to continue to converse, but rest assured I will hold your opinion much higher than anything you could possibly say, for instance, in all capital letters as a means of deprecating me. If you truly hold the beliefs you claim to hold, this task should be trivial, though for me would be quite symbolic and moving. After all, a Buddhist would go so far as to put his life on the line to convey his moral convictions. Also I'm also not humanist.
>>8292579
Yeah, I read them. I stand by what I said.
>>8292581
dude he sounds like a fucking HIPPIE so hes wrong im right hes also a troll and sounds dumb and OBVIOUSLY anyone that sounds dumb must be dumb because i said so
I use rationality to speak your language, otherwise what could I do?
>>8292584
This is false but okay, you go ahead and think that you egocentric twerp.
>>8292588
>proof of a concept
What concept? Are you illiterate or just painfully stupid?
>a Buddhist would go so far as to put his life on the line to convey his moral convictions.
So have countless Christian martyrs; how is this relevant? You only hold Quang Duc's death so closely because it is more modern and is recorded.
Why would I prove anything to you? Why do I need to prove anything?
Why do you teenagers always go for Buddhism just because it's shallowly portrayed in your games?
>>8292599
>Why do you teenagers always go for Buddhism just because it's shallowly portrayed in your games?
escape
OP needs to cry.
Were your parents religious?
Were they there for you?
Did they divorce?
Are they happy?
Do they understand you?
Do you feel isolated?
>>8292609
>OP needs to cry.
>Were your parents religious?
grrrr fucking hell. yes, they brought me to church. I did this thing called thinking for myself.
>Were they there for you?
yes, more than most parents, again, I have what's called a mind, and your equating my thoughts to somehow meaning that I've been neglected as a child is extremely condescending.
>Did they divorce?
No
>Are they happy?
Sure, I guess.
>Do they understand you?
About as much as any parent understands their kid, I guess.
>Do you feel isolated?
From other people in the world? Yes. I feel like I can't relate to most people, I'm waiting for an amazing experience where I feel like I can connect to others, but it's never happened.
>>8292599
The Christian Martyrs aren't claiming that Buddhism is morally vacant; YOU are claiming that Buddhism is morally vacant. Yet you won't go as far as they would to exercise virtue, that is, to live your life in accordance to your beliefs. What value does morality have without virtue?
Don't prove it to us, prove it to yourself. If you really believe everything you've said you believe, go the extra mile to prove, to the world, to God, to yourself, that you believe it.
Otherwise you're just some asshat spewing shit on the internet.
>>8292599
The reason you can even speak at all is because people invented language using RATIONALITY. The reason you can make a response at all, and have an idea that you're supposed to hit the keys in order to make a response as opposed to, lay on the ground and flop around like a fish, IS BECAUSE can you guess what the cause of that is? Can you get a sense of where I'm going with this? IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE USING _____________. What is the blank word anon? Fill in the blank word.
>>8292615
>one buddhist represents all buddhists
Sorry that the truth triggers you.
Buddhism is objectively morally vacant, you dislike it because you have some fleeting interest in it like every teenager.
>>8291555
I was like this a lot. What helped me was that I met a person who embraced life in many different ways, none of which on a human societal level. That was where I went wrong: focusing on how humans have made the world and how we live. There are amazing things humans have done, but that isn't what is inherent to this earth. Figure out what this earth has to offer without what humans have done. Read some Emerson. Transcendentalism is really good stuff. Reading it doesn't mean you have to give up everything you own and live in the woods, but to be exposed to that sort of thinking can be life changing.
>>8292619
Wow, you don't understand epistemology do you?
A Marxist can old an apartment complex in New York and still be a Marxist.
>>8292622
WHAT'S THE BLANK WORD ANON?
>>8292613
>I did this thing called thinking for myself
Plenty of Christians think for themselves and plenty of atheists don't. Relax. I respect your nihilism.
>and your equating my thoughts to somehow meaning that I've been neglected as a child is extremely condescending.
Wasn't implying that. Just trying to get a feel from where you're coming from.
I was just hoping these questions might get us a little bit closer to whatever sort of despair is you have going on, not that it can be "solved" or whatever.
Do you read Kierkegaard?
I mean dude I grew up in the rural south HATING Christianity. I thought it was always the Christians that were the most hypocritical and least "Christ-like" or whatever. I've traveled some and gotten away from my home town and found more respect for Christianity since. It's very troublesome though. I want to be a apart of a bigger Christian community which can be very important to the religion but it seems like all of the churches have sold out. I still retain all of my nihilism but keep the Christian story and path with me and am happy to do it.
>>8292620
One buddhist doesn't need to represent all buddhists. One buddhist just needs to be better than you. And he is.
Deal with it.
>Buddhism is objectively morally vacant
No.
> you dislike it because you have some fleeting interest in it like every teenager.
Whether you're a troll or not, you have spent this entire thread wasting your time creating poorly orchestrated arguments and heckling your opponents. In other words, you have wasted your time. You may think you're wasting your time here but most of us are trying to find new and better ways to express ideas to you, and to that end we are improving ourselves, and our writing, which is what /lit/ is all about. That's something that you will never achieve with these jeering, irrational, angry posts and denialism. Maybe you are, in fact, throwing your life away to prove a point, but in your own way.
>>8292620
Morals are objectively vacant in and of themselves. You can't touch them. You can't see them. They are products of the human mind, like unicorns. But at least unicorns don't spur their advocates to inflict suffering.
>>8292613
>I did this thing called thinking for myself.
You haven't thought for yourself a single time in your life.
>>8292631
He's not, he's evil.
>poorly orchestrated arguments
No hun, they're perfectly constructed, you just dislike the implications of them.
>That's something that you will never achieve with these jeering, irrational, angry posts and denialism.
Projecting.
Goodness, are you pathetic.
>improving ourselves
Why is improvement good?
oh yeah 'muh feels' thats the most rational thing ive ever heard you truly are enlightened
>>8292635
False, they're the will of an absolute and just being.
>But at least unicorns don't spur their advocates to inflict suffering.
I see you don't understand Christianity still, yet claim to be an expert. And I'm the stupid one here.
Please go back to /v/.
You have no clue how often I see this, arrogant little teenies spouting their anti-christian rhetoric and acting like experts while having the comprehension of it, and everything they hold dear, of a toddler.
>>8292641
So many words, so little content. Would the world be better off if you ate poison? Would anyone even notice?
>False, they're the will of an absolute and just being.
Prove it.
>Projecting.
Prove it!
>He's not, he's evil.
Loving every laugh. Good luck proving that one.
>And I'm the stupid one here.
Masterfully proved.
>>8292651
>so little content
Because you're illiterate.
>Would the world be better off if you ate poison?
dude kill yourself for dragging my ass through the gravel your so dumb and stupid and butthurt and im so smart and rational and my butt isn't exposed muscle at all also YOUR A LOOSER AND NO ONE LOVES YOU AND EVERYONE LOVES ME BECAUSE IM SO OBJECTIVE AND VIRTUOUS AND RATIONAL
>dude prove these things DUDE EVERYTHING CAN BE PROVEN DUDE HAHAHA
>>8292658
The Committee of Comment Awards hereby awards you, the poster of this comment, with the Least Intelligent Comment of All Time award, partly because it would be too psychologically detrimental to review this thread to elect the most idiotic comment from the remarkable pile of unintelligible pseudo-intellectual drivel you've generated in record time. We are absolutely astounded by your performance and congratulate you on your achievement. If we could, we would give this award to your entire participation in this thread. The fact you can even sustain your biological processes well enough to stay alive has unanimously baffled the panel. Your mommy must love you very much.
A round of applause, everyone, for this unbelievable gentleman!
kek'd
>>8292662
dude epic meme pasta post xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
>>8291555
Stop being a bitch.
>>8292670
Hold up my man nobody asked for an encore.
>>8292658
>he thinks he's arguing with one person
Jousting with phantoms, I see! But that's the Christian mode, to see things that aren't there.
>le sarcasm face makes me immune to criticism >:)
Quite Christian of you, to be so duplicitous, callous, and small-hearted. Enjoy Hell :)
>>8292681
>Quite Christian of you, to be so duplicitous, callous, and small-hearted.
>Enjoy Hell :)
Okay your parents obviously don't love you enough if they've allowed you to become this much of a faggot.
>>8292681
Stop shitposting, please.
>>8292719
Projecting, like you have this entire thread.
>>8292722
Stop Projecting.
>>8292722
This is a bad post
>>8292722
>I'm not a sinner!
laughingwomeneatingsalad.jpg
>>8292735
I never said this, don't put words into my mouth
>>8292749
>Words
>Mouth
>Putting
>I
Nigga get /woke/ this shit ain't real like damn son are you dense
This shits made up by jews and shit
When you going to get enlightened
Motherfucker
I'm having to step like 300 planes of /wokedness/ just to bring you this one motherfuckin message in a wavelength you can fuckin comprehend
Free your mind nigga
Shit son
Is joining the french foreign legion or some other regimented military service branch a good idea for a depressed person?
>>8291586
Not OP, but I second this. I read Siddhartha last summer and I'm almost through Myth of Sisyphus now. Siddhartha gave me a good high and Myth of Sisyphus brought me back down to earth with something with a bit more depth. These are good suggestions OP. Maybe start with Siddhartha since it's a quick read, but it a couple reads might be needed.
>>8293086
which translation did you read?
In my opinion, the best way to do it is to seperate yourself from all technology. Take a ten-mile walk and leave your phone at home.
Maybe god is punishing you for not trusting in him. all my atheist friends act just like you and end up turning to heroin and barely functioning in life
