What is the oldest story involving a gay romance ever told?
homosexuality is a modern invention
Plato - Symposium is the oldest one I can think of but I'm sure there's older examples
Herakles and Hylas in the Argonautica is fairly explicit in it's sexual romance between two men, in addition to the crush Orpheus has on one of the Boreads who join the Argonauts.
>>8146815
the term homosexuality is a modern term, the feelings and behavior are not.
>>8146823
Maybe you confine this feeling and behavior to reductionist modern terms that these acts don't really adhere to though.
The Iliad. Achilles and Patroclus were lovers. Fite me.
David and Jonathan in the Bible
Achilles and Patroclus in the Iliad
And on & on & on
>>8146808
Genesis 3
>>8146808
sappho? not sure of timeline
>>8146808
Gay romance doesn't exist, gay sex is just mutual masturbation.
The famous greek "gay" stories like Akhilleus and Patroclus are actually just male friendships, a rarity and somewhat maligned phenomenon in the post-industrial and post-feminist world.
>>8146851
What?
>>8146826
If there are people who have exclusive heterosexual and homosexual feelings now then surely the same would apply to back then, the only difference is that some may have acted against their instinct, such as was the case for gay men centuries ago who unhappily married women, just because that was what society expected. Human behavior has remained the same, the only thing that has changed is terminology and technology.
>>8146855
Got to love when the Protestants try and "clean up" any and every story to try and make it look like homosexuality is something new and invented.
Go back to /pol/ you protestant heretic.
>>8146841
Why did they both have extremely passionate romances with women while they both also loved one another then?
>>8146855
Romance doesn't exist desu, its just a way to justify the chemicals in your brain telling you to fuck and raise children. If people just apply those feelings to the same sex then whats the harm?
>>8146855
>gay sex is just mutual masturbation.
Are you retarded? You clearly don't know the mechanisms of sex or the multiple ways people have sex, and if sex requires reproduction then every sterile heterosexual couple or couple who wears condoms is simply partaking in mutual masturbation as well.
Jeez, here is a glaring example of the American Educational system folks.
Gilgamesh and Enkidu
>>8146860
That's an ignorant conception of the human experience anon, as we are clearly more simplistic and ignorant in regards to human expression now than we were in the ancient world
>>8146863
This is theost ignorant perception the modern world has foisted upon humanity. Do you seriously not understand how fucking absurd what you just said is anon?
>>8146862
Because believe it or not, one can in fact love another person beyond base carnal lust.
It's just that ever since the advent of industrial society and the dissolution of village living, having strong and good friendships, that is to say love other men has become verboten.
>>8146861
Only if you stop reading everything with your lens of so-called "queer theory".
>>8146860
>Human behavior has remained the same, the only thing that has changed is terminology and technology.
Television = Schizophrenia
Air pollution = Fucked endocrine system
Stress of modern living = Increased cortisol, lowered test, possibly higher estradiol
Not to mention the tendency, following the birth of industry and the nuclear family to associate love and companionship w/ sex due to a lack of fulfilling male friendship/camraderie
>>8146873
>chemicals in the brain are absurd
This is why I pray for the American education system.
>>8146879
Achilles and Patroclus were not lovers, is what I was getting at. They loved each other, but they didn't have sex
>>8146859
The snake is an allegory for homosexuality
>>8146879
>Because believe it or not, one can in fact love another person beyond base carnal lust.
So why is gay love illegitimate and only counts as masterbation
>accuses of being an ideologue
>is an ideologue
>television =schziophrenia
What the actual fuck
>>8146884
In other words, they were good friends, which is exactly what I'm getting at. Following ca. the 19th century, this notion that a deep and intense friendship between two men must necessarily be homosexual, retroactively applying it to classical depictions of male friendship.
I think you can easily see how damaging and absurd that is.
>>8146883
You seriously barely understand how the human consciousness works in any regard, yet you've developed a ridiculous sense of arrogance in regards to your perceived knowledge of it. We do not experience love as some kind of placebo to make us reproduce. Reproduction is infact among the lowest and most insignificant aspects of human sexuality. You are dogmatically adherent to a reductionist conception of human sexuality that literally only serves to reject all meaningful and uniquely human aspects of sex, yet you'll talk like you're some kind of exlert in these matters when6all you're actually doing is spouting off hilariously ignorant thoughts that yiu don't even realize make you look like a fool
>>8146884
Do you have any evidence they specifically didn't fuck? Because Greeks fucked all the time according to historical evidence.
>>8146900
But they didn't according to historical evidence it was also looked down on, especially if you were the bottom, plato ridiculed the men who did it, telling them GROW UP.
>>8146885
Brokeback Mount Olympus.
Am I rite
>>8146898
So people can fuck for reasons other than reproduction or carnal lust. And yet gays cant? Your own logic doesn't make sense bro
>>8146902
So they did and enjoyed it so uch Plato specifically had to mention it? But homosexual relationships are only a modern invention?
I love when bigots dont have any sense of logic :)
>>8146869
This. Modern society is a giant onion. The Greeks and other early civilizations are the closest we can get to the core.
Macchiavelli describes his italy as a different world than roman italy due to Christianity. We have that plus the enlightenment, plus post-modernism to peel back to get to what is "natural" or not. "Homosexuality" and sexual orientation did not exist to the Greeks (who more less stuck their d in anything), so it should be viewed with skepticism.
>>8146900
Yes, as I've actually read the Iliad several times and understand the dynamic between the characters in a great deal of depth. Achilles was a God who had motherly affection towards Patroclus, who spoiled and doted on him as his favored mortal. You're basing your entire belief of their homosexuality on anachronistic perceptions that don't apply to the Iliad in any way
>>8146902
You are quite unread.
>>8146905
Homosexuality is an immoral and unnatural act: it's pure narcissism and iniquity.
>>8146905
I literally implied the exact opposite of that anon, that all human sexuality, including the sexuality between two men, is far more complex than desiring reproduction
>>8146911
You mistake homosexuality as sodomy.
Sodomy has always existed.
Homosexuality, as some sort of inherent identity as well as romantic love between two men are modern inventions.
Men have fucked other men forever.
Men deluding themselves into thinking that fucking needs recognition from others and wanting a long term relationship (which even now doesn't happen) is very new.
>>8146913
Are you sure you aren't just placing your own perspective into the narrative? You are claiming ALL classical literature is devoid of legitimate homosexual relationships. That seems like your own ideological assessment
>>8146923
>Men deluding themselves into thinking that fucking needs recognition
Which is different from wanting to engage with another man romantically. I mean, you yourself said that carnal lust is one of the shittiest aspect of human sezuallity, why cant people be romantic homosexuallity? That's on you to demonstrate friend
>>8146924
I'm speaking very specifically of Achilles and Patroclus anon
>>8146919
The thought that homosexuality is immoral stems entirely from Jewish thought. Christians got it from the Jews as well as the Muslims.
Go spread your Torah elsewhere.
>>8146866
i dont remember them fucking each other
>>8146928
The original Mycenaeans were Israeli pilgrims anon
>>8146924
But it is devoid of homosexual relationships. There isn't a single one.
Friendship isn't cranal love and fervent friendship has been a theme reoccurring in Greek and Roman literature a lot. But it was never either sodomy (which it might have been, but it wasn't) or romantic love between two men (because the very idea was to most men for thousands of years something completely nonsensical).
So the oldest homosexual relationship in a story probably dates 60 years back.
>>8146926
>Which is different from wanting to engage with another man romantically.
It has appeared simultaneously in culture.
>I mean, you yourself said that carnal lust is one of the shittiest aspect of human sezuallity, why cant people be romantic homosexuallity?
I didn't. I don't think it's shitty in itself, but in case of sodomy it literally is.
>That's on you to demonstrate friend
I don't think there has never been a passion between two men before the 50s, but it did not appear in literature as such before that time. >>8146928
No, virtue ethics and Aristotle.
>>8146927
That's cool but earlier you or someone else claimed that ALL classical references to homosexuality precluded romance and romance itself is mutually exclusive with homosexuality. So you dealt with one story but you bigots have a tal order
>>8146934
Doesn't Plato in the Symposium talk about romantic and sexual relationships involve us trying to find our other halves? And gay men are in fact the maniliest?
>>8146934
>in case of sodomy it literally is.
Why?
>>8146942
He does, but it's more related to boy love. He's pretty contradictory to himself so it changes depending on the book.
>>8146946
So its not completely devoid of love or romance, so the Greeks do in fact deal with homosexuality in this sense
>>8146951
If you wish to include homosexual pedophilia to it, sure.
>>8146808
Why can't people just answer a simple question without feeling the need to divulge their very lengthy opinions on the subject at hand without answering the question.
Why must we live in the era where everyone assumes everyone else cares about your personal attitudes, feelings, or opinions? I know I couldn't give a crap about what any of you think.
>>8146808
Hardly the first, but Satyricon by Petronius, considered perhaps the first novel ever, is about a roman noble and his boy lover. Probably the most fleshed out gay love story I've ever read from so long ago, and it's also a fantastic account of systematic homosexuality in rome. The book is overall hilarious and features all sorts of deviant sexuality including femdom and use of dildos.
>>8146959
I think it's because the new generation, or millenials if you will are entitled and all feel they are special, and so they feel that their opinions must matter. Thank you Mister Rogers for putting it into the minds of countless autists that they are special and ought to share that specialness with the world.
>>8146855
Move out of Northern Lousiana and meet an actual gay person. They will tell you differently.
>>8146863
>its just a way to justify the chemicals in your brain telling you to fuck and raise children.
the chemicals does not exits, unless you are an undergraduate believing in scientific realism.
chemicals is a way to justify the chemicals in your brain telling you to fuck and raise children.
>>8146971
All the homosexuals who indulge in sex I've met were like primitive animals, looking only for the next fuck and their relationships never lasted longer than two years, and those had massive amounts of cheating.
>>8146973
>unless you are an undergraduate believing in scientific realism
Would you...not do that?
>>8146815
>>8146968
>gays are autistics that just want to feel special
>listen to my rant about literature on a 4chan board
>>8146979
Because you are a platonist, aristotelian, christian, kantian, cartesian etc.
>>8146974
This is different from heterosexuality how? And keep in mind that the infamous "gay underground" of yesteryear, a scene built from adversity, is still dissolving. Old gay culture was kept under wraps, and in many places was criminal, so of course there are still traces of promiscuity and relationships built on nothing more than sex exploration. Just like bootlegged liquor is more likely to give you alcohol poisoning.
>>8146808
The epic of Gilgamesh.
>>8146984
Wants Aristotle an empiricist who would praise our advances in understanding the physical world? Including the chemicals in our heads?
>>8146974
We're all animals, to think otherwise is called snowflake syndrome.
>>8146993
>We're all animals
Speak for yourself.
>>8146997
Whatever you say Aristotle.
>>8146974
>homosexuals who indulge in sex
out of curiosity how many homosexuals do you know who don't "indulge" (lol) in sex?
>>8146982
the post you are responding to is correct
>>8146985
>This is different from heterosexuality how?
Because here marriage is still a thing.
>And keep in mind that the infamous "gay underground" of yesteryear, a scene built from adversity, is still dissolving.
No, it's stronger than it used to be, at least here.
>Old gay culture was kept under wraps, and in many places was criminal, so of course there are still traces of promiscuity and relationships built on nothing more than sex exploration.
That's how it's always going to function.
Homosexuality is inherently promiscuous and you will never see the day where homosexual relationship will mirror a marriage.
>Just like bootlegged liquor is more likely to give you alcohol poisoning.
It's been 50 years without bootleg and it's only getting more deviant than it used to.
>>8147001
3
>>8147003
Are they Preists?
>>8147002
homosexuality has been existing since we got sexual organs, even other mamals and reptiles show that behaviour.
The word may be a modern invention but not the behaviour it refers too, so the content of his post isn't correct.
>>8147009
>having sex with the same gender is homosexual
wew
>>8147008
No, but they are Catholics.
>>8147009
>behaviour it refers too
it refers to isn't*
sorry, quick typing
>>8147003
you know three fags who don't have sex? Did they tell you this or are you just assuming because they don't have hankys in their back pockets? where the fuck do you live man?
>>8147012
don't be silly anon, you're going retard
>>8147016
>you know three fags who don't have sex?
Yes, believe it or not religious beliefs are a strong thing.
>Did they tell you this or are you just assuming because they don't have hankys in their back pockets?
They told me that because we were talking about it. It's pretty simple.
>where the fuck do you live man?
Why does it matter?
>>8147019
fact: all fags have sex all of the time.
fact: catholics lie about sex with boys constantly.
>>8147019
i'm guessing you live in ireland?
>>8147023
No.
>>8147003
>Because here marriage is still a thing.
Marriage is becoming an increasingly conservative and traditionalist ideal. "Hip" young people of any sexuality are avoiding it and going for all sorts of alternative relationships. The only difference between modern heterosexual people and homos, is homos were never given the option to do it in the first place like members of polite society.
>No, it's stronger than it used to be, at least here.
I'm not referring to people walking in parades or teenagers holding hands. Those are in fact the opposite of a gay underground. I'm talking about strangers fucking each other in the park, the huge urban communities which spawned the AIDS epidemic. The kind of shit behavior which is disappearing.
>It's been 50 years without bootleg and it's only getting more deviant than it used to.
50 years ago gay men invented the modern BDSM scene and had their porn produced by the meanest most violent mafia members. Now they chat with women's talk show hosts. The biggest cause of gay "degeneracy" has always been it's seperateness from normal society. Your claim that gay relationships are mutual masturbation, on the contrary gay individuals would prob view heterosex that way.
>>8147027
flyover?
>>8147027
if it's not important than just say where you live instead of being rude about it
>>8147031
Why does it matter?
>>8147038
I can't imagine a country in the world where
1. you would know three openly gay men who identify as catholics
2. these three are candid enough and comfortable enough talking about sexual matters (despite their catholicism) to inform you that they are celibate
i guess the candidness of the gay men suggests you live in the US, but idk, I just find point number 2 too strange to imagine
>>8146808
Umm probably some story about Alexander and Hephaestion.
>>8146808
Gilgamesh and Enkidu
>>8147028
>>Marriage is becoming an increasingly conservative and traditionalist ideal.
lel no
men accept more and more open marriage.
>>8146815
Hadrian and Antoninus
>>8147128
Hadrian was gay?
I dunno... James Deans biographies?
>>8146841
This was my answer
>>8146808
>OP is a faggot
It's central to Gilgamesh literally the first story we have. And the Illiiad which prior to Gilgamesh was our earliest story.
>>8146866
Came here to say that.
Zeus kidnapping Ganymede to get that boipuci
>>8146866
I came to say this too lmao. it's the first story ever and undeniably they are more than just two buds
>>8147328
>And the Illiiad
There were no gay romances
your grandfathers diary desu
>>8146913
>Achilles was a God who had motherly affection towards Patroclus, who spoiled and doted on him as his favored mortal.
Neat. Would you mind going into this some more? Nothing to do with the homosexual idea or anything, I'm just curious to know why you say "motherly" affection, as opposed to just being very good friends.
>>8146808
There's sodomy in the ancient Egyptian story of Horus and Seth. That's like 5,000 years old. Source: John Gywn Griffiths
>>8149677
Homosexuality wasn't the sin of Sodom, as one scholar once put it, saying Sodom and Gommorah was about homosexuality is like saying a story of an axe murderer is about an axe. They wanted to rape the visitors as to humiliate them and dominate them, homosexuality was not the theme of the story.
>>8146879
that would not be gayness that would be bisexuality.
checkmate, fagtheists.
>>8146902
>it was also looked down on, especially if you were the bottom
this isn't true. The Romans were like that but not the Greeks, being the modern equivalent of a bisexual was normal in Greece. Also, even if that was true, it's not evidence that they weren't lovers especially since it's totally common for people in homosexual relationships to not engaging in penetrative acts, thereby negating the connotation that a "bottom" would receive (though still, the greeks did not have this mors the romans did)
>plato ridiculed the men who did it
[citation needed] in the original language not a 19th century English translation
there are actually fragments and excerpts from other greeks who speculated that Achilles and Patroclus were lovers, giving more credence to the interpretation and showing that it isn't a modern one.
>Against Timarchus, Aeschines
"Indeed, they say he will not even spare the poems of Homer or the names of the heroes, but will celebrate the friendship between Patroclus and Achilles, which, we are told, had its source in passion."
ὥς φασιν, οὐδὲ τῶν Ὁμήρου ποιημάτων οὐδὲ τῶν ὀνομάτων τῶν ἡρωιkῶν, ἀλλὰ kαὶ τὴν λεγομένην γενέσθαι φιλίαν δι᾽ ἔρωτα Πατρόkλου kαὶ Ἀχιλλέως ὑμνήσει,
>Plato, Symposium 179e
at the hands of women: whereas Achilles, son of Thetis, they honored and sent to his place in the Isles of the Blest,1 because having learnt from his mother that he would die as surely as he slew Hector,2 but if he slew him not, would return home and end his days an aged man, he bravely chose to go and rescue his lover Patroclus,
γενέσθαι, οὐχ ὥσπερ Ἀχιλλέα τὸν τῆς Θέτιδος ὑὸν ἐτίμησαν kαὶ εἰς μαkάρων νήσους ἀπέπεμψαν, ὅτι πεπυσμένος παρὰ τῆς μητρὸς ὡς ἀποθανοῖτο ἀποkτείνας Ἕkτορα, μὴ ποιήσας δὲ τοῦτο οἴkαδε ἐλθὼν γηραιὸς τελευτήσοι, ἐτόλμησεν ἑλέσθαι βοηθήσας τῷ ἐραστῇ Πατρόkλῳ kαὶ
>>8146913
You clearly have not looked at the original Greek if you think the dialogue between the two is "motherly". Even the Greeks thought it was Gay.
>>8150110
There are literally countless references of Achilles referring to Patroclus as if he is like his son and Achilles is his doting mother trying to take care of and spoil him with affection and gifts. Achilles lives his fantasies of being a mortal man vicariously through Patroclus, and because of this, he is deeply enamored with him and makes sure he has everything that he could ever want.
>>8150123
>There are literally countless references of Achilles referring to Patroclus as if he is like his son and Achilles
ok, so cite them, with the original greek as well, you can't go with just translations on these things you HAVE to look at the Greek
>>8146808
I've never understood why so many people get in an uproar over homosexuality or who fucks who, as long as it isn't rape, who the fuck cares?
I don't get it.
Choice or not, it's not like homosexuality is so rampant that it threatens to end the propagation of mankind.
Also it's great for women loving males, ad it reduces competition for females.
Homophobia, especially among straight guys has never made a lick of sense to me, it has always seemed rather self defeating and just plain autistic.
Why the fuck would you want more competition?
Humanity in of itself is inherently dumb.
>>8146841
Not in the Iliad.
>>8150129
Literally look up the scene in which Patroclus begs Achilles to think of the men of the Greek army as he sits idly by as the Trojan army over comes them. Come back here and post exactly what Achilles says to Patroclus.
>>8146823
>>8146815
Homosexuality as an identity--that is, as a type of essence that a person possesses, however you want to cash that out metaphysically--is absolutely a modern conceptual shift. People weren't "gay", they didn't act in such and such a way because "that's the way they were"; they just acted. Petroclus and Achilles weren't "gay lovers"; they were just lovers.
>>8150151
>Petroclus
petro-chemicals*, fuck.
>>8150151
this is the correct answer. We need to remember that our idea of sexuality is a modern one completely divorced from how the Greeks saw romance
>>8150151
Read a book about fags you fag lover.
>>8150187
You read a book*
>>8146883
pain is chemicals too, but I doubt you want me to kick you in the dick.
Gilgamesh and Enkindu by the silly criteria here, but if you mean actual sexual, Plato's dialogues have a lot of gay romance in them. The abduction of Ganymede is pretty gay, but that's not really about wooing or romance.
>>8150222
And what are the "silly criteria here"?
>>8150253
Extremely affectionate friendship, like with David and Jonathan.
Achilles and Patroclus is a bit justified, because the classical Greeks retconned it, but homosexuality is not present in Homer, certainly.
