have you rolled with the romans yet
>>7920208
>Continue with the Romans
>continue
>not Resume
>>7920208
Reading Comentarri de Bello Gallico atm senpai.
>>7920208
Livy da god
>>7920208
TFW when you can read and write latin, having translated most of the Aeneid.
I haven't actually read many of the other political works though, did a good many metamorphoses translations.
My real question is does this chart thing go on, what's next and do we have the infographics for them?
>>7920208
>not including Germania
>no Horace
>no Satyricon
>no Pliny the Younger
>incomplete cicero
overall not bad. I might add a few more contemporary secondary sources and get rid of the tv shows, this ain't /tv/
but it's your chart. do what you feel. 8/10
>The Humphries translation of Ovid
>Not the Oxford World Classics Melville translation
Disgust
Bump, is there a part 3 chart like
>>7920276
asked about?
>>7920438
I'll do a chart containing the rise of christianity, end of the western empire, and beginning of the eastern empire for part 3 some day, but I'm not there yet.
>>7920208
>reminding us again that most of livys books are lost
thanks m8
>>7920208
>no Catullus
>no Propertius
>no Lucretius
Plus Tibullus for the boipussi elegies
>>7920208
>>7920499
I hate to be rude but this is not a great chart. It's all over the place for the sake of hitting a few big name primary sources, while ignoring just as many others. No "intro" to Rome should spend just one primary source on a mere fragment of the monarchy/Republic (Livy 1-5 will take you from 753-390) while ignoring literally the majority of the Republic along with some of its most formative enterprises and most interesting characters. The Republic was to the people of the empire what Rome as a whole is to us now: an esteemed, bygone time whose values and culture are superior to one's contemporary society, if only in terms of virtue. Its significance cannot be understated for an understanding of all Rome. You also lose some of Rome's best characters (Scipio Africanus elder/younger, Aemilius Paullus, Hannibal) and historians, e.g. Polybius, one of the greatest and most influential historians of the ancient world, especially in the era of Roman supremacy.
You need context for the empire. Unless you read some secondary sources or really go nuts with primary sources, you can't contextualize Caesar without the turmoil of the first century bc, which in turn cannot be understood without knowledge of the fall of Carthage and the dissolution of the Achaean league, which in turn cannot be understood without knowledge of the Punic wars as a whole, the Macedonian wars, and the influence of the East (eg Antiochus), which takes you back to 264 BC at which point you may as well fill the gap between that and the end of Livy book V (390).
In short if you want to see how Rome evolved and came to dominate the ancient world and subsequently fell, you either need to lean far more heavily on secondary sources, with primary sources as fun interim projects, or you need to commit to a daunting quantity of primary source readings. Your intro has almost nothing regarding, for example, Augustus of all people--an ironically difficult topic to nail down in primary sources, largely limited to Suetonius (mentioning minimal politics), Dio (as part of a much larger work), and Plutarch (also but a small portion).
>>7920301
Do you have any idea how much content there is from Cicero? There is no "complete" Cicero outside of Loeb's TWENTY NINE VOLUME set. He is the single biggest chunk of the Loeb library by far. This is actually a useful example of a symptom of the difficulty in trying to approach Rome as one did Greece: there is just way more content. It is so much harder to learn only from primary sources. It's not just Herodotus and Thucydides and Xenophon; it's Livy, Polybius, Diodorus, Appian, Sallust, Caesar, Dionysius, Dio, Suetonius, Tacitus, Plutarch, Paterculus, Marcelinus, Herodian, Florus, and the Augustan History, not to mention extensive epistolary records found in the likes of Cicero, Pliny, and Seneca.
>>7920208
What do the colored lines mean?
>>7920782
shut the fuck up
>>7920782
I hope someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to post this, because no one else needed you to do so
>>7920499
You only included Jewish Wars for the history, right? Because he may have had Flavian patronage but he was a Jew writing in Greek.
>>7920208
>TFW you were born too late to rape the Sabine women.
>>7920782
So you're right in one sense, definitely needs like 2-3 more things about the republic/cicero, but on the whole, the chart isn't bad, the politics of rome are the core of rome, but knowing the intracacies of duoviri elections and other stuff isn't ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED to get stoicism or understand caesar's conquest.
I think OP did alright, it's not perfect, but neither were the first several greek charts. I don't think the exhaustive list you gave would all be helpful , as the greek lists (like you mentioned) don't fully encompass it either. But e/lit/ists aren't looking for COMPLETE HISTORIES OF ALL WRITTEN WORKS, they want tongue dips enough to brag about it to the cashier of whatever hipster-hole in the wall bookstore they shitpost their days away in. And these lists accomplish that I think
>>7920782
You need to read some Wittgenstein because your language and lengthy text is neither concise nor digestible. I saw all those parenthesis and spaces and I thought "tl;dr"
I ride til i die
>>7920823
>>7920842
>being this mad
>>7920908
Any decent foray into primary sources about the era of Rome's supremacy will inevitably include Greek writers. Roman hegemony did not necessitate that Greece and the post-Hellenistic Mediterranean world had nothing to say for hundreds of years.
>>7920948
Thanks for actually responding to my comment. I agree with you in spirit, in that nobody really needs to know the ins and outs of Roman law or whatever, but that's where people run into trouble with the pro-primary-source circlejerk; by definition you have no critical apparatus parsing away the useful information from the mountain of extant primary source content. Honestly not that much information is needed for historical background, like you said, but that will never be concisely provided by just a few primary sources.
That's why I suggested focusing on secondary sources with primaries as a fun aside. A recently written 250 page book about the Republic will tell you everything you "need" to know. And you're totally right that even a near-exhaustive inquiry into Roman works isn't that helpful; I've been reading almost exclusively primary source histories for nearly a year and would not recommend the process to anyone just looking for a general idea of the ancient world.
As you mentioned, it seems like people just want to say they touched base with some primary sources. I guess I just don't understand the motivations at play. It seems kind of silly to get such a scattered view of Rome, since someone reading only OP's recommendations will get BTFO by anyone who's read even a brief overview of Roman history. At that point just read a secondary text.
>>7921034
Thanks for the recommendation. I'm never too good about being concise, especially since primary ancient sources are one of the only things about which I can actually speak at length.
Can you really be finished with the Greeks, though?
>>7921096
>Not understanding Ulysses as a literally metaphorical translation of the odyssey
>>7920208
Chart needs a lot of work.
I mean come on, you have TV shit, but no fucking Lucretius?
>>7920208
YOU FINALLY CHARTED THE FUCKING ROMANS! WONDERFUL!
Now, we already have charts for Islamic literature, and Nordic literature, which basically covers the Middle Ages. All we really need now, are the Bible, and the Hellenistic Greeks, and we'll have covered everything up to the Rennaissance.
how do you say no to gibbon but then recommend an hbo series
>>7921328
>Islamic and Nordic literature covers all the middle ages
Retard
>>7921343
Would you care to add something to that list?
>>7921358
Anglo Saxon Literature
Scholastic Literature
Italian Literature
Irish Literature
Etc
>>7921363
I was using "Nordic", as a sort of cover-all term for Germanic literature in general, but fair point, my terminology was flawed.
I'm not really familiar with the Italian, and Irish literature of the era desu. I may have been an idiot to comment on it.
>>7920208
I only just realised that you fucking missed Plutarch.
>>7921366
Yeah ya silly sausage
Can't be forgetting Cailte and co
>>7921367
*Googles*
"Fenian Cycle"
*Sweats heavily*
>>7921366
>Plutarch
Plutarch is good for learning about the Greek politicians, but as for Roman emperors, I'd read the stuff on OP's chart
>>7922376
are you talking shit about Finn MacCool and the Salmon of Knowledge
>>7922294
Plutarch is based for histories on the guys leading up to the Empire. The histories of Cato and Caesar could serve as gateway lit
>>68262138
>The Early History of Rome
>Livy
This is what happens when plebs make charts and recommend reading Livy although they themselves never even read the preface of his work.
>>7922529
The fuck are you on about referencing a 1 million old post
>>7922529
I'm not defending the chart, but what's your point against Livy?
>>7922529
did you mean >>78262138?
>>7922529
Livy is easy to read and provides a good origin story
Where is Seneca, a tragedian who strongly influenced Shakespeare? Where is Plautus, a comedian who strongly influenced Moliere? Where is Satyricon, the first western novel? Where is Augustine of Hippo, who created the autobiography?
And, I'm not a historian, so I must ask - how accurate are those primary sources? I mean, I wouldn't really trust any general to accurately retell me a war he personally waged...
Unrelated a bit but is there a cheaper physical alternative to Loeb?
I actually want to read livy without paying 100 plus
Someone should definitely update this picture and add it to the wiki.
You're not finished with the Greeks until you've done plotinus.
>>7924057
Popular works like those of Livy are readily available from Penguin, Oxford, and sometimes Modern Library. Save your Loeb purchases for content that isn't published by anyone else, and be aware that a lot of non-Loeb editions, especially of larger works, will be selections rather than complete texts. Plutarch, for example, has been chopped up and rearranged in different selections under a bunch of different titles like "the makers of Rome." Reference the loeb wiki page to see what's actually extant for a given writer.
Livy, however, is readily available unabridged.
>>7924297
Said alternative because I want to read it in Latin
>>7920482
no Horace, either
>>7920303
>he doesn't read Mandelbaum
>>7924622
Oh, yeah, no. There's a publisher that offers in French what Loeb offers in English, but I think they're even more expensive.
Try to buy used. Check abebooks; sometimes they have whole sets for sale at decent prices. I got Pliny's natural history (10 loeb volumes) for $100.
>>7924622
I don't know if this is possible, but maybe you can download the books from Perseus library and print them yourself.
hi friends i fixed the image
>>7924661
>no content on the civil wars
>includes Jewish history largely ignored even by contemporary Romans
there was no need to post this once, let alone twice
>>7924699
i think you missed the joke
>>7924753
fuck
i'm retarded
>>7924661
>Resume
Start with the Greeks doesn't have alliteration. SO WHY THE FUCK WOULD THIS HAVR IT OMAC oy REIT pts put up sf OGPU DUP UORUPSTUPSTPUSTPUTSPUSTPUSFPUXPUXGHPXJXPGJXGPPUGXOUFUTSPUTSUSUFSPIDGUGXPPUFUPFSUDGUGDPUOFZGOZUOGZUGZUFZYUPFZPUFZUPZUPZUFUCKYOUPYSFUSFPYSROOYSOYSUPSTOUSTPTSUUPSUPSPUSPUSPUSFSOUPUSTOUSTYOTUSOTPSUOUSUUPTDNIGGEROAHHOAFUOSFOYSPUSOYSFPSUFPUSGUGSYPPUSFPUSGUPFPHSPUSGPSHPUSOUFSOUSOUSFUOFSOUSOUSPUFSOUSFPUFSOUSOUSOUFSPUSPUFSPUGSPUSGPUSGPUGDUPDGPUGSPUSFPUFPUSFPUSFPUDFPUFSPUFSPUFSPUSFUPSPUSUPSGPUSGPUSGPUSUP>>7924661
>Resume
Start with the Greeks doesn't have alliteration. SO WHY THE FUCK WOULD THIS HAVR IT OMAC oy REIT pts put up sf OGPU DUP UORUPSTUPSTPUSTPUTSPUSTPUSFPUXPUXGHPXJXPGJXGPPUGXOUFUTSPUTSUSUFSPIDGUGXPPUFUPFSUDGUGDPUOFZGOZUOGZUGZUFZYUPFZPUFZUPZUPZUFUCKYOUPYSFUSFPYSROOYSOYSUPSTOUSTPTSUUPSUPSPUSPUSPUSFSOUPUSTOUSTYOTUSOTPSUOUSUUPTDNIGGEROAHHOAFUOSFOYSPUSOYSFPSUFPUSGUGSYPPUSFPUSGUPFPHSPUSGPSHPUSOUFSOUSOUSFUOFSOUSOUSPUFSOUSFPUFSOUSOUSOUFSPUSPUFSPUGSPUSGPUSGPUGDUPDGPUGSPUSFPUFPUSFPUSFPUDFPUFSPUFSPUFSPUSFU>>7924661
>Resume
Start with the Greeks doesn't have alliteration. SO WHY THE FUCK WOULD THIS HAVR IT OMAC oy REIT pts put up sf OGPU DUP UORUPSTUPSTPUSTPUTSPUSTPUSFPUXPUXGHPXJXPGJXGPPUGXOUFUTSPUTSUSUFSPIDGUGXPPUFUPFSUDGUGDPUOFZGOZUOGZUGZUFZYUPFZPUFZUPZUPZUFUCKYOUPYSFUSFPYSROOYSOYSUPSTOUSTPTSUUPSUPSPUSPUSPUSFSOUPUSTOUSTYOTUSOTPSUOUSUUPTDNIGGEROAHHOAFUOSFOYSPUSOYSFPSUFPUSGUGSYPPUSFPUSGUPFPHSPUSGPSHPUSOUFSOUSOUSFUOFSOUSOUSPUFSOUSFPUFSOUSOUSOUFSPUSPUFSPUGSPUSGPUSGPUGDUPDGPUGSPUSFPU>>7924661
>Resume
Start with the Greeks doesn't have alliteration. SO WHY THE FUCK WOULD THIS HAVR IT OMAC oy REIT pts put up sf OGPU DUP UORUPSTUPSTPUSTPUTSPUSTPUSFPUXPUXGHPXJXPGJXGPPUGXOUFUTSPUTSUSUFSPIDGUGXPPUFUPFSUDGUGDPUOFZGOZUOGZUGZUFZYUPFZPUFZUPZUPZUFUCKYOUPYSFUSFPYSROOYSOYSUPSTOUSTPTSUUPSUPSPUSPUSPUSFSOUPUSTOUSTYOTUSOTPSUOUSUUPTDNIGGEROAHHOAFUOSFOYSPUSOYSFPSUFPUSGUGSYPPUSFPUSGUPFPHSPUSGPSHPUS
>>7924768
mind your manners man
