Really pretentious to admit this, but does anyone else from a lower class uneducated background find that reading lit has alienated you from your family?
i bet you've read a book about people less interesting than your own family
Of course, go talk to people from lower class black families who have/had serious aspirations in school.
>>7878160
/thread
>>7878160
The idiosyncratic nature of the world often goes unnoticed - that's why it exists in literature.
>>7878160
Maybe, but who reads literature for interesting plots? And their way of saying what happened to them is not interesting at all.
The feeling of being smart or well-read or just curious enough to realise the limitations of your own station in life is tricky, because on the one hand it can motivate you to get the fuck out of there and essentially do whatever you want with your life (since the main problem of middle and low class people is lack of knowledge of their real opportunities, not lack of will, really), but on the other hand it can hobble you by making you think you're hot shit because you're the "smart guy" in your working class family.
I think it definitely does alienate you, but honestly, no more than being genuinely well-read or curious would alienate you from a rich family.Frankly after a few years of talking to "upper class educated background" people you'd cut off a thumb just to talk to a day labourer again, trust me.
>>7878158
meanwhile kids from well-to-do families struggle with their self-perceived lack of authenticity and feeling that they haven't earned anything themselves
1st world is such a shitty place to live in
>>7878179
I was typing an answer but this really nailed it.
No not at all.
I'm lower class UK, my dad is a Head Chef with no qualifications, and my Mum works in management for Social Services.
I'm just as part of the family as I would be if I wasn't a reader, except my parents are more proud of me for having more "intellectual" hobbies (I still do regular things like meet friends and lift weights tho).
Maybe you're just an autist OP, unless you're parents are jealous in a weird way.
>>7878166
This. I've sometimes wondered what it must be like for highly intelligent blacks.
>>7878158
Reading philosophy extensively is alienating to an extent, but it's not really like the scenario you're describing.
In the face of philosophy everyone is pretty "uneducated". But more importantly, philosophy by nature makes you challenge yourself as an individual. You come into contact with men who appear as intellectual giants, completely overwhelming any other male figures in your life. It puts you on the path of a loner and apprentice, like the commonly told tale of a boy leaving his loving but simple parents and home in order to be taken under the wing of some sage or master out in the mountains or into the wilderness of some kind.
In the end though, unless you fucked it all up along the way, you'll come back just as loving to them, as a new man. So the alienation is only temporary.
>>7878191
>1st world is such a shitty place to live in
>>7878204
>Maybe you're just an autist OP
I think this is it. When I've seen this in others, it's because they start to behave as though liking to read certain books made them better/different to those around them. If reading books makes you unable to relate to the working people around you, especially in your own family, I'd say it's time to cultivate a few other interests and put some effort into relating to others.
It's likely more about the personality of the individual than the fact that they've gotten themselves sum book-learnin. Autists gotta aut.
>>7878191
>1st world
spook
>>7878158
It does. My parents are functionally illiterate and I grew up in poverty. My dad's never held a job more than a month or two, and even then he was only a janitor. My mom has been in fast food or body shop work, but very rarely worked much. My grandpa was a lumberjack.
I was the first person to go to university, one of the few who even graduated high school. I had to navigate every bit of paperwork, application, researching where I wanted to go on my own. Not to mention the money, which I got a lot of for being poor.
When my parents come over, I get asked "what they got left to teach" me. They seem to think I'm not as smart as I once was, because I'm still in school (graduate school). Whenever my mom sees my shelves, she makes excuses about not reading and gets uncomfortably defensive.
But they were still great enough parents to make me love learning from a young age, and they still like to do what they can. I always get books from them for Christmas (from a list I made), even though Barnes and Noble has to "special order" them when they go up there. They've went with me to conferences when it's in cities they want to visit, even though last time my mom had a meltdown thinking the Turkish literature speaker on my panel was actually undercover ISIS and going to kidnap me.
It's hard to talk with them, but it always has been. I'm not into drugs, I'm not into sports, I don't watch TV. Those are pretty much the things my family spends their life on. Especially the first one. It's not really been books so much as academia generally that does it, imo. I can't talk about my day-to-day life, because it's so far removed from what they did.
>tfw my dad has become likely the most boring person i know
>essentially lives a robotic life nowadays, seemingly just going through the motions until he's dead
>9-5 job every day of the week which he hates but puts up with
>been in the exact same routine for at least 5 years
>i remember hearing stories from dad or his mates about the stuff and adventures they used to do back in the day
>his life story in itself is pretty wild
>you'd never guess it now
>it's horribly depressing to see
>>7878505
As a kid, I always noticed the sadness in the fathers of my friends. I've been thinking a lot about this lately. It contrasted with the mirth and joy of the mothers. I think it's because they learned their role was to be automaton. A producer, and nothing else.
>>7878505
>busting my hump every day at a job i hate
>just trying to provide for my family
>life is not what it used to be
>i used to have such fun
>the only thing that keeps me going is the love i have for my family
>but lately that son of mine has changed
>used to be so proud
>thought he'd take after me
>i introduced him to literature and thinking
>used to spend hours talking together, challenging each other
>then five years ago he stopped reading
>starting mumbling about 4chan
>now no longer reads, just shitposts
>he doesn't relate to any of us anymore
>i'm so crushed i start to lose pleasure in my work
>now i'm just puttin in the hours while i worry about my son
>it's horribly depressing to see him
>>7878169
Trueit made me cringe though
>>7878497
>I'm not into drugs, I'm not into sports, I don't watch TV. Those are pretty much the things my family spends their life on. Especially the first one.
Scary.
>>7878530
>implying my dad reads...
stop making me feel even more
>>7878530
>>thought he'd take after me
Yeah, he should become a soulles robot for his children so his children can become robots too and so on, what a great future.
>>7878497
Good post, thanks for sharing.
>>7878505
>tfw you live boring robotic life AND you did nothing interesting in the past
>>7878497
>last time my mom had a meltdown thinking the Turkish literature speaker on my panel was actually undercover ISIS and going to kidnap me.
That's hilarious, but your story otherwise seems sad because of the alienation from the rest of your family. It was probably not too easy growing up like what you've described and finding motivation to keep it up for going to University.
>>7878533
It actually is. I guess my parents are okay because they seem to stick to weed and alcohol, but my siblings are not well. One is in prison on her third drug charge, one lives in Section 8 selling herself, the other has already been institutionalized after coming off of several things at once and having a psychotic break. Now she's just generally nuts.
>>7878497
They sound like good, loving parents despite their lack of education. That ISIS bit was endearing.
>>7878497
>gets uncomfortably defensive
>I can't talk about my day-to-day life, because it's so far removed from what they did.
DELET THIS2 real. Good luck
I feel like the only influence my family has had on me is providing a model for what I don't want to be.
>>7878158
>alienated you from your family?
only from my family? i feel like literally nobody in this world cares about deep stuff apart from me (and i got to university)
>>7878578
>>7878569
>>7878545
>>7878537
>>7878528
>>7878522
>>7878505
>>7878497
I'm not denying there is real feeling in some of these posts, but fuck me did this turn into an angsty fucking mess. In this terrible world we're having a good moan on a chinese cartoon board about our boring fathers?
>>7878490
This.
And this: https://youtu.be/Ex9cAbzGiN0
>>7878594
fagoeto
>>7878594
go to*
>>7878578
Me too. Even subconsciously I've developed numerous traits which are the opposite of my parents behaviors. At the same time I've followed the career path of my mother, and I apparently look exactly like my father. You simply can't escape your family - a friend of mine inherited her mother's relationship problems. They both have had more partners than a normal person, and often pick bad partners.
My dad is most nervous person i ever know. Never beat us or something like that, but often screams at my mother for a stupid reason and i must to evacuate myself. I dont like to spend lot of time close to him cause i could never be sure what will goes to his mind. I am pretty nervous myself tho, but trying not scream very, but i am still unconfortable in public and need to stand and walk few steps forth and back without reason
>tfw can only talk to my dad about sports
>i don't even like sports that much anymore
>>7878597
I'm the last, and I don't think my family is boring at all.
My childhood actually reminded me a lot of Little, Big. Everything from the tarot readings, crazies and infidelity to almost all of my family living together on ~100 wooded acres my patriarch grandpa owned.
You guys should reconsider using the autistic virgin book club as a surrogate therapist
>>7878505
>i remember hearing stories from dad or his mates about the stuff and adventures they used to do back in the day
there's another way of looking at this. you see, there are two kinds of experiences, ones that genuinely make you grow as a person, and experiences that are had just for the sake of having experiences. on the road touches on this, but not in the way kerouac intended. the purpose of these experiences is not to experience, the purpose is to not stop, because when you stop, you must confront the reality, which is that you feel empty inside, a nonentity, with very little to call your own. to avoid this, one runs on to "adventures" and "experiences".
but pretty quickly the reality begins to loom: you're too self-conscious for genuine experience, instead you're like an actor playing a role, trying to think how you should behave and react, what kind of experiences this nebulous "you" should have next, you dimly realize this and it makes you unhappy inside.
what started as a chase for something(experience) ends up becoming running away from something(the nothingness that is you) and at the end of the day, you realize there was never a you, only this creature, a mannequin, that you stuck experiences on
at some point you realize the futility of the pseudo-chase and you turn inward, trying to figure it all out, and at some point, you may, if you are exceedingly lucky, catch a glimpse of the zen-idea that in every moment you can experience a tiny piece of the eternal truth that is, simply by being.
>>7878160
I bet you idealize uneducated people because you've read great stories about them written by other educated people.
My father is fucking awesome and he and I even like different things.
Most of what I have to say has already been said but I do notice it at work. I was reading The Myth of Sisyphus next to a colleague reading the Daily Star (about the lowest level of tabloid Britain can shit out) and I always get referred to as "the smartest guy working there" or "the only intellectual person here" and I hate it. It imposes a ridiculous level of expectation. I'm not smart, just curious. I don't think I'm particularly intelligent, I'm just like new ideas.
And yet I've been promoted twice with ease simply on the back of my reputation. Not even exaggerating. My boss actually said "You're the only person that seems to enjoy reading and having an open mind is the key to being a good manager".
I keep trying to get people I work with to read more, to no avail. One of my colleagues said a bookmi was reading sounded interesting but when somebody else walked in he poked fun at it as though he had a " dumb" image to maintain to fit in.
![97e70b_5514533[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/qBiDYf2.jpg "97e70b_5514533[1].jpg")
>>7878158
A lower class background isn't bad. What's worse is a lower middle class background, a.k.a. the gold standard of mediocrity. You're not poor enough to have a solid sense of community or culture or personal experience or work ethic, and you're also not rich enough to experience the most elite social signifiers like exclusive universities and distinguished social circles.
You are middlebrow. You imitate a watered down version of what you think upper classes consider proper. You take every opportunity to convince your fellow middlebrows that you aren't poor, unlike upper classes who simply demonstrate their wealth without a conscious effort. Independent thought doesn't exist much at this level; you appreciate what you're told to appreciate and consume what is suggested you consume. The lower classes don't harbor delusions of social significance, but the lower middle class certainly does.
Unlike the upper middle class which attains hyper-specialized and often interesting skills, the lower middle class is unexceptional. You act as a middle manager between the professional highly educated workforce and the working class. Your existence is basically a self-conscious effort at demonstrating that you aren't lower class, when in fact from a cultural standpoint you are totally beneath them.
>>7878191
t. mira gonzalez
Alienating in some superficial ways, sure.
But if you can read all this amazing stuff and somehow walk away feeling LESS empathetic than when you started.... You were probably feeling alienated before you lit up.
>>7878497
Fuckin heartwarming
>>7878158
>that feel
>>7878637
Just coast by on that assumed intelligence, bro.
The worst thing about being working class is the fact that we won't discuss anything. Anything intellectual is deemed to be 'pretentious', anything emotional is for 'drama queens', anything other than tabloid politics is 'student shite'. Its a genuine problem in that the entire working class straight up refuses to acknowledge that mental health issues are a genuine problem.
>>7878179
how can being well read motivate me to do anything? it's the contrary for me
>>7878643
>You're not poor enough to have a solid sense of community or culture or personal experience or work ethic,
You've never actually interacted with working people, have you? Where does this romantic and reductive idea come from?
>>7878448
>highly intelligent blacks
Oh Anon you card
Realistically speaking I guess they get on the scholarship train or crash or get caught up in something and end up in jail.
>>7878160
What is it with the Marxist autists on /lit/ ideolising the working class? You know what the working class does all day? Drink fucking beer and watch Britain's got talent. Boring shit man.
>>7878637
I think if you do try to discover new things and like it you are "smart"
at least you don't do like everyone else and correspond to the idea of the normal working guy who don't read
>>7878709
>don't do like everyone else
And here's a symptom of what OP started this lamentable thread with.
>>7878673
maybe b/c they realize participating at the level of ideal is meaningless b/c they are completely at the level of material or object, so of course they interpret that way too b/c of course they themselves were born and then became objects due ultimately to the process of an autonomous referent of money, which is the subject to their object, and has all the personality and individuality they give it.
They're only doing what they can. like jesus did.
>>7878709
>at least you don't do like everyone else and correspond to the idea of the normal working guy who don't read
what a fucking gem of a sentence.
>>7878681
I work as a truck driver in Tennessee. I interact with working class people every single during which I meet people who have cultural identities that become diluted in the human supermarket that is the entry-level middle class. In the working class there are distinct regional, ethnic, and cultural differences which its members are proud of, an appreciation for manual labor and hard work, and often genuine and interesting personal narratives which struggling in an unpleasant situation creates. The working class doesn't consume culture because they care about how it makes them look, they consume culture because of how it makes them feel.
It's not a romantic idea, that's a lazy and cliched criticism of my analysis. Being poor isn't fun or pleasant, it's simply culturally superior to being lower middle class.
>>7878723
that reads like a direct translation of some southern european language.
>>7878721
Finally some sense.
>>7878720
i mean that he does what he enjoys and not what society wants him to think and do
It's sad if you have a problem with that tbqh
>>7878653
I can't argue with doubling my wages in two years of employment, but most days I feel like a fraud. Upper management seem happy though. It's turning me in to a bit of a bastard but I can live with that.
>>7878709
Perhaps in some senses, but I have a surprising lack of social awareness. What I lack in social awareness I have in cultural awareness. It works in my job when I go on business trips because I can relate to the people I speak to and my inquisitive nature seems to make people like me. If you've seen Michael Palin's travel shows I try to be more like him. Friendly, open minded and always trying to be nice to people.
I suppose intelligence is a difficult thing to define though.
>>7878724
and how do the ratings show up different whether the consumer consumes because of how it feels and how it makes them look? yes, exactly the same.
I do think they cannot afford the cheap and illusory cultural identities the entry level middleclass buys, so they have to revert to identities of self that don't cost anything. But, are those 'free' identities more authentic? Probably in some ways they are.
>>7878735
Nothing major. At the end it should be "doesn't read".
Perhaps "don't do like everyone else" could be worded as "don't act like everyone else" or "don't do what everyone else does". Correspond should probably also be " conform".
I hope that helps.
>>7878746
Meant to say "that doesn't read".
>>7878746
ok i see it now thanks
>>7878750
wait is it:
who or that doesn't read?
I always get this wrong.
>>7878643
This fucking picture makes my blood boil
>>7878738
do people ask you questions you can't answer? it happens to me sometimes and i always feel like i let them down or as if they're going to change their view on me and see me as a fraud
>>7878753
Do you expect everyone to be an intellectual?i find the picture sad too
>>7878751
In this instance it's "who" because it refers specifically to a "guy". If it said "normal working guys" it would be "who don't read". That's because "does not" refers to one person or singular entity. Don't (do not) refers to a group of separate individuals.
This is getting more complicated the more I think about it. How do people ever learn this langauge?
>>7878754
I'm quite up front about not knowing because I don't want to waste people's time. Similarly I don't hesitate to ask if I need to know something.
I do feel bad if somebody has a problem and I can't help because it is my responsibility, but I'm only one man so I don't let it get to me.
>>7878766
That's far from the worst structures, English is a fucking mess.
>>7878643
this is wrong for two reason. the first and more obvious one is that in contemporary society the social class is determined by educational level, not economical status. the second reason is that you are generalizing, do you really think you can come to /lit/ and tell "lower-middle class" intellectuals that they "imitate a watered down version of what you think upper classes consider proper"? i dont give a fuck about what upper classes consider proper
>>7878784
i'm middle class, my two parents went to universities, what do you need to be upperif not money?
>>7878784
nice digits, but
not giving a fuck about what upper classes consider proper is a watered down version of upper classes saying they don't give a fuck about what upper classes consider proper
>>7878790
Money and Power. Coincidentally those two usually come as a package.
>>7878464
This
>>7878790
In the old world, a title indicates being upper class. In the new world its probably having your own golf course or a mansion made of bricks rather than plastic.
>>7878790
sup
A thread this long about autism an class anxieties and talking about the appearance of being well-read.
No books mentioned, no lit quoted.
>/lit/ in 2016
>>7878829
Depends who you ask. Level of education is definitely important, but where you attained your education is also.
In a capitalist society, I think most people would say class is determined by your wealth and occupation
>>7878793
i disagree. maybe i'm imitating someone saying that, but it's not the "upper class" rich politicians or actors
>>7878835
>one thread
>in 150 threads
>>7878705
1. idealizing the working class isn't peculiar to marxists, though it is a common fault amongst them.
2. that post doesn't necessarily allude to them
>>7878158
Just because you've read some books doesn't make you a upper class educated social elite; you're just as pleb as them.
They probably aren't a family worth having, in any case.
>tfw third gen ivy league student
this thread is a HOT mess
>>7878835
I mentioned Little, Big.
>>7878877
and yet u join us plebs on 4chan
>>7878884
and?
>>7878894
thus you don't reaaally think this thread is a hot mess
I kind of agree with the premise of this thread, based on my own experiences. It's not that much about class though, it's about curiosity. If you've got it, but nobody around you does, it can be extremely frustrating, because you will not have anybody to share your insights with and develop them.
It's about an attitude to the world, the desire to discover new, finding ways to see things differently and uncovering avenues of thought. If you've got that but no one around you does, everybody else will start to feel stagnant, predictable. You're probably not helping because you lack the capacity to express your discoveries in a meaningful way, so you withdraw.
And the above doesn't seem to be really about social class, though the curious ones tend to end up middle class-upper middle class, as their curiosity will give them tools to do reasonably well for themselves, but make them too much an outsider to ever break into the upper levels of the pyramids, where one needs social acumen, extroversion and leadership.
The issue for the curious with the non-curious world is that after seeing the other side, the non-curious way of seeing things is like being stuck observing the world only through a small window. It is untolerable but also uncommunicable, and that is why "reading"(as an abstract concept of curious learning) can alienate you from family and peers.
>>7878620
Intriguing.
(I'd like to see more thoughts along this line, but I can't categorize it. Sounds like nihilism, but it's more about self-reflection that senselessness of the experience)
>>7878643
Thinking about class is always so depressing - each way out seems to require a lifetime of work, and I feel like life ends past 40.
(I'm 29)
>>7878938
I think this post sums it up, but I would like to add my own bit. I feel the most infuriating thing is identity of anti-intellectualism, there is habit, upbringing, and experience but I think it partially boils down to how one identifies themselves and with what material or intellectual culture. It is its own pretension, not that it is better or worst than someone identifying with being intellectual and not actually reading or critically analyzing their own existence.
Oh well, I am mostly generalizing, most people are not that bad, really.
>>7878522
Such is life in a modern capitalist society. A lot of things in this thread are the direct consequence of neoliberal capitalism, but I find the lack of awareness of this fact a bit sad. Especially on /lit/.
>>7878999
Can you explain a bit more?
>>7878676
Why?
How is it instantiating prohibiting thoughts in you?
>>7878179
Talking to the laborers to gain what? I also don't see how it can be difficult to get to them - the upper classes are the ones where the access is hard, no?
>>7878784
A PhD in stem certainly doesn't help me escaping my class - in a way it limits you, in your job opportunities, to idealistic (scientific) or second rate managing positions.
>>7878963
I'm 22 and i kind of feel like life ends past 25 in a conventional life, how is it going for you?
How do you guys manage to find these "working class" societies
I work in a grocery store and most of my colleagues are students. I discussed the Monty Hall problem with a colleague just yesterday, and I wasn't even the one to bring it up
>>7878448
They get called white all the time.
>>7879061
actually I don't think it's reading that has prohibited my motivation but something else like my childhood, life, dunno but i think the opposite isn't true either, reading doesn't motivate you to do extra things imo
In the post you're responding I was thinking that, generally, good books spread the idea that life is meaningless, anything you do is useless,...
>>7878464
No, I came back as the Ubermensch and had to stop contact with them in case they held me back.
>>7878464
that's a good image but it's not reality
>>7879133
I moved to Germany (from Austria) at 25, living alone the first time and then at 27 got a superduper hot gf. I'm a pretty different person how than 4 years ago.
Now I'm done with both and having (since 1 to 2 years) a phase of existential confusion ... seems like the only thing I can do is enjoy a slow upwards spiral but eventually it will probably not lead to much and then I'm old and spend too much time at doctors waiting rooms. I'm positively surprised and at the same time disgusted that today I can go on tinder and fuck 18's with 29's, and/but I don't get nervous from girls anymore, I don't seem to be able to develop strong feelings for any of the girls, I'm exhausted by plebs and merely stressed by work.
I think you're young as long as your hairline looks good. Could end with 22, 25, 29 or 40.
Anyway, I'm strongly considering just taking a part time job now and living the /lit/ and /fit/ life. I can't imagine the revolutionary act that changes my life drastically enough to move from one class to another.
So basically, read and learn enough to be smart but not enough to be pretentious.
>>7878497
Thanks for posting this, senpai. We're both in the same boat, some minor details aside. What are you going to grad school for?
>>7879141
By growing up poor in a rural area. Going to college wasn't even a remote thought to most of the people I went to school with. Very few graduated before they were pregnant or incarcerated, or just stopped coming otherwise. Pretty much everyone is on drugs.
>>7879188
Literature, my area is Japanese lit. How about you? What do your parents think of grad school/your coursework if you tell them about it?
>>7879209
I'm still an undergrad, but I'll be moving into grad work before I know it (also literature). My mother is very supportive even though she doesn't entirely understand it.
>>7879196
Are these real people?
>>7878798
This is not a coincidence at all. Power comes with money because you can literally buy peoples loyalty, and the more people you have on your side, the more influence you have in society
>>7878158
No, my dad is a lawyer who also has a degree in theology, my mom is a primary school literature teacher, one of my brothers also reads, although not as much as I and my aunt and uncle are college stem professors.
The only thing bugging me is being a useless piece of shit who failed one year in college and still doesn't study enough and would die if I weren't payed for by my father's hard work. I'll probably be in college for 4-5 more years, be 25-6 by the time I get a job and earn a penny.
>>7879215
That's good she's supportive, since it's such a long haul. You want to have someone there to tell you it's worth it, especially if your advisor isn't the best. My parents are both confused as to how I'm approaching 30 and still in school (but not a doctor). Do your parents like reading, or were they also functionally illiterate?
>>7879228
Yeah, Rayvin is my cousin and Chelsee's my sister.
>>7879196
This could be a conversation between Orks in WH40k, easily. Someone change the profile pictures and names to what orks would have.
>>7879253
I'm pretty sure my mom can read but just chooses not to and I don't know about my dad.
How many years have you been in school, and do you plan on being in academia? Are you working a job on the side? I'm still worried about grad school, but I feel like it's a necessary evil if you want to get anywhere in life.
>>7879286
Eight years so far, probably a lot more to go because I work full-time (not as a professor/TA) and now only school part-time. And am about to start with kids.
I want to be in academia and always have, but I don't know that I'll end up anywhere better than teaching at a community college. If nothing else I'll be content with translation work and being an independent scholar otherwise, while keeping my current job.
Where are you trying to get in life? Academia too?
>>7879329
>Where are you trying to get in life? Academia too?
Yessir. Anyway, keep it up. You've been through a lot and it hasn't stopped you yet. I'm sure you'll make a good father.
>>7878607
See a psychiatrist. Sounds like an anxiety disorder.
>>7878158
Why is that pretentious? That's just how it works. It would be pretentious if you said that your family was a bunch of worthless shitkickers and had nothing to teach you.
