can someone explain postmodernism to me?
>>7821950
yes
>>7821954
who?
so what if like there was no truth dude? no objective value?? so this shit i just did (check out the bowl) is as good as the mona lisa?
hahahah bro, what if i converted that shit i just did into a BOOK, and sold COPIES of it. it kind of looks like a rocket so ill make that a central theme.
>>7821950
Scientific enlightenment was supposed to lead humanity to truth and the betterment of mankind. Then 2 world wars happened. People became skeptical of science. They sought to disrupt this idea of progress, which was turning their world into a living hell. Since science focuses on concise statements, postmodernism focused on obscurantism. Science focused on order while PM focused on chaos. Science focused on short statements, explaining a lot. PM wrote long treatises dealing with little.
Postmodernism also deals with the death of ideology, showing that ideology is nothing more than a false-consciousness that permeates men's subconscious through the symbolic association of signs. Postmodernism analyzes how ideologies function in societies, creating identities through difference, power systems of Order and oppression, and series of desires which keep consumer capitalistic societies intact.
While we are no longer living in a postmodern society (but, rather, a post-postmodern, or perhaps even metamodern one), it's influence is still heavily felt.
>>7821987
it also ruined our chances of expanding beyond Earth.
>>7821978
So postmodernism is being meta?
>>7821978
So basically...
Classical: Superman
Modern: Batman
Postmodern: Deadpool
>>7821987
I think we should stop being so tentative of calling the human condition today "metamodern". The internet is a historical event as significant as it gets and we don't need any other marker. Postmodernity is largely due to television anyway, and we're all aware that the internet surpasses television in terms of impact. Now, what we should really be doing is trying to define, understand and intuit what the terms "medamodern" and "metamodernist" stand and will stand for.
>>7821999
There are differences between what is referred to as "postmodern" and "postmodernist". All three of those are "postmodern" phenomena. On the other hand, Deadpool is a relatively postmodernist character, Batman less and classical Superman not even close.
>>7821987
we are still in post structuralism and post-positivism, at least in the universities.
the pleb still lives in positivism, half the pleb in structuralism and the other half in post structuralism.
>>7821995
In a lot of senses, yes. This is why, strangely enough, some people consider Don Quixote to be a precursor to the postmodern novel, despite the traditional novel not existing when it was written. However, postmodernism also deconstructs traditional literary devices. Here's a quote from Hawkes, whose The Cannibal is considered by many to be the first postmodern novel:
>I began to write fiction on the assumption that the true enemies of the novel were plot, character, setting and theme, and having once abandoned these familiar ways of thinking about fiction, totality of vision or structure was really all that remained.
does nobody on /lit/ read anymore?
>>7821957
he just did
>>7822056
That book won't be enough to fully comprehend what's today understood as postmodernism (especially when you take into account that we're living in a metamodern soicety, falsely believed to be still postmodern). "The Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism" is only one approach to it. One needs to read a lot more than that if he's really dedicated about knowing what people talk about when they say "postmodern" in any context -- artistic, literary, economic, sociological, whatnot. Or, of course, he could pose a question on an East Timorese time-cubism village institute, and get half-satisfactory responses trying to summarize a few various key points.
>>7822056
That book is VERY difficult to read. It isn't a fun pamphlet pamphlet giving the bullet points of postmodernism. Without proper knowledge of Hegel, Deleuze, Derrida, or various others, reading this will be more a lengthy, infuriating research assignment.
>>7822075
I agree. One must diversify their field of study since postmodernism encompasses a lot of areas.
>>7822090
I never said it would be easy. Jameson is quite difficult and dense. Oddly enough, I find him enjoyable. He has a wonderful knowledge of art, architecture, philosophy, etc. And he isn't afraid to name-drop.
>>7821950
y'know, weird for the sake of weird.
>>7822104
Curious, have you read this? I've been making my way through it periodically and, if you enjoyed Jameson, you'll probably enjoy this as well
>>7822123
>enjoy
never read it. i'll look into it, though. thanks.
modernism: final fantasy
postmodernism: earthbound
What do you guys think about this article? My high school English teacher had us read part of it last year.
http://www.pulib.sk/elpub2/FF/Kusnir1/
>>7821950
Actually the word means several slightly different things, depending on what field you're talking about.
As an overall chronological time period, it corresponds roughly to some interval of time from the '60s up throug the '90s.
In art (as you've clearly understood by your meta-as-fuck pic related), it tends to suggest non-traditional art presentations that were being experimented with during the above period. Installations, video art, conceptual art, etc.
In philosophy, Jean-Francois Lyotard defined postmodernism as a skepticism toward metanarratives. A metanarrative (he could just as easily have said 'narrative') is a story that explains history, the two big examples at that time being world religions, and Marxism.
In architecture, post-modernism is a school that got away from the glass-steel skyscrapers of high modernism/the international style, in favor of pasting together eclectic meme-forms. This aesthetic may be partly to blame for mcmansions, and indeed how newly re-modeled McDonald's themselves are trying their damndest to look like a cool/hip Starbucks or similar. Of course, they're not fooling anybody. Basically, post-modern architecture was trying to be more "fun" than modernism was, but it just led to the retail forms that we know today, and we value them as little today as the skyscrapers were valued by people who resented modernism in the 30s-60s.
>>7822199
Does anyone care about architecture really? I mean, it gets brought up a lot in discussions like this, but other than the examples of Las Vegas and Disney Land I don't think architecture should be considered as a fundamental subject. But again, probably because it's easy to observe since we witness it daily, it's mentioned frequently.
>>7822215
Eh, we're not talking about the fundamental subjects like the quadrivium here. Rather, it just seems that a bunch of people glommed onto the same word. This is just what the booky-wooks have told me.
And there is an architectural break between the two periods, once you know to look for it. So IMO it's useful as a category (in architecture).
>>7822239
I know there's a break but is it really something we want to focus on? Abrupt breaks? Well, tell you what, a few days ago a few people were alive and now they're dead. Anyway, this was a rather silly deviation, but agaig, I don't think the evident change shouldn't make architecture more special than it is. But I agree with you on that it is "useful".
From the perspective of art, modernism can be thought of as a turn towards reflexivity and self-investigion with regards to artistic mediums, with the goal of a self-understanding that will remove some kind of inhibitor to progress. What is painting and sculpture? Can they be made to represent meaning in a manner otherwise than previously thought? Okay, looks like they can - what are the implications of this? You have moves towards minimalism in the pursuit of a kind of "pure" expression of a medium as in Mondrian, playing with space as in Cubism... eventually leading up to paintings which are really not representations of anything at all, except for themselves as paintings. The reification of the signified in the signifier; have we succeeded in pinning down meaning and the medium by making a sign that represents itself? These concerns mirror structuralist semiotics (thought of in terms of Saussure) that, through synchronic analysis, seeks to identify underlying mechanisms that produce meaning in a system of language with the assumption that such a project is possible.
Postmodernism, then, is the recognition that modernism's pursuit of control over meaning and the medium is essentially a fantasy. Reification is a myth, systems of language are extended in time and the production of meaning cannot be understood by Saussure's method. Many will come to the conclusion that the project of control over meaning finds its motivation in the capitalist mode of production. The structures underlying the production of meaning cannot be described by a general theory, as they are perpetually in flux. How to approach meaning and art, then? One approach is to examine the conditions that make the material instantiations of art and language possible. A painting that is simply a painting and nothing else hangs on the wall of a museum because the art institution has already decided what painting is. The cultural construction and assignation of identities (art, race, gender) is governed by the powerful in a capitalist market founded on colonialism and hegemony, and so on.
The accusations of obscurantism that poststructuralism/postmodernism receive never made much sense to me. The whole point is that immediate, given access to meaning is an unachievable fantasy of control and that those still pursuing it are living in fairyland - and also that the oppositional structures on which the production of meaning is contingent cannot be shed. The project is to identify the conditions of these things, expose their internal hegemonies, and to try to create a language and a mindset that will allow these operations to unfold without the employment of an "analysis" which will only deal with them on their own terms and therefore cannot escape their problems. This is why Derrida, for example, writes the way he does...
>>7822277
>The accusations of obscurantism that poststructuralism/postmodernism receive never made much sense to me.
This. Great post by the way, should be stickied.
i think if postmodernism was about discarding meaning metamodernism is about creation of our own meanings.
>>7821979
Interesting, but as I always protest, I see nothing insincere about Thomas Pynchon
Where are you guys reading these epic tomes of irony?
>>7821999
Waste of trips
>>7822713
I don't think it's fair to characterize postmodernism as being "about discarding meaning" - in philosophy/semiotics (I associate pomo with poststructuralism very closely), it's basically a rethinking of how "opposition" works in the "binary opposition" that structuralists after Saussure are working with. Derrida points out that the difference between terms that constitutes their position and meaning in a system can never be thought of purely within an ahistorical, given “moment." He gives many reasons, including the notion that a reader's mental state will differ in each act of reading and the conceiving of difference/interplay as a generative movement instead of static opposition. The idea is there, yes, that meaning is non-essential and constructed, but that isn't to say it doesn't exist. We just need to recognize the mechanisms that construct it - language that articulates these mechanisms can mean things.
Recognizing these mechanisms is important not only on the level of the ability to construct meaning, but also on the level of the political: "in a classical philosophical opposition we are not dealing with the peaceful coexistence of a vis-a-vis, but rather with a violent hierarchy. One of the two terms governs the other (axiologically, logically, etc.), or has the upper hand." When structuralism fails to complicate the oppositional relationships between terms in the system of language, it covers up these violent hierarchies and allows them to freely play out their political effects.
I don't really understand what metamodernism, but "creation of our own meanings" doesn't address a thing in the dialogue between modernism and postmodernism. It just covers up the question, which I would hope after Heidegger we would feel wary of.
>>7821954
kek
>>7822754
>difference/interplay
Did you mean différance?
Also, I'll try to make a point against all you've said: I don't think literary, aesthetical or artistic postmodernism closely relates to these explanations, simply because, I don't think any successful artist can be as analytically savant and smart as to be able to formulate and comprehend these truly. Consider how Magritte talks about his works. Think about Vonnegut, Dick, Pynchon, Rushdie, DeLlillo, Pamuk, Borges, and even Eco, if I may be so bold. Do you think they'd be able to say likes of these (without resorting to restatement and reproduction)?
is reactionary ideology inherently post-modern?
are /pol/ post-modernists, not just in context, but in belief?
>>7823975
I think, no and no. But you'd better let an expert take care of the explanation.
>>7823947
I was referring to differance, yeah. But I thought I'd avoid the can of worms that comes with the technical term, for now. And while I think many of the big names were not thinking so critically at the time, artists tend to be more well-read than you think. In my program, I take a lot of classes with MFAs who have a better grasp on all of this than I do. But, it may be too late for the postmodern moment. Who knows. Art is bound up in the neoliberal market to the point that awareness of these conditions just ends up amounting to irony, most of the time. It's something I grapple with all the time.
>>7824175
Also, for the record... I'm not very well-read in literature, although I've read most of Pynchon's books. I'm more of an art and philosophy guy, I came around here mostly when we had a lot of good philosophy threads.
That is the question that I have, too.
Everyone talks about post modernism or post feminism or so..
What do they mean by post?
>>7821950
Postmodernism is people just giving up. It requires a minimum of talent, imagination, and effort; yet it can be sold for vast sums of money. It's like the trendy hipster glasses of art: short on substance, short on form, but extremely chic and 'cool' due to a purposeful anti-establishment stance that has, in fact, become the establishment.
>>7824245
That's one form of pomo, just the giving up on modernist aspirations taking the form of its banalization. It's what Jeff Koons does. There's plenty of good postmodern art, though, like Cindy Sherman.
>>7821950
Modernism is a broad art movement and post-modernism is a proposed broad art-movement that is either a later form of the previous or its own thing.
>>7822016
this is the most forced attempt at polposting I've seen in a while
fuck off
>>7822016
kill yourself
Have you read The Infinite Jest by DWF, aka David Foster Wallace?
>>7824253
I disagree. The best of postmodernism seems to me to simply be an attempt at making surealism, BUT NOT(tm). While some of it can be intruiging, that is usually a subtle expresion of classical values, such as deliberate and ordered shapes, or a vague mimickry of the human form. Postmodernism is different for the sake of being different, not because it has anything new to show, or because it is in any way an expression of meaning that can't be communicated through more traditional art forms, but because it looks new and therefor intruiging in an entirely juivenile way.
>talking to people who say they are into postmodernism but haven't read any of the philosophy
>>7824273
Aka Big Dave
>>7821950
Self aware stuff
>>7821978
A 19th century man vs technology story could be interesting.
>>7824734
>what is Frankenstein; or, the modern Prometheus
>What is Hard Times
>>7824866
Frankenstein is scifi. It's hardly about steam trains and how unnaturally fast they go or how those damn ladies ride bicycles now is it.
>>7824890
>What is the house of the seven gables
also
>sci-fi
>not having man vs technology as a central theme
Christ, man, read a fucking book from time to time.
>>7822016
> white people fantasizing about the grand joy of escaping social conflict through colonization
shaking my head
Postmodernism's explanation requires an understanding of modernism, first.
Go read All that is solid melts into air.
>>7824245
Thats why modern artists are more educated than ever before, most writers possessing at least a Master's degree and the idea of self-taught artist dying?
>>7824245
> Substance/Style
Your argument is the one here that lacks talent, imagination and effort.
>>7821978
kill yourself
>>7822722
are you joking?
>>7821978
this is completely wrong
>>7821987
>While we are no longer living in a postmodern society (but, rather, a post-postmodern, or perhaps even metamodern one)
shia, I like you, but please stop
>>7821950
Firstly when somewhat traditional methods of story telling are rejected ie: nonlinear plots.
Then later insincerity "Ha, you thought I was serious! Joke's on you!"
Making fun of the medium and or fans.
Often the parodies and jokes are meant to criticize for the sake of humor and don't try make a point with it.
I once heard someone call it "directionless parody."
No real definitive definition, but that's kind of the point.
>>7824734
Walden m8
>>7821950
post what?
>>7825042
DON'T LET YOUR DREAMS BE DREAMS!
>>7822056
this and difference and repetition should suffice. two very different takes on the subject, both of which are helpful
Nothing makes sense and also i'm really smart.
>>7824463
AKA Little Man
my college media professor described it as
"An aesthetic style used in media text to represent our current understanding of our age, people, culture, society, etc."
basically human culture and society worked in the same way for such a long time(modernism), that people adapted their art and media to comment on modernism from the outside, (satire, pastiche, intertextuality, bricolage, etc.)
for example, this mickey mouse cartoon is commenting on the widely accepted process of animation within the short itself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAA3DCEkVHs
>>7822151
>australia
dropped
>>7826029
Because it's horrible? Also, most of the essay doesn't even talk about Australian fiction, I was asking about the rest mostly.
>>7825881
ah, deleuze.
differences breed identities and vice-vera, causing rifts between groups of people, leading Us and Them scenarios. The Other is Us, folks.
Get your butt on the Plane of Immanence and all will be good. Holistic perspectives outweigh false dualistic dichotomies and ideological dialectics.
Postmodernism centers around the idea that nothing actually "happens". An infinite number of narratives, perspectives, and meanings can be applied to a single situation.
Postmodernism is actually really cool from an artistic and literary perspective, but beware postmodern philosophers. They are generally relativist in every sense of the term and promote absurd anti realist views.
>>7825045
God Nietzsche was retarded
>>7826369
Yeah bro modern philosophers talk so much but they never say anything
>>7826369
I tend to shout at things I dont understand too
>>7826388
I fully understand Nietzsche, that's how I know hes retarded
>>7826388
>nothing is absolute except this statement XD
Its the most blatant philosophical fallacy of all time
>>7826404
Please just kys
>>7826428
Great argument, you sure showed me
>>7821950
Basically Postmodernism= Cultural Marxism. A centuries long Semitic plot to subvert Glorious Europa's Racial Purity and objective Christian Morality
>>7826453
I dont think even the most extreme of /pol/ equate postmodernists to cultural marxism. They have nothing to do with each other, assuming cultural marxism is even a real thing which is debatable
I just took phil101 this quarter and my philosophy teacher spent half the class ranting about postmodern philosophers and relativists taking over the campus. He seems pretty intelligent, but does he have a point or is he old and out of touch?
>>7826462
The postmodernists are the ones out of touch. Quite literally.
>>7826458
Cultural Marxism is just a name that neoreaction has given to the general field of Critical Theory. They use the term Marxism because it's essentially just dividing society in oppressor/victim classes along the lines of Marx' critique of capitalists. I mean even most proponents of Critical Theory themselves will admit to being 'neo-marxist' or some such.
I don't see why they had to make up their own word for it, but that's what they mean.
>>7826469
>Quite literally
What do you mean by literally? Sorry I know little about philosophy
Anyone have that picture showing a timeline of the different meme eras?
>>7821978
This is pretty stupid.
>>7826333
deleuzian retards who make shitposts like this should be pushed out a helicopter in the middle of a starving somalian village so they can yell WHOA BRO DON'T EAT AND KILL ME, WE'RE LIKE ALL THE SAME THING AND STUFF LMAO in a desperate attempt to convince them not to roast you over a fire
>>7826552
pls respond
>>7826552
I think I don't.
>>7821950
You'll have to be more precise.
Start with
Hutechon - a poetics of postmodernism
Jameson - Postmodernism, or, the Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism
Deleuze/Guattari - Anti-Oedipus
>>7827085
>Deleuze/Guattari - Anti-Oedipus
only read this you're prepared to slog through hundreds of pages of schizophrenic nonsense about asses and bodies without organs
>>7827102
I think that, like it or not, it's a must read to understand last century's philosophy (and capitalism, why not).
There are some books published with the classes Deleuze taught on the anti-oedipus which are probably easier to read.
>>7827102
Deleuze and Guattari are undisputed geniuses m8. While I haven't read Anti-Oedipus, I've read their commentary on Kafka and a bunch of Deleuze and I've never found it to be schizophrenic nonsense. Somehow I think that the backlash against the postmodernists and poststructuralists has to do with a lack of understanding...
>>7827217
>I haven't actually read the book being discussed but I have read these other books that are not being discussed and it wasn't schizophrenic nonsense
>tells others they have a lack of understanding
this has to be satire
>>7821950
There really is no difference between modernism and 'postmodernism' because the first one's 'value' hasn't changed, which is experimentation above everything else. Postmoderns are simply experimenting even more, but there isn't much to differentiate them.
>>7821950
It's fashionable nonsense. Or at least, that's what it has turned into. The number of "hoax" scholarly articles that have been submitted to and accepted by postmodern literary journals is astounding. I understand that postmodern writers and philosophers are uncomfortable with writing plainly because it belies their belief in the instability and contingent nature of meaning. But really, their writing also invites ridicule and is ripe for parody and outright scholarly fraud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
>>7822754
>Heidegger
Don't you dare fucking touch Heidegger you dirty fucking pomo
I think therefore I don't, but not actually therefore, if anything it would be the other way around, but still no.
>>7821999
fuck you
>>7822754
The issue I've always had with that train of thought is the absolutism of it. The relation between two logical points or whatever, yes each instance is a historical occurrence which is not suspended in reality, isolated, but why would that make of it simply a structure imposed on reality? Is it not more like a member of a species, an iteration of a type? It seems like the notion of metaphor or hierarchical pattern is overlooked here, and it was used a lot in the 19th and early 20th centuries to describe how history worked in exactly this manner, so I don't understand where it went.
Also why is the level of the political predominant? Isn't his reading of the violence in language structures an entirely historical occurrence indistinguishable in nature from a member of the Nobility reading purity and honor into the language of the upper class? I don't understand whence the obsession with politics. It seems like an unexamined decision to include a kind of materialist sociology into the heart of philosophy.
>>7827394
I've touched Heidegger in ways you've only dreamed of, logocentric.
>>7829080
>I've touched Heidegger in ways you've only dreamed of
>>7827254
I don't think you understandagain
>>7829263
go back and read the exchange, and while you're at it go actually read the book being discussed before you talk about it on the internet
>>7829279
Awfully quick response, you must spend a lot of time here. I was merely pointing that I've read Deleuze and Guattari. Im sorry they are too difficult and 'schizophrenic' for you. I've read Jameson's and Nealon's essays on postmodernism. I have yet to read the one you've mentioned. Somehow, however, im sure it isn't the schizophrenic drivel you deem it to be. You're probably just stupid.
Have a nice day on 4chan m8
Say wht you will about Post-Modernism, but it's infinitely preferable to New Sincerity. Especially the way that New Sincerity has evolved in Western Society.
>>7826687
I chuckled.
But you're exactly right
>>7829307
>all this damage control
stop talking about books you haven't read on the internet
better than expected thread
>>7822056
>the cultural logic of late capitalism
This sort of thing always confused me, many discussions of modernism and post-modernism cite the effects of the industrial revolution and later globalization. While I understand these having an effect on the thought and mood of eras and societies, don't philosophical notions transcend immediate physical conditions? Unless that book concerns itself more with art and political philosophy, of course, then that makes more sense.
>>7822199
Would that be an Ulysses is considered post modern in some aspects as it parallels the Odyssey and quite a lot of Western Canon?
Nice meme
basically:
I'm not talented enough to create something with meaning. So i just create random shit and pretend it has meaning.
There's no such thing as postmodern. It's a wank-word used by assholes to give their modernist works a mystique and it leads to them coming up with more and more absurd categories such as "post-post-modern" or "post-post-post-modern" as seen above.
>>7821950
Post-modernism has a stupid range of definitions entirely dependent on how you arrive at it rather than what the definition itself actually entails. For example, you can trace literary post-modernism from the classical privilege of universals, reusing archetypal conventions and stock characters towards a refinement of beauty, which is gradually undermined by the self-affirming and self-constructing subject of the early modern era alongside the rise of the bourgeois class and novel form. Post-modernity is the state of anxiety which characterises the realisation that even the identity we carve for ourselves has been formed in the likenesses of illusory objects, autonomous myths which set the conditions necessary for their own genetic reproduction entirely inconsiderate to our approval.
>>7821950
Doesn't exist.
![knausg_rd_26-10-201_491700a[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/dZd6GLD.jpg "knausg_rd_26-10-201_491700a[1].jpg")
>>7829373
>implying New Sincerity hasn't produced the greatest literary masterpiece of this century
The age of irony is finally at its end.
>>7832427
Hey, friend. That's great, but why put this in greentext? If I recall correctly, the first rule of creative writing is "show, don't tell". Also, what was the point of the two post-link thingamajigs?
Hope this letter finds you in good health,
Fellow anon.
COCK COCK E=mc^2 WHY
Dont' ! EXIST SheSells seashellson the seashor witch which watch which sWatch watch?\1 P'Ost ModeRNnnnnnnnnnhhhhhhhnnnnnnHGHGHUhghghhhh\ ?!.=.1/>1,.xx P Sorry for my subversive metamodern style of correspondence, I have a learning disability which prevents me from controlling this. FAGGOT
>>7832832
Wow, you're so clever. Have my upvote!
>>7822075
metamodernism is a small niche in postmodernism.
It's even simpler than pre-modernism->modernism->Post-modernism
Everything is either Classical or Post-Modern
Modernist literature is the avant-garde in Classical Literature.
>>7832443
>>7830530
No. Ulysses is modernist, it's very much a parody of Odysseus, the major difference in Modernist vs. Post-modernist narratives is modernist:parody and post-modernist:pastiche. Gravity's Rainbow is a pastiche of epic journeys amidst all these other nonsensical or surrealist landscapes. Ulysses is explicit in its parody of The Odyssey, the quest/influence/anecdotes/theory of GR is all a pastiche of everything before it, lending little direct reference to its inspirations.
>>7832444
If that's what you truly believe, you need to kill yourself
metanarratives, son.
>>7821950
It isn't particularly easy to summarize.
The simplest definition is that post-modernism, in writing, is work that is aware of the ground covered by modernism.
The book may be 'aware' of the form it is in. The fact that it is a book. It may be 'aware' that it will be
read some day.
>>7821950
Gays and jews anon. Remember that.
Intellectualism in the service of hyle.
The best description of pomo I've read was pretty simple. Essentially it's a reaction against modernism, which believed that through modern technology utopia was possible. This was clearly denied by the World Wars. So pomo almost always is leery of technology. Literally every pomo masterpiece (GR, White Noise, IJ) all point to technology as a societal malaise we willingly inflict and deal with on a daily basis.
Another central tenet is that modernism attempted to find the answers through science and meaning, which in reality we found only endless abstraction and pointlessness and self reference. Pomo resists that by embracing those qualities. Examples (49, pulp fiction, literally any video game)
Lastly, and this basically a reiteration of the previous point. Pomo came from a society born from literary criticism, so they were sort of hyperaware of the devices that go into creating art and entertainment, so they brought attention to those devices (which was actually a novel idea at the time and not the lazy norm you see today)
Also a newer tenet of pomo that I've seen in nearly all art/entertainment recently is the battle of the individual against external forces of identity
-the cultural logic of late capitalism.
-the dominant culture is the culture of the dominant class
-it serves bourgeois interests
-characterized by focus on individualism, with fragmented identity, neo-liberal economics, the "autonomy of the reference", finance has most of the power in society, capitalist globalization.
-end of grandnarratives
-end of teleology
-subjectivity rules (yet all subjects are now merely objects)
I think that is every thing you need to know famalam, also you're fucked.
>>7835458
>the dominant culture is the culture of the dominant class
when has this ever not been true
>>7835453
it is not a reaction against it. postmodernism was already within the contradictions of modernism and as they played out postmodernism came into form. Gravity's Rainbow can map this out in fiction
>>7835460
before there were classes of course.
>>7832968
He's right. Parody has existed since like, Don Quixote, which was centuries before modernism. Parody can be seen as referencing a single work, where as pastiche is more or less the entire genre in spite of that genre. Like Vonnegut and Pynchon.
>>7835461
It's a movement separate from modernism and it spurns the themes addressed by it. Seems like a reaction to me.
>>7835458
is neoliberalism a necessary component of postmodernism? never quite got that
As a filthy ignorant STEM should I bother to read the entire SEP article on PM?
all of y'all need to read this
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/02/23/saved-from-drowning
>>7835482
why not lol
>>7835460
What would you say about hip hop? Only the main form of black music because it's been co-opted by the industry big wigs to satisfy mainly middle class tastes?
>>7835453
Is this what they teach in American schools? Because it's all wrong.
Only a limited amount of modernist movements were particularly fond of technology (e.g. futurists); by and large, modernism itself was a reaction to the perceived loss of sense consequent to WW1.
>>7835481
No, because postmodernism can be found on the opposite side of the spectrum. Some boards on 4chan, which (fairly recently, actually) adopted a righty stance, uses postmodernism to defend their ideology. It's basically the internet equivalent to "I know you are but what am I?".
Also, see that Trump is only successful because he actively ridicules political conduct and norms, yet still acts within those norms.
>>7835501
>all wrong
>refutes a single point
At least Lady Liberty taught me to debate properly.
>>7829210
top kek
>>7821950
Postmodernism is the one where people say that author/artist's intent means nothing and it's all about the details people interpret from it, even if the author calls you an absolute madman for suggesting that they predicted 9/11 nine years before it happened?
>>7835603
>He thinks he had more than one point
>>7824890
its about galvanization and the enlightenment replacing God retard
You create something, but you don't put any effort into it.
>>7824962
Are you? There really isn't anything "insincere" about his books and that interpretation of postmodern irony as "insincere" is a retarded reflex of the most cheap and banal sort of American sentimentalism.
>>7821954
now this is PO-MO
>>7821999
Thanks for making me projectile vomit.
what does: "the autonomy of representation" mean?
>>7835503
>Also, see that Trump is only successful because he actively ridicules political conduct and norms, yet still acts within those norms.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but Trump is kind of post-modern.
This whole election is pretty on the nose, with people constantly debating what constitutes being 'okay' for an election/candidate in the first place.
>>7821954
/thread
>>7821950
It's the one after modernism
>>7836110
What the fuck is irony if not insincere?
>>7837901
https://tomerpersicoenglish.wordpress.com/2016/03/10/donald-trump-as-a-postmodern-god/
>>7822722
frankly I consider the early Pynchon either a high modernist in the spirit of Joyce, or a "transitional figure." to put it in terms of the meme trilogy i think everyone here is familiar with, i would argue Gravity's Rainbow is much closer to Ulysses than Infinite Jest is to Gravity's Rainbow.
>>7838054
gravity's rainbow starts modernism and ends postmodernist. very much in purpose.
inherent vice is postmodern hardboiled crime stuff
vineland is postmodern westcoast posthippie ken kesey shit
bleeding edge is postmodern ?????
Postmodernism is an excuse for people with poor spiritual and emotional lives and constitution to feel as if theyre creating art.
Postmodernism is an opportunity for failure to go unnoticed.
Have you ever bought cheese in bulk online but once it arrives you realize you got the wrong kind?
it's nothing like that
