Isn't the Illiad an ancient reflection on post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) of war veterans returning home and not being able to adapt to civilian society? Or am I reading it to anachronistically.
>>7800199
>Illiad
the Odyssey* my apologies
>>7800199
kek
>Isn't it
No.
It's not 'about' any specific thing.
The war veterans don't even return home, it's more about having them to choose the destiny of glory and death over a normal civilian life which most of them would prefer.
I don't know where you are getting that the book ends before they even leave.
The Odyssey is kind of like that though, Odysseus goes overboard when he gets back home and kills the suitors like he is still at war.
>>7800283
But when Odysseus reaches Ithica, he basically continues to murder everyone until he's stopped. He can't adapt to civilian life, even after the war
>>7800295
That would be the Odyssey, champ.
Read Ajax by Sophocles, OP.
There is a lot of post-tragedy stress in Greek stories and sure its relate able to the PTSD of modern war veterans you are talking about. The Greeks wrote about a lot of real human problems
>>7800199
Not about PTSD. It's about right and wrong, crime and punishment, and teaching morals to all.
>>7800199
PTSD, anxiety, depression, the loss of a lover, delirium, all sorts.
John Green explains it well here
https://youtu.be/MS4jk5kavy4?t=10m
>>7800355
>John Green
Saw this channel before, is it any good?
>>7800359
he puts a bit too much of his opinion into things at times but it's easy to ignore. The animations are entertaining so it's probably worth watching if you have nothing better to do
>>7800363
like he includes a segment on its double standard treatment of women which doesn't have a lot to do with understanding the story in ancient context.
>>7800355
Somewhere, someone is using this as a source for academic work.
>>7800378
yeah, me, I'm preparing a thesis on John Green's faggotry in between teaching Second year Basic Memes at a community college
>>7800378
all of the statements he gives have academic backings to them so you just have to find the sources he uses. I bet you use wikipedia which is just as simplistic
>>7800199
It's about a man that loves his wife.
>>7800199
I've seen two books on this subject, and there are probably more. One was called Achilles in Vietnam, IIRC which I may not.
I had about this once, we discussed about how odyssevs was someone chose to have a balance between lust - by accepting to sleep with the woman but staying true to his wive. I guess we didnt go deeper
^
someone who chose*
The Odyssey completes the thematic arc of mans pursuit of glory and immortality beginning with Achilles with Odysseus becoming it's archetypal heir. The Odyssey is the story of the worlds transition from the Heroic Age of legendary men and monsters into the humble mortality of the Iron Age. It's an allegorical journey in which Odysseus is the soul of man on it's journey through life facing and overcoming the temptations of conquest, glory and self idolization. We see his metamorphosis within two images in the story, first at his peak of prideful delusions of God hood in the temple of Circe, dressed in Achilles radiant white armor with the witch Queen on his lap, red faces and manic with ecstasy, then we see his fullest actualization in humility and wisdom when he's dressed in beggars robes hugging his son in Eumaeus's hut at the end of his life's journey. The ideal proposed in the Odyssey is that the ultimate pursuit of a man's life is not Godhood and conquest, but to find fulfillment in being with his wife and children and to know his place is in his own home
>>7800199
I think that it is very important to have reference to the earliest story of the Odyssey, where he sacks the town but the spares the priest the women (if memory serves), and enough of the men escape that they are able to light a signal fire and to come back and fuck his men up.
Then when he comes home, after holding out on his son and wife he proceeds to skewer the suitors in a cowardly fashion (his knees quake when they arm themselves, though you could relate this to his constant humanity cf. the fact he is the only character in the Iliad who talks about food), he hangs his maids, not really differentiating between the guilty and innocent, he kills the priest, though he spares the musician for some reason. My point is he acts in a full on immoral manner, which is further confirmed when the nice suitor's ghost tells the tale to Agamemnon, who agrees it is a tragedy until he's told it was perpetrated by Odysseus. And before that there is the extremely puzzling action of deceiving his father, again very impious, for no obvious reason. Now parts of that you certainly could relate to the idea that he is a traumatised man, maybe even Agamemnon volte face as a kind of forgiveness for the deranged (pushing it), but a lot defies explanation if we are to assume Odysseus is a heroic character. He is not true to himself, he is not brave, he has petty lapses of judgment and he cannot control or save his men. When they doom themselves by eating The Sun's cattle he is maundering on some fucking hill.
I'm not really sure what the point of this is, other than perhaps the intentional creation of a character whose flaws go beyond those heroic ones that belong to tragedy, and would thereby subvert Heroic ideals in a nominally heroic character.sozzles for the week ending there, this is the spittiest of balls
>>7800884
I've come to think of Odysseus and his journey as a sort of cathartic acceptance of mans inability to live up to the ideals of heroism we set for ourselves no matter how great the effort put forth towards it
>>7800898
I don't want to seem like a sperglord here, but don't you think the Agamemnon episode undermines this? Maybe you can take his impious killings as a heroic furor (forgot my greek) or something, which is then rendered human by his terror, but I still don't feel like Agamemnon deciding it's fine because Odysseus did it fits in with the cathartic idea.
>>7800987
I don't know, perhaps Odysseus represents a redefinition of the heroic ideal in a world growing distant from the world of Herakles. This shifting in what is held as the heroic ideal is exemplified in the story of Odysseus and Ajax the Greater both making their bid to be granted the armor of Achilles, and through it elevate themselves to his former status. Ajax the Greater was the hero that carried the torch for the archaic warrior traditions of honor and strength, while Odysseus was the serpent tongued manipulator who exemplified the ways of contemporary men. The death of Ajax marks the death of those ideals
>a Greek thread that isn't total shit
I'm genuinely surprised. I'm not OP, but thanks for the comments; I've enjoyed your insight.
They have known about PTSD for a long time except back then they would send them right back into battle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker
Berserkers (or berserks) were Norse warriors who are primarily reported in the Old Norse literature to have fought in a nearly uncontrollable, trance-like fury, a characteristic which later gave rise to the English word berserk. Berserkers are attested to in numerous Old Norse sources.
The Úlfhéðnar (singular Úlfheðinn), another term associated with berserkers, mentioned in the Vatnsdæla saga, Haraldskvæði and the Völsunga saga, were said to wear the pelt of a wolf when they entered battle.[1] Úlfhéðnar are sometimes described as Odin's special warriors: "[Odin's] men went without their mailcoats and were mad as hounds or wolves, bit their shields...they slew men, but neither fire nor iron had effect upon them. This is called 'going berserk'."[2]:132 In addition, the helm-plate press from Torslunda depicts (below) a scene of Odin with a berserker—"a wolf skinned warrior with the apparently one-eyed dancer in the bird-horned helm, which is generally interpreted as showing a scene indicative of a relationship between berserkgang... and the god Odin[3]"—with a wolf pelt and a spear as distinguishing features
>>7801030
Maybe you could do quite a fun comparison of Hesiod and the lawmen of Works and Days and Odysseus, my upcoming paper shall be titled 'Bastards of the 8th century'.
I must admit to not knowing the death of Ajax beyond the basic summary, so I'm going to justify that by saying that one should stick to Odyssean Odysseus as a separate entity from the later Odysseus, who was roundly reviled. I think it is very odd for a man who does wrong to be openly praised even while his actions are decried and that is the biggest puzzle of the Odyssey. Does anyone know any good contradictory folk tales with which to compare it?
As to taking up Achilles mantle: Ajax is a rather better man than Achilles, they both suffer their fatal flaws but Achilles is more selfish and more incontinent, V bad for Greeks who like self restraint. There is a good irony in one of the least individualistic heroes going mad over not being awarded the prize, I've also just remembered that they contested before in the wrestling bout, when Ajax tries to bring about a fair end and doesn't grumble. So I say further discontinuity!
How about a unifying theme of protagonists who disobey the heroic code, Achilles and Odysseus. Achilles for childlike pride and Odysseus because he seemingly does not give a fuck about other people.
Christ Odyesseus is odd, a year with Circe and his men have to force him out, then weeping after 7 years with Calypso. Perhaps I should go heretical and simply view it as weakness of story, or due to the conflation of trickster-god travelling Odysseus and Trojan/return Odysseus (thanks Robby Graves) into one cycle.
>>7801159
The Achaeans defined their value of mens actions based upon their results rather than their intentions. While Odysseus was most certainly cruel and malicious in his intentions, his actions always resulted in a great victory in overcoming his enemies. That's what made him a hero in their eyes. His trickery led the Greeks to the spoils of Troy
>>7800199
ptsd is felt hardest by those that don't win and have to live.
>>7801159
In the same way the imagery of Achilles dressed in his God forged white armor killing Hector dressed in the black armor of Achilles that was taken from the corpse of Patroclus was a symbolic expression of Achilles finally fulfilling the fate he had been contemplating the entire story, the ascent of himself as a deity enacting the wrath of the Cosmos upon the mortals beneath him at the cost of the death and desecration of fulfilling his fate as an honorable and mortal man who could have lived a long happy life with a family to love him, which symbolically died with Hector who embodied that kind of honor, we see a similar conflict between identity as a man of honor or the executioner of a savage rage levied against ones enemies with Ajax and his struggle against Odysseus for the prize of Achilles armor, which is almost a One Ring esque source of compulsion towards such acts of savagery.
After losing out in his bid for the prize, Ajax in disillusionment, fury and intoxicated delusion butchers a herd of sheep thinking they were his compatriots that denied him his object of desire, a symbolic expression of the death of his piety and inner virtue. Upon realizing that he had given into his most dishonorable impulses to betray his friends and allies, he fell upon his sword in the same fashion a dishonored samurai would perform a ritual suicide. This marked within the Greeks a rejection of archaic traditions and warrior principles in favor of the manipulative trickery of Odysseus in getting what they wanted
>>7800294
>>7800295
>>7800302
>>7800299
Even that doesn't really count because it was the acceptable thing to do by the standards of the time. Greek myths are largely about humans being tested by their own flaws and the machinations of the gods (as a proxy for nature, fate, etc.) the idea of a piece about PTSD is an entirely modern notion.
>>7801366
Ooh, could you give me lines referring to the colour of the armour? That sounds like excellent territory for iconotropy and terribly fun.
And if you're basing your argument on any secondary literature I'd love a link, I'm afraid its 3 am and I'm not firing on all cylinders, but you'll get something like a decent reply in the end.
>>7801159
>>7801297
Also, when it comes to the aspect of Achilles extreme pride, vanity and arrogance in regards to everyone around him, he was wholly deserving in exhibiting those characteristics and this was something understood by all of the other Achaean heroes. It was the nature of Achilles to be this lofty figure who held himself above all others without having any sense of delusion as to the true extent of his greatness. He would have been betraying his true nature and the honesty he lived every aspect of his life with if he would have accepting the disrespect of Agamemnon and still fought under him, even if it was for the sake of his fellow soldiers.
10//10 thread, would read again
>>7801410
it's so sad that this kind of honest arrangement has become impossible under christianity
>>7800884
I've heard it said that the Greeks thought poets and musicians to be closer to the gods than priests. It could explain that little oddity.
>>7801466
I'm sure the poet/musician composing or reciting the work did.
I've always liked a footnote I read somewhere about Homer's fondness for the swineherd, who he is forever referring to as a particularly excellent man. I keep meaning to look into the religious significance of swineherds (pigs being sacred animals) and see if I can draw any ideas, I'm sure it's been done before.
>>7800884
>My point is he acts in a full on immoral manner
immoral under christianity, maybe. the homeric greeks hadn't been poisoned by the jews
>>7801477
>I keep meaning to look into the religious significance of swineherds (pigs being sacred animals)
pynchon confirmed for starting with the greeks
>>7801479
Spoken like someone who never read the Old Testament. Don't blame the Jews for christfags being pussies, the Jews were perfectly fine with slaughtering entire populations because god told them they needed to.
>>7801477
>I keep meaning to look into the religious significance of swineherds (pigs being sacred animals
So maybe the pig in the Lord of the Flies was about establishing a domestic religion to cope with the fact that they were thrown onto the Island after the crash? Like humans are thrown into existence in a existential way and need religion to cope? (Cfr. Heidegger, Satre, Camus)
>>7801491
slave morality comes from the jews, from their time in egypt, where they mastered the art of using moral spooks to undermine the ruling class, at least familiarize yourself with the works of nietzsche before wrongposting
>>7801503
Isn't it slave morality to blame to jews?
>>7801512
oh god get a fucking clue dude
>>7801512
Unwitting slave moralist who thinks he gets Nietzsche BTFO.
>>7801512
>autist trying to grasp Nietzsche
>alludes to institutionalized racism
>>7801410
Now I was always taught that it wasn't that the Greeks necessarily disregarded the motivations for the effects, but rather that one can be heroic without being good, or at least universally good. What I'm attempting to talk about when I refer to evil or impiety or immorality is things which directly go against the greek conception of morality (if I don't misinterpret them it is by the morality expressed in the books themself). If you wanted a later source, which actually bothers to comment on people being good or bad because it's by a Roman, think Mezentius, who is explicitly named evil and then acts heroicly and then (the little moralising bugger) has a sort of final redemption from his atheism before Aeneas kills him.
Equally men who do doomed actions which are valiant (e.g. Hector, to an extent) continue to be seen as heroic even though they fail, because their intentions were good and they were true to themselves.
Further: Remember he doesn't just stop fighting, but he also refuses perfectly good apology gifts, very important to primitive legality, including the return of Briseis (I think). He watches his friends dying and through his refusal to fight condemns his honorable if overexcitable friend to death. But this still fits pretty well in the whole flawed hero tragedy system, he is just particularly flawed.
Odysseus doesn't seem to have a guiding principle/flaw and he doesn't express this heroism, but neither is he a good man like Nestor who follows the rules of society. By his infidelity with Circe he shows himself as infidelitous, by the cessation of it by his men he shows himself weak, by weeping with Calypso he doesn't even have the guiding-flaw of lust. The Greeks, in my opinion, and I realise this is what you (or the other man) are trying to correct me on by saying Odysseus is the pragmatic new man, sought constancy above other things in their heroes, moral or not. Odysseus is inconstant. And my argument against him being the pragmatic new man is his ineffectiveness when compared to rule-abiders like Nestor, or people like Diomedes (sorry, I know he's a bit too nice for a really strong case, but I can't think of a rule-breaking but consistent hero who came out well).
If I can do a weak rebuttal to Ajax man, I like your idea of Achilles armour as a source of incontinence and rage, but couldn't you call Ajax's suicide a vindication of his own heroic constancy rather than the symbol of its subsumption by Tricky-Odycky.
And something about how Telemachus is very pious.
>>7801492
I'm going to use my shield of absolute credulity and say that you're onto something as pigs are the most domestic of the main meat animals. However I think that there is probably significance is Goldings' use in the fact that pigs are greedy, cannibalistic, alarmingly anthropomorphic and on a base level the most likely animal to be found on the island.
The religion part is obvious, but I think the importance lies in what they choose as their godhead, rather than that they create one
big other sniff sniff
>>7801400
I'll try to post the specific lines in a later post, as it will probably take me a long time with my attention span, but yeah, the color, design and ornamentation of the armor each hero wore is one of the most prominent aspects of the symbolism throughout the story. Their armor had the connotation of reflecting their inner character that they were bringing into battle. We see the description of armors and shields used as a layered way of both describing the details of the scene and introducing who a specific character individualized from everyone else in his army. The taking of a heroes armor by an enemy was one of the frequent sources of conflict that is built off of this symbolism.
We see the humanity in the duality of Achilles nature expressed through Patroclus, who is struck with empathy for his fellow Greeks when watching them return to their camp wounded, knowing that they are crying out for Achilles to return to the front. Knowing Achilles will not be persuaded to fight for the sake of the Greek army under the command of Agamemnon, Patroclus upon wearing his black armor assumes the idealization of Achilles as an honorable mortal warrior who fights for his brothers in his place, and ideal which has up until this point had been exemplified by Hector, but in a reversal in relation to Patroclus has begun being swayed by the spirit of Ares in disregarding the welfare of his army with the increasing aggression of his attacks, thirsty for the violence of battle and the approaching defeat of the Greeks. When he kills Patroclus and takes his armor, he's at the same time taking the prospect of living that life away from Achilles, which brings about the swift destruction of his land and people. Hector wears the armor that symbolizes the last of Achilles humanity, with the hyper vivid detailing of his new armor forged to consecrate his coming apotheosis creating this symbolic mural the expresses the nature of the ordered Cosmos of the Olympians as a tragedy, it's prosperity and despair put in contrast with one another, the cruelty of one giving depth of meaning to the other, neither side of life having true meaning until ended by the other. Once he is at the point of wearing this armor, the focus of his will all at once becomes aligned with the very nature of the Cosmos itself, becoming the herald of divine wrath upon the earth.
The whole grand drama of events that culminates with the Rage of Achilles is in the fullest sense a lamentation and at the same time also a celebration of the suffering that defines our existence
>>7801761
>>7801492
From a religious perspective of Odysseus, his metamorphosis from his youth in the Trojan war to his matured wisdom he reaches by the end of his journey home could be understood as analogous with the contrast in the nature of the Messianic figures between the Old and New Testament, with the leap between the lion nature of King David to the lamb nature of Jesus. You could interpret the inner development of Odysseus from prideful hero to humble man of wisdom as a similar Old to New Testament fulfillment of spiritual growth, with the symbolism of the swineherd having the same connotation as the shepherd it terms of righteousness.
>>7801754
It might seem strange, but I think that to a certain degree the kind of inconstancy is intentionally woven into these characters and their stories. I often have found that the Greeks had this way of defining concepts that seemingly only create a fractured contradiction of thoughts, but once fully understood will yield an ordered, cohesive conception of something. Often times this is fulfilled by establishing something within the framework of the story as the way the nature of something or someone is understood in it's relationship with the world, then introducing story elements that contradict that nature, but is something not acknowledged within the framework of the story, it's something only the one reading the story would take away with, the idea being that this will build upon both the original assertion and how the inconsistency occurred, revealing a hidden complexity within the meaning of the character or story that neither could have revealed on their own. What I mean is, maybe Odysseus himself acts as this inconsistency in the nature of the things he experiences at times in order to allow this added layer to be introduced, less an idol to be emulated but an example to be learned from in our navigation through life and all of it's hidden obstacles.
>>7800359
He's utter shit. Wait around for another thread on /lit/ about him and you will get some good analyses and explanations of his stupidity
>>7801821
By the time Odysseus engages in the battle with the suitor, he no longer derives any pleasure from the display of his prowess or seeks glory or the revelry of victory. His massacre of the suitors is portrayed as the ordained will of the Gods, with Odysseus acting as a faithful servant in it's execution. He has accepted it is not his place to question such divine matters.
>>7801764
The descriptions too long, but here's a rendition of the hyper vivid mural etched into Achilles shield who's imagery is meant to encompass the duality of fate giving the peacefulness of life, moments like Hector at home in the walls of Troy with his wife and new born son and also give meaning to the horrific cruelty that fate also sends to end such moments of peace, in this case in the form of Achilles.
>>7801900
Past The Odyssey it can be presumed that Odysseus had to commit to his oath to preach for Poseidon. The two books are packed with lessons, and one doesn't have to read far into it to find them.
The Iliad in particular has an excellent warning through Agamemnon's foolishness when addressing the Achaeans to admit defeat to try and drum up more courage. We can't all expect a more clever friend to bail us out of such ineffective trickery.
Doubtful. PTSD has existed forever most likely but was probably heavily shunned by as a concept as being something a pussy would do.
Masculinity use to be a lot more rigid, back then it was considered manly to rape other men as long as it was you were doing the penetration. Similair concepts existed in pre-Christian Scandinavia as well. In a society that gives you a pass for raping another dude to display dominance, I don't think a lot sympathy would be present for a guy who had displayed a significant trauma to the sustained horrors of war, violence and combat.
That being said, the Illiad does have the bit at the end with Priam and Achillies lamenting the loss of their dead which seemed uncharacteristically modern to me.
>>7803667
It's not modern at all, Homeric warriors frequently express extreme emotion, including deep despondency and sadness. Zeus weeps over Sarpedon, Odysseus cries when he hears the story of the war re-told. They had a fairly subtle view of the world and weren't the mere blocks of muscle and stone mouths. To go even earlier you can think of GIlgamesh ruined by the death of Enkidu.
>>7803667
>>7803682
Achilles was especially womanly in his nature compared to the other heroes, being extremely histrionic in his emotions and i general being smooth faced and beautiful. The Greeks thought it an expression of ones higher nature to have this almost childlike purity in the way one like Achilles would feel his emotions without hiding or repressing anything
>>7800199
>ancient greeks
>feeling bad about killing
It was a warfare society, you fucking retard.
>Lying dead is good, when a brazen person fights for his homeland and falls in the first line.
Leaving the city, and his fertile lands and begging, wandering with the loved mother, the old father, the kids, the dear wife, is the most dreadful thing.
>Wherever he goes, he will be as an enemy, he, who is an exiled victime of the need and the disdained misery. And he filithies his family, he pejorates his form, every basiness follows him, every infamy. If there is no cure for who goes so lone, there is no respect or pity or attention, we fight full of love for the homeland and for the sons we die. Let us not spare our lives.
>Come, fight you next to each other, young people, don't push your impetus for vile escapes, for panic. Make your soul in the chest big and strong, ban the vile love for life,
because the fight is against men; don't leave, going away, who has agility nomore: the old men. It's a shame seeing an old man falling on the first line, and lying on the ground in front of the young people, with the white head and grey chin, and his cocky soul breathing in the dust, hiding his blood-covered parts(indecent, cruel show) with his hands, bare is his body. There is nothing better for a young man while the dear age shines in its acme.
>When he is alive, all men admire him, all the women love him. He falls in the first line, he is handsome.
>Everyone stay with his legs well hammered on the ground, biting the lips with his teeth.
>>7801754
>Equally men who do doomed actions which are valiant (e.g. Hector, to an extent) continue to be seen as heroic even though they fail, because their intentions were good and they were true to themselves
Not only did he fail, he also fled the duel. He's a hero because he's superior to the normal people. That's it.
He reminds me of Christ. No wonder tha character had success in the modern days.
>>7803755
Nobody on either side of the war could have blamed him for running when he did, and even with that, once he realized that the Gods were against him, he faced Achilles in battle even though he knew he'd almost immediately die
>>7803667
Not really. Even thought they were indeed a society based on warfare there was a lot of sensibility on the matter.
Read Archilochus.
>One of the Saiôn in Thrace now delights in the shield I discarded
>Unwillingly near a bush, for it was perfectly good,
>But at least I got myself safely out. Why should I care for that shield?
>Let it go. Some other time I'll find another no worse.
>>7803774
Where did I say otherwise?
That's why I said he reminds me of Christ.
>>7800378
>tfw my professor uses Crash Course as a source of information
If you think this then you have no understanding of the epic as a genre or ancient Greece. Odysseus is not supposed to be a tormented veteran, but rather an idealized representation of Greek values. The killing of the suitors, though dubious by our moral standards, would appear just to Homer and his fellow Greeks.
>>7803735
Yeah quote a military propagandist from Sparta, bound to be balanced. That's almost like quoting Sassoon's The Kiss and calling it the whole first war experience.
'Priam raised a cry and beat his head with his hands as he lifted them up and shouted out to his dear son, imploring him to return; but Hector still stayed before the gates, for his heart was set upon doing battle with Achilles. The old man reached out his arms towards him and bade him for pity's sake come within the walls. "Hector," he cried, "my son, stay not to face this man alone and unsupported, or you will meet death at the hands of the son of Peleus, for he is mightier than you. Monster that he is; would indeed that the gods loved him no better than I do, for so, dogs and vultures would soon devour him as he lay stretched on earth, and a load of grief would be lifted from my heart, for many a brave son has he reft from me, either by killing them or selling them away in the islands that are beyond the sea: even now I miss two sons from among the Trojans who have thronged within the city, Lycaon and Polydorus, whom Laothoe peeress among women bore me. Should they be still alive and in the hands of the Achaeans, we will ransom them with gold and bronze, of which we have store, for the old man Altes endowed his daughter richly; but if they are already dead and in the house of Hades, sorrow will it be to us two who were their parents; albeit the grief of others will be more short-lived unless you too perish at the hands of Achilles. Come, then, my son, within the city, to be the guardian of Trojan men and Trojan women, or you will both lose your own life and afford a mighty triumph to the son of Peleus. Have pity also on your unhappy father while life yet remains to him- on me, whom the son of Saturn will destroy by a terrible doom on the threshold of old age, after I have seen my sons slain and my daughters haled away as captives, my bridal chambers pillaged, little children dashed to earth amid the rage of battle, and my sons' wives dragged away by the cruel hands of the Achaeans; in the end fierce hounds will tear me in pieces at my own gates after some one has beaten the life out of my body with sword or spear-hounds that I myself reared and fed at my own table to guard my gates, but who will yet lap my blood and then lie all distraught at my doors. When a young man falls by the sword in battle, he may lie where he is and there is nothing unseemly; let what will be seen, all is honourable in death, but when an old man is slain there is nothing in this world more pitiable than that dogs should defile his grey hair and rip his beard and genitals."
>>7800295
That's still anachronistic. The reason he murders the sooters isn't because of PTSD its because in Greek society, being cuckolded is disgraceful, so he murders them in order to preserve his honor (the greek term being "times" which is a major theme in the odyssey and to a much greater extent the Illiad)
>>7800392
Defensive over JG? Or perhaps CC in general? Either way you're a massive faggot.
>>7800199
We still just call it shell shock !
>>7800355
"You can tell that i'm an english teacher because i'm wearing a sweater, and you can tell that i'm an english teacher who wants to be your friend because i'm wearing awesome sneakers."
What did he mean?
>>7803780
If you want a bouncier translation
'Some Saian sports my splendid shield,
I had to leave in in a wood,
but saved my skin, Well I don't care --
I'll get another just as good'
And this man was no coward
'On my spear my daily bread,
on my spear my wine
from ismaros, and drinking it,
it's on my spear I recline.'
how's this for balanced?
...his teeth were chattering...
As for running when you have to -- as in that occasion god,
being angry with those people drove the enemy on--
that was no dusgrace to you...my long haired lad,
that you shook your sturdy shield off and turned taill...
braver men than you have given way in panics such as that;
nobody can beat the gids.But as for quitting the campaign
out of all the rest, and coming hotfoot back across the sea,
not a scratch on you, well now, there's not much glory in that.'
And just because I like it. Critical comparison of first world war and Greek martial poetry when?
To these I turn, in these I trust—
Brother Lead and Sister Steel.
To his blind power I make appeal,
I guard her beauty clean from rust.
He spins and burns and loves the air,
And splits a skull to win my praise;
But up the nobly marching days
She glitters naked, cold and fair.
Sweet Sister, grant your soldier this:
That in good fury he may feel
The body where he sets his heel
Quail from your downward darting kiss.
I don’t like an army commander who’s tall, or goes at a trot,
or one who has glamorous wavy hair, or trims his beard a lot.
A shortish sort of chap, who’s bandy-looking round the shins,
he’s my ideal, one full of guts, and steady on his pins.
>>7803966
It's the M.L. West translation, evidently he takes liberties (at least when he feels like rhyming).
>>7803966
There are other poets, including Homer, who provide a somewhat more nuanced view than 'Sell your life gloriously before the old', so its hardly fair to say that the Greeks had such a blase attitude to getting hacked to pieces, or indeed hacking other people to pieces.
Even if you view them as basically uninclined to spare soldiers (I can't remember very much effective knee clasping) priests and women were often left alive.
>>7804058
Fair, fair. One calls to mind the straightforward 'Are you a merchant or a pirate?' Odysseus gets. But I think one can be required by society to kill and still think of the deeper implications, christ, I'm fairly sure there is a line somewhere (Greek) about the woe of cows whose calves we take from them under the sledgehammer. They had empathy with their enemy.
>>7803712
A perfect example of this is in the story of Penthesilea and her twelve Amazon sisters joining the Trojan war on the side of Troy as mercenaries after the funerals of Hector and Patroclus. Penthesilea was the last great hero of the Amazonian nation, who after disgracing herself with the accidental murder of her sister sought to end her life in honor and glory by facing Achilles in combat. At this point, Achilles had already exacted his Rage upon the Trojans and was now sick with visions and contemplation of his inevitable death that was promised for him. Both Achilles and Penthesilea were the last bastions of a heroic vitality in the world that would never return once they were gone from it, and they tragically saw this reflected in one another.
When the two heroes finally clash and Achilles mortally wounds Penthesilea, he witnesses in her a moment of such earnest vulnerability, her pleading against her death and overcome with fear and sorrow before he delivers the killing blow. Achilles after this removes her helmet and upon looking on her face, recognizes within himself the very same inescapable despair and trembling pusillanimity in the face of his death, falls to his knees and weeps like a child, embracing her body with mournful love.
It's the most revealing moment of vulnerability we see in the character of Achilles, something that cuts to the core of his emotions.
>>7804486
I think some point in the Odyssey Odysseus takes pity on his enemy and spares him, thinking that he wouldn't want to be killed if he were in his position. A goddess rebukes him saying that one should delight in slaughtering one's enemies.
In the Odyssey Achilles, in hades, says that is better to be a slave on earth than a king in hell.
This confirms that the pagan world was a world of despair and that the pagan gods were demons. Thank you once again based Christianity for bringing hope into this hopeless world.
>>7804501
>pagan world
>the bravest of the bravest warriors
>"it's sweet and fitting to die for one's country, r-right guys? At least when I'm dead my fame will live on . . ."
>Fame is the immortality of pagans
>Christian world
>literal slave girls standing up to emperors
>throw themselves into death with joy, praying for their executioners while dying
>don't expect worldly fame, only the glory of God
>The hope of true immortality
Christianity is too good not to be true
>>7804501
The Olympians have always been fallen angels. Apollo and Lucifer being almost identical figures is powerful evidence of that
>>7801900
I feel like the character of Nestor illustrates this idea fairly well. Nestor, being the oldest of all the Achaean heroes is held by them all as their window of knowledge into the old world of Herakles, the officiator of wisdom who's word on the attempts others levy towards giving wise council affirms or denies the validity it has. This position of wisdom held by Nestor is never questioned by the Achaeans, with him even always being celebrated for it, but from our perspective as the audience of the story, we see that the men who follow the advice of Nestor most often seem to suffer dire consequences from it. His advice would be seen by the audience as archaic, only fulfilling the nostalgic fantasies of an old man who seemingly only wants to see the young men of the times act like the heroes he knew of old. He urges the Greeks to abandon their method of conducting coastal sea raids of Trojan cities to instead carry their ships upon the land facing the gate of Troy, build fortifications around it and engage in full scale warfare instead of small skirmishes, he pushes the men under him to fight in the style of the great men of the past at the expense of tactical advantage, and most importantly he encourages Patroclus to don the armor of Achilles and enter the battle.
Each time we see the Achaeans follow the council of Nestor, we see them suffer and die because of it while never questioning their perception of him as a wise man. From our perspective, Nestor may come across as foolish, and those who listen to him even more so, but in the wider spectrum of the conflict each decision Nestor urges his allies towards is an integral part of moving the whole series of events taking place in the Trojan theater forward, the move from skirmishes to unrestrained war between the full force of the two armies being the beginning of the final series of these events, and his urging of Patroclus to fight as Achilles being the event that finally brings about the conclusion of the grand drama of the Iliad.
>>7804532
I thought Lucifer was associated with Venus.
>>7804799
There's an aspect of almost all of the Olympians in the figure of Lucifer, but in terms of how they are both portrayed visually and the roles they both serve in Olympus and Heaven respectively, Apollo and Lucifer are closely aligned. Apollo also is the subject of a myth detailing his rebellion against his father and banishment from divinity which is very similar to Lucifers story
>>7800884
His knees quaked because he was finna solo a bunch of dudes.
Read pic related. Odysseus in America. It's written by a psychiatrist who uses the Odyssey as a parallel to the experience of Vietnam vets. Pretty well received in the field of Classics.
