So what's /Lit/ view on having guns in a fantasy novel? Does it ruin the premise, or does it mix it up a bit?
>>7744665
need I even say it? Need I?
dosent really matter, whatever you add just make sure its consistent.
>>7744665
Well, the second amendment to the US constitution requires that books feature a gun at least once a chapter (either brandished or fired), so I guess, yes you need them.
>>7744665
>fantasy
Go back to /r/books please.
>>7744671
Done in two.
I will add that I enjoy a complete dominance of one side over another - either 'magical fields disrupt anything beyond basic technology', or 'magic grows weaker in high-tech areas.'
The only issue is that introducing sniper rifles into your fantasy novel means the author will be constantly besieged by one question on every page: "Why not snipe the fuck out of it?"
"They haven't invented better guns yet" is a weak solution.
"Quality gunsmithing materials are hard to find" is not much better.
"Bespoke magic shields are magnitudes stronger than the kinetic energy of the bullets" is what I would personally go for, because I'm a huge nerd.
If it's commensurate with the technology, fine.
But remember, before cartridges, most long guns will take minutes to prepare, and they're aren't hitting anything beyond 20 yards.
>>7744665
Wene Golfe
>>7744691
Technically correct, but this is one area where missing a bit of history will really ruin a whole analysis.
Paper cartridges were invented pretty much along with hand-held firearms, so unless you're Master and Commandering a world filled with naval field guns, it probably won't be an issue.
20 yards is only about 5 parked cars. I would generously double that estimate, and then some.
>>7744665
depends on what you mean by 'fantasy'
crap settings where world-changing technologies, creatures, and beings change NOTHING over thousands of years, sure, the guns are just another poorly implemented plot point among many, why NOT include them?
semi-realistic setting with guns? Sure, they're a good reason for humanity to start turning the tide against monsters/kings
Heroic Bronze/Iron Age? Fuck off
>>7744727
>not wanting Conan the Barbarian with a gun
That just means you can give their enemies riot shields. ez
>>7744737
The problem with Conan with a gun is that Conan is about being a superior person, not having superior armaments. Muh riddle of steel! If guns existed in Conan, he'd end up killing 4 gunmen with rocks because they were weak city-dwellers who lacked killing instinct and combat reflexes
Steampunk, basically.
>>7744755
I just wanted to say that I agree with everything said in this post, except the end
More like they appear to be strong and imposing warriors who are too arrogant and unpracticed to be truly warrior-like.
>>7744758
Just to add to this, it's a long way from "mixing it up a bit" if you consider that the Dwarves have guns in something as popular as Warcraft. It's not strictly Steampunk, but it's something Steampunk often does.
>>7744758
The world's technology will be around WW1. The guns will be before, or around WW1 they are only a few created. Magic is still prevalent, the world just got of a second great war, with an arms race going on. Does it make sense or do I scrap it
>>7744766
That depends entirely on how you present it. Honestly from your written English, I'd be more worried about writing coherently than about the guns.
>>7744782
Sorry i'm typing on mobile, so excuse my horrible grammar
>>7744790
Okay. From a quick google, I found that there's a Steampunk YA trilogy called Leviathan by Some Guy that's set in the WW1 era (here's a map) but there's no mention of magic. That might be of interest to you. That Jonathan Strange VS Mr Norrell book touches on something similar. There are a couple of pages on tvtropes that might be useful too;
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FantasyGunControl/Literature and
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UrbanFantasy for different reasons.
Again, it really just depends on how you play it. There's no definite yes/no answer here.
>>7744665
Well depends. I think a setting like Shadowrun does Guns & Magic really well, but it's more cyberpunk than Fantasy.
If you want to write a fantasy novel you need to have some clear goals from the outset.
>World-building
What's the last 2000 years look like in my world, was it dominated by empires? republics? monarchies? Was there a golden age and it all collapsed? What are people eating and how are they dressing? How are their clothes made, how are they using animals or technology as a force multiplier? Is magic better than the steam engine or the domesticated horse, if so would those two things ever get invented or used? Do you have a magic system at all?
You can get really bogged down in here, so its easier to just map it out by centuries.
>Story arc
Generally a generic hero's journey, Iliad, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, myth and legend stuff.
>Characters
People that fit into their setting based on your world building, that are introduced organically as your hero steps through the world.
>Development
How you let the reader know about your world. A classic trope is your hero is young or out of time and he is discovering and learning about the history and practices of the world as he travels through it, serving two roles. To educate the reader on the setting, and to develop your main character through various tests and challenges.
>Modern Fantasy
Employs the classic tropes but has many major characters and tells the story from multiple angles at once, keeping it fresh and interesting, and allowing the shock of murdering main characters every now and again. Tieing up all loose ends in some 7th or 8th book of a long series.
...
Guns developed on Earth because for thousands of years metalwork became more refined and skilled and this lead to siege cannons which were later miniaturized into more portable long guns, which themselves replaced tens of thousands of years of bows. So you set out a long history where magic is co-interacting with the world, to justify people ever going from spear>bow>gun. But it's not really hard. Most fantasy is set in some early medieval period where one shot muskets and pistols are already becoming popular for self defence and war.
>>7744804
>Generally a generic hero's journey, Iliad, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, myth and legend stuff.
why
>>7744812
right?
>not having a main character who is roguish and defiant, while lovably lazy and aimless
>>7744813
My own is particularly desolate yet purposeful, a restless spirit slowly coming to his own.
>>7744832
so, gay?
>>7744833
Nah, by the end of the story he's pretty much the absolute madman. .
>>7744845
you should probably make him gay. it'll make it better.
>>7744846
he has a waifu tho
>>7744850
even better, secret gay.
>>7744851
Gay is boring tbrh
>>7744858
homophobe.
>>7744859
call the cops, closetcase
>>7744861
okay, cuck.
>>7744804
>World-building
The world is dominated by four Great powers. There was a golden age before it all collapse. Although all that will soon change during the setting.
>how are they using animals or technology as a force multiplier?
Animals are being used the same way, we use them. technology however not so much, beside a few experiments.
>Is magic better than the steam engine or the domesticated horse, if so would those two things ever get invented or used? Do you have a magic system at all?
Magic now, only has a slight edge, when it come to those two. Some have found it practical to use either the horse or train when reaching a destination.
>Magic system
Yes,
>Story arc
The protagonist is but a pawn to a bigger game. But he is a also a veteran and survivor in the second great war. A useful pawn, if you may.
>>7744864
>Magic now, only has a slight edge, when it come to those two
If Magic was better to start with, what's the motivation for people to develop technology beyond a certain point at all?
>Some have found it practical to use either the horse or train when reaching a destination.
Why?
>>7744864
>The world is dominated by four Great powers. There was a golden age before it all collapse.
Avatar the last airbender?
>>7744868
>>Some have found it practical to use either the horse or train when reaching a destination.
>Why?
Traders, Farmers, and blacksmiths, had to transport their merchandise. Not everyone has a chance to study and learn magic.
>If Magic was better to start with, what's the motivation for people to develop technology beyond a certain point at all?
Not everyone in the world can use magic. Which is why technology got as far as it did
>>7744868
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJ9WLV185Q
>>7744877
Nay, they use to be 8 great powers, but the war kind of destroy them
>>7744894
Those trades require learning, too. I think you need to put more thought into this to make it interesting or novel.
Imagine you have cavemen, some of whom can use magic. Why would the ones who can't bother to develop the wheel when they can ask their magical friends to teleport stuff around for them? The whole stratification of society would develop differently.
>>7744877
And now the Surviving four are at a cold war and arms race.
>>7744909
>Why would the ones who can't bother to develop the wheel when they can ask their magical friends to teleport stuff around for them? The whole stratification of society would develop differently.
A big spoiler.
Guns prevent a absolute Magocracy.
>>7745023
Isn't that good in settings?
>>7745095
No? It's contrived as fuck, especially when combined with the grimdark ultra-low magic settings that are popular now.
>>7745099
Before I go further aren't magocracy similar to theocracy?
>>7745269
I'd imagine so?
>>7745288
Oh thank you for clearing that up for me
>>7744802
starring Norway and Sweden as "The Dicks"
>>7744665
Well Dark Tower did it pretty well
>>7747313
Isn't Dark Tower fantasy with science fiction?
>>7744688
So because the physical capabilities to make advancements in firearms are out of reach it makes the premise weak? Thats fucking stupid
>>7747982
Then how would you explain it in a fantasy world
>>7747982
It's not a weak premise - it's a weak solution to a worldbuilding problem.
Magic is interesting because it redefines the boundaries of what is and isn't possible.
Reverting a modern reader's idea of 'the possible' by saying "this world hasn't invented it yet" is INHERENTLY less interesting as a narrative device.
Seinfeld is still amazing, but if you wrote the same episodes word for word today, it would be a far inferior show because cell phones could easily solve so many of their problems. "It was set before cell phones!" is not a good solution when your audience is well aware of what they are. But hey, you're free to write whatever you like.
>>7744665
You have to explain why shitty matchlocks are better than shooting lightning at the enemy (or whatever else your magic can do) if it's not better in some way there is no reason to develop guns in the first place and no reason to iterate and make better guns. Even if you go with the "weapon of the peasants" idea you have to explain why your using guns made and maintained by a gunsmith and not some magic items made and maintained by an equivalent Magic weapon specialist.
>>7748919
On the other hand medieval settings are literally built on the foundation that certain things don't exist yet.
![The-Green-Sky-trilogy[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/yOaAmvD.jpg "The-Green-Sky-trilogy[1].jpg")
this series did it very well
>>7748973
Touche - which explains why well-written and engaging medieval stories are far rarer in contemporary popular fiction
>>7748996
Can't argue with that.
>>7744665
Depends entirely on the writing. Powder Mage Trilogy wrote guns & magic pretty well.
Long story short, gun-mages are hated for what the cabals/church calls unnatural/demonic. All but 1 country has outlawed them. The story is set in the one country that hasn't, following primarily the (gun)power mages during a revolution.
Regular mages who hold the political power hate the Powder mages because being around gunpower makes them sick, and Powder Mages are capable of singling out and killing the regular mages from long distance in a battle field.
If you haven't already, then I'd recommend giving it a read if fantasy and guns is your thing.
The other one is the 2nd Mistborn series, but I'll hold my opinion of that until its finished.
>>7748919
>Seinfeld is still amazing, but if you wrote the same episodes word for word today, it would be a far inferior show because cell phones could easily solve so many of their problems. "It was set before cell phones!" is not a good solution when your audience is well aware of what they are. But hey, you're free to write whatever you like.
This week on Seinfeld: Kramer accidentally uploads a video of himself cooking to tumblr, becomes a viral sensation. George is driven mad when he keeps running into a man who has the same ringtone as him. Jerry confronts a YouTube comedian who's stealing his jokes, and Elaine meets the man of her dreams on Tinder: and he's Newman.
>>7749026
Well shit. I can picture every single one of those. I can even see George and Jerry sitting in the dinner while George is bitching about how he spent so much time finding a unique ring tone and someone else copied it.
>>7749016
>Banning powder mages cause of the church. Sounds like when the pope tried to ban crossbows. It didnt make a huge overall difference but contributed to a lot of executions.
>>7744706
>what are matchlocks, flintlocks, and percussion firearms.
Also paper cartridges don't work the way you think they do. They are just premeasured gunpowder and a bullet held in a neet little package made out of the wadding. You don't load them like a modern cartridge you rip them open, pour the gunpowder, pound the wadding in, and finally shove the bullet in. From there how you prime the ignition depends on the type of gun.
>>7749026
>George learns when you search his name, Google suggests "George Costanza Gay."
>Jerry gets paranoid about his girlfriend’s past when her iPhone automatically connects to the wi-fi at Newman’s apartment.
>Kramer gets a job as a 'social media expert.' "It's great, Jerry. You don't need to know anything!"
>Elaine accidentally does a British accent in a job interview after marathoning Downton Abbey. She gets the job and has to keep faking it.
>Kramer discovers WebMD
>>7749092
Thanks for showing off your knowledge on cartridge ammunition, but you're not actually answering anybody's question.
I'm actually a Civil War re-enactment geek, so I know for a fact that muskets can be reloaded and fired roughly three times per minute. I'm certain that career veterans could have been even faster back in the 17th century.
So you're not really saying anything at all, and what you have said is patently false at best.
>>7749107
guns were invented long before the civil war friend.
>>7749119
Thanks for the non-sequitur. This is /lit/, so I don't really care if you want to feel like an expert in a field you don't know that much about.
>>7749125
The twitter account 'Modern Seinfeld' has some real gems, too.
>George refuses to date a woman when he sees her on 2 different dating apps. G:”It’s too desperate.” J:”How’d you find out?” G:”I’m on both."
>>7749107
>civil war firearms
Literally the result of hundreds of years of iteration. If your firearm history starts at the Civil War you are the one missing historical context not the anon you responded to at the beginning.
>>7749157
>not the anon you responded to at the beginning
>>7749107
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KTS8PQ06Qo
>one, maybe two times a minute
If you watch the video it looks like a huge pain in the ass
they had revolvers and machine guns in the civil war
>>7749016
Sounds great. Any other similar series
>>7749026
i would pay to see a episode of this
