How do I understand the Iliad /lit/?
>>7731955
>Step one:
Read it.
Read Mythology by Edith Hamilton to get a basic background in Greek mythology.
Then read the Fagles translation.
>>7731970
I got the Ennis Rees translation, am I fucked?
start with the 2004 Petersen translation. It's definitive
>>7731977
I haven't read that translation, but probably not.
I recommended Fagles because I know it's easy to read and easily understood, not because it's the best (though it's pretty decent).
The themes in the Iliad aren't hard to understand, and you'll get most of the references to history and mythology if you've read Hamilton's book.
>>7732043
Great recommendations and posts.
Everyone loves Fitzgerald, but a first time reader, especially one asking "how do I understand the Iliad" will probably not be ready for a more poetic translation.
Read Fagles, read the intro (Penguin's is great, and that's the Fagles translation anyway), maybe read some other ancient history/poetry/drama, and reread the Iliad in a new translation after a few months.
da fuck is dere to understand, its just a war.
>>7732169
It's not just about the plot you Mongoloid
>>7731970
>>7732043
>>7732111
>Fagles translation
>not Richmond Lattimore's legendary translation
I've read both. Fagles is more modern, sure, and better than lots of the shitty prose translations out there. But Lattimore's just flows better and better reflects the Greek and Homer's writing style. Fagles seems to discard Homer's style in order to make the poem more accessible and easily understood. From what I know, every Classics department worth it's salt uses Lattimore.
Honestly, it depends on your intent in reading the Iliad. Do you just want to understand what is being said and get a close approximation of the text, an almost transliteration of the Iliad appropriated for modern readers? Go Fagles, it isn't bad at all. But Lattimore's is truly a definitive translation. It adheres to all the syllable counts and line lengths of the ancient Greek, and really captures the style of Homer in a way that Fagles does not.
Enjoy the epic. It's truly an excellent work that everyone should read. Best of luck.
>>7732188
what is there to the iliad besides what happens in it. if youre reading it in english, you have no sense of the poetics, so explain to me what im missing.
>>7732200
>no sense of poetics in English
That's a rather spooky assertion
The Illiad is basically about just some dudes being in love and dying in a senseless war. It's stayed relevant all this time because everyone is a little gay for Achilles.
daily reminder that only contrarian faggots and fedora tippers hate on pope's translation
Why did all of Greece under Agamemnon invade Troy for one girl? Why did the families of these men support them in doing so, even the women? Was this woman that beautiful? Yes, it is that in part. There is the saying of the woman who launched a thousand ships. But in going after this woman and the cowardly Paris who stole her, the men were going to reclaim society. It was not that the men were horny and all marveled the beauty of this woman. It was that these men upheld their values so much, that they wouldn’t even let this woman, who had beauty blessed by a “goddess” get away with doing something so heinous as breaking a wedding vow and running away with another man to another country.
And we see this again when Achilles refuses to fight. The Achaens had vows that a certain maiden, as a spoil of war would go to Achilles. But King Agamemnon broke this, and thus Achilles refused to bend to his will and retreated to his own tent. This is showing a people who held on to honor, respect, justice, even at the cost of defying the most beautiful woman in the world (and the mischievous deities that supported her) as well as kings. In both cases what was theirs was reclaimed.
>>7733850
The Iliad and Odyssey exalt the nobility of Honor.
The very first word of the Iliad is “RAGE.” The “RAGE” of Achilles when his honor is violated and his rightful prize and love is taken from him by his very own commander.
Right here we see Man versus State, as Achilles is the superior warrior, and as he takes all the risks, he ought get the reward. That is the Natural Law of Zeus, for after Achilles Natural Rights are violated and Achilles quits, Zeus sees to it that the Greeks begin to lose, as Zeus’s will was done.
Long before Atlas Shrugged in Rand’s cheap novel, Achilles quit the Greek army.
Homer shows that women who honor their commitments, like Penelope, lead to happy endings. Women who disregard their commitments, like Helen, lead to War.
Achilles quits for the sake of Honor, refuses to return when offered millions times more prizes, arguing that once honor is taken away, mere money/prizes cannot buy it back. He also reasons that all the wealth in the world is not worth him losing his life in an arena where his honor was taken away. When offered honors and awards, Achilles states, “I receive my honor from Zeus, not from corrupt Kings."
And too Achilles returns to fight for Honor, so as to avenge the death of his friend Patroculus, knowing full well he will die.
Simply put, Achilles is a man who lives and dies not for mere prizes, nor perks, nor tenure, nor titles, nor money, but for honor, and honor alone.
>>7733857
people just want muh accuracy
http://www.editoreric.com/greatlit/translations/Iliad.html
>>7733857
>pope
>translation
Nobody is saying it's not good in it's own right, but that thing is not a translation.
Call it a remake and talk about how great it is or whatever, but don't pretend it's in any way close or related to the original text.
is this a real question? This is the fucking simplest book ever, just actions and actions. This is not some thomas elliot shit, this is just the milestone of /lit/
>>7733946
>thomas elliot
>thomas
>elliot
W E W
E
W
>>7733871
Pretty sure he was just bummed Patty died and now he would have to train a new lover. All I see a sweet love story between some Greek homos with the backdrop being an actual historical war. Achilles is just raging, because a lot of gay dudes get emotional. He rages often and he rages hard throughout the song. Homer probably composed most of it travelling at sea, and probably got some ideas to incorporate some swooshing and swashing of the angry waves. It's easy to forget this was just a performance piece and a lot of the language was chosen for sound effect and allegory rather than any deeper meaning.
If you're reading Pope, it's more obvious that it's a song supposed to be performed and that Achilles is pretty camp and a bit of a dick. Lattimore and Fagles might be more accurate translations, but they lack the mirth and flow of Popes prose. I could read Pope to a 5 year old and make it exciting. Lattimore is like treacle tart and Fagles is also very slow to sift through.
The Illiad is really just puppet theatre designed to teach little boys about the virtues a man should aspire to. Hector is the real hero, and his death is the saddest and most necessary.
>>7733945
The epic poems were made to be retold and improvised. Pope's version is most true to that tradition. That's why it's regarded as one of the best. That's also why reading it in translation isn't an issue at all
>>7734354
>this is what monolingual pope plebs actually believe
The Iliad as Homer wrote it down is influential, not Pope's shitty remake or the version some Greek sheep farmer told at some point.
>>7734409
>he actually believes this
the ideology here is unreal
also
>he doesn't even speak ancient greek but is stil lmaking monolingual jokes on a cambodian cave mural site
>>7734413
>>he doesn't even speak ancient greek
Nice projecting, buddy.
I went to a good high school, maybe you should have considered doing that too.
>>7734431
>implying he knows ancient greek
prove it faggot
>>7734432
I don't have anything to prove to you, you little faggot.
But go on, keep reading Pope like the massive pleb you are, lest your tiny head starts hurting from trying to use it too much.
Genre fiction and translations sure are awesome, huh?
>>7733866
Did you write this? You articulate your point very well. We can see here in the Mycenaean age the roots, the commencement of this internalization (in the lack of a better word) of the universal good in the individuals that allowed Athenian democracy to flourish.
>>7734440
>Pope
>pleb
Oh you
>>7734487
For someone on a lit board you sure lack reading comprehension
>>7731955
Start here, friend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea_57mfHp9w
>>7734471
>the commencement of this internalization (in the lack of a better word) of the universal good
Lol, fighting over pussay handwaved with divine blessing is such a lofty ideal huh?
>>7734508
It was the 'commencement' of this civilization, a child is the commencement of the person, but you can't expect the child to vote or to articulate its ideas yet.
>>7734518
And in your case a child like yourself can't construct a good argument.
Try harder.
>>7734508
It has nothing to do with Pussy, it's about standing up for your values at all costs.
>>7734578
Values like sending thousands of men to their death for a single woman?
>>7734621
How come you feel the constant need to pretend you are retarded?
Might it be because you really are very stupid and you are trying your best to trick yourself into believing you are actually really smart and witty and merely pretending to be a complete moron all the time?
>>7734621
Don't forget that you are weighed down by 3000+ years of ideology. The ancient Greeks think differently than you.
>>7734636
I dunno, you seem really good at that.
>>7734644
The ancient Greeks are today modern Greeks. They didn't achieve much in 3,000 years despite the head start.
>>7733871
honor my ass. Achilles was a petulant child who was throwing a temper tantrum because daddy took away his toy.
>>7734722
What right did menelaus have to take briseis from Achilles? He wasn't the king of Greece/Achilles, he was just the warlord leading the expedition. He let the power get to his head.
Achilles didn't have any responsibility to fight in that war and it was in his right to quit fighting after he was dishonored.
>>7734759
Agamemnon stole her. Had Menelaus did that, I think the entire army would have deserted out of sheer hypocrisy.
>>7734772
Yeah that was a mistake I meant Agamemnon.
The point still stands though.
>>7734759
What right does a parent have to take a toy? who the fuck cares it's still a selfish temper tantrum.
>>7734782
but yous posts says Agamemnon
>>7734792
He's not Achilles parent and he has no authority over Achilles like a parent would over their child.
>>7734792
What puts Agamemnon in the parent position and Achilles in the child position? They are equals. In fact Achilles is the better warrior.
And like I said Achilles had no responsibility being in that war. He went for honor and because he was asked by the cuckold menelaus and his brother.
>>7734792
tl;dr This thread: the Greeks were irrational, over emotional idiots
>>7734759
Because Achilles knew that they needed him he knew that they would call on him to drive the Trojans from the Greek ships, Menelaus would always come to him, if youll pardon the pun, it was menelaus' Achilles heel
>>7733866
its cuz she wuz the only white gurl in greece and all the greeks were black
dey fight over da white gurl
#wewuzgods
>>7731970
This is bad advice. You don't need any background in Greek myth to understand the Iliad. In fact, according to Herodotus the only myth a man needed to know to be civilized was Hesiod and Homer.
Read the Iliad and Odyssey in their entirety briefly, then move on to other myths. Since Homer is the oldest Greek there is, there's no need to go around familiarizing yourself with "the rest" of Greek myth.
>>7734799
>What puts Agamemnon in the parent position and Achilles in the child position?
Because Agamemnon is the king of kings and Achilles is his prize fighter.
>>7733978
>Hector is the real hero
This triggers me so badly.
Hector's killing of Pat. and gloating showed he had no honor.
>>7736995
Fuck man, if your job is to kill people, killing someone real good is what you gloat about.
>>7736995
Funny thing is it was Apollo and another guy that did most of the work. Hector just finished the job. I don't remember hector gloating though?
>>7732191
oxford grad here, ours was fitzgerald, though fagles and lattimore were both fine too, saying lattimore is definitive is a stretch
>>7736709
No he isn't. He is the leading warlord for this campaign, not Achilles king. Each region is autonomous and has their own king, with no king uniting them all.
>>7736995
I don't know why it triggers you, because Hector is literally the hero, without flaw, among all the other flawed heroes.
His only flaw was loving his brother too much. Maybe you should read your history a little bit more carefully anon, you will appreciate the Greeks for who they were, and not who you want them to be.
Achilles sin of being proud was their moral equivalent of a baby rapist today.
Because proud men also tended to be vain and corrupt, and this lead to tyrannical leaders which many Greek philosophers desperately wanted to avoid. So these are the men you DO NOT worship or respect. The Romans understood this very well when they appropriate Greek culture, to the point the brutal murder of JC was seen as a heroic and patriotic duty, pity that the flood gates were already opened and the Republic bled out with him.
Achilles is the historical version of a beautiful whore. You can never really love her, but there's that part of you that can't help it, and you hate her and yourself for it.
Hector is the hero. Be mindful of this when you read any of the classic tragedies that follow, the hero is often not the one who is talked about most.
All of Greek logic and intuition stems from this learn by counter-example ethos, that's why the advanced human knowledge so far. It's only when you look at what isn't that you find what is. The whole point of the Socratic method is that in adopting your opponents position and his yours, in debate together you vigorously and earnestly defend each other's view, finding a flaw in the stated argument or your reasoning of it.
So Achilles is who you should despise, because he is beautiful and brave and strong, and still it's not enough for him. He wants more than any man should have, and thus rightly is punished for it and serves as a warning to us all.
>be Achilles
>Agamemnon treats me like a child
>mom tells me I will die in the war
>take some time off to think about it
>tfw everyone calls me selfish
>mfw no gf
>>7738051
Hector is the most noble champion, but the story is very definitively grounded on Achilles. The story is a meditation on military duty, using a great mythical hero as a means to explore the shortcomings and tragedy of which.
>>7738051
That's a very Roman view of the Greeks. The Greeks loved Odysseus, but the Romans hated him. They had different values.
Achilles was the Greek hero in the Iliad, but hector was also seen as honorable and the best of the Trojans.
Socrates invoked Achilles while facing death at his own trial. Socrates was offered perks and prizes and life if he would only recant his teachings that “Virtue does not come from money, but money and every lasting good of man derives form virtue.”
But then Socrates asked, “Would Achilles back down from battle if bribed by physical wealth?” Socrates reasoned he would be dishonoring the Great Achilles if he ever recanted his teachings.
>>7738210
That's a very modern reading of the Iliad. The Greeks valued war way past homer.
>>7738418
>The Greeks loved Odysseus, but the Romans hated him.
Dumb generalization. Odysseus does some fucked up things, like executing the Trojan hostage in the Iliad and massacring the suitors at the end of the Odyssey. His name actually means something like "hated."
