Isn't it possible that some of the time travelling characters have actually read the book?
>>7701721
dude
The hierodules seem to have done fine without necessarily having read Severian's account.
>>7701776
I was thinking about the Green Man. It would explain why he says he knows everything when he meets severian in the second book
>yfw the copy of the book of the New Sun severian throws in space during Urth of the New Sun falls through a wormhole to our world and gets translated by Gene Wolfe.
>>7701949
>>7701776
Stop posting, any time.
>>7701949
>all of that actually happened
>Wolfe didn't write any of it, he just found it one day and started translating it
>never told anyone because nobody asked
Post an excerpt of Wolfe's writing to convince me that he's worth reading.
>>7702257
>im a lazy, self-important prick who cant be bothered to look up samples of a renowned author
>>7702265
>Captain Obvious refuses to post an excerpt
>>7702288
Thats right, do it yourself.
You're that same type of idiot who makes "What should I expect?" threads.
>>7702291
fuck off, bitch
gene wolfe is shit anyway
>>7702257
What is bait for $200
>>7701876
Which is one of the points I've been wondering about for years. I really have no clue what to make of him.
>>7702257
If you're too stupid to use google, you won't understand Book of the New Sun
>>7702299
Maybe he's bound by causality because, having read the book, he knows ahead of time what he will do?
>>7702302
From what I've heard, it's genre fiction. I'm sure I could manage.
>>7702308
>babby still thinks in terms of genre/literary
>>7702257
«The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in a desolate landscape. It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a strange, stiff banner. The visor of this figure's helmet was entirely of gold, without eye slits or ventilation; in its polished surface the deathly desert could be seen in reflection, and nothing more.»
>>7702307
This theory becomes more complicated when you consider that Severian is an unreliable narrator
>>7702357
This part doesn't make sense out of context. It has to be taken as a part of that chapter for the full effect; even then some might miss the significance initially
>>7702307
Well it's moot because Sev is an unreliable narrator, in addition to the Green Man calling himself a great liar. The Green Man also implies that he does not know of Sev, because he claims that when he returns to his own time, he'll tell his people of the person who freed him. Maybe it was all planned, maybe it was chance.
>>7702357
trash writing
>>7701721
It is possible I already had some presentiment of my future. The locked and rusted gate that stood before us, with wisps of river fog threading its spikes like the mountain paths, remains in my mind now as the symbol of my exile. That is why I have begun this account of it with the aftermath of our swim, in which I, the torturer's apprentice Severian, had so nearly drowned.
"The guard has gone." Thus my friend Roche spoke to Drotte, who had already seen it for himself.
Doubtfully, the boy Eata suggested that we go around. A lift of his thin, freckled arm indicated the thousands of paces of wall stretching across the slum and sweeping up the hill until at last they met the high curtain wall of the Citadel. It was a walk I would take, much later.
"And try to get through the barbican without a safe-conduct? They'd send to Master Gurloes."
"But why would the guard leave?"
"It doesn't matter." Drotte rattled the gate. "Eata, see if you can slip between the bars."
Drotte was our captain, and Eata put an arm and a leg through the iron palings, but it was immediately clear that there was no hope of his getting his body to follow.
"Someone's coming," Roche whispered. Drotte jerked Eata out. I looked down the street. Lanterns swung there among the fog-muffled sounds of feet and voices. I would have hidden, but Roche held me, saying, "Wait, I see pikes."
"Do you think it's the guard returning?"
He shook his head. "Too many."
"A dozen men at least," Drotte said.
Still wet from Gyoll we waited. In the recesses of my mind we stand shivering there even now. Just as all that appears imperishable tends toward its own destruction, those moments that at the time seem the most fleeting recreate themselves - not only in my memory (which in the final accounting loses nothing) but in the throbbing of my heart and the prickling of my hair, making themselves new just as our Commonwealth reconstitutes itself each morning in the shrill tones of its own clarions.
>>7702711
The start isn't exactly the staple of new Sun's writing, I don't know why people keep quoting it and not something else.
>>7703248
Because the people most willing to respond to the trolls who bait Wolfe prose tend to have the least critical analysis. I agree that the opening is an unrepresentative showing; it's necessarily less baroque to ease introduction. Alternatively, I like the 'we invent symbols' quote, but it is perhaps too pseudo-philosophically pretentious for most people. The quote where he explains the levels of understanding of The Brown Book to Dorcas has a better linkage to biblically influenced literature and understanding.
>>7702257
“We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. When soldiers take their oath they are given a coin, an asimi stamped with the profile of the Autarch. Their acceptance of that coin is their acceptance of the special duties and burdens of military life—they are soldiers from that moment, though they may know nothing of the management of arms. I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. The would-be sorcerer alone has faith in the efficacy of pure knowledge; rational people know that things act of themselves or not at all.”
"He who had given all books into my keeping made me blind so that I should know in whose keeping the keepers stand."
There is nothing particularly special about this line but I am intrigued by it all the same.
>>7703295
That sneaky Aquinas quote on causality in a Wolfe quote
>>7702653
>muh contrarianism
>>7703349
Pretty reminiscent on Aquinas on government.
>>7703349
The blind librarian is a really interesting character
The cover in the OP picture makes me think: how does everyone picture the Guild's masks?
I've always liked to think of them as looking like gas masks. I think it's a neat aesthetic.
>>7704689
I like it on this cover. It's a great cover art all around.
>>7704689
I imagined them to be very uncool. Basically just a black leather round mask with a circle for the eyes and mouth cut out.
>>7704689
This is a radically different depiction. Obviously inaccurate in that the character here has a shirt on, and other details which don't fit the portrayal. I like the mask, though.
>>7704736
WHY DOES EVERY PORTRAYAL OF SEVERIAN HAVE A FUCKING SHIRT REEEEEEEEEEE
>>7704736
It isn't inaccurate. Sev got a different costume when he was sent on an assassination mission (at the court dance). The silver blonde hair however, is jarring.
>>7704689
The description mentioned that the mask details the eye sockets and mouth with real human bone. I don't have the book in front of me so I can't find the exact quote(s).
This >>7704719 doesn't do a bad job of trying to depict the mask, but something is off in it.
I like the mask in pic related, but it the accents and facial features should be white/yellow and made of bone.
>>7705118
I don't know why so many Wolfe readers are incompetent scholars. Then again, maybe if you put any effort into anything, you wouldn't be a spineless bitch.
Sev's mask is not decorated with bone; the bone is the structure which strips of leather were grafted on. I like the Darth Vader vibe more, because the torturers are supposed to escape notice. Having high contrast masks would nullify that. Higher ranked guild members wore velvet masks.
>>7705149
Probably because they are not scholars
>>7705149
Do you feel better about yourself now? Did your mother not hold you enough as a child?
>>7705213
I feel great, but it is evident that you don't.
>>7705149
inorite, it's like that guy who said gene wolfe added filler stories in botns
>>7704736
I love the Amano version cause I am a huge fag like that.
>>7701721
"What struck me on the beach–and it struck me indeed, so that I staggered as at a blow–was that if the Eternal Principle had rested in that curved thorn I had carried about my neck across so many leagues, and if it now rested in the new thorn (perhaps the same thorn) I had only now put there, then it might rest in everything, in every thorn in every bush, in every drop of water in the sea. The thorn was a sacred Claw because all thorns were sacred Claws; the sand in my boots was sacred sand because it came from a beach of sacred sand. The cenobites treasured up the relics of the sannyasins because the sannyasins had approached the Pancreator. But everything had approached and even touched the Pancreator, because everything had dropped from his hand. Everything was a relic. All the world was a relic. I drew off my boots, that had traveled with me so far, and threw them into the waves that I might not walk shod on holy ground."
>>7702357
>yfw the 'painting's of an astronaut
>>7706290
you and me bro, you and me.
>>7701721
is this worth 34 bucks
>>7706516
No. It was a poorly managed edition, as evidenced by its puerile and unimaginative 90s young adult-quality cover. Better to buy the "Shadow & Claw" and "Sword & Citadel" edition.
>>7706580
Yeah any of the other covers are cooler. And Severian ought to be attractive, let's not forget he is quite the stud in these novels. I never knew it was possible to get this much booty being a Christ analogue till I read BotNS
>>7706496
Nice.
>>7706589
If there were a cover like this, I'd buy it.
>>7706580
Speaking of awful covers. Check out Severian's(?) sick mullet.
>>7707087
Brain problems
>>7702222
Crafty
>>7704748
>red claw
>>7707169
It should be blue, right?
>>7707178
Pretty sure it was blue
>>7707169
That's fuckin neato.
>>7707147
He says in the back of the first book that he translated it.
>>7707196
Fair enough
>>7707169
>>7707178
Best I could do quickly.
>>7707230
If you could make the gem glow blisteringly bright it'd be perf
>>7707230
I like it
>>7707347
I'm not versed in graphic theory, but I was pleased by this manipulation.
>>7707419
noice
Does anyone know if there are reader's digest versions of the Moonmilk archives? It's a lot to go through, and the antiquated text wrapping makes it even harder to read.
>>7702357
It took me a minute, but when I remembered it is set in an apocalyptic future, It's obviously the Apollo space mission photo of Niel Armstrong.
>>7707419
You missed a spot friend, please correct.
>>7707709
Okay, but can anyone identify the women holding a dagger, sitting under a death mask?
Or the dancer with leeches for wings?
Been on my mind for years.
>>7707763
I actually missed at least a dozen, but I have these horrible meat claws for hands, and can only alter the hue and brightness by pressing a switch. I'm no artist, but I hope someone else can fix things.
>>7707674
I've had this exact same problem and I don't think so. Too bad, as that site is the source of some truly legit Wolfeian erudition.
>>7707095
>>7708382
If you think that's odd... check out Russia's edition of Claw of the Conciliator where Severian is replaced by a bored, Slavic Bilbo Baggins.
>>7708444
>Akhh Ryno
I'm gonna call my Half-Orc Barbarian this.
Tell me about Severian. Why does he wear the mask?
>>7708515
Because it's part of his Guild's official attire, he only has to wear it when performing his duties as an executioner though.
>>7708515
He can take it off and won't die form it, but will drown and get killed by flowers.
>>7708515
He's a big star.
>>7709579
To kill all of you
>>7709816
The sailing plain I just filed with the hierogrammates lists you, the women, and Eata here, but no Apu-Punchau.
Would you call BotNS modern, postmodern, or neither
>>7709862
It's literally postmodern in that Urth's technology is beyond the industrial age.
>>7709862
It's very much aware of its being a text, so ı'd say post.
>>7709892
It has a distorted narrative, but it still has one which is exquisitely detailed and makes sense.
It retains values of having a message as well as being Catholic.
It has a lot of symbolism of Christ and the sacraments.
Idk I would say it has elements of postmodernism, but I wouldn't call it a postmodernist work in itself
>>7709888
It has more semblance with postmodernism because it goes very far in metafictional techniques.
>>7709907
Can a Catholic novel really be postmodern?
I for one associated it always with new values of the modern world as much as I did with certain literary techniques.
Kinda like baroque and Catholicism.
>>7709904
>>7709913
I'm not sure ı'd call it a Catholic novel in the usual way though, because it's trying to impart its values (or rather practices) through narrative devices, making the reader know what faith is like mentally, rather than telling of the Truth; so it's closer to Pynchon than Tolkien.
Is Solar Labyrinth good
>>7710167
It's an incomplete compendium of BotNS theories. I'd say he solves or provides his own theory for maybe 40% of BotNS's main mysteries, but either he or another smarty critic ought to complete the job.
Was the green man actually Severian from the future, returned as a sannyasin?
>>7707074
Rare Wolfe.
Saved
>>7709953
But Wolfe is waaaay more direct than Tolkien and filled everything with symbols, allusions, allegories. I can't see the comparison to Pynchon at all.
>>7711424
That's because Tolkien was not intending to write about -his- religion, but what he considered to be correct, which is why could he extrapolat it to a different world; Wolfe however isn't trying to tell the essence of his morals, but rather to induce the reader to -think- the way a religious man thinks, which is why he has the reader constantly looking out for the truth of the deal and how it relates to them--that our world is the past to his characters isn't a coincidence, but something that's there to make you question your relationship to the past of own world. The comparison to Pynchon was on the basis that he does the same with paranoia, making the reader paranoid through his fiction, and further so by the inclusion of real world elements.
>>7711499
That is NOT how I pictured Alzabos
>>7711499
I agree.
On the other hand that's a fucking spooky animal.
>>7704689
The guilds are medieval guilds. Severian is a medieval executioner with a medieval executioner's sword.
>>7706589
*cough* unreliable narrator *cough, cough*
>>7712143
He called himself plain looking, but considering all the times girls practically threw themselves at him (surprising given his occupation) he must be at least moderately handsome
>>7712328
His occupation and the specific situations coupled with how he saw it lent to him getting more pussy than I ever will have.
Modernist for sure, no real epistemic uncertainty, universal values triumphing over subjective viewpoints which are more or less ironically subjective. Solar labyrinth sucks, borski cant do logic or textual analysis in a fashion rigorous enough to get Wolfe, and wolfe makes fun of him in a recent podcast. Ahhhhhh yeah Wolfe is the best.
>>7712518
Link to podcasts por favor?
>>7712518
Borski is definitely flawed as a speculator, but his output is the keystone to Wolfe criticism. So far nobody has seemed to one up him in that aspect.
>>7712603
Marc Aramini recently published his take on Wolfe, 900 pages in the first part of Between Light and Shadow.
>>7712627
Oh yes, I know of him... He definitely hurt readers' immediate perception of him by being a t shirted, gel haired douche bag.
>>7712627
Are you Marc Aramini?
>>7712637
>Thinks the value of criticism is directly linked to a persons personal appearance
Would it have been better if he was a fedora wearing faggot sipping chai lattes while wrapping a rainbow scarf around his neck?
Get over yourself faggot.
>>7712518
Still waiting for podcasts link
>>7712705
It's too underground to have a pirate version.
Also I'd feel bad for pirating it from him.
>>7712710
He worked in corporate and seems financially secure, if there's anything to feel bad about, it's not spreading his internet presence.
>>7712732
I mean I don't have it, but I thought he was a teacher.
>>7709862
BotNS is modernist.
>>7712328
>surprising given his occupation
>mysterious
>physically imposing
>disciplined, always outwardly calm and in control
>respected/feared by everyone
>not bound by the rest of society
>mask hides looks/expressions
>despite this isn't a meathead and talks about his feelings
>bad boy, wears black
Sevs is a pussy magnet.
>>7713620
Also that sweet exultant blood makes women's legs open themselves up
http://swordandlaser.com/home/2013/6/20/sl-podcast-134-interview-with-gene-wolfe#commenting
Found the Wolfe podcast.
http://jonathanstrahan.podbean.com/e/episode-261-gene-wolfe-john-clute-and-a-borrowed-man/
Another one, loved the last one.
>>7713620
aka an obvious self-insert?
>>7713871
Seems like that when made banal. It plays around the sword and sorcery hero a lot. He's broken, sinful, lustful, full of shame, not too intelligent and so on.
>>7713881
He is intelligent. By the time he is exiled he had already read some 5000 books. Problem is he was secluded for so long there were inevitably aspects of society he'd need to get accustomed to.
>>7713910
5000? Wut?
>>7712732
He works at a gym. Planet Fitness or something. He had to quit or he was let go from his teaching job because of some ambiguous occurrence between him and a female student.
Yo LIT, I just finished Claw and I'll be starting on Sword of the Lictor very soon. I like this series so far but... why is this so popular? Is it really that mindblowing? It's enjoyable enough but literally everytime I look for more in-depth discussion or analysis on the subject it's just people saying "SO COMPLEX LMAO JUST REREAD IT BRO." Thoughts???
>>7714616
Everyone has their own theories, GW himself dosent really give much stock to any which one (but he has addressed some misinterpretations). So you just have to read it yourself and get your own feel of it.
Me personally, I just liked the experience of the book (re-reading only enhances it), I dont care about the theories.
>>7714616
Wolfe's novels would be hard pressed to be called mind blowing in the usual sense, considering Wolfe's storytelling methods. What I mean is, while the prose ornamented with baroque words, in the broad scale, it happens to be fairly subdued and even-tempered. A musical equivalent might be ambience. And Wolfe's prose rarely engages in descriptive majesty, like Tolkien does when he describes nature or colossal monuments, so one needs to look for different cues to figure out if something important is being communicated.
BotNS can be read at an entry level, but is considered advanced at the allusive level, as it interstitially weaves the western canon and sf megatext into the story. Wolfe riffs on sf themes. A lot. The reader isn't even meant to know if spaceships or laser guns are being described until later. He also parodies Lovecraftian tropes a lot. These are things only someone deeply read in genre literature would catch, so it's not much of a wonder that Wolfe is praised so widely by critics, but almost unknown to a wider audience.
>>7714657
Oh, I will give that it has a solid cult on introvert boards like 4chan. The overall theme of BotNS is dark and decaying, which naturally appeals to readers here.
>>7714657
Thank you for your response. My first Wolfe book was his recent "The Land Across" and the whole time, I honestly felt like I was missing something. Pleb confirmed, I suppose.
Does anyone remember the name of the disembodied voice in the wind? I think it was an arab mythological spirit?
>>7715023
It sounds like you're talking about the alzabo but your description doesn't match it. I don't really recall a disembodied voice in the wind, when did it occur?
>>7715025
I think it was in Urth where Sev returns to the land. The voice, I think whispered during the night near some spooked villagers. It's separate from the Alzabo, but it and the Alzabo were both mythologically grounded on the hyena.
It was an arabic word, which started with probably an H or M.
>>7714709
His recent novels are either mediocre or too subtle, I'm not sure which.
>>7714322
How do you know that?
>>7715287
He stalks him and watches him work dat bootay
Podcasts with Wolfe are so fun.
I'll have to finish Peace and Short Sun this year.
>I once knew a woman who had met Father Inire. She told me a tale about him. Would you like to hear it?"
>"Suit yourself."
>Actually it was I who wanted to hear the story, and I did suit myself: I told it to myself in the recesses of my mind, hearing it there hardly less than I had heard it first when Thecla's hands, white and cold as lilies taken from a grave filled with rain, lay clasped between my own.
Sev, you fucking autist
>>7717044
She wanted to get benised :DDDDDD
Okay, I'm going to buy the books because fuck it I'm intrigued. Book of the New Sun is split into 4 novels, bundled as pairs into books. Do I want to read all 4 in quick succession and thus need to buy both books?
It's weird that I can't find a complete edition or whatever you'd want to call it.
>>7717922
Buy Shadow and Claw and Sword and Citadel.
It's one story split originally into 4 parts for publishing reasons.
>>7717922
Don't forget to read Urth of the New Sun.
>>7718192
Wolfe actually hated writing that one.
>>7718301
But I like reading it, so what does that make of me?
>>7718326
you like meme wolfe, what do you think
>>7718301
Probly 'cause he wrote it to tie the plot, which is just why it's a necessary read.
>>7718509
On its own it'd be a 6/10 (wastes time for answers the reader wouldn't know the questions to), despite the quality.
>>7718529
Yeah, but it's a coda, it's not meant to be read on its own.
>>7718603
But I first read it from a thrift store purchase before I even knew what a Wolfe was. Looking back, amazingly, its narrative stood on its own.
Marc Aramimi confirmed for a shitposter honestly didn't see it coming
>>7719903
a true narcissist is drawn to the sound of his own name, and does not necessarily participate, neither starting threads nor engaging from his lofty excellence. Rest assured such a one would never be associated with shit-posting.
>>7719903
You would see sophisticated discourse if I were active here. I have no need to be anonymous, unless I want to throw out suggestions to nominate my own work for awards. That *is* a bit my style.
>>7720782
I will buy your book when my Jewish overlords let me have more than for bare necessities
>>7721120
Thanks ! I didn't ultimately undertake such a project for money, but I do appreciate everyone who buys it. I was hoping quality analysis would bring Wolfe to a wider audience ... instead, silence from reviewers and a few grumbles of personal recognition from places like 4chan. It is unfortunate that my videos are more visible than the research and writing, but every little bit helps, as the sailor said as he pissed into the sea.
>>7701876
>the Green Man
Is making ex post rationalizations before he slip Severian some mickeys and ravagaes his boipussy.
>>7721133
I don't believe Wolfe is going to have a problem of surviving with the time and I'm sure with it your work will become more widely read, assuming Catholics pick it up and Catholic literature always has a publicity.
I've been thinking of translating his short stories, but having no formal English education it may be too hard.
>>7721133
Hey Aramini, are the Moonmilk archives particularly worthwhile to read these days? I haven't been to the site since the archive was buggy. Also, in your opinion, what were Moonmilk's best years for theorizing?
>>7714709
The Land Across was a noir occult mystery, which is pretty unlike his other work. Definitely try the BotNS
>>7721133
Since people are shallow, get some background bitches in your vids next time and you will definitely draw in some new readers.
>>7721184
He actually wrote a short story along these lines.
>>7721184
Reception of Land Across was more positive than his other newer work. How did you like it?
Sorcerers House and A Borrowed Man were both either mediocre or way to subtle for me.
>>7721173
The urth archives are unfortunately very fragmented now, with the better part of at least two years not archived. There was some great work done there in the late 90s and early 2000s, but it became very hostile to too much interpretation in about 2003 or so, prompting me to stop posting for YEARS. I don't think Borski is logical; i don't think Wright is enough of a dualist in his approach, and Andre-druissi has done great work but remains an extremely conservative critic who shys away from making controversial claims. I am very happy with the interaction on the Urth list in the last few years, but some of it has been dominated by either my posts on the short stories or reactions to them. Free reign on speculation from its start to 2000, calcification circa 2002-2005, perhaps, then an opening up to possibilities in 2011 to now.
>>7721213
I think it is an increasing refusal to narrate key events that take away from the surface narrative. I liked all three of those, but Sorcerers house the most. Land across had one huge problem - so much broken English and too much discourse in that way, but I liked the plot, the subtle implications of the conclusion, when grafton regurgitates the philosophy of his supposed enemies ...
>>7721428
Thank you. I attempted exegesis of it before but I fell flat on my ass after parsing the 2nd year. This will sharpen my grasp on things.
>>7721428
Hey Marc its Charles!
>>7721549
;) the only reason i even knew 4 chan had ever heard of me ...
>>7721565
reply to my email or GTFO!
>>7721581
You know you have made it when you have people disguising themselves as you. Alas, I haven't made it yet, as far as I know.
>someday they'll want us.
that was the moment that cemented in my head the idea that Wolfe is the single greatest SF author alive.
>>7721855
I preferred The eternal principle scene as well as Satan in New Sun.
>>7721754
I would not mind if you tripfagged. Unless you're not Aramini!
>>7719755
>I read the first 1/3 of In Green Jungles before Blue Waters by accident. It for the most part made sense, for a Wolfe novel at least.
I did the exact same thing!!
>>7722120
Reminds me of the time I watched the rebuild movies before end of evangelion
>>7722127
As if it even matters
None of Eva makes any sense whatsoever, you could watch the episodes/movies/rebuilds in random order and it'd be the same.
>>7722055
It is Marc. I'm Charles, another urth poster. And you plebs annoyed him away!
>>7722136
Bullshit. All you need to "get" Eva is watch the show and then EoE,
EoE pretty much spoonfeeds you shit the show already covered. The Rebuilds are some weird meta-commentary and not really a reboot.
>>7722142
The rebuilds can be watched on their own, but to revisit TOS, EOE, and rewatch the rebuild movies would just add to the mindfuckery.
>>7722153
I disagree that the Rebuilds stand on their own, without the overall context of NGE/EoE they're basically sporadic bits of character exposition with awkward pacing. Then 3.0 completely flips the table.
Without NGE/EOE the real meat of the Rebuilds will be missing because you don't know where half of it is coming from or what its pointing to.
>>7722166
We won't know until the 4th movie anyway. And I doubt it will make any more fucking sense then- if anything it will be even more of an incoherent mess than 3
>>7722166
I politely decline your position.
If you were talking about NGE:Death (70 min), I'd agree with you, but the first two Rebuild movies were 220 min combined, which is only half the total length of the TV series, and which is plenty of time to establish character building, indeed within general movie length. If anything, the movies might be too long. Relatively, the Game of Thrones TV show covers more material in less time, and the pacing of that show was overwhelmingly successful in drawing an audience.
I agree that NGE's original TV serious has the meat of Eva's substance, but the Rebuilds are like a streamlined clone of it. Completely stands on its own.
>>7722120
I think it largely speaks about how well structured his novels in general are so you just get used to it haha.
>>7722190
If you mean "standing on its own" as it being a suitable replacement for the original NGE/EOE story then hell no, its nowhere near that.
Someone can watch it and bullshit around but its basically a set of trippy/cool action movies. Almost all the character development is sped-up, some reveals are particularly jarring and awkward, and a good chunk of the atmosphere is watered down.
Luckily, the Rebuilds arent really trying to replicate the original NGE, or it'd have failed completely. Its almost a good thing 3.0 went completely fucknuts to drive the message home.
Guys this isn't /a/
>>7722261
It is now fuckboi
>>7722261
Gene Wolfe thread, same audience.
>>7722325
That can probably be said for just about every author here.
>>7721428
Maybe someone should compose the mails into a discussion novel of a sort.
Either way going through it sounds like a massive drag with decades of mails to read through. Unless you've actually done that of a sort with your book, not having read it I don't know.
>>7721198
You are implying his magnificent physique isn't enough.
Talking about anime...
>Blond megalomaniac narcissist
>Sewed his head into a more suitable body (which offered resistance)
>Wakes up a long while after being thought dead
>MC has a history with him
>MC has time powers he's unaware of for most of the story
>MC kills him with a well placed punch, avenging someone he'd gotten close to in his journey
>>7722474
Book of the New Sun confirmed as a JoJo spinoff
>>7722383
How can you possibly rationalize that?
>>7722485
Most people here watched anime.
People here like authors they liked here.
Therefore most authors share audience as anime.
That's of course not true, but it's your implication, not mine. Most Wolfe fans outside here are 30,40,50,60 years old, at least are in other groups that discuss him, like in Facebook groups or mailing lists.
>>7722485
Give me literally any author and I will
>>7722433
I tried to use relevant details from the list, but always trusted my own judgment. If it was shit, it wasnt going to be brought up. If it needed to be debunked, I debunked it. The short stories and novellas I more or less fully synthesized the list input and provided my own conclusions, but the majority of the archive is about new, long, and short sun, so I trust my own judgment there, and see no need to go through all of that for minimal enlightenment. There are two extremes on the list, crazy theorists and unoriginal surface narrative gate keepers. I suppose once upon a time I was in the crazy theorist camp, but I NEED textual, symbolic, or thematic support for all the claims i make. The problem with Wolfe is that it is conceivable the vast majority of readers will never actually understand even the surface narrative. Wright's otherwise excellent article on Colonialism in fifth head is based on an incomplete understanding of who is actually replaced, invalidating his ENTIRE examination, making trendy critical stances useless for approaching Wolfe.
>>7722539
Am I the only one who noticed Aquinas being basically quoted in The New Sun?
And on the other hand I have a strange feeling discussion on Wolfe is almost always about the settings and mystery and not about the underlying message he's trying to tell. His religious experience is truly profound and Severian makes for a great conversion story and I believe that is everything Wolfe was trying to say, the soul of the novel.
While the intricacies of his novels are great, they serve a thematical role primarily. Urth had to die to enhance the image of Christ painted by the novel tenfold and I believe it generally most of the ideas are in some way connected to the allegory.
Also the influence of Chesterton in the department of myth as containing truth as it's core. So that in context of say Genesis or Apocalypse (expanding that further would probably be too unorthodox and Gene seems like a mostly orthodox guy).
>>7722433
It isn't. Readers are faggots, but they aren't homosexuals.
>>7722575
In general I agree - a theme approach to Wolfe is fruitful ... but sometimes the themes are difficult to apprehend. His orthodoxy does not preclude the reality of pagan gods as something other than divinity but distinct from humanity, not a very common view. In new sun, the general view of an increasingly merciful man becoming worthy is complicated by a few things ... i dont view Severian as negatively or harshly as many, for it is clear he tries to de-emphasize how often he is sick after executing people, etc, but there is enough to make one doubt the sincerity of the surface theme.
Fuck. I need to read this shit again.
Btw, how is Book of the Long Sun?
>>7723308
Also Urth, for that matter
>>7723308
1200 pages. Too long imo
>>7724151
He said long sun. The pre/sequel series.
>>7722575
[i'm drunk forgive me if this isn't written too guud] What Severian is the Conciliator of is purposely left ambiguous. What was Urth's sin that left it deserving of withering away? The symbolism of the conciliation represents quite a few things. First off the conciliation of religion and science, more specifically creationism and evolution. Examples of this conflict are through out the novel, be it Severian's speculations on how the Alzabo evolved, or the story of the cock fighting the angel, so many examples. Behind it is if Severian has free will or not, or if the whole story is a clockwork show, meant to make him into the person that aliens want him to be. Or if its Severian himself that manipulating his actions. If a universe where determinism rules, when one action leads to another, where every word follows the last, forming a logical combination, we wouldn't have free will. Though its only evolution that allows as to adapt to universe. This is a paradox, we can't have free will with or with out evolution. Severian couldn't make decisions without conditions necessary for their needing to be decided. Every time he performs an execution, this is represented, the "dividing line", his choice to bringing down the blade divides universes, "that it divided the world as the mere line between their covers does two books". There is the objective reality of the novel, what is written on the page, and the subjective reality it creates, what we think about it, what it means and so on. In that religion has given up on the science, and the science has given up on the religion, is the great catastrophe of our age.
The other conciliation is that of literary fiction and genre fiction. The hints of Moby Dick in New Sun best represent this. For its time, Moby Dick was sci fi. Whaling was the most technology advanced enterprise, the cutting edge technology was used to hunt the whale. And the oil harvested was used for the latest machines. The whalers were put out to see just like a star ship, there was no coming back, they had to survive on their own. Now Moby Dick is acknowledged as great literature, maybe the greatest novel ever written. But at the time it was thought of as trash, unreadable. What's gross is how the first edition didn't have the epilogue, critics complained that because everyone died, no one was left to write the story! This is only looking at the most shallow aspects of the story, sure Moby Dick is mostly technical writings about whaling, sure New Sun is about a horny teenager that shooting lasers at aliens, but that's just the surface. Those that were so quick to judge Moby Dick, which really was the sci fi of it's time, are the same kind of people that look down on novels because they contain sword fights and robots and talking dogs. The banality of modern "literature" lacks the cosmic effect of mythology, though its set in our common life it shares nothing with it. [too long too drunk sleep now]
>>7723308
Very good. I almost like it better than New Sun. Its less alien, less antiquely written. Its more of a straight up sci fi drama. But it makes up for that by how emotionally driven the story is. The characters are all real people, how quickly the plot moves along feels every organic. And of course its all a set up for Short Sun, which is so emotional.
>>7724182
Yeah, Long Sun is very long.
>>7724221
But is it blacker than black?
>>7724258
No, it's not particularly grimdark.
>>7724855
Enlightenment came to anon on the /lit/ board; nothing could ever be the same after that.
>>7712328
Wasn't Severian half that elite race (I forgot what they are called). They are all tall and really good looking so that would make sense that the ladies wanted his little Terminus Est.
Unrelated but Jonas might be one of my favorite supporting characters ever.
>>7714657
I remember when Severian figured out how to defeat that giant (former autarch? its been a bit) by punching his other head blew my mind. I literally said "Holy shit" out loud. I was just so clever.
>>7724901
Baldanders? He was an autarch? What? How?
>>7724907
No, not Baldanders. The guy in the mountain. Maybe he wasnt a giant. He was big though. Typhon might of been his name?
>>7724923
He wasn't an autarch of the Severian kind and wasn't a giant.It was Satan
>>7724980
Yeah, I was just trying to describe who he was cause I forgot his name.
Holy shit, though. I need to reread that amazing chapter.
>>7724994
i forget can someone remind me its been so long since i read this. what was the deal with typhons two heads and how does severian kill him?
>>7725000
The other head was a slave that was helping Typhon live. Typhon consumed slaves to have long life, and the head of a slave would protrude out from him. Severian punched the slave head, killing the slave and Typhon.
I think.
>>7724892
Jonas is the best, I was sad to see him go. But how the hell was he related to the undead soldier
>>7725014
Broke the slave's nose, then when Typhon was stunned pushed them out a window. I think.
>>7724980
But Abaia is satan
>>7725044
Both are an image of Satan in the same way Sev is an image of Christ.
Typhon is testing Sev literally in the same way Satan tempted Christ.
>>7725035
When Jonas used that mirror he split into two, his robot half goes to the higher dimension and his human half reincarnating on Urth. Traveling through the mirrors or ships with mirror sails creates alternate universes, that's how the time travel in New Sun works.
>>7725376
Was there a higher point to this?
>>7725387
Maybe that when we die only the righteous half of our soul goes to heaven.
>>7725499
I doubt it.
Wolfe is mostly orthodox and there's only one soul, it doesn't have halves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZvcKB9vQO0
>Ellison literally on fire, unstoppable, talks about whatever the fuck he wants while calling bullshit on other's opinions
>Asimov unfazed by all this calmly speaking his mind like a Zen master
>Wolfe the shy schoolgirl spilling a cubic ton of spaghetti "I am...a c-catholic w-writer..."
this is gold how did I miss this until now
>>7725551
Dunno, it's one of three videos on YouTube featuring Wolfe and the only one where he actually says something worthwhile as they are usually 1-3 minutes long.
>>7724892
I feel the same.
>>7709953
pynchon is catholic
literally went to confession at cornell
>>7728691
Was or is? Like is he a pious Catholic or a lapsed one or a wishy washy one?
>>7728691
I'm surprised by this
>>7729137
I don't believe it
Is there a compilation of all of the moments of the series that specifically relate back to our time / the world's history?
Like the conflated works of fiction from our time or the Apollo astronaut portrait from the Torturer's Citadel. Apparently the whole Citadel is built in an abandoned rocket launching platform, which i never picked up on. And people claim that they figured out it takes place in Argentina / South America but I don't have a fucking clue how.
>>7729221
They drink matte and as Sev travels farther north he enters lush jungles (the Amazon). Pretty sure the Gyoll is analagous to Rio Grande and the abandoned sections of the main city are the coastal areas of Buenos Aires
>>7729283
There is no rio grande in argentina.
>>7729653
Just like white people?
>>7729221
"Ascian" can be translated as "man without shadow", meaning the ascians live at the equator (to the north of the commonwealth). It could hypothetically be Africa, too, but I think there are other reasons for South America.
>>7730267
>translated as "man without shadow", meaning the ascians live at the equator
Is this not a bit of a leap?
>>7730289
Probably not. Wolfe was pedantic.
>>7730289
>isn't this a bit of a leap?
As far as book of the new sun theories go, it's pretty grounded.
>>7726358
I am sober now. Rereading that, I wouldn't change much.
>>7730267
They describe the autochthon as what south american natives look like, they plant mainly corn, there are vast seas to the east and west of nessus, in the north there are mountain ranges in which there is at least one vast lake.
>>7730766
>Severian lies, rapes and murders his way into power
Now that you mention it he could very well be Brazilian.
>>7730267
I thought Ascian was from latin "scio" (to know), i.e. "those who don't know (language)".
>>7730783
Or a communist
>>7730902
Those are nearly synonyms nowadays.
>>7730783
Severian never lies, it barely was rape, and all of his killing was in service of the state or self defense.
