Why did God need to sacrifice his son to redeem man? Why couldn't he just have forgiven man?
Also, is his "son" being an offspring of himself, mean that Jesus was actually God since he was directly connected from God? Why would God sacrifice himself then?
>>7522742
the son was sacrificed so that we would know and so that the Jews would know we are forgiven. in orthodox Judaism the Jews sacrifice something to atone for their sins, usually livestock. the biggest sacrifice they usually made was a well-bred lamb this is why Christ is called the lamb of god because he is the great atonement and sacrifice
>>7522751
but why do we need to sacrifice something to atone for sins? So God sacrificed himself to himself to redeem man? Himself in human form that is. I'm confused.
>>7522751
ok so nobody can answer this. great thread
We were born imperfect, and wouldn't have learned anything without a sacrifice.
>>7522742
The typical Protestant answer is that God is both infinitely just and infinitely merciful. The cross allows God to be both just (in that he won't allow any sin to go unpunished but will pour out his wrath and hatred on it) and allows him to be merciful (in that he provides the sacrifice for his justice himself). As Paul says, it allows God to be both "just and the justifier."
>>7522792
Here is a short video by a popular, Puritan-ish pastor explaining it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXOWyjB7d24
>>7522792
...This is actually the best answer to this question I've heard yet.
Makes one wonder, why hasn't any believer been able to give me that answer when I've posed the same question?
i dont get it. how does killing something make up for sins? What's the logic behind that? Could you kill an ant and get the same effect
>>7522742
It makes for a memorable story, OP.
>>7522825
Again, in the Protestant understanding, there is something called propitiation. it says in 1 John that Jesus was a "propitiation for our sins," which means that he was sacrificed in place of our sins. This fulfills what was typologically foretelling this event in the Old Testament, when the high priest would put the sins of the people of Israel onto a lamb on the day of atonement.
So, in a mystery, God moves the guilt from Christians onto Jesus and punishes Jesus for those sins as if Jesus himself was the one who actually committed them. "He who knew no sin became sin for our sake," as it says.
So, this allows God to be both just and the justifier, both merciful to those he forgives and perfectly just in pouring out his wrath on sin and not letting any sin go unpunished.
>>7522757
>>7522825
Animal sacrifice is a widespread cultural event, but not just for atonement. It's usually for general communication with god/gods. A way to get their attention through paying respects with the smell of the offering and then have a big feast afterwards. It means worship across the world.
So God sacrificing himself for us is a pretty radical inversion. So is God becoming flesh in the first place. It connects God with the world through the release of the Holy Spirit as well. God condescends to become man and at the same time lifts man up to a divine level in the embodiment of Christ and the enthusiasm of the Spirit.
>>7522854
I also think that people simply worship Jesus for undergoing such torment and refusing to condemn us. So practically it works out as well.
Man sacrificed animals and such for God, something dear to them and their survival. This was done as penitence for their sins. It of course is much more complex than that, but if you had the knowledge required for all that, you wouldn't ask. So, God made a greater sacrifice for Man, abolishing them of need for that penitence and thereby removing the need for Him to punish man because he has punished both Man and God as one.
>>7522813
Face-to-face? Most Christians are essentially illiterate and are literalists, the thought never came to them even if they are one of the few that has actually read the Bible.
>>7522854
>Again, in the Protestant understanding
That's where you done goofed, if you're going to pick the wrong religion then at least pick the classier version of it.
>>7522903
I'm always surprised at the number of Christians I've talked to in real life who have no idea about the divinity of Jesus, which is supposed to be one the most historic, universal beliefs of all the different denominations -- the Trinity. I think the average Christian is an Arian.
>>7522742
Justice.
>>7522792
>Punishing innocents for the sins of others
>Self-flagellation for the sins of others
>Just
>>7523362
>things arent just because they trigger me ;_;
>>7522911
>which is supposed to be one the most historic, universal beliefs of all the different denominations
Trinity contradicts sola scriptura to be quite honest with you f@m. Protestants are hypocrites for believing it.
>>7523368
>Go to court
>Ask judge to punish someone else for muh atonement
But, 'hurr you is triggered'.
>>7523384
Courts and judges are far from just you progressive moron.
>>7523391
So a just court would accept the offer?
>>7523391
Also
>progressive
Nice try, but I agree with /pol/ on most issues. Try harder with your strawmans next time.
>>7522742
who knows. nobody has ever really looked into the subject that i know of..
>>7523458
>There is no just court
Hypothetically, dipshit.
>>7522742
Yes Jesus is God in the form of Man
Creditor/debtor relationship, read the Genealogy.
The word becoming flesh is the defaulting on a loan, word = the agreement, flesh = blood payment. The actual agreement itself has been rescinded and your covenant with god is over.
To rightfully be a christian today is just to recognize god doesn't care about us anymore. We revere christ for being liberated from our debt.
>>7523565
Sorry, passing thought:
If we're liberated from our debt, what encourages us to abstain from sin still?
>>7522742
God, being an entity who cannot die, created himself in human form to experience what being mortal was. He then died for our sins, because he didn't know being human was so shit. In the process he forgives us of our sins, because he shouldn't have judged us without knowing what it was like first. All he requires is that you acknowledge him as savior of your sins and you can go to heaven.
In doing all of this, God basically admits he was wrong, which proves he cannot be an All Knowing being.
>>7522859
This post converted me.
>>7523497
no he wasnt
he was a messenger
God could forgive man, he forgave a lot in the OT.
Christ's sacrifice was required for God to commune fully with the human condition, which meant the feeling (thought not necessarily an actuality) of separation from the divine, death, etc.
God would probably have become man to commune with us even without the fall, but the fall meant he had to go through the ordeal of death to fully commune.
