What books should i begin with if i wanted to start learning theology? After the bible of course.
>>7512487
You don't need any books after the bible. You just have to look in your heart.
Read a selection of writings from Anselm, Aquinas, and Augustine. Penguin has a selection for Aquinas. Oxford has a selection for Anselm. Augustine's "Confessions" should suffice.
>>7512487
Read the bible over and over again, then Augustine. Come back after you do city of god and confessions.
>>7512493
Shut up faggot.
Don't jump straight into Anselm and Aquinas if you're just starting, that's retarded. Read Feser, Chesterton, Lewis, Imitation of Christ, maybe Confessions. Get a really good study Bible, best one is probably the Didache
Bible from Ignatius Press. If this thread is still around tomorrow I'll post a really thorough guide.
>>7512487
Just to make this really clear, you will get NOTHING out of reading the Bible straight through without supplementary material or commentary. Best way is to talk to your priest and see if there's a Bible study you can do, or if he can guide you through himself. Otherwise, study bible and even the day don't read straight through. Start with the gospels and Paul (again, WITH COMMENTARY) then read some other theology/apologetics. Chesterton and Lewis are excellent for newcomers. Especially Orthodoxy and Mere Christianity. Again, I'll post details tomorrow if this thread lives.
I strongly suggest the Philokalia
>>7512571
ill try to keep it alive then
start with the greeks
OP don't read until you've got a confident grasp of scripture. At least the NT. You'll need it, because theres many, many, many false teachers/teachings out there. No teacher is infallible.
But to answer, read the classics. Mere Christianity, Confessions, an abridged version of A History of the Church. Stay away from the stuff thats leaning towards a more biased view until you're confident in your own view (but not just biased of your own view).
Good luck OP. Remember to stay open minded. The most important thing you can do is love God, because only that will make you willing to follow the truth no matter where it leads or how uncomfortable it is.
Ephesians 4
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[c] and teachers,[d] 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[e] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
>>7512720
I haven't read the Didache, but I know it is highly regarded by the Orthodox Church
As for the Philokalia, let it speak for itself
https://archive.org/details/Philokalia-TheCompleteText
I also really, really recommend The Way of the Pilgrim,, which you can find online easily enough. It makes heavy reference to the Philokalia You will find it a very easy, albeit deep, read, and you will enjoy it, I guarantee you.
God bless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1FzSC8DBs
does anyone know any verses being a hard work and not a lazy neet?
>>7513010
being*
>>7513010
Acts 20
31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish every one with tears. 32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel. 34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. 35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
>>7513010
Yes, but if you are a lazy NEET, reading these verses isn't going to help you (but making them a mantra might).
You need to fast, pray, confess and love. And to constantly remind yourself that as God's people, you are His wife. You mus behave as the ideal wife, and not like the wife from Married With Children.
If you have a really hard time, I urge you to turn your internet off and start doing at least twenty push ups every morning if you can't get yourself to go running.
>>7513030
aight aight now give me the catholic perspective
>>7513046
I can't, I'm not Roman Catholic.
>>7513046
"Those who did not work did not eat"
Ora et labora
Can anyone tell me if the Catholic church is good or not?
>>7514149
It's good
>>7512725
>meme
>>7512725
This but unironically.
Plato, though he never knew him in his mind, knew Christ in his heart and predicted him.
>>7512571
I've been mostly doing fine reading antiquated KJV starting from the Genesis and occasionally either googling up Bible related maps or wiki pages. And English isn't even my native language. I don't get it why are you implying that people need clutches or supplements to read something so they understand it 100% on the first go. Too much commentary is only a distraction. I'm still glad for reading out Illiad for the first time without any commentary to distract me from the sheer aesthetics of the poem; Bible is fine with little to no commentary if you are from the Occident.
Someone already said it, but start with Plato. Then Plotinus. They heavily influenced Christian theology - Augustine, the first great author of the church, had Plato in high regard.
Must be interesting to read Jerome's letters too.
>>7512562
post guide pls
>>7512571
>you will get NOTHING out of reading the Bible straight through without supplementary material or commentary.
Only true if you don't have the Holy Spirit to teach you. Saying that is a huge red flag that you aren't someone that should be giving advice on this
>>7515033
what does that even mean?
>>7514676
why do you think that?
>>7513010
Go read Ecclessiastes
who are the best theologians?
Try Ratzinger's "Jesus of Nazareth". He seems perfect for people who are converting having read modern intellectuals like Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, Heidegger, etc., because he's familiar with them all and knows how to speak the language of modern intellectualism.
Ratzinger served as Pope Benedict XVI but by temperament he's always been a scholar/intellectual.
You can read his encyclicals online for free
https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals.index.html
>>7516761
was he a good pope?
>>7516769
I'm not qualified to judge. I'd have to look at the aims of his pontificate and see if he had achieved them.
My impression is that he was something of a captive in the Vatican surrounded by the corrupt forces working in the Church:
>During an audience with the Pope, Bishop Fellay found himself alone with the Pope for a moment. His Excellency seized the opportunity to remind the Pope that he is the Vicar of Christ, possessed of the authority to take immediate measures to end the crisis in the Church on all fronts. The Pope replied thus: “My authority ends at that door.”
>My dear friends – at this moment I can only say: pray for me, that I may learn to love the Lord more and more. Pray for me, that I may learn to love his flock more and more – in other words, you, the holy Church, each one of you and all of you together. Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves.
There's been a lot of mess since the Second Vatican Council (historically chaos has followed ecumenical councils), and so we need an extraordinarily strong pope to put an end to certain excesses and purge the corrupt members in the Church. The thing is that the Second Vatican Council stressed the collegiality of the bishops and downplayed the authority of the pope, so he doesn't have as much immediate power as he used to, apparently. Ratzinger seems to me to be primarily a man of thought/contemplation, a scholar. He's not suited to be the Grand Inquisitor Pope that the Church perhaps would benefit from. I think that Pope Francis is stronger than Pope Benedict in that he has a more forceful personality, and apparently he has publicly expressed anger over corruption.
>>7516791
Francis seems to be going hand in hand with a lot of the Vatican II mess.
Ratzinger was a good pope,but as you say, he wasn't as powerful as he may have needed to be.
Jesus of Nazareth is a fantastic text, still have one volume to go. He hits simplicity of expression and complexity of ideas extremely well
>>7516090
Platonic idealism fits perfectly with Christianity.
You should start with Plato and Aristotle, then move on to christian fathers, augustine and scholasticism
Both Aquinas and Anselm have quite approachable, shorter works on metaphysics
>>7516724
Start with the Desert Fathers
>>7516814
Not perfectly. Platonic Idealism can go the way of Manicheanism/Gnosticism, the idea that the created world is evil, that matter is evil. For Plato man is not a union of spirit and matter, but a spirit that existed from the beginning of time in the One, but who fell away from the One into the prison of matter, and who must now return and reascend to the purely spiritual One. This is totally against the doctrine of the creation of man as union of body and soul, that the body is essential to manhood. The doctrines that go against Platonism are: Creation, the Incarnation of God (the Son) in the flesh, the resurrection of the body (at the end of time all human souls will return to their bodies, and the just will live eternally in glorified bodies). There's nothing more repugnant to the Gnostic mind than the Incarnation, that God united Himself with flesh. For them the flesh is a prison and a punishment in itself. For Plato the material world is often just a source of illusion. This is why Aristotle, in the last analysis, ends up more suitable to Christian theology than Plato, because for Aristotle the material world is not primarily a source of illusions but a source of knowledge, which fits much better with the Christian doctrine of Creation, because if the created world is primarily a source of illusion then it would have been evil for God to have created us in a body.
>>7516809
would you be able to explain the vatican II and why it exists?
>>7516825
This has the tone of refusing Platonism's already tangible influence on Christianity. The writing is on the wall.
>>7513010
I think it's 1 Corinthians 13
>>7516825
For Plato knowledge is of "universals before/prior things" (universalia ante res). Our knowledge is not of any particular horse, but of the Idea horseness which pre-exists any particular horse. Therefore our mind belongs properly to this gnostic World of Ideas.
For Aristotle knowledge is primarily of "the universals in things" (universalia in rebus). Our knowledge is acquired by a spiritual action called abstraction where we perceive the particular thing in our senses and then "abstract" its universal nature. In other word, things IN THEMSELVES are intelligible, are real, are objects of knowledge. This makes the entire sensible world a place fertile for knowledge. The world becomes God revealing Himself to us rather than an illusion taking us away from God: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." This goes against Plato's universals before things AND Occam's universals after things (nominalism) where knowledge is of our own concepts which are formed independently of particular things and are merely attached to them by names/labels. The key Aristotelian realisation is the world is immanently intelligible.
>>7516840
Platonism did influence Christianity but its influence is somewhat overstated.
>>7516840
Both Plato and Aristotle have influenced Christianity greatly, it mostly differs between eras and thinkers as to where they lean - e.g. Augustinian vs. thomistic theology.
>>7513010
Proverbs 12:24
The hand of the diligent will rule, while the slothful will be put to forced labor.
>>7512562
Where'd you go?
The God Delusion
>>7520027
Lol had jaw surgery yesterday and overestimated how enthusiastic id feel about coming back to this. Maybe when my cheeks aren't the size of watermelons again.
>>7520049
tips fedora
>>7520267
gib guide pls
does theology get respect anywhere outside of the faith?
>>7512487
The concordia of Lutheran Confessions. Even if you don't agree it highlights many of the catholic church's fuck ups which arguably have been what most lightly informed people have problems with.
>>7513046
If you don't do your good works you get a one way ticket to hell, or inaginary wonderland purgatory
>>7520267
Sad stuff, mate. Get well soon.
>>7512487
CS Lewis
>>7520380
not really. in academia it's mostly used by philosophers, literary analysts and religious studies majors to shed light on their own subject, not necessarily as something that stands alone. for example someone might write about the effects of mariology on female rights in the phillipines or something like that.
Paul Tillich
>>7520659
why
Is The Divine Comedy a nice overview of christian teology? Is it part of the canon? Is it just fanfic?
>>7522351
What do you think?
>>7522268
cause he helps us to understand the nature of faith
>>7522351
it is fiction and not cannon. It is a poem about theology, politics, and faith. it covers a whole world of ideas and themes from a religious perspective.
>>7522759
thanks anon
tfw anon never posted the guide
>>7524762
Required Reading:
>The Bible (Douy-Rheims)
>Catechism of the Catholic Church
>Parts of the Summa Theologica (Specifically Part 1 and Part 3).
Apologetics:
>Handbook of Catholic Apologetics-Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli
>The Everlasting Man-Chesterton
>Orthodoxy-Chesterton
>Catholicism-Journey Into the Heart of the Faith- Robert Barron
Theology:
>Summa Theologica-St. Thomas Aquinas
>City of God-Augustine
>The Works of St. Anselm
>On the Incarnation-St. Athanasius
>Defense Against the Arians-St. Athanasius
>The Consolation of Philosophy-Boethius
>Pensees-Pascal
>Introduction to Christianity and Jesus of Nazareth Series by Joseph Ratzinger
Biography/Conversion works:
>The Confessions-St. Augustine
>Apologia Pro Vita Sua-John Henry Newman
>The Seven Storey Mountain-Thomas Merton
Historical/Sociological works:
>The Formation of Christendom-Christopher Dawson
>The Dividing of Christendom-Christopher Dawson
>History of the Catholic Church-James Hitchcock
>Keepers of the Keys of Heaven: A History of the Papacy
Literature:
> Shusaku Endo- Silence
>The Divine Comedy-Dante Alighieri
>The Works of Flannery O'Connor-Flannery O'Connor
>The Power and the Glory-Graham Greene
>Diary of a Country Priest-Georges Bernanos
>The Works of G.K. Chesterton
>The Moviegoer-Walker Percy
>Lancelot-Walker Percy
>The Lord of the Rings-J.R.R. Tolkien
>The Book of the New Sun-Gene Wolfe
>Brideshead Revisited-Evelyn Waugh
>The Canterbury Tales-Chaucer
>A Canticle for Liebowitz-Walter M. Miller
>Tears of the Prodigal Son- Ivan Gundilic
Mysticism:
>Collected writings of Meister Eckhart
>Louis Lallemant: Spiritual Doctrine
>The Dark Night of the Soul-St. John of the Cross
>Collected Writings- St. John of the Cross
>The Interior Castle- St. Teresa of Avila
>Revelations of Divine Love- Julian of Norwich
>New Seeds of Contemplation- Thomas Merton
>No Man is an Island-Thomas Merton
>Thoughts in Solitude-Thomas Merton
There you go
>>7524782
Dude no one who tries to just jump into medieval philosophy is going to make it more than a page or understand anything. Not to mention the fact that the "Summa" assumes the reader has familiarity with Aristotelian metaphysics.
"To understand this, it must be noted that in things composed of matter and form, the nature or essence must differ from the "suppositum," because the essence or nature connotes only what is included in the definition of the species; as, humanity connotes all that is included in the definition of man, for it is by this that man is man, and it is this that humanity signifies, that, namely, whereby man is man. Now individual matter, with all the individualizing accidents, is not included in the definition of the species. For this particular flesh, these bones, this blackness or whiteness, etc., are not included in the definition of a man. Therefore this flesh, these bones, and the accidental qualities distinguishing this particular matter, are not included in humanity; and yet they are included in the thing which is man. Hence the thing which is a man has something more in it than has humanity. Consequently humanity and a man are not wholly identical; but humanity is taken to mean the formal part of a man, because the principles whereby a thing is defined are regarded as the formal constituent in regard to the individualizing matter."
(ST I.I Q8 A3)
Good luck understanding that if it's your first time studying Aquinas.
>>7512725
>need to grasp scriptures before studying theology
>can't grasp scriptures unless already studied theology
>>7512487
>>7514913
>>7520027
>>7520377
>>7512571
Not this guy but here are some suggestions:
First of all, don't START with the Bible. That's like going, "where should I start learning physics? After studying string theory of course." The Bible is what you get to read once you know what you're doing, just like theoretical physics is what you get to do after studying all the shit that comes before it.
"The Republic," -Plato. (Yes we're starting with philosophy. Yes, this is necessary).
"Aquinas" -Edward Feser.
"Principles of Logic" -G. H. Joyce
"Being and Some Philosophers" -Etienne Gilson
"The Image of His Maker" -Robert Brennan
"Epistemology" -P Coffey (Volume I https://archive.org/details/epistemologyort00coffgoog and Volume II https://archive.org/details/epistemologyort00unkngoog )
"Right and Reason" -Austin Fagothey
"Nicomachean Ethics" -Aristotle
"Confessions" -Augustine
"Orthodoxy." "The Everlasting Man," and "The Thing" by G.K. Chesterton (These can be read whenever you'd like. BTW skip Lewis and Kempis until you've got a really solid grounding in theology).
"The Christian Idea of Man" -Josef Pieper
"The Reality of God and the Problem of Evil" -Brian Davies
"God: His Existence and His Nature" -Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange
NOW you can start "The Summa Theologica" by Aquinas.
More
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/05/scholastics-bookshelf-part-iv.html
>>7525107
Forgot to add, "Reality: A Synthesis of Thomistic Thought" -Garrigou-Lagrange. Put it anywhere after Gilson but before Davies.
>>7525107
Also, just fyi, this is not a complete guide to forming your intellect, this is just a pathway theology. It's still necessary to read things like classic literature (Homer, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, those kinds of guys) in order to have a properly formed intellect.
>somebody asks for theologians
>only western theologians are mentioned
EVERY TIME
>>7525173
but those are the best
>>7525107
>First of all, don't START with the Bible.
Why did you not then mention WHEN he is supposed to start reading it?
Otherwise it implies that he should start reading the bible first after The Summa Theologica, or maybe this is what you intended?
>>7525277
My point was more that you shouldn't try to use the Bible as the basis for teaching yourself theology, rather you should learn good theology and use that to read the Bible. I'm not saying that you need to wait to read all that before starting to study the Bible, but simply ignoring all the theologians before you and cracking open your Bible is how you get John Calvin.
The Bible isn't simply a work of theology. It's theology, ethics, metaphysics, history, poetry, and more. Other people have made good suggestions, such as the Didache. Besides that you can read commentaries on the Bible of which there are too many to list. As a rule it's good to use people that have an "St." in front of their name. I don't consider myself very knowledgeable about the Bible itself so I'll leave specific suggestions to other people.
>>7513030
This is a meme
>>7515033
Pretty much this.
He calls the guy with that has it right a faggot too. Remember that you can real all the theology in the world and still be an ignormous like this guy.
Best is if you a combination of looking into your heart (primary), reading and having a mentor or teacher
Kabbalah.
>>7512487
Plato, Aristotle, St Augustine, St Aquinas
>tfw Catholics get no respect on this site
>>7525423
You know I must have missed the part of the Bible where it says "just ignore what anyone else has to say, God chose YOU specifically to be the one guy to interpret the Bible on his own and get it completely right. Don't worry about not knowing anything about the Trinity, or God's simplicity, or the fact that everyone who interprets the Bible on their own disagrees with each other about everything."
You know what I do remember it saying? "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation."
>>7525733
The way I see it, either there's an infallible, stable source of interpretation or it's completely irrelevant and subjective
But I don't see where that source is. I guess the best candidates are the Catholic and Orthodox Church, but it's far from sure.
The whole thing with studying church history just makes me wanna go back to atheism and study theology as a hobby desu
>>7525741
>The way I see it, either there's an infallible, stable source of interpretation or it's completely irrelevant and subjective
Yes. Exactly. Hence the Catholic Church and the infallibility of the Pope and Magisterium. "On this rock" and all that.
>>7525674
>americans
>>7525813
:(
Dominion and Dynasty is quite alright, if it is what you are looking for. Essentially, it connects the books of the old testament and explains what was going on in the world. Very good read if you can keep up. I, being quite familiar with the old testament, found it captivating. Let us know here if you pick it up, OP!
>>7512562
>Recommending Lewis for theology
>at all, ever
Instantly discredited
The one thing you need to realize, if you are going to take theology seriously, in any way whatosever.
Is that you ARE GOING TO DIE.
Consider that very, very, VERY carefullly. Most of you will NEVER consider that fact. But. You. Are going to be DEAD one day. Consider that VERY, VERY carefully.
>>7526890
I am aware of my mortality you idiot, that is an obvious fact. I don't know why you took the time to point that out.
>>7526875
i have heard this meme alot what exactly is wrong with c.s lewis
>>7525173
you know what would be nice.
if you named some eastern christian theoligians
>>7526997
Literally just read any non-fiction he's written for 5 seconds
>>7525173
name some that aren't western then faggot
>>7527094
Yeah, Lewis is a little inadequate in that regard.
Chesterton is better because Chesterton doesn't try to appeal to logic and 'reason' nearly as much as Lewis. He's more about the why of things than the how and the what.
>>7526890
So profound...
>>7527143
how pictures of little girls do you have on you hard drive anon?dont be scared little fawn
>>7526997
He's a neoplatonist in disguise. If you read "The Great Divorce" or "The Last Battle" you can see pretty clearly that he doesn't consider the physical world to be "as real" as heaven is. In both books when the characters reach heaven they see how fake everything they thought was real is.
>>7526890
Literally every existentialist deals with death all the time.
>>7525107
the bible is nothing like theoretical physics. it's literally just children's stories.
>>7525173
>East ignores a good chunk of the western theologians
>complains about no one talking about the Eastern theologians
EVERY TIME
>>7512562
so much education and yet you never learnt decent manners. tisk tisk
>>7529084
All the existentialists are better than Buddha. Prove me wrong.
>>7512487
Thomas Merton, Philip Kapleau
"I cannot go on, all that I have written seems like so much straw compared to what I have seen." - Aquinas
>>7512487
Bait? i hope so
