Can we discuss Matthew 16:18 from an Orthodox perspective?
"Petros" means a stone that can be easily moved (generally small enough to throw), whereas "petra" means a stone that cannot be moved (a massive boulder or a cliff). So it's pretty clear Christ was saying, "Moreover to you I say that you are [wavering] stone, I build my Church on this, [probably indicating himself, Matthew 16:16] the [unmovable, mountainous] rock.
Indeed, Peter is a wavering stone, he ends up denying Christ and committing apostasy (though he certainly repents and is a saint and martyr), despite being Christ's most ardent disciple.
> A reconstructed Aramaic/Syriac of the passage would properly be:
>"You are KE'PHA' (a movable stone) and upon this SHU`A' (a large massive rock) I will build my church."
>This is in exact correspondence to the original inspired Greek text:
>"You are PETROS (a movable stone) and upon this PETRA (a large massive rock) I will build my church.".
To close, I'm going to quote 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
>Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
>SHU'A'
Oy vey!
>>7438044
It probably comes from צוּר
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6697.htm
Cephas comes from
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3721.htm
>>7437992
You make the mistake of assuming that Matthew is a direct transliteration of the account, as though a court reporter is there.
Also is this the original Greek that you're referencing or a newer adaptation?
>>7438199
It's the original Greek
>>7437992
>"Petros" means a stone that can be easily moved (generally small enough to throw)
No, Πέτρος is the proper name Peter. Also the context makes it clear that Jesus has in view Peter's profession of faith in v. 16: 'You are the Christ/anointed one, the son of the living God.'
Accordingly the reconstruction of a supposed original beyond the Greek is on shaky ground.
>Indeed, Peter is a wavering stone, he ends up denying Christ and committing apostasy (though he certainly repents and is a saint and martyr), despite being Christ's most ardent disciple.
With you there.
But is the point of this to undermine Catholicism or the Western church in general? Not sure what the purpose is here.
>>7438092
>Cephas comes from
>http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3721.htm
That's not correct; try this:
http://biblehub.com/greek/2786.htm
>>7438275
Petros means a small stone, and it is always used that way.
>3. Classic Greek authors (before the New Testament was written) treat the words PETROS and PETRA as two different words.
According to Liddell and Scott:
Petros, ...(distinct from petra)...
Hom. IL. 16.734; 7:270; 20.288
E. Heracl.1002, "panta kinesai petron" ..."Leave no stone unturned"
cf. Pl. Lg. 843a
X. HG 3.5.20 "Petrous epekulindoun" "They rolled down stones."
S. Ph 296 to produce fire "en petroisi petron ektribon"
Id. OC 1595 of a boulder forming a landmark
[the usual prose word is lithos]"
from: A Greek - English Lexicon, complied by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott, pg. 1397- 8, Pub. by Oxford, at the Clarendon Press.)
NOTE: Petros, a stone, a smaller movable stone (Heracletes uses it in the phrase "leave no stone unturned.") So, a "PETROS" is a stone which can by turned over, hence, a movable stone.
The only grounds you could have for saying it's meant to be a proper name version of it is that it is masculine whereas petra is feminine. However, titles for men based on feminine nouns in Greek don't change gender, even when they effectively become names, so that is not a valid objection.
>>7438296
That's just a Hellenization of the Aramaic word.
>>7438303
>you are a small flimsy stone which is easily moved and on it I will build my church
Makes Jesus sound pretty silly doesn't it?
>>7438309
Maybe you should re-read the OP. Christ says His Church is built on "this, the *petra*". Petra means a mountainous stone. Like the city, petra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra
>>7438333
And the whole point of this thread is that petra is very different from petros. Think of it like this, Christ is saying, "I say that you are Boulderette, I build my Church on this the boulder."
He's clearly referring to Peter, as he does on the on the right before and after Mt 16,18.
>Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
>I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven
(which also give biblical grounding to the "extra ecclesia nulla salus")
But then again this is silly because up until the schism the byzantine church recognized the papal primacy, even if only primus inter pares, much.
>>7438385
>on the on the right
I think i had a stroke here
>>7438303
>The only grounds you could have for saying it's meant to be a proper name version of it is that it is...
The grounds I have for pointing out that it's a proper name here is that Jesus is talking to Peter, addressing him directly. To take this as the noun meaning 'small stone' here is absurd.
>>7438305
Yes of course, but that's not the word
>>7438385
>I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven
He says this to all the Apostles in Matthew 18:18
>>7438414
Petros is a proper name version of petra, Petra works just as well as a proper name in Greek.
>>7438422
I just used the older English transliteration of the same word. The English transliteration "c" used for Greek is always pronounced "k" (Cyprus would be pronounced Kypras, or "Kupras" in ancient Greek).
>>7438431
Because they were the first church, as explained rightly after as the community of believers. But as Peter is the first to recognize him after the resurrection, he's the rock on which the church is founded.
Then again Orthodox christians never had a problem in recognizing the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, the problem started when theat primacy was used to limit the indipendence of the various Patriarchates, for a thousand years that primacy as unquestioned,
>>7438446
>Petros is a proper name version of petra, Petra works just as well as a proper name in Greek.
The point here is that Jesus is calling him by name and not calling him a little stone.
>I just used the older English transliteration of the same word.
And the point here is that the word referred to in >>7438092 is כָּפַף kaphapf 'to bend,' which is not where Cephas comes from; it comes from כיפא 'rock.'
>>7438385
Matthew 16:16-16:18 is essentially saying
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Boulderette answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Bouldette, and on this [or "that"] the boulder I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
>>7438464
>The point here is that Jesus is calling him by name and not calling him a little stone.
And he is named (by Jesus) movable stone, not massive stone.
>And the point here is that the word referred to in >>7438092 is כָּפַף kaphapf 'to bend,' which is not where Cephas comes from; it comes from כיפא 'rock.'
I am saying that the Aramaic word for movable rock comes from the Hebrew word
>>7438470
The whole premise of saying that the name Peter is 'movable' is a faulty one. Yes, Peter denied Jesus and showed his human weakness, but that comes from elsewhere. To say it's here in the name is to read something into the name that sinply isn't there; it's eisegesis, not exegesis.
>>7438493
It is in the name though. Petros literally means a movable rock as established by its usage in Greek texts, it *is* in the name.
