In which order should I read the Greeks? In which order should I read Plato's works?
Thrasymachus' Order
>>7378719
What sophistry!
Any chance of a real answer? Please /lit/.
lucians dialogue of the courtesans and the death of peregrinus
>>7378709
Pretty sure there's a whole section on the wiki abut this?
Never really got the "start with the Greeks" meme personally though desu
>>7378709
For the Greeks generally, just follow the chronological order, i.e., Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus, the playwrights, the pre-Socratics, Thucydides, Xenophon, Plato, Aristotle, etc.
As for the order of Plato's dialogues, there are a number of "orders" one can read them in.
There's the tetralogies of Thrasyllus:
1) Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, Phædo
2) Cratylus, Theætetus, Sophist, Statesman
3) Parmenides, Philebus, Symposium, Phædrus
4) Alcibiades, 2nd Alcibiades, Hipparchus, Rival Lovers
5) Theages, Charmides, Laches, Lysis
6) Euthydemus, Protagoras, Gorgias, Meno
7) Hippias major, Hippias minor, Ion, Menexenus
8) Clitophon, Republic, Timæus, Critias
9) Minos, Laws, Epinomis, [Letters]
There's the subsequent Neo-Platonic reading order, set up by Iamblichus:
Alcibiades Major, Gorgias, Phaedo, Cratylus, Theaetetus, Sophist, Statesman, Phaedrus, Symposium, Philebus, Parmenides, Timaeus
There's the more recent (developed within the last century and a half) order, based on an assumption of the order of Plato's supposed development:
Early: Apology (of Socrates), Charmides, Crito, Euthyphro, Gorgias, Hippias Minor, Hippias Major, Ion, Laches, Lysis, Protagoras
Middle/Transitional : Cratylus, Euthydemus, Meno, Parmenides, Phaedo, Phaedrus, Republic, Symposium,
Middle/Late : Theaetetus
Late : Critias, Sophist, Statesman, Timaeus , Philebus, Laws
There's a much newer order put forth by Catherine Zuckert in her huge study of all the dialogues, "Plato's Philosophers," based on what she takes to be the dramatic order:
Laws, Epinomis, Parmenides, Protagoras, Alcibiades Major, Alcibiades Minor, Charmides, Laches, Hippias Major, Hippias Minor, Symposium, Phaedrus, Ion, Clitophon, Republic, Philebus, Timaeus, Critias, Theages, Euthydemus, Lysis, Gorgias, Meno, Theaetetus, Euthyphro, Cratylus, Sophist, Statesman, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Menexenus
(cont.)
>>7378747
I meant Thrassylus' order
My mistake
>>7379163
Thank you! This is excellent.
>>7379163
But there's also other ways of going about reading the dialogues, depending on your interests, and that order is largely determined by thematic groupings, or more natural groupings based on dramatology.
For example, dialogues on virtue: The Meno is *the* dialogue on virtue, but it'd have to be complemented by a study of Republic (Justice), Charmides (Moderation), Laches (Courage), and perhaps Theaetetus (Knowledge; it seems noteworthy that there's no dialogue devoted strictly to Wisdom by itself, though the Theaetetus might be close) and Euthyphro (Piety).
The Meno itself points to two other dialogues, both dealing with public sophistry in its two forms, the rhetoric (Gorgias) and sophistry proper (Protagoras). Meno, in his dialogue, seems to work off of views he picked up from Gorgias, and the question about the teachability of virtue is dealt with differently in Protagoras.
Zuckert's pairing of Theaetetus, Euthyphro, Cratylus, Sophist, Statesman, Apology, Crito, and Phaedo together towards the end of her order is a natural set of pairings of dialogues all touching on the end of Socrates' life.
Parmenides, Symposium, and Phaedo all give accounts of how Socrates made his "second sailing" in philosophy, by portraying the development of his youthful attempts to make sense of things.
We also have correspondences between some dialogues, like Republic and Gorgias, and Symposium and Phaedrus. Roughly, the relationship is Justice (a) : Rhetoric of Justice (b) :: Eros (c) : Rhetoric of Eros (d), which suggests different ways to read those four, so that you could also take them as (a) : (c) :: (b) : (d), or vice versa, and so on.
With these observations in mind, it seems that one can jump in almost anywhere, and follow up with dialogues that complement certain philosophical themes.
>>7378719
So just the Clitophon then, hm?
