Basically the subject line. I've been trying to find sources, studies etc about the issue but can't find a neutral one.
My main question is, do you think that all these 'new' genders that are coming around in the 21st century are just ways to feel like a special snowflake or is there legitimate medical studies performed on this?
>>6542867
The reason these genders are new is that they were made up by some overweight teenage girl.
Gays and trannies on the other hand have always been a thing and always will be.
I sincerely hope this made up identity plague is extinguished soon but it looks like it's only becoming more and more accepted because nobody has the balls to stand up against it.
>>6542871
Obviously 'otherkin' and all that other shit is retarded, lol. What i'm wondering about is stuff like 'pansexual' and 'asexual'. Why isn't asexuality just 'I don't like sex'?
Who is telling you they are x gender? If the person is a white cis heterosexual female who is middle class and goes to college, chances are it is special snowflake shit. Women have female privilege to protect them from the very real violence men face for not conforming to gender stereotypes. If the person telling you they are X gender is assigned male at birth chances are their gender identity is legit as they put themselves in real danager to tell you their identity.
>>6542875
Pansexuality is just bisexuality and asexuality isn't a sexuality as you've said.
I think these two things in particular are probably not worth worrying about because they at least serve some purpose.
Someone saying they're pansexual is probably open minded and not worth dating and someone saying they asexual probably doesn't want sex and isn't worth dating.
>>6542879
I have two (three if you count a gay) who identify as pansexual (male) and asexual (female)
>>6542883
http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2013/01/a-comprehensive-list-of-lgbtq-term-definitions/
What are your thoughts about these terms?
Most of them don't make sense to me and seem useless. If i'm being retarded please correct me
>>6542888
No, you're correct in that they're mostly just useless made up shit.
>>6542896
What does the LGBTQI community say are 'legitimate' genders/identities?
>>6542884
Pansexual is not a new gender, it is a sexuality that has been around for decades. It used to be the difference between pansexual and bisexual is deodorant but now it has moved from a hippy sexuality born from bi-stigma to a mainstream movement. The main reason it has caught on though it because it allows women to be "bi" without needing to ever like a girl. "Oh yeah I would totally fuck a girl, but only if we had a connection. What? no one like that? Okay bring on the cock, this progressive pussy needs some attention."
>>6542903
Lmao. I see. I'm more interested in the scientific aspects, rather than the social causes. From what i'm read specks of, different gender identity from the norm has been around for centuries (maybe even far back as BC, I think I read that somewhere).
>>6542902
The LGBT (there are no other letters) community knows that there are only two gender and that you're born one or the other.
Maybe your gender doesn't match your sex but even then that only makes for 4 different possibilities.
The way I see it, it doesn't really matter how legit they are.
If they identify as a heliodemiandroic un-girl, and they're just making shit up for attention, what does it cost you to just indulge them? Nothing. As long as they're not insisting you refer to them with some nonsense pronoun composed of thirteen syllables and a slurry of x y z and q, then you lose absolutely nothing by just playing along with their bullshit.
And what if they really are a heliodemiandroic un-girl? It would make you out to be a pretty terrible person if you descredited their entity for being snowflake bullshit, but in truth their entity was real.
Personally I doubt anyone is actually one of those made up genders, but if even one person out there genuinely identifies as an attack helicopter then they deserve support and validation.
>>6542925
But don't you think that's a dis-service to us and themselves? If they go around saying they are 'otherkin' and grow into adulthood believing this, how are they going to be a functional member of society?
I get what you're saying, but why should we care about their feelings when the rest of the world sure as well won't.
In reality, I wouldn't go on a tangent about how 'retarded and wrong you are you fucking retarded autist', but in theory, I think it's ethically wrong to indulge fantasies.
>>6542867
hey, tranny who considers myself kinda non binary here
im male born and experience strong gender dysphoria, but rather than wanting to look like a woman i want to look androgynous
biologically if you consider gender identity to be caused by prenatal hormones, identities ranging from male to female make sense based on your exposure to male/female hormones. non binary people might be exposed to an equal amount of both, or something like that.
anything outside of a male-female spectrum is impossible as there are only male and female hormones
>>6542914
>being factually wrong on the internet
Intersex is a thing that exists. Gender is not a binary. Certain animals might give that illusion, and male and female are most definitely a massive majority, but there are other genders, and many of the animals we classify as male or female do not even remotely fit into the human definitions of such.
Even if we're talking about humans only, there are still dozens of intersex conditions with all their variations and unique occurances that gender is effectively a spectrum. It may be heavily magnetized to the edges, but it's still a spectrum.
>>6542925
And don't you think it's a worrying trend? Of course everyone wants to be unique and special in this day and age, but is saying something you're not, although you may believe it in your heart of hearts, the right way to raise a generation of people?
>>6542867
Okay, let's simplify. Wait for january and go to a central to east european country. As soon as it starts raining it will crystallize in air. You have to have a cool surface to catch these crystals. Now find one that is different from all the others. There, you can research a special snowflake first hand!
>>6542941
Telling them that they're wrong isn't going to make them change their mind.
Besides, you wouldn't pick up rocks and start stoning someone to death just because the rest of the world was going to do it anyway. Why is it any different with hatred?
>>6542947
Intersex people still identify as one or the other and you're still on one of two sides on the spectrum that is male or female.
>>6542960
You're right, I agree, the whole 'leave people better than the way you found them' is how I (and hopefully many others) want to live my life. I guess we got sidetracked from my original post. Basically I was just asking about the legitimacy of the somewhat legitimate sexual identities, rather than identifying as an 'heliodemiandroic un-girl'
>>6542961
this isn't always true
there are 2 human models, male and female, but plenty of humans exist that don't match one model or the other
- chromosomes (XX, XY, or another variation)
- testosterone and estrogen levels
- type of gonads (testes, ovaries, or a combination of the two)
- type of genitals (penis, vagina, or something indeterminate and in between)
- bone structure (typical male, typical female, in between)
- self identity (male, female, in between)
>>6542951
>Of course everyone wants to be unique and special in this day and age
That's not a new trend in any way. People have always wanted to be special, people will always want to be special. The only thing that changes is how people go about trying to be special.
In this case, lying about themselves to get attention for being something they're not is also not new at all. People have been doing it for thousands of years and it will never stop. It doesn't matter what anyone does.
>>6542960
But actually, to counter your argument, just me telling them they're wrong isn't going to work, obviously, but I think trying to gain an understanding and rationally talking it out with them may allow them to see avenues of thought they may not have realised.
>>6542973
And I did, I don't have anything against transexuals. I understand it's a legitimate thing and I fully sympathise.
Mind if I hear your story? I would love to learn more :)
>>6542971
And no, you're right, I misphrased. And damn you, you nihilist!!! ;)
>>6542960
I actually managed to have a polite but logical conversation with a friend, challenging them why they said they were "agender". Turned out it was because, they didn't want to be forced into a stereotypical gender role, I helped them to realize the difference between transsexuality and feelings about stereotypes, they no longer call themselves agender. It's possible to convince someone, but you need to be polite about it and try and understand their feelings and where they're coming from. But I would assume that's the thing for most special snowflakes, that they just don't like being told to do stereotypical male/female things.
Last question from the OP, and also thank you to everyone for indulging this teenage aussie shitposter at 2am, I enjoyed and learned a lot.
Is there an official list of genuine sexual and gender identities that has been sanctioned by the LGBT communities?
>>6542982
it's pretty much the same as any other tranny, just my ideal presentation is having an androgynous name and body
- born male
- around puberty, started having strong feelings of disgust, hatred, and disassociation towards my male features, as well as general depression and anxiety
- suicide attempt, ended up in the ER, while i was there they asked lots of questions and i told them everything, they told me i might be transgender and arranged for me to meet a gender therapist once i was recovered and mentally stable
- meet the gender therapist, it's nice to finally know that this is a real thing and im not the only one
- see a psychologist for evaluation
- get prescribed testosterone blockers
- start seeing a counselor on a regular basis
- a little happier with my body at this point but it's not quite enough
- more visits to the gender clinic, eventually prescribed a low dose of estrogen
- pretty happy with my body now, and not depressed
just wanted to make sure you read since im relevant to the subject line, it IS biologically possible to be non binary within a male-female range, but things like demiquazohelicopterwolfgender are either:
- made up for attention
- an attempt to describe their personalities, which has nothing to do with gender identity
or both.
>>6543021
Very interesting, thank you for sharing! I've read that post-transition oftentimes trans still feel uncomfortable in their body. Do you feel like that at all? I believe it was mainly due to the negative reception of family and friends that caused this, so i'm not sure, but as long as you're happy, that's awesome!
>>6543006
- gay (and lesbian too if you want to say there should be different words)
- bisexual: attracted to men and women
- pansexual: attracted to people (including mtf and ftm), not bodies
some people debate whether this is legitimate or not, but I've met a couple pansexual people that described their attraction to be like this, basically they like people based on personality and don't care what's in their pants or what they look like, whereas a bisexual person is specifically attracted to the bodies of both men and women, but not necessarily trans people
- transsexual: body dysphoria, and a desire to change the gendered aspects of your body (legitimate identities: man, woman, in between)
- intersex: not an orientation or identity, but usually part of the list. being born with a body that is not fully male or female in some way.
>>6543026
i feel comfortable with my body, but i also have support from my family and friends now
>>6543042
That's awesome, thanks for sharing, and good luck to you! I'm going to bed now, thank you everyone who added to the discussion, have a wonderful week!
>>6543051
you too, goodnight
>>6543042
So what are pansexuals masturbating to? People smiling and saying nice things? Seriously that doesn't sound like a sexuality, everyone of us is attracted to certain types of personalities, nothing to create an own word for.
>>6542867
Dysphoric nonbinary (?) here.
I like it as an umbrella term for anyone who's unsure or "between the boundaries" of male and female. It's a good thing to have some grey areas, mostly so people can question as easily as possible, and also because I think some people naturally fall there wrt looks/social indicators.
Personally, I did some transitioning before I knew I was trans at all. Spent time lowering my voice, that kind of thing. Currently I'm binding -- trying to decide if I want T.
I'm pretty happy now that I look pretty much like a cis teenage boy. But enough of my "woman" leaks through that people look at me weird whenever I speak too high, or act too feminine. I think people think I'm a really campy fag or something.
>>6543026
>I've read that post-transition oftentimes trans still feel uncomfortable in their body. I believe it was mainly due to the negative reception of family and friends that caused this
Not really. Gender dysphoria is pretty weird, a lot of it has to do with self-image/your mental map of your body. During puberty I was stressed, pulling out my hair because I had to wear skirts to school. Over time I changed my presentation to one I felt was more authentic, one that came naturally rather than being a pathetic attempt to conform. And that helps a lot with feeling better in your skin, even if everyone else is telling you you're a freak. There's not an automatic revulsion to your body anymore.
>>6543071
im not sure actually, that's why i listed it there as debatable
i have a friend that says they're pansexual though, i could ask
maybe they get turned on by imagery of sexual acts, regardless of the bodies involved but just the idea of sex?
>>6543089
But there are only two m8, as well as there are only two genders.
> disgusted by myself for knowing the difference between gender and sex
>>6543113
sexes: male, female
gender: male, female
mtfs: sex = male ; gender = female
ftms: sex = female ; gender = male
being attracted to mtfs and/or ftms: fetish
>>6543127
if i had dysphoria before transitioning and feel and present myself as androgynous, what's my gender?
>>6543164
as in, i transitioned into androgyny
>>6543164
What hormones are you taking/making
>>6543194
lol ok
>>6543198
cypro and low dose estradiol, im smooth and kinda feminine to the point where i don't pass as male or female in public
i would never want to be more feminine than i am or to have breasts, nor would i ever want to be more masculine
>>6543164
>what's my gender?
The gender people suspect you to be I guess.
>>6543268
i regularly get ma'am, oh, um sorry, si-, um, yes ma-... can i take your order?
>>6542867
Ftm who used to identify as nb. For me, it was a combination of being in denial and the overly accepting community on tumblr. The second I started questioning, people threw all these terms at me and I latched on to an identity that allowed me to be flexible and not disappoint the people around me. After a year of self reflection (and no tumblr), I realized it was bullshit and started going full boy. I think most of these people want the "trans" status that's so praised in that community without the horrifying and lonely reality of BEING trans. There's probably a mix of trans kids in denial and cis people wanting to be special snowflakes within the nb community.
>>6543203
Ur a femboy.
There are literally only two genders. It is almost ironic that people like myself and many other actual transgender individuals completely agree on this. You'd think we were all straight white males
>>6542867
I don't know about 'new genders' but Non-binary is pretty easy to understand.
You understand Trans right? It's exactly the same as that, except you have no 'destination' gender.
You still feel dysphoria and like you're in the wrong gender with the wrong body, but you're not striving to be the other gender. There's no feeling of 'that is the gender I identify as', it's just 'I don't identify as the gender I am'.
It's not male or female, it's Non-binary.
You opened with a false dichotomy ('special snowflake'/'legitimate medical studies'.) It's worth your time to think about why it's a false dichotomy.
Also, read this:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/05/01/different-dysphorias-and-esoteric-embodiments/#comment-27517
>>6542867
non-binary isnt called non-binary in other cultures.
western views on gender is pretty much rampant globally unless you do your research.
try looking up intersex, two-spirit, and "third gender".
bound to be other sources too if you want to find them
>>6544161
>There are literally only two genders.
this is a fallacy akin to thinking there are only two colors: black and white.
life is a continuum of gradation. discrete polarities are naive simplification. nothing more.
>>6542925
>If they identify as a heliodemiandroic un-girl, and they're just making shit up for attention, what does it cost you to just indulge them? Nothing
The real problem is they expect expect you to play along with their special snowflake identities and confirm them/give them lots of attention or get some snowflake treatment, it's not just an informed trait but something the person in question will shove in your face constantly. It's obnoxious.
>genuinely identifies as an attack helicopter then they deserve support and validation
>I have to give someone support and validation for their helicopter gender
>AKA give them extra attention and attention whoring needless validation
kek
>>6543071
The whole concept of 'sexuality' is a pretty nebulous concept. Some people are only attracted to whips and ballgags, but we don't assign their brain a special BDSMsexualism do we? or take away someones straight or gay status based on not liking certain people of the sex they're attracted to.
>>6544161
There aren't any genders really. People will refute me on this but gender isn't biological, it's how we categorize people and their behavior in society and how we assign their public identities. It's pretty arbitrary.
>>6547777
Why does that NEED a word for it just because you don't fit with an already hard-lined binary that not everyone can measure up to?
That's like needing to give a term for the hairstyle bald people use and talking about bald tips, bald hairdye, and different strivings of non-hair. It's all bald.
>>6555580
>Some people are only attracted to whips and ballgags
Not really, not any more than there are people who're attracted to cars.
That's something else, I think. BDSM.
My buddy likes girl's asses, but he's not anal-sexual. He's just a straight guy with an anal fetish.
>>6555162
Also color is a conception of the human mind. There are infinite colors including wavelengths human perception cannot perceive.
>>6555614
Because in that case you're assuming that there is a fixed male and female gender.
I don't know if that's true.
What is the male gender all about? Female? Is this true across multiple cultures?
What about those who deviate?
>>6555616
People aren't sexually attracted to cars.
But they are leather, fat, latex candles and fat.
>He's just a straight guy with an anal fetish.
Is the only qualification for being straight or gay 'would have real life physical sexual relations with person of that gender?'
Otherwise I'm an asexual guy with a fetish for men and woman.
The whole concept of a fetish just seems to be an excuse to leverage out anything that doesn't conform to the idea that people are exclusively attracted to only two sexes.
>>6555629
I believe gender is pretty fixed. Fixed in society and how people define it.
Therefore non-binary should be fixed as well, fixed in that you don't identify with a gender common to your culture. But needing to invent a whole special spectrum of agender and asexuality classifications opens up a can of worms just about as nuanced and trivial as having 2 genders does. You've ruined the entire point of having a 'nongender' option by just making that, itself, another gender.
Eventually we'll need people who identify as Non-Binary++ or Non-Spectrum just to clarify they don't feel suited for the Non-Binary classification.
>>6555636
>People aren't sexually attracted to cars.
My point exactly. (Not unless they're autistic or some shit)
>But they are leather, fat, latex candles and fat.
No, they're not. Someone who mostly wants to do BDSM stuff exclusively is not going to not see a difference whether he does it to a man or woman. He's likely to have a preference, unless he's bi, and I doubt he's think the same of an 80 year old and a 20 year old.
BDSM is just something you like to do, how you have sex, not who you have sex with, what you're attracted to.
>Is the only qualification for being straight or gay 'would have real life physical sexual relations with person of that gender?'
Yes, generally.
>Otherwise I'm an asexual guy with a fetish for men and woman.
I mean, you'd have to tell me what gets you aroused.
>The whole concept of a fetish just seems to be an excuse to leverage out anything that doesn't conform to the idea that people are exclusively attracted to only two sexes.
I'm using it in a casual sense, pretty fuck a kink.
Again, if their partner was happy to oblige, my buddy is exclusively into anal sex. That's the kind of porn he watches even.
Even so, it's more than just the ass. He's not gonna fuck a dude in the ass, just because he likes anal. He's straight with an anal fetish.
>>6555675
> Someone who mostly wants to do BDSM stuff exclusively is not going to not see a difference whether he does it to a man or woman.
Do you actually believe this? You clearly don't understand the specific distinctions between people and their tastes if you think someone into BDSM is going to just do it any gender exclusively.
>He's likely to have a preference, unless he's bi
The point is these 'fetishes' aren't always restrained by the same principles of sexuality as usual. It's easy to imagine a woman getting hot and bothered over having woman tie each other up, but have no interest in sexing woman personally. Or a person enjoying wanting their BDSM to come from a dominating woman, but leaning towards a homosexual orientation. It's pretty arbitrary, yet unique to each individual.
>how you have sex, not who you have sex with, what you're attracted to.
It's something that get people off. Some people get off with woman or men, others with BDSM or whatever their fetish is, or both. It's not always so unified, cut and clean.
>I mean, you'd have to tell me what gets you aroused.
Hot butch woman. Girly woman. Pretty blond charismatic twinks. Lesbians. Yaoi. Imagining I'm a Princess rescued by a handsome prince.
From this you might instantly just assume "Oh he's obviously Bi or Pan then."
But I have no interest in sex with a man, so..
>He's not gonna fuck a dude in the ass, just because he likes anal. He's straight with an anal fetish.
That's him, and like I said it's unique with each person. I'd love to be a princess ravaged by a knight or flirt with a cute dandy twink.
But I don't want a dick up my ass or to engage in sweaty homosexual sex or hook up with dudes in bars. I'm a Bi/Pan withOUT a gay/anal fetish, but that cannot be true in those exact words because we don't in our language a concept of an anti-fetish.
Just like how we don't have a word if a straight person intentionally disowns partners or hair colors from their sexuality.
>>6555720
>Or a person enjoying wanting their BDSM to come from a dominating woman, but leaning towards a homosexual orientation. It's pretty arbitrary, yet unique to each individual.
You're into BDSM. Orientation is who you're having sex with. (Or would like to.)
You can't have sex with an act.
>Some people get off with woman or men, others with BDSM or whatever their fetish is, or both. It's not always so unified, cut and clean.
Hence the distinction between orientation and kink.
>But I have no interest in sex with a man, so..
So, you're bi and don't want to take it that far with a dude. I don't see what's so hard about this.
>That's him, and like I said it's unique with each person. I'd love to be a princess ravaged by a knight or flirt with a cute dandy twink.
It's called bisexual.
>I'm a Bi/Pan withOUT a gay/anal fetish, but that cannot be true in those exact words because we don't in our language a concept of an anti-fetish.
You do realize there are tons of gay dudes out there who DON'T have anal sex, right? That's not weird.
>Just like how we don't have a word if a straight person intentionally disowns partners or hair colors from their sexuality.
What even?
Do you mean people who like one hair color more? Or people do don't date blondes?
>>6555720
More specifically, I might be classified as Autogynephiliac with gay tendencies (Despite preferring woman), but since we categorize Autogynephilia as a mental illness just like we used to homosexuality that doesn't make much sense to have Autogynephilia be my sexuality does it?
Like I said it's all arbitrary. Our language system cannot account for the complexities in human sexuality other than try to assume people fall under gay, straight or an 'Other' category as a neat clean sweep.
