Please, help a cis guy out.
I tried, but I just can't take transgender people seriously. Obviously I won't be an asshole and call one by the wrong name/pronoun, but when I'm not around them I can't help but find this mentality silly and confusing. Let me explain:
First, I don't understand why is it so hard to just call biological males men, and biological females women. They're just definitions, they shouldn't mean anything other than state what chromossomes do you carry (and the body traits that come with it).
But ok, say that "man" and "woman" are just a social construct. At first I didn't understand this very well, but then I realized this makes sense, since we could say that a "man" is someone who abides with a set of rules and standards imposed by the society over the ages. If a male doesn't act upon these rules (only wears feminine clothing, has a soft voice, likes girly stuff, etc) he could be considered a woman.
I though I had finally gotten it! If it was this simple, everything would have been solved. Then I learned about tomboy trans women. Biological males who identify as female, but don't have typically feminine characteristics, and because of this struggle to be taken seriously, since they are often recognized as men.
So, if a "woman" is not something defined by their genitalia/chromossomes, nor their tastes, nor their behavior, then what is it? If I can dress "like a man", act "like a man" and say that I'm a woman, what the hell is a man and a woman? The "I identify as an Attack Helicopter" joke may look stupid for you, but it's exactly how I see this. It's like saying that is right to call a chocolate chip cookie "cracker" just because the package said it was a cracker.
I'm probably tormented by this just because I don't have any transgender friends/relatives, so I'd love if someone here came with a good explanation to clear my doubts.
BTW, notice that I dislike gender roles and I'm all for people being free with their choice of living, I just don't get people changing the meaning of words at their own will and expecting people to follow their new "rules" even when they make no sense. It just makes unnecessary confusion.
And yes, I know the difference between sex and gender.
watch an episode of Ru Paul's drag race, or doll yourself up and see how addictively fun it is. Trans is a mental illness. We need more FEMBOYS in this world and less trannies.
You got man bones, bitch. You a MAN. But it's so fun, it's too fun. You know why people get the lisp? Why gay men turn into sluts? Drag. Drag is the answer. Watch that.
People become transgender because they're truly trans ( less than 1% of the time.... ), and 99% they do it because, admit it you love acting and looking like a woman.. ie drag.
>>5871968
But it's different. If it's just for fun, everyone knows and will tell that it's a dude under all that makeup.
But If I call a MtF trans a dude, and use "he" when refering to him (even when it clearly shows masculine traits), some people will go all "SHE'S A WOMAN YOU HOMOPHOBIC PRICK. NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE PUSSIES. CHECK YOU PRIVILEGE"
>>5871959
I think you are misunderstanding what we want, OP. I see what you are saying, that you think is someone is trying to look female or male they should be recognized as such.
But there is a difference between wanting to LOOK like a female/male, and wanting to BE one.
Let me explain,
Take me, for example. I'm mtf. Though I prefer effeminate apparel, I don't want to just wear girly clothes. I want to essentially be a girl in the eyes of all who see me, no matter what I wear.
If a cis girl walked around in guy clothes, you might think she's a dyke, but you'd still think she's a girl.
So, we want to be able to do the same thing, and still be referred to by our preferred pronouns.
Now, I do see the glaring issue with this.
>What if they don't pass
Well, the polite thing to do at that point is to ask, I guess. I don't know what else to tell you, OP.
Also, about the gender roles:
Most trans people actually aren't against gender roles. If anything, we adhere to them more, to feel more like the gender we identify with. Not saying all trans people do this, but I certainly do, and as far as I'm aware many others do as well.
>>5872000
well yeah, but it becomes different over time. I'm saying that this, drag, plus an oversexualized society, uhh.. and a bunch of other things.
these things do not create a trans person, but they are truly the causes when you look down to it. Childhood experiences and upbringing obviously always play a huge role as well. But my point is if you want to understand it, live it, and if you don't want to live it, watch it. On Ru Paul's drag race on NBC sundays at 7pm.
>>5872008
Yes, of course if I see a girl in guy clothes, if it has the body/face of a girl, I will assume it is a girl, that's the point I was trying to make.
>I want to essentially be a girl in the eyes of all who see me, no matter what I wear.
So, that's my doubt: what exactly makes you a girl, and would make you a girl in the eyes of all who see you?
>>5871959
shut up cracker
>>5872000
You should call a mtf a dude and use "he" if he looks masculine, and a woman and use "she" if she looks feminine. Simple as that.
>>5872040
Didn't you read the part about tomboy MtFs? Guys who actually look masculine (like tomboy girls), but want to be recognized as girls.
>>5872035
>what exactly makes you a girl, and would make you a girl in the eyes of all who see you?
One such as I would hope that all of the time effort, and medical/hormonal treatment we go through would work and that we would be able to walk in public without even raising an eyebrow.
Point being, I'm trying my hardest to look like a girl so that you never even raise the question in your mind to begin with.
When you look at me, I would want you to see me as I feel that I am, not as I was born.
Again, I know that it isn't that easy, and not all of us pass. For those that don't, again, the polite thing to do would be to just treat them like they do (though I understand why you'd have an issue with that)
>>5872051
>tomboy MtFs
You mean men?
>>5872057
So, in the end, it all comes down to a desired physical appearence? Not a "state of mind" or something like this? Does this mean that all transgender people actually seek/want hormone therapy?
>>5872085
*hormone treatment
>>5871959
Gender is so complicated that I don't even think it can be explained like you want it. And honestly, it doesn't need to be.
Before civilized society, there were only gender rolls because it was necessary for survival. One man could impregnate many women and keep the race from extinction, but a woman could only carry one baby at a time. Thus, the women were protected while the men did dangerous shit. Men were expendable.
Nowadays none of that shit matters. There's such a huge amount of humans that we couldn't possibly go extinct outside of a complete nuclear apocalypse. Basically it's no longer necessary to differentiate between men and women. Gender is useless.
So who cares if a biological male decides they're female, and who cares if they don't behave like a typical woman? That's what they've chosen to do, and it's not a big deal whatsoever.
tl;dr: gender is obsolete and it doesn't matter.
>>5872085
real transgender people want hormones while transtrenders don't seek hormone therapy at all because they are all straight women/men desperate for attention
>>5872085
Well, assuming you know that most trans people transition to treat gender dysphoria, yes, we all seek hormone therapy, so far as I am aware.
That, or we kill ourselves.
>>5871959
you never played along and called a man a childs father, even when he wasn't? it wasnt just easier to say hes the dad cuz he basically was and definitely was a father figure?
>>5872097
Sure, I agree. As I said, I'm all for people living how they want. And this is why I think it also shouldn't matter what pronouns are used to call someone. As long as it doesn't confuse anyone.
What I mean is, if the person appreciates if I call him/her by a pronoun different from its biological sex, I will call him/her by that, that is basic manners. But if I'm referring to him/her in third person, I may prefer to use the other one if I think it's easier to understand. This is more evident for agender people, that require us to use they/them.
A lot of you say its like body disphoria. So instead of talking through it just change them. because you can but someone that is 'ugly' you talk them through it and talk them out of facial reconstruction and breast implants and lipo. because it's not natural and you need to love you for you..not ab out to get all touchy......
>>5871959
>I though I had finally gotten it! If it was this simple, everything would have been solved. Then I learned about tomboy trans women. Biological males who identify as female, but don't have typically feminine characteristics, and because of this struggle to be taken seriously, since they are often recognized as men.
if they acted like men in every possible way, maybe--but here's the thing--tomboy girls are NOT male. if a cis girl acted like a tomboy, or was kinda masculine, would you immediately call her a man? especially if she wanted to be referred to as a girl, and got suicidal when people refused?
it's kind of a slippery slope, i know. it's impossible to say exactly how many "feminine" traits a trans woman has to have in order for her to be a "real" woman. if you ever meet someone who, in all seriousness, has no desire to express any kind of femininity whatsoever and willingly acts like a stereotypical dude but still wants to be called "she," THEN you might have an issue. but the thing is no one is like that (outside of tumblr, at least). you don't get to disrespect normal trans people just because of some hypothetical asshole.
>>5872149
>easier to understand
for whom? admit it, you're just too embarrassed to use people's preferred pronouns around your friends or whatever because they don't either. that's so slimy, you can't treat people one way to their face and then disrespect them for no reason behind their back.
>>5871959
As a cis-guy myself,
I've found it really really easy to get along with mtf girls. Many of the ones I've spoken to are down to earth and really easy going.
Now.. I'm sure people are going to jump all over for me for this, but I've only spoken to a total of "two" cool ftm dudes, the rest I've encountered are either MEAN or so totally insecure that you can't talk to them about anything without them getting triggered. It's always the butch dikes and the genderqueer SJW's
>>5872205
Well, for me, I'm not disrespecting. Would you prefer that I was an asshole to their face? As I said, I don't have any transgender friends, but I had, I'd probably act differently
Transgender is real.
Transgender people simply just want to affirm with how they feel and accepted for just that. Being who they are.
They go trough emotionalroller-coaster just to achieve it. Hrt, voice training, feminine image/masculine image (depending mtf or ftw)
>/Thrade
>>5872263
*...but IF if had...
(I wish I could edit posts)
>>5872106
Seriously I'm so sick of Transgenders saying "blah blah blah or we will kill our/my selves. that's' not even used as a fact Supposedly though it was never proven to be true but people long before That one dude and his girlfriend publicly said they were guys in girl bodies and vice versa nobody had that thought before but when someone said it as a joke almost the same way people start trends today after that though they were publicized by the news police and people first jumped on the bandwagon as supporters and for people who had a dysphonia about bodies and they suffered deeply because they would brood then it lead to identity crisis even today people *I* have identity crisis where I don't know who I am *mentally* and I don't know my ppurpose in life and lot of people have that. And living in a time where there isn't those kinds of studies on personality and appearance disorders so nobody had a name for it and when people me a potential claim like that and it can be closly related to the separate problem you have that's when theories are made like religion......-Crops are dying There's a drought and little timmy down the path died from a something they don't know and a guy comes up and says there is this guy or idea that will clear all this pain away if you follow him and you do them a week later you get a little rain. then the guy come back and is like he appreciates this keep worshipping him and you get more you will do it because you're willing to try every to ease your pain or discomfort. so transgender was given and today it's less about body dysphoria it's now technically a trend and there are people who will admit to not having transgender issues such as dysphoric thoughts they will argue you don't need to have them to be transgender that is bugging me 'fixing' the body because you think you will LOOK better as a girl and vice versa. We can look deeper why we have those thoughts so psychologist can find something. For all with body dysphoria.
>>5872388
Please learn how to english
>>5872266
I JUST POSTED KNOWN FACTS NO ONE WILL ACCEPT BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO BE WRONG......TRANGENER ISN'T THE PROBLEM. It's not the source it is at its best a subcategory.It is really body disphoria the same as a person believing they are ugly and they want to change it. and it has to do with all the association with success and beauty. No one is knocking their struggle but the cause.Talking about having a girls mind but a boys body isn't a mutation because the genes and body doesn't control consciousness so the mind would have adapted to the body that its has you don't know that you are a guy and understand he role of a guy until you can understand our society. you are brought up by the gender that your parents saw on you. You couldn't define the sexes until your parents told you those roles. if the definition of male and female were switched you wouldn't know. just like knowledge of good and evil. wild animal don't even have sex crisis they can be homosexuals but not transgender they can process the possibility of being some you obviously are that's not a genetic mutation
>>5872443
I ken inglesh beter den yu...I'
m just rushing
>>5872447
check your privilege, cis scum
>>5872420
I don't expect you to read only those that care about this thread.....and that can read...and comprehend....so no definitely not expecting.
>>5872468
.oh I know but technically speaking like in that way is still a language. It is against the law restrict use of certain languages without restricting all of them.... but ok
Btw cis or scum are not yet words fuck boii
PLz geav mii b& ef yu w1t. I loav yuu iny waii
>>5872481
Let me so down for you before I get banned by the fuck tard up there. I hate when transgenders say, "give us what we want or we will kill ourselves"
>>5872504
normally i hate when people say this but dude...what the hell are you on
>>5872512
>banned
Haha, good one. Moderation is painfully nonexistent on this board. People freely admit to being underage and post NSFW pics here constantly without a ban.
>>5872504
Did you forget your Ritalin today?
>>587251'
Dude like honestly I have a type of dyslexia and I'm Adhd plus my Adderall is wearing off so I'm not really coherent.. I know.
>>5871959
Here's an idea OP:
Call them what you think they are, if they correct you call them whatever they want to be called.
It's just a decent thing to do as a human being to be respectful.
Im still here love
>>587251'
Dude like honestly I have a type of dyslexia and I'm Adhd plus my Adderall is wearing off so I'm not really coherent.. I know.
>>5872532
Yes, I forgot my Adderall* but yeah I am also dyslexic. I'm not even sure if you will understand this one....but I'm taking my time.
>>5872626
I was banned. I wasn't aware that post would still be there. Simple mistake.
>>5872634
are you legitimately retarded?
Jesus, I just love these new age wanna-be trolls they just feed off of each others comments. Can't even form independent vantage points. My comments might not be Coherent or comprehensible , but at least they are independent.
>>5872647
Bait taken
lulz
But no not retarded legitimately a lot of things. But I do like how every one is jumping down my throat, when I haven't even said anything Incorrect.
OMFG Dude, read my shit and understand before you type another comment responding
I am not drunk high or anything. I came to this thread to post some research that I have done on transgenderism, and I wanted feedback on it but it's hard for you guys to give me feed back if you can't understand what I typed. Right?
>>5872085
>physical appearence? Not a "state of mind"
cis male here, i clearly don´t know how a trans person actually feel, but i think the dichotomy body and mind is what is giving you troubles understanding the issue, i think both body and mind play an important rol in how a trans person feel about their identity
maybe what you don´t get why trans people find scoial construct like boyish and girly traits important, but no one really knows how social construct works, no trans people, no cis people, no philospher or scientist, they are a mistery we just live with them are try to build an ego while we negotiate with those social constructs, like the principia individuationis of schopenhauer
that´s my take on the issue, sorry for my bad english
Every time I reply to one comment about me I, in return , respond back and then some one else says something about it thinking that I am talking to them.
If you guys/girls would check who I am responding to then it would be easier and save me the headache.
>>5872713
Then include the post number you're replying to, you glorious retard.
Now this whole fucking time I've been here I have been looking for a serious person to shed some light on a piece of evidence on the state of transgenderism. and I need an ACTUAL, open minded, transgender to respond. Please, and I say this as nicely as I can, Shut the Fuck Up if you don't have a productive thing to say to me. If not speak to some one else because I'm looking for something important. K?....Thanks.
>>5871959
Male/female isn't decided by chromosomes, people don't even know what it's decided by. Most likely, you should go on hormones, since that is what decides the sex characteristics, and pretty much decides the sex.
In which case, you're being illogical with your "why is it so hard to just call biological males men" is stupid, since a trans woman wouldn't be a biological male.
I'm guessing you have autism, and is stuck on essentialism, i.e. a house will always be a tree (several trees), because it was made out of wood, and wood comes from a tree.
All animals, including humans, have gender identities, that's how you know how to behave, sexually and a bit socially.
Females following an alpha male, a beta male knowing his place etc. Or a male bird dancing to attract females, which would have required a lot of imagination if it weren't for that it's "in-born" knowledge.
Pretty simple stuff, if you can in any way think critically.
>>5872722
LIke this incredible fuck boii
Why would I select a post number when I am talking to everyone who keeps trying to correct me? Please answer that correctly I and I will wired you bit coins from my Tor browser right now I swear on everything.
>>5872735
I have a Comment and a Question though. That is if I can ask without everyone being grammar Nazis and telling me I forgot a comma, or didn't conjugate my subject verb phrase correctly.
Like you said all animals have gender identities.
true.
But it isn't your genetic make up that deice how to behave in some cases and little to none socially.
how I went about it OP is by just accepting that gender identity is a real thing. there's plenty of evidence that is supportive that gender identity is real and that XY/reproductively male people can develop a female gender identity
then after a while of interacting with trans people, it just kind of clicked that these are men and women. it was a kind of switch of instincts.
it'd be like if youre consciousness got transported, in its present form and unaltered, to a robot body. are you no longer human? you have an identity and psyche of a human, but your body is not human. why does that make you not human? i think most rational and empathetic people would agree you're a human and welcome among humans
>>5872388
Whoa, this is the reply I wake up to, wew lad.
Well, I honestly tried reading through it, but please, if you are going to write a book, you need to segment it out into chapters.
If you want a proper response from me, you'll have to tell me what you meant by all that.
I am the type of individual who is willing to try to understand other's people's arguments, even if I don't agree with them. I am more than willing to hear you out and respond with my most respectful agreement or retort.
Now, analyzing how you wrote this, I can only come up with a few theories as to why it is as messy as it is. I can tell that it was emotionally drive, which is fine, some of my posts can be as well. I have a sneaking suspicion you may not have been sober at the time of writing, either that, or you have a disorder that impairs your ability to write. If the case is the latter, then I would recommend not posting here, as it would more than likely always result in situations like this.
Don't get me the wrong way. I am more than willing to understand, and even respect, your opinion on the matter of transgender depression and suicide, but I would kindly ask that you rephrase your argument so I can better read what you are trying to say,
>TL,DR
If you want my response to your argument, please rewrite it more legibly
>>5873198
Well, shit, even my grammar isn't as good as I thought. Here's a few corrections to my own post:
>other people's
>emotionally driven
Maybe I ought to consider not posting here as well :^)
