Concealable AK vs AR
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
>Not your average AR vs AK thread.
You are working overseas in contract protection role.
Pistol is not sufficient. Weather precludes multiple layers so no on body carry. Likely going with a 5.11 Select Carry backpack as it looks innocuous and allows very rapid draw (though alternative suggestions welcome).
You need a full power cartridge for taking on armored threats at close range, this rules out pistol cal systems.
AR with a LAW folding stock adds another step after drawing weapon to bring it into action.
Considering folding stock (which can be fired from open or closed position-the option to have the stock but not be compelled to deploy it is nice) AK, or straight up pistol AK, or 7.5" barrel AR pistol which will fit in the 5.11 backpack.
Cost is not a concern. Strongly considering Noveske Diplomat upper with pistol buffer in the 5.11 backpack, as thats's about as good a set up as I've found to date. The lack of stock bothers me, and I would prefer the option of some more barrel length in trade for a "deploy if possible but not imperative" stock.
What do the /k/ommandos say?
Pic vaguely related.
>>30568826
>You are working overseas in contract protection role.
No, you aren't.
Fuck off buzzfeed.
>>30568832
Hate to rain on your parade, but I'm writing this from Europe at the moment and am on the move again shortly. I've worked in Asia and carried locally made pistol cal platforms which were not adequate to the type of work I was doing. I'm here asking for a wider cross section of opinions than I will get asking colleagues who will all say "Get the Noveske" on name alone.
I've heard good things about the MM TNT GYM BAG.
It's designed by an Asian American they make good stuff.
>>30568865
It will fit an AK folder among other things.
>You need a full power cartridge for taking on armored threats at close range, this rules out pistol cal systems.
If it's soft body armor a man in your position should be able to get AP ammo for a pistol, if it's not than a short barreled ak/ar isn't going to penetrate anyway.
>>30568873
AK the choice long gun for manlets
>>30568890
Following that logic, wouldn't a man in his position be able to get 5.56/7.62x39 AP? I'm sure the latter would end up being cheaper than pistol caliber AP.
>>30568902
Hard armor is rated to stop intermediate AP ammo.
>>30568909
Depends on the rating system.
NIJ only mentions AP for IV level as far as I know.
>>30568865
>>30568873
Carry space is great, no question, the option for full length barrel is a plus, but there's a trade off. Speed on the draw concerns me, which is the main selling point on the 5.11. Three motions to access with the 5.11- rotate back across shoulder, pull down zipper, draw. I doubt the speed of draw is there with the MM bag.
Also, the gym bag looks like what it is - a gym bag or photographer's gear bag. I could get away with it in some situations but its likely to stick out in others.
>>30568909
How many people do you expect to walk around in battle rattle? Ceramic can't take multiple shots and protect, polyethylene doesn't stop AP.
>>30568857
Ok I apologize.
What are your buying options, what are the legal obstacles, and how does your employer deal with it, after that how do they treat you and your budget report?
>>30568826
M2 HMG.
>2016
>assault rifles
lol look at this limpwristed faggot who doesn't work out, look at him and laugh
I would think the short barrel on AR would hurt your AP capabilities.
So, pick the AK.
Or use blackout.
But you still get a stock with an AK
So pick the AK.
>>30568909
If Hard armor is rated to stop intermediate ap, why does it exist at all?
M92S. Civilian semi-auto version of the Rk95TP.
>>30568917
You're right but still, i wouldn't expect level III to be penetrated from a short barreled 5.56 regardless of the loading.
>>30568921
>How many people do you expect to walk around in battle rattle?
I wouldn't expect many which is why i wouldn't go to the trouble of concealing an ar-15 which may not even have the punch to do the job if i were in the sort of situation that op imagines himself in.
>>30568890
>>30568902
Ubiquity of cartridge is a big plus. You don't raise eyebrows in foreign places procuring 7.62x39 (steel core Norinco) or 5.56 (green tip). Asking for exotics in pistol cals raises eyebrows.
>>30568909
I'd be surprised to run up against plate.
>>30568918
If you use a short barreled rifle in the GYM bag with the strap hiked up you can literally have your hand on the pistol grip of your rifle while it is still in the bag. Draw time is only an issue with full length barrels.
>>30568944
Because ceramics weaken and shatter with every additional hit they receive. First round will stop, but the second may very well go through, third has an even higher chance and so forth. Cheap ceramics can only reliably stop a single round.
>>30568918
>A gym bag will stick out but a high speed molle covered pack that locals only seen in movies is just what I need.
>>30568933
We have arrangements which allow us to go to a particular local armory and indicate what we want if we're talking base platform. Money changes hands higher up and that's not my concern. We have fairly good access, put it that way.
If I want, for example, the Noveske upper, I need to indicate that in advance, someone handles ITAR and it'll be waiting when I get there.
Yes, I will pay for whatever I get which isn't base, via a deduction later.
>>30568978
If you go take a look at the select carry sling pack, it looks like a messenger's single stap cross body pack. Meant to be covert. No molle visible unless the bag is open and the weapon is coming out to play.
>>30568955
So a hand on the weapon which is now not visible with the bag being carried at an unusual angle in order to draw? Kinda lets people know something's up...
>>30569014
I see, it will catch some eyes though, probably can't find it in a local market.
And you'll look like trouble either way if you're armed security on alert.
>>30568942
This is kinda the way I'm going.
>>30569035
Being a foreigner means having unusual gear is fine. Just nothing that broadcasts that I'm armed is the name of the game.
As far as being armed security and not sticking out, you'd be surprised what you can do with attitude, haircut and not rocking a pair of Oakley Gascans or anything marked Underarmor.
>>30569063
If you're in a western country get an underfold AKM with rails and have them bankroll optics.
There really isn't an AR option for you outside of purpose built suppressed .300blk AR's, and that will cost more than the AK option.
>>30568944
The last generation of AP ammo was cold war era designed for steel plates and first gen ceramics. That is why Esapis then Xsapis came on line to defeat the newer production ammo like SLAP.
>>30568826
AK-104.
>short but still retains the same performance of a fullsize AK
>mag commonality over say a 5.45 gun
>folding stock does not require to be extended in order for the weapon to function
>7.62x39 goes through material a bit better than 5.56 or 5.45
If money was truly not an object I would put on the following
>Ultimak rail
>US Palm grip
>Elftmann AK trigger
>QD sling mount with a Haley D3 sling
>M300 Scout Light
>Aimpoint T1
>PEQ if NODs are used
why not go with KAC PDW?
I mean apart from it being a special snow flake gun, it fits your needs from what I understand. And then at that, one of these bad boys with the stock folded fits into your garden variety jansport backpacks, super low key
>>30569169
Mainly because that ammo will not be obtainable in country.
>>30568826
deal with more length or go with the AK
>>30569117
AK-104 with Zenit furniture and a T2 + PEQ15 and a M300 scout light is my dream setup
>>30569117
>>30569328
>>30568918
>>30569029
You wouldn't stroll around the market with your hand on the gun. I don't know about your experiences but rarely do things go completely 0-60. Every time I have been shot at there has been some kind of indications that something was up. Anyways, I've used sling-style bags before and I find that they are awkward as fuck. Here are some problems I have encountered, your experience may vary.
1) it's a single strap design and sticks out regardless of looking tactical or not.
2) Heavy objects on a single strap fucks with your back.
3) Rarely are they as easy to rotate to the front as advertised.
4) if you have them loose enough to rotate, they flop all over the place.
5) Replacing the rifle back in the pack/sling is difficult and/or impossible if you have any other gear in the backpack, your gear adds compression to the hidden pocket the weapon is in.
You seem dead set on the pack you already favor, so I don't think I'm going to convince you to pick something else.
If you do have such choice in weapons, may I suggest buying the 5.11 you're going to buy anyways, AND the TNT GYM bag. It's great to have as a generic duffel bag when you aren't using it to conceal a long gun.
I'd rather not end up arguing this as zero-sum game, different environments (geography, culturally, legally) will have different advantages/disadvantages for gear.
>>30569349
You and I seem to be on a similar wavelength so I am taking on board what you're saying.
Agree 100% that its never a case of things going bad in a hearbeat. However, the people we have the pleasure of working with this time around want as minimal a footprint before things get unpleasant as possible.
I'm coming around to the TNT. Its going to be warm to hot and the dress code is corporate, we're trying to not look like DIGPRO.
>>30569236
Not gonna fly unless you can show me that in a more business casual style than camo.
>>30569242
I almost certainly will, now.
>>30568826
>LAW folding stock
>Able to fire AR with stock folded
wat?
>>30568826
I advise a Draco M92 or a Galil Micro. Both with folding stocks
>>30569349
>>30568873
So I'm coming around to this thing. If things get dicey, at close to intermediate range, how much am I losing with the Noveske (again, the Diplomat in pistol config coming out of the 5.11 is what two others have settled on)? I'm experienced with the AR and AK platforms but know little about pistol performance in either, though if I'm going with a pistol length AR, I'd trust Noveske to have the DI gas sustem under control.
I get the impression I'm measurably better off as far as performance going with a sidefolder AK, or am I wrong?
>>30570124
I specifically said my concern with the LAW adaptor is that it would necessitate me unfolding and locking the stock before I can get it into the fight. Not the same usdue with an AK folder.
>>30568826
>Full power cartridge
Your looking at the wrong rifles.
>>30570171
>I'm experienced with the AR and AK platforms but know little about pistol performance in either
Research the ballistic performances online from the desired barrel lengths. If you are gonna go for 5.56, I suggest to use heavier loadings than 55 and 62gr as performance fall flat from barrel lengths less than 14.5 inches. 77gr is a recommended loading to go with
>>30570149
Assuming I have access to either of those exact models, why, and what carry system?
>>30570181
Oh. To be honest, that seems like a disadvantage. There are higher quality kalashnikov variants that can perform similar to an AR in terms of accuracy.
>>30568826
Get an AKS-74u.
Folding stock shorty AK-74.
No buffer tube problems so it can fire from a closed stock and foods to be nice and compact.
Regardless of what you get though, it'll always take a lot of space out of your backpack.
>>30570191
How will mk262 perform versus sift armor or soft skin vehicles out of a pistol barrel? Not a great deal of such info around for obvious reasons.
>>30568826
Micro Galil/Galil MAR
>>30570194
The M92 and Micro Galils are basically short carbines in compact recievers. Considering the fact that the Micro Galil is designed to be more compact for vehicle crews and SOF and as a PDW compared to the Galil SAR. A three point sling is advise, my personal recommendation is a Mamba. What will be your clothes attire?
Mcx
>>30570260
Strictly business casual. Maybe a sports jacket due to weather. I could possibly get away with a light linen suit.
>>30569117
>short but still retains the same performance of a fullsize AK
You call that short?
AK104 is still pretty beefy.
>>30570241
Ah, my mistake. I mistook Mk. 262 mod 1 for Mk.318 mod 1. There is also M855A1 considering it was designed to fix M855's shortcoming for failure to penetrate effectively against light environmental barriers.
>>30570354
Since you're still here, I strongly recommend the aac honey badger as a collapsible stock compact option. At least their folding stock style is quick to deploy. Alternatively have you considered a hk 33/53?
>>30570354
Considering the suits, and jacket options in business casual, you'll be able to conceal sbrs easily. Are the sportsman jacket made of leather or are they made of a much more looser material that doesn't profile the upper torso much?
>>30570446
>HK 53
Also considering this as another option if available with a sliding stock. Basically think of a collapsible and compact MP5 but chambered in 5.56
>>30570468
>>30570468
The downsides are difficulty mounting optics compared to AR, and not using stanag mags. Alternate to that, can you get a sig 550/552 op?
>>30570500
>difficulty mounting optics compared to AR
There are such thing as pictanny rail recievers, low profile scope mounts, and universal mounts, I think that's a problem solved. Stagnag adaptation, is solved through adapters
SCAR 16 or HK G36C
* folding stock
* can shoot when stock is folded
* short barrel versions available
* AR-15 mag compatible
>>30570552
None of those things are good things
>>30570446
I'm limited to what's available on the ground. AR type lowers, even if severely beaten, make good hosts and AKs abound. I suspect I'd be pushing my luck asking for an HK platform.
>>30570454
Leather is likely out regardless. Too "gopnik" looking. I envisage a dark blazer with chinos. Are you suggesting on body carry? If so, ehat rig for something along the lines of SBR? I had a rig in Asia for a local MAC 11 copy which worked fine under a suit. I just don't see doing it and being mobile and unobtrusive with something SBR sized.
>>30570334
>>30570446
I'm unsure about 300 blk availability where I'm headed, but would it be fair to say discourse on the Honeybadger vs the MCX warramts its own thread?
Assuming your going to be wearing the bag for long periods go backpack instead of sling. Sling backs get tiresome after a while because of all the weight in the bag pulling to one side. Try the Vertx gamut bag it looks like a regular backpack yet has a spacious ccw pocket. I dont know shit about sbr rifles though so that parts on you
>>30568826
>You need a full power cartridge
looks like it needs to be a PTR91 vs FAL thread now.....
>>30568947
I need to get that.
>>30574757
>Are you suggesting on body carry?
Yes. I've never concealed carry an SBR before due to the shitty laws here, however, my closest suggestion would be a two point or a three point sling. Will you be carrying a bag?
Short barreled AK with folding stock.
You don't get good performance with 5.56 out of a short barrel, and ARs have the buffer tube.
You could go Sig MCX if you really wanted to, but it's not as proven as the others.
I don't know anything about bags, or what you're actually doing, but I'd keep it simple for the sake of blending in.
Law is shit tier.
This is the real deal.
>>30575302
What's the length on that PDW buffer of yours versus a pistol buffer when fully collapsed?
>>30575061
Looked at it. It'd need to be a folding stock, whatever I go with.
>>30575175
Second vote on the MCX.
Side folder AK looks to be the winner at this stage.
Basically, its protection of certain persons in unsecured areas without making it obvious they have protection on them, some corporate types get stressed by that... no air tube ear piece and muttering into a wrist mic. If things go wrong... we are not there to engage and win. We overwhelm aggressively enough to make a hole and tactically disengage with a safe client.
>need AP
>this rules out pistol cal--
Two words: Scoped. Deagle.
>>30575061
You're not out of the vehicle all day, simple as that. You drive some, cover an unsecure area as escort, sit outside some, then reverse. So it doesn't need to be comfortable for a protracted period. Just unobtrusive.
>>30575456
Before or after I spin my kerambit pointlessly?
>>30575158
Not unless its for the weapon. On body with something SBR like (I'm 5'9) would be a challenge. I've worked with 6'3 monsters who can strap all kinds of fun from the shoulder and hang it under a jacket.
Do they still make LR300? Could be what you need.
>>30575985
mcx tho
>>30568857
proofs
>>30568826
I'm a little late to the party, but
>>30568826
No to the Pistol AK, I love my Draco but even with the single point I'd prefer my .45 if shit happens. Pick something with a stock. AK for punching through 2 cinder blocks, AR tight group
>>30576938
DIY or can you buy this?
>>30575540
Welp, as I said a two point or theee point sling can work, or a nice SBR backpack that looks like an ordinary suitcase/business bag.
>>30577092
No clue, but you could probably diy it yourself with some basic high school level shop.
I don't know how much worth the word of a going-on sophomore mechie in college is, but you would probably have to take a briefcase with the latches right next to the handle and:
Cut off the handle and surrounding hole.
Using metal string pulleys or some sort of mechanism, run the switch for a new set of latches to a button on the handle.
Have the briefcase accept the new latches
And, if you want, make the handle mechanism detachable from the rifle. Maybe have it attach to a small set of picatany rails on it. Have slot in the carry handle for the rear sight so it pops out and stays attached to the rifle.
Easier said than done, I know, but that's what it looks like he did.
>>30576641
Of which part?
You don't stick yourself in the heart with atropine redijects like you see in "The Rock". You do it to your leg. Then you bend the needle and hook it to your shirt at chest height so anyone attending in NBC gear who finds you unconscious know how many shots you took.
You do not know the meaning of the word "chafe" until your balls have been to Manilla. You think you do if you have spent time in the sandbox... you are wromg.
Anything else?
>>30577358
Working my way through the backpacks at present.
>>30577648
>>30576938
Reminds me of the old MAC/MP5 rigged briefcases which could be fored from the handle.
Cool, but you're putting a great deal of faith in a number of latches in each instance.
How did you get into this field and what is the pay like?
>>30575302
LAW isn't that bad.
Been going on 2k rounds thusfar and no issues. Stores well in a backpack for the hiking trips inna VA too.
>>30576938
NEED
>>30578211
Been Lost in the Woods broski?
>>30578723
Had a government job beforehand which helped which included close protection. Nobody wants to have to train you in anything, you need pre existing skillsets. The work I do and the clients I get are mostly owing to the fact I've also got several degrees and can act the part of businessman.
Saying you do contract work and used to be military... I know a guy who was in the Navy, never fired a weapon in the course of his service, got himself a spot in a shitty country with a lucrative natural resources sector and built himself quite the entourafe for the afterlife. I'm not going to say "derp, reach out yo your network, derp". If you go to Belgium, for example, work is available. There is also reasonable private training available im Europe if you look for it.
>>30579039
Possible. Maybe I've been to lots of places and a Great Place. Who knows.
