Airbus Defence and Space (DS) is currently working with the German armed forces (Bundeswehr) to identify future threats and capability needs to inform its work on the Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
http://www.janes.com/article/61628/airbus-ds-defining-fcas-aircraft-requirements-with-bundeswehr
>>30360159
>Germans joining the project
That's how you make the French leave.
>>30360159
>>30360726
Relevant FHS
>>30360849
Typhoon and Rafales are both better off as separate projects
>>30360887
I would say that's debatable but YMMV. The French requirement made more sense for Europe, and with the R&D costs spread out over more frames, might make the Eurofighter price competitive for it's capability.
Right now both Eurocanards are vastly more expensive than they should be, and can only realistically be sold to countries that can't buy the F-35.
>>30360887
If the component nations were able to not let bureaucratic dick waving get in the way, the combined euro fighter would have been a far better funded, and technologically mature product, with a large European buy in.
Instead, it came out as a way to create a domestic air defense industry that is limping along, and costing the governments more to support the products than it is in making actual money.
Literally, if the Rafale, and Typhoon were replaced with F-15/ F-18ss, or fuck it, SUs, the governments would still have spent less money, and been ahead in the game.
The arguable margin of performance over their comparable American or Russian counterparts is MASSIVELY offset by a total fucking lack of sustainable force projection, and interoperability.
I wont even waste time comparing F-35 to this, because the projects are so much fucking older.
This...this shit right here, is why the European union cant work, because Europe is a bunch of sovereign nations, not a bunch of individual states.
>>30360999
In terms of prices, it would have certainly be cheaper if they were joined, you're right.
One thing to keep in mind with the Rafale is one of the reason it's so expensive is everything is made in France, even the MB ejection seats are produced under license.
It increases the production cost a lot, but you pay the price of political neutrality. France was selling weapons to Russia until Ukraine, and that's why countries like Egypt or India, who can't really buy only ruskie or only US picked the Rafale.
>>30361045
Well that's what you get with project involving that much people, and that's also why Germany joining FCAS is fundamentaly bad. They want to hop into a project led by the only two europeans countries with a relevant aerospace industry, but that will only drag the whole thing down.
>>30360159
>Maintain single-digit number of Eurofighters
>Start work on a 5th gen, by yourself, with a company that has no 5th gen experience
For fucks sake Germany, just buy F-35s.
>>30360159
Keep in mind Airbus Defense and Space doesn't necessarily mean anyone outside of Germany is involved so far.
Dassault and BAE are however partnering on their own FCAS studies.
Considering Airbus' problems both on their civilian and A400M projects lately, and how the Typhoon upgrades were delayed due to everyone waiting for the other partners to pay more than their share of it, my money is on the anglo-frog team. At least a team of two is manageable and they have an okay track record for joint projects and companies.
>>30360887
This. Of all the time a EU defense project split, it is pretty much the only one it had solid doctrinal and operational reasons instead of pure eco-political ones.
>>30361045
>better buy foreign shit off the shelf
It's not like Typhoon/Rafale development and technologies are a quite a strategic domain with countless civilian, economicaly viable uses, more so for the frogs who have nuclear capable fighters.
>domestic air defense industry that is limping along
I wouldn't say the EF Consortium, Dassault, Saab, BAE or Airbus are merely "limping along"
>>30361134
They have to get the 5th gen experience somewhere
Here's a Russian 6th gen concept designed by the firm TsAGI
why doesnt europe just buy more F-35's?
They have no ability to build stealth aircraft, no ability to develop new ones, what relevance will ANY of their aircraft ever have against stealth?
>>30361165
I heard countries could join the JSF program
>>30361251
pride
>>30361251
>They have no ability to build stealth aircraft, no ability to develop new ones,
Why not tbf?
>>30361300
No budget and no time to catch up
Same reason why noone else has built any stealth aircraft
>>30361338
>No budget
Forgot yuros refuse to spend money on anything but their welfare state lmoa
>>30361247
>TsAGI
>firm
It's their NASA, nigger. Not a company.
>>30361251
>why doesnt europe just buy more F-35's?
What is strategic independance? What are commercial uses of originaly military technologies? What is national GDP?
>no ability to build stealth aircraft
Nevermind the fact F-35 are assembled in Italy (which is not exactly the same as building your own coating, i admit, but they certainly have a large part of the puzzle)
>no ability to develop new ones
What is the Neuron ? What is the Taranis? The fact that the EF2000 and Rafale don't present strong RCS features doesn't mean they have no knowledge of the technology, nor that it is not implemented to a certain extend. They both have fairly low RCS compared to f-18 and the like, and there are persistent rumors about active noise cancelation space magic on the Rafale that i wouldn't entirely dismiss considering some anecdotal evidences here and there, like the MaceXIII exercise, or that they were about to perform entry first unsuported over Syria in 2013 before Obama canceled the US strike and Hollande canceled as well. Beside, France has the largest and arguably most modern RCS echo chamber oustide of the US. They tested the RCS of the Japan 5th gen prototype here rather than in the US. The guys know their shit.
>>30361430
I mean, Europe is already completely dependent on the US for defense and a huge part of their systems.
> F-35
> MEADS
> AMRAAM
> FGM-148
What they don't get from the US, they get from Israel or Sweden.
The British are the only NATO members who make new stuff on a regular basis. The Germans have made what in the past 20 years? PZH-2000, IRIS-T, and some Leopard re-hashes. The French are somewhat better, everyone else might as well not have an arms industry.
Individually, the Europeans have pretty good tactical systems, but C3 and intelligence is extremely dependent on Americans.
>>30361587
>Typhoon / Rafale (okay, not 5th gen but they're not shit either) and two FCAS programs
>SAMP/T
>Meteor
>MMP
But yeah i agree that oustide of France/UK/Sweden, there's not a lot of new shit, nor a lot of military relevance outisde of France and UK at the moment. Germany could get back in the game with a bit of political will and budget, Italy has surprisingly solid procurment and could get a strong role in Lybian matters. A lot of good naval shipyards, DCNS, Damen, Fincantieri, TKMS. Thales is super solid when it comes to electronic systems and is highly international at that point. Plus the major players cited earlier in the thread. MBDA for missiles, the Nexter+KMW alliance puts them in ther major league as well. Will see what the next decade will bring. The era of post-cold war peace and low military budgets is over imho. We will see how the countries who have little weapon industries will prefer to invest, in european programs or US ones. It will depend on economical retruns and if they feel EU is able to geopolitically support them (which is certainly not a given)
>>30361382
>It's their NASA, nigger. Not a company.
> Implying anything in the Russian oligarchy isn't a commercial enterprise that exists for the sole purpose of exploiting the masses to enrich the elites.
>>30361338
The UK and France have experience in developing stealth aircraft (Taranis, Replica, nEUROn, F-35 work, etc) and the UK and France have decent avionics industries (BAE did the ESM / part of the EW systems for the F-22 and F-35).
All they need are for the requirements of multiple nations to coincide to fund a fighter. It's like if there was no federal government of the US and you had to rally up enough state governments to fund a fighter program.
>>30362610
>All they need are for the requirements of multiple nations to coincide to fund a fighter.
kind of like they did with the eurofighter....
>>30362650
Exactly, just hopefully (but let's not kid ourselves) with less a shitshow.
>>30360159
Oh please NO. GOD NO. Not Airbus. Not the germans. Fuck these asshats. They're gonna break it all.
I hope Dassault will get out of here QUICK if they try to interfere.
>>30362871
Germans are unironically the best engineers in the world.
>>30362920
But they've gone soft when it comes to military aviation.
>>30362920
>Germans are unironically the best engineers in the world.
they unironically are fucking not. a bunch of luxury cars and industries protected from competition at the government level does not make them the best engineers at anything.
>>30362920
In some things, in other things they are complete trash/have awful design principles.
>>30360887
Eurofighter would have been better off and less delayed if French would have never been connected to the project in any form.
>>30361157
>Considering Airbus' problems both on their civilian and A400M projects lately
Airbus doesn't really have any out of ordinary problems in their civilian products... military projects are mess and A400M only has marginal issues when compared to NH90.
>>30362115
Lol you just described the united States
>>30362655
Just ask the frogs not to fuck about this time and it'll probably go a lot smoother
>>30364883
>the nh90
I wonder if ill ever wake up from this nightmare
>>30362920
That was really never true
Or if it was, it was 100 years ago
All these engineers have died off with no replacements because career women don't have children in germany.
