Why aren't shotguns more popular in urban warfare? I'm specifically thinking of saiga-12s and mossbergs with box mag kits. 12ga has the most penetration power under 50 yards, and the most likely to give lethal wounds. Wouldn't a 5-man urban combat team with 1-2 shotgunners be more effective than 5 with AR carbines?
>>30102862
>Wouldn't a 5-man urban combat team with 1-2 shotgunners be more effective than 5 with AR carbines?
No. Carbines are better.
>why don't we give our troops shotguns so they're absolutely worthless at range and can't lay down any notable amount of fire?
What a brilliant idea.
Weight, low capacity, and shotguns actually penetrate jack shit, especially when it comes to armor, even soft iiia armor can stop buckshot and slugs.
Other than that for unarmored targets, it's absolutely devastating.
A good choice for HD, but more of a breachig tool/less-than-lethal option on today's battlefield
>>30102862
Many box fed shotguns do not cycle reliably. That's a bit of a problem. Besides,
while shotguns are useful in many situations, there aren't too many situations I can imagine when it comes to close range shooting that can't be compensated for with a FA carbine.
>>30102862
Low capacity compared to a carbine
Low penetration through armor and walls compared to a carbine
If you have to deal with someone 100-200 yards away you cant effectively deal with them with a combat style shotgun
Shotshells are bigger than 5.56, so it is more difficult to carry a lot of shotgun shell compared to 5.56
>>30102862
A 30-round mag that's not very long compared to the one in OP pic gives much better capacity, especially if you're carrying multiple. A round of .223 at 50 feet might not devastate like 12ga buck would but its still a hit that can incapacitate the enemy
>>30102862
Having to Carry a shotgun would mean you lack range so you'd have to carry a second gun which would be a huge pain in the ass. That's not to say that carbines are better per se, simply that they are more practical considering that they can still get the job. Also they can tend to be longer and less reliable than catbines. While I hate to use the term stopping power, shotguns simply can't be beat in this however. This makes them incredibly useful in more niche roles such as swat or law enforcement where the extra weight and other factors is a non issue
shotguns are great for HD or crowd control
they aren't so great in any other situation
>cqb where you could be shooting as close to a meter off of friendly personnel
>want to use buckshot
>>30102980
wearing eye and ear protection makes this a non-issue. But most boots are retards that don't understand this concept so they end up with eyepatches and hearing aids
>>30102862
Because outside of breaching and a maybe ending up needing to use it 'cause it's still in your hands, there's not so much you can do with one. Houses and apartments that house filth the world around tend to be small anyways, so you're not getting much good spread.
A carbine allows you to breach and clear, react to near and far contact, assault through a position. And it's lighter and ya get more ammo. However, the days of MP5 and pump shotgun SWAT raids give me a throbbing erection.
>>30102862
>12ga has the most penetration power under 50 yards
If the enemy force doesn't have body armor.
Shotguns have their place, even on a battlefield, but not as a first-choice primary.
Do you realize how bulky and heavy 12ga shells are? It's not cod.
>>30102862
shotgun shells are big and heavy OP, a 10 round 12 ga mag would be heavier and significantly bigger than a 30 round mag of 5.56 or 7.62.
you can also get much more use from a rifle round compared to a shotgun.
with a shotgun you cant
-engage targets at 100m+ reliably
-lay down suppressive fire
-fire quickly
yall keep on saying that 12g has no penetration against armor, if you hit someone in the chest with a 1oz slug it doesn't matter if they're wearing armor, it won't go through, but there's a shit ton of force that it won't matter, it'll still kill you
>>30103169
This is a joke, right?
Do you even physics?
>>30102862
Shotguns are glorified breaching tools where combat is concerned. That's it.
Better hope you dont get shot at from 300 yards down the road or from a 4 story roof top.
Shotguns are great for ships, house and like an office building but the second sone one can get up high or across the road a bit they begin to lack fast
>>30103169
Aaaaand there it is, every thread that mentions armor.
The single anon who doesn't understand the difference between momentum and kinetic energy.
>>30102887
>shotguns actually penetrate jack shit
Wasn't it ARfags who said shotguns penetrate more so that's why ARs are better for HD?
volume of fire beats stopping power
>>30104407
AR's penetrate soft targets less than shotguns do, eg. Drywall, or flesh.
Hard targets such as armor is where shotguns dont even compare.
Soft lead + bad sectional density = poor penetration.
That said i keep a shotgun for home defense.
Devastating on an unarmored person
>Low capacity
>Heavy
>Low penetration against cover and armour
>Only really effective within 50m (>inb4 "muh super-accurate slug shootan')
>Heavier recoil means slower follow-up shots
>Typically longer barrel means shorter reactionary gap in tight spaces
>Much slower to reload
>Can't carry as even nearly as much ammo on your person
>Harder from a logistics perspective
Frankly, carbines are better than shotguns in every single situation except clays and duck shooting.
>>30106638
In a home defense situation, just pumping a pump-action shotgun will send most folks running.
But then you don't get to shoot the thieving bastard, so that's 50/50.
They're pretty good for blowing off some hinges.
For a Soldier though, Carbines are the best choice.
>>30106650
Please never say this again.
>Hurr I'm going to enter into a gun fight with an unloaded weapon
>I'm also going to give away my position and give them the advantage
But if you're really convinced with the "chambering a round scares people" myth, why not just rack the charging handle on an AK?
>>30106650
yea in home defense i just fire two blast of my double barrel in the air.
After racking it menacingly of course.
>>30106670
It's not a gun fight, anon. It's waking up in the middle of the night to some strange noises in your house. So you get up, grab your shotgun from under your bed or next to it, and pump it.
It's been shown that most burglars will avoid any conflict or violence if given the opportunity. Do you really think some bastard wouldn't bail if he knew the homeowner was coming down with a shotgun instead of a bat or pepper spray or some shit? Honestly, just yelling would probably have almost the same effect.
>>30102862
Carbines are for killing men. Shotguns are for killing birds.
The shotgun is a meme weapon, based on rural poorfags reloading em, which turned into cheapo cops using em, which turned into nostalgic Hollywood directors featuring them, which turned into video games featuring them. Its value is a 80-year old game of telephone.
>>30106700
>It's not a gun fight
>I'm just bringing a gun to fight somebody
Yes, it's a gun fight.
>>30106712
Gun fight implies the other dude has a gun too. If he doesn't then it's not a fight to begin with, just somebody getting shot.
>>30106700
It's not my job to discern the motives of someone breaking into my house.
I'm not going to take the time to think about what an intruder plans on doing.
If i have to leave my room, im doing so with one in the chamber
>>30106682
keep the change, you filthy animal
>>30106706
>Shotguns are for killing birds
A 12 guage will kill anything Black Bear and under AND be usable against birds.
they're not a meme weapon, they're a multi function tool. Although i do believe shotguns have little use in war other than for blasting a door open.
>>30103169
>reads
>>30103185
It's gotta be bait, right? ...right?
>>30106740
Forgot to mention, a shotgun can be used for things other than killing. the real reason cops use them today is because of the assload of less than lethal and smoke options.
>>30106733
I didn't say anything against that, anon. If someone's broken into your home then no holds barred. This ain't some lefty forum where they'd tell you to just hand him your wallet because he needs it more than you do. Shoot the bastard.
Shotguns are great if all you've got to do is stay put and a high volume of fire isn't expected, such as in HD and police use (SWAT, police warrant service, felony car stops, etc.).
They served a military purpose back when line troops had mostly bolt-action and large caliber battle rifles, such as during WWI trench warfare and WWII jungle combat (relatively high volume of fire + buckshot does really really bad things to the human body at close range). They would work if all one had to do was kick in doors in Baghdad, but a 5.56 carbine would be far more versatile when, say, some dude starts shooting at you from that tall building a few blocks down the street.
>>30102862
30-40 rounds of 5.56x45 in a hurry
>>30102905
>Many box fed shotguns do not cycle reliably
The shitty ones don't, especially when using ammo not designed for it or when in states of disrepair.now it's barely worth mentioning
>>30106945
Are there any good pump conversion kits?
>>30102882
evaluate on this
>>30106740
it doesn't have the ability to penetrate well enough or the accuracy to be a reliable dangerous game weapon. you need a rifle for that.
and this is someone whose favorite 3gun stages are shotgun stages.
Ok guys don't be mad but how to mags in pump shotguns work, what does the tube do if you have a mag in
>>30102887
>Implying the penetration of the slug is what kills you and not the 3 broken ribs and the follow up shot
I don't even own a shotgun that just sounds unrealistic.
>>30109334
>what does the tube do if you have a mag in
serves exclusively as a guide rod for the pump
>>30106737
oldfag detected
>>30109350
>Implying 3 broken ribs will kill you.
>>30109550
that and the attachment point for the barrel
>>30103169
But that's given you actually manage to hit your target. A carbine with a 30 round magazine would offer better chances of getting on target than a 6-10 round shotgun (at greater range too)
>>30103055
>cod
are you saying that shotgun ammunition is not the genus of Gadus of demersal fishes, belonging to the family Gadidae?
>>30102862
>Gun fight implies the other dude has a gun too
Unless you were with the fool right before he kicked in the door to your home you have no idea if he has a gun or not. Best not to leave yourself unarmed or unloaded in the event he does.
>>30109893
Woops, meant for >>30106723
>>30109350
a broken rib wouldn't likely kill you, even if it did it wouldn't take you out of a fight.
>>30102884
Yeah lets take all the shotguns from SWAT teams and give them carabines. Also why do we need SMG's? We can easily just give them carabines too and they'll shoot bigger.
>>30108997
>it doesn't have the ability to penetrate well enough or the accuracy to be a reliable dangerous game weapon
Bro, the fuck are you on about?
A dangerous game slug is one of the top tier bear medicine rounds within its range
>>30102862
SHotguns are close range weapons and less useful against armor
everything other than that comes down to logistics
Most of the other reasons anons are giving are nonsense
Also I'll point out that the benelli m4 DOES see use by US forces
>>30106706
>The shotgun is a meme weapon
no, you're a memelord
I swear it's almost as if some of you anons only get exposed to guns through videogames
>>30110418
Swat teams use carbines nigger, what are you smoking.
>>30103044
Wow, i found a commenter who isn't an idiot!
>>30106769
Why can't more people who know what they're talking about comment?
Perhaps the same reason so many ignorant teenagers do comment?
Either way, nice to see someone who isn't a total idiot comment.
>>30108997
A 12 guage doesn't have the power to be a dangerous game weapon?
That's so stupid
Have you heard of high powered slugs?
Or did you mean fucking elephants, because even then I'll bet someone out there makes a sabot that would get the job done.
>>30110575
Its sarcasm
>>30110575
Not exclusively they dont
Lets see what military testing says about that, starts on page 16
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/10-1997.pdf
Less ammo, heavier ammo, slower reloads, more recoil, less precision, slower rate of fire, can't even pierce soft armor, and has shit for range.
And to top it all off? The wound profile of 00 buck isn't even better than M855 inside it's ~150m fragmentation range.
Shotguns are inferior in every way. A hooligan tool/crowbar and boltcutters are superior for quiet night-time breaches for COIN. Demo and HE weapons are better for overt clearing. You could argue that for certain hostage-rescue situations a shotgun is easier, but overpressure still has to be applied separately, and there's a delay, unlike demo.
It's a peasant weapon and peasants will always find ego-fluffing excuses for why their cheap shit is as good as what professionals use instead. AR500 buyers do the same thing excusing why they don't buy ceramic.
>>30108873
>evaluate
.......do you mean elaborate?
>>30113798
>It's a peasant weapon and peasants will always find ego-fluffing excuses for why their cheap shit is as good as what professionals use instead.
This is so stupid man
A good shotgun has its niche, just like a good smg or lmg
soldiers dont get issued dmrs lmgs smgs or shotguns as primary weapons because a good carbine is more likely to suit any given situation and it's simpler for the gov, but that doesnt mean they dont have their roles
>>30113905
lmao
>>30114578
There is a direct parallel to tanks here. At one time, shotguns - like SMGs - had a niche. There were a variety of roles for different tanks - light ones, medium tanks, heavy tanks...because the inferior technology of the era and immature design had not reached their potential to converge on the optimum: the MBT.
In personal combat, that is the carbine: better than shotgun or SMG, with the advantages of both and disadvantages of neither.
Those roles are ghosts of a more primitive era. Modern roles: GPMG, carbine, tank, plane, what have you - have replaced them.
>>30113798
>can't even pierce soft armor
doesnt need to if it breaks all their ribs and sternum.
>>30114651
>In personal combat, that is the carbine: better than shotgun or SMG, with the advantages of both and disadvantages of neither.
But the reality is that neither the smg or the shotgun have disappeared from active use.
look, neither of those things is suitable to be fielded by average soldiers but the OP's question had to do with urban warfare. No one with any sense would just give a soldier a 12 guage unless they were going to be primarily clearing buildings, but for that purpose they do hold their own against a fully automatic carbine
the reality is that for unarmored opponents in indoor fighting, a good semiauto shotgun (like a benelli m4) is a top tier weapon
>>30103203
Not OP, but it doesn't matter what primary you're carrying when you get sniped from 300 yards.
>>30114867
In the fantasies of civilians without combat experience it is. And unfortunately those fantasies are perpetuated in crippleware contests like 3-gun - it should be 2-gun.
Professionals who work in groups against other groups of armed men, especially the really experienced ones who can choose their own gear, universally prefer carbines.
It's almost like training and experience in a subject result in different opinions which have different levels of validity!
>>30114685
Yes it does, penetration and bleeding are the only reliable way firearms incapacitate people, relying on blunt force trauma from a firearm is idiotic.
You'd literally cause more damage clubbing the person with the gun itself
>>30108873
>evaluate on this
>>30114867
Only time someone shoots someone with a shotgun is if the breacher cant get to his carbine in time.
Theres zero tactical advantage switching between a shotgun and carbine in combat, this isnt call of duty.
Shotguns are fine defensive weapons on the civilian side though
>>30115079
>Professionals who work in groups against other groups of armed men, especially the really experienced ones who can choose their own gear, universally prefer carbines.
People largely prefer carbines these days because they are the default weapon.
The reality is that a smart guy goes into combat with the weapon he has the most experience with so long as it's viable.
>>30115079
>Professionals who work in groups against other groups of armed men, especially the really experienced ones who can choose their own gear,
real life is not call of duty m8, this is literally only contractors and contractors are like 90% army dropouts
>>30102862
shotshells are heavy, shotguns are heavy, if you shoot someone with a carbine they're going to be very hurt anyway so you may as well carry the thing you can carry more ammo for
it's also why militaries moved away from .308 in favor of .223; fudd out all you want about TERMINAL BALLISIKS, but at the end of the day, getting hit with .223 hurts and you can carry much more of it than you can .308
>>30110418
That's literally exactly what most large departments have done.
>>30115818
This is a huge part of it. Only an idiot would try to suggest a shot from a 223= a round of buck, but logistically carbines just make so much fucking sense
>>30115864
lots of swats use shotguns
the transition of police to carbines has more to do with the trickle down of military arms and culture than the weapon's virtues anyway
>>30110379
>If it killed you, it wouldn't take you out of the fight.
>>30115979
They use shotguns for taking out locks and LTL
>>30102990
>wearing ear protection
>in combat
>>30116070
Not even a shotgun fag but you're legitimately retard and have never served if you think nobody uses ear pro
>>30116070
Are you a fucking retard?
>>30115979
>trickle down of military arms and culture than the weapon's virtues anyway
n...n..nnoo anon, no, just no
I really hope this is bait, because if you are serious, you need to seriously consider removing yourself from the gene pool.
>>30116108
>>30116112
Wouldn't that be an awful idea though?
Not being able to hear shit
>>30116070
>>30115979
>>30114685
>>30113798
>>30110418
>>30108873
God fucking dammit /k/ where the fuck synapses and why aren't any of the firing?
>>30116146
>what is electronic ear pro
>what are hand signals
>what is talking loudly
>>30116146
A pair of $15 EarPro can block out sounds over a certain db while leaving sounds under that threshold untouched.
3M also makes electronic earmuffs that can enhance sounds via a microphone while blocking out sounds over a certain db and allowing normal radio communication.
>>30116162
>>>>>are your synapses
Fucking christ this thread has so much retardation it made me retarded
>>30116164
>>what is electronic ear pro
Isn't that kind of spotty on how well it works?
>>what are hand signals
>>what is talking loudly
Not something enemies do.
>>30116201
>isn't it spotty
Have you ever owned a pair? No, it isn't.
>not something enemies do
Every military does it and even durkadurkas do. And if you're up against thugs the only thing you'll be needing to say are "POLICE HANDS UP" and when you're done clearing a room, "CLEAR"
Also why would it matter if the enemy doesn't do it? Them not having communication and being deafened by gunshots is an advantage to you
>>30116046
Again, not exclusively.
>>30116118
Nah, it's pretty legit. Modern police adopt a lot of military styled stuff just because it's Le Anti-Terror :^) and not because it helps them in police work. Like, why do police need fucking tanks these days?
>>30116201
>irl is video games and "enemies" are all one class of programmed object
alright, /k/
>>30116070
nigger army units have literal buckets of ear plugs fucking everywhere
>>30102862
>Why aren't shotguns more popular in urban warfare?
It's because the military and the military personnel who'd have to use them know far more than you.
Iv been reading this thread and people seam to let the boners get in the way of there mind. A shotgun within 50-70 yards is by far the most dangerous thing you will face. The example i use is the shot out at OK corral. 3v3 or 4v4 all using large caliber hot loaded .44 muzzle loaders. Almost every one there got hit multiple times and where able to return fire. Dc.Holiday brought a double barreled shotgun. 2 shots,2 kills. They are insanely deadly at there effective ranges and if aimed well. The issue is on a modern day battle field when can you guarantee your enemies is going to be at that 50-75 yard range?you cant. When a group is doing room to room sweeps in a urban environment you can bet at least one of them has a benelli m4. but the rest have carbines to even out the range lost by using one.
They are very deadly but very situation. The carbine is just a better all around gun, not better in close range but good enough.
>>30116118
Yes actually my man
For the job that police actually do, a good 12 gauge is fine 99.999 percent of the time
The transition to carbines we've been seeing since the officer survival movement picked up speed has a lot more to do with looking for a gear related solution to a complicated problem than it does the actual advantages and shortcomings of the weapons in question
Law enforcement agencies are especially susceptible to tactical fads
for example we moved away from the 9mm to the 45 because "stopping power"
then to 40 because "penetration of intermediate barriers and capacity"
then back to 9mm because "capacity"
next we'll probably go back to the 45 or jump to some super hot 9mm knock off
>>30104407
>ARs are better for HD?
It's all pissing in the wind because literally anything bigger than a .22lr will punch through a house and a half and still kill someone unless you luck out and hit someone's fridge or similar.
>>30116326
>the military personnel who'd have to use them know far more than you.
lmao if you think they consult the users of equipment before changing shit
life is not call of duty, you don't get fun points over your career to spend on equipment. they get whatever they want and then give it to you, same as any other workplace.
>>30116362
Are you illiterate?
>>30116176
Pretty sure you were retarded anyway anon
try looking at the context of some of those comments and i think you'll see they don't mean what you think they do.
>>30116350
I would figure shotguns would be king for police.
>can chamber less lethal rounds
>can throw slugs in it for going through car doors
>can throw birdshot in it for not damaging people's precious aluminum siding
>ammo weight doesn't matter because you have a patrol car to leave it in while you do your thing
>short ranges mean that literally every advantage of normal rifles is lost compared to pistols and shotguns
they should just issue Judges in .410 2bh
>>30116373
Again,
>the military personnel who'd have to use them know far more than you.
Do you really think that militaries consult their soldiers or even lower officers on what kit to buy for them? Canada went into Afghanistan wearing green camo, and US humvees weren't bottom-armored against IEDs for a long time despite mines being nothing new.
>>30116326
my objections to this comment are
1. it's needlessly condescending to the op
2. it's full of un-introspective stupidity
3. it's just wrong
>>30104407
That makes no sense. A slug might have a lot of energy, but it'd still deform a lot and lose it quickly as soon as it hits anything harder than plaster.
Also, bird and buck shot exist.
>>30116423
Also, lots of US units going in literally without armor. You can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars calling in laser-guided bombs on single men, but fuck giving anyone some rifle plates.
>>30116343
>people seam to let the boners get in the way of there mind
welcome to /k/ man
the demographics here are;
30% nogunz teenagers
30% ignorant AR fanatics
30% ignorant any-other-gun freaks
5% deliberate shitposters
5% experienced or knowledgeable gun owners
>>30116384
The problem with that is at the end of the day whatever you shot out of them would only be a 410 coming out of a pistol
a 12 gauge has any advantage a .410 would while also being able to shoot a larger projectile at a higher velocity
>>30116557
counterpoint: 12ga is heavy and big and would not fit in a pistol package you could use while patrolling on foot casually as cops generally do, and Judges freakin' rule
how about 20ga then. is that good enough? is there a 20ga Judge?
