Finland, Norway and Denmark have all recently started programs to acquire new/replacement 155mm self-propelled artillery.
What should they get? Note Finland hasn't short listed anyone, but Norway and Denmark have.
Tracked options
PzH 2000 by KMW
Krab by HSW
K9 Thunder by Hanwha Techwin
M109A7 by BAE Systems
M109 modernised by RUAG
Wheeled options
CAESAR by Nexter
ATMOS by Elbit
Archer by BAE Systems Bofors
Kryl by HSW
http://www.janes.com/article/60738/finland-to-select-new-sp-artillery-system
http://www.janes.com/article/57738/norway-downselects-artillery-contenders
http://www.janes.com/article/59456/denmark-picks-five-bidders-for-artillery-procurement
Filling out the Scandinavia line is Sweden which went ahead with the Archer.
http://www.janes.com/article/57781/archer-spa-enters-swedish-army-service
>>30089016
Which version of the caesar are they offering? They made a new bigger uparmored version.
Pic related, taken by me two days ago.
>>30089016
PALADIN
A
L
L
Y
>>30089016
Why would anyone go wheeled over tracked. especially since they look like they shoot slower.
>>30089146
I'm going to assume that the new version is replacing the older one on the production line.
Same thing is happening with the new version of the VBCI.
>>30089156
>39 calibre
>>30089172
Im sorry its not a meme, expensive, special snowflake euroround.
>>30089172
I wouldn't assume that. The différences between the new and old are in the chassis used, which are not in the same weight classes. The gun system itself is essentially unchanged.
http://www.janes.com/article/59782/ruag-defence-develops-upgraded-m109
More details on the 109 modernisation by RUAG. Sounds pretty fucking neat for those on a budget.
In service with the Swiss with over 300 systems upgraded.
>>30089194
This looks pretty cool. Why this instead of a tracked and Armored version.
>>30089194
Holy shit, too future for me.
Any details on potential budget?
In addition, how does track vs wheel debate differ for Scandinavia?
>>30089183
>euroround
The gun is a 155mm L/39. In other words, the barrel is 39 calibers long (39*155mm = 6m long). The CAESAR, by comparison, is a whopping 52 calibers long, meaning more muzzle velocity and range. It has nothing to do with the round.
>>30089418
Not all M109's have a 39 caliber gun, heck even America's making a 52 caliber gun for their M109A7's and M777's.
This is not getting into the pro's and con's of barrel lengths.
Not that well known thing is that we had program to acquire SPGs in early 2000s. The winning one was unsurprisingly PzH 2000. So we can savely ignore rest of them, unless Bofors go full jew and shill us to submission.
>>30089450
All 109s have 39 calibre guns, even the A7.
Unless a foreign manufacturer upgraded the gun like RUAG did to 47 calibre.
Also, the ERCA is just an evaluation program, not an actual upgrade program.
But I sure as hell hope it succeeds.
There's no reason you wouldn't want a 52 calibre barrel over a 39. The only reason BAE kept the 39 barrel was purely for costs, a new gun, breech and turret mounting might have sunk the A7.
>>30089500
>There's no reason you wouldn't want a 52 calibre barrel over a 39.
52 caliber barrels are less accurate and unable to sustain the same rate of fire due to heat buildup.
Wish Australia picked up the second hand PzH 2000s the Dutch were selling.
>>30089016
>Archer by BAE Systems Bofors
The whole reason we(Norway) is doing the tender is because Archer sucked enough balls to make us bail on the project. Something that makes be believe they will have a hard time selling it to other nations as well.
Are the PzH2000 offered the A2 versions?
>>30089826
Everything I read seems like Norway dropped it for costs and contractual issues.
Nothing implicating performance.
>>30089016
K9.
>>30089146
Norway wants 8x8
>>30089203
>rubber tracks instead of steel
>upgraded engine
etc.
shit
>>30090051
Flick rammer and the new gun is fantastic, since the 109 can't do MRSI.
The Danes and Norwegians fitted rubber tracks in Afghanistan.
They worked out pretty fucking well.
>>30090261
>since the 109 can't do MRSI.
Wew lad. You sure?
Let's see the sale track record.
PzH 2000: Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Greece, Lithuania, Croatia and Qatar
Krab: Poland
K9 Thunder: South Korea, Turkey and India. Note the Krab uses the K9 chassis
M109A7: United States
M109 RUAG: Switzerland
CAESAR: France, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, Indonesia and Lebanon
ATMOS: Azerbaijan, Cameroon, Thailand and Uganda
Archer: Sweden
Kryl: None
>>30090261
>Norwegians fitted rubber tracks in Afghanistan.
On what?
>>30090457
The Krab's the export model AS90 isn't it?
>>30090466
CV90s.
>>30090500
It was originally. But now it's a K9 chassis, AS90 Braveheart turret and Rheinmetall gun.
>>30090261
>the 109 can't do MRSI
yes it can, you just have to do it manually(on the Norwegian model, that is).
>>30090563
>>30090277
After further reading, yeah I fucked up. My mistake.
>>30090532
>CV90s.
Yeah i know that, just didn't see how it fit into a discussion on artillery
Btw, those rubber tracks were a pure pain in the ass at first. It was mainly just a test-program during the closing days of our Cv90 deployments down there.
>>30089135
are those things really more mobile than tracked systems?
>>30090658
On roads, yes
>>30089016
I always found the Caesar cute. A cute vehicle with a 155mm gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1iSuvRvJuY
>>30090654
>It was mainly just a test-program during the closing days of our Cv90 deployments down there.
Should add, testing for the recent MkIII Cv90's that we are currently getting with rubber belts :p
>>30089146
I hope so, the truck supporting the gun is utter shit. The frame bends after a few shots.
When given the chance (static shooting) I still a lot of guys firing self-propelled artillery from the outside.
Is it just generally more pleasant that way?
>>30089556
[Citation needed]
They should drop all of those pleb tier designs.
And go for the best of them all, guaranteed to remove kebab or your money back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiCiz-FOnjo
>>30089016
Royal Artillery officer here. Some soldiers from 1RHA told me they'd trialled the CAESER and it was shit. Fucking awful off road - the AS90 leaves it in the dust. Apparently the sellers said it can do 55kph off road and so the soldiers, being soldiers, said "OK. Dot it." It took a little bit of arguing but eventually they agreed, and the thing barely even managed 20kph and was bumping and clanking like a bucket of spanners.
We're still looking for a replacement for AS90 and the L118, but so far nothing can fill both slots. The M777 is supposed to be good but I don't know how far that's progressing. I'm still quite junior in the RA hierarchy.
>>30091254
Another thing, how the fuck is the CAESAR going to quickly escape counter battery fire, especially given that the Russians are decimating Ukrainian artillery within 30 seconds of them firing their first shell?
It's ludicrous to mount a gun on a wheeled truck that looks like its designed to do long distance road haulage.
>>30090457
>K9 Thunder: South Korea, Turkey and India.
What is with turkey and using korean military tech? First the Altay and now this?
>>30091282
Wait... I thought the Atlay was co-dev with Japs? Or did that fall through, i never paid much attention to turkroach shit.
>>30091240
looks top heavy as fuck when it drives around at the start of the video.
>>30091267
But isnt the CAESAR more for their african or afghanistan adventures? For a real enemy they have their AMX-30
>>30091282
>>30091296
Oddly enough, quite a few middle eastern and african nations use Korean or Korean-derived equipment.
>>30091297
They look good to me.
https://youtu.be/-qHsPH1HSiY?t=1m53s
I've seen one doing 70ish Km/h on a Highway a couple months ago.
>>30091305
it's getting phased out, been out of production for twenty years, and out of active service in about three years
>>30091296
>trusting anything tracked developed by Japs
Not even the roaches are that stupid
>>30091318
http://www.armyrecognition.com/january_2014_global_defense_security_news_industry/japan_is_looking_to_develop_an_engine_for_main_battle_tank_in_collaboration_with_turkey_0701143.html
>>30091305
Afghan is over. We're preparing for "contingency" ops now.
Plus the light gun was fucking perfect for Afghan, hence BAE charging us 50% more for light gun ammo than for 155mm ammo.
I guess CAESAR would be OK sat in a MOB lobbing projectiles. But a tracked SPG can do that just as well and is no more difficult when it comes to logistics (both are equally inconvenient though especially compared to the light gun (105mm L118).
I think the M777 will win for the British Army eventually. It's 155mm so satisfies that requirement, and the new metalworking methods/technology/whatever that has gone into it have made it extremely light for what it is. I don't know how manoeuvrable it is compared to the 105 but we'll see.
>>30091347
It's ridiculously light and well balanced. Expensive as shit though
>>30091386
It's also twice the weight of the L118. I don't really get why we NEED a 155mm towed gun, the L118 does its role well and is extremely manoeuvrable - you gun run it around with just a few guys pushing it. It sucks, but it's possible, and we do "gun runs" quite a lot for "fun". Can't do that with an M777.
I don't understand a lot of what the army does.
I won't deny, the AS90 needs replacement because it's outdated and breaks down all the time, and parts are impossible to come by any more. But replacing it with a towed gun that ALSO replaced the L118, or with the shitheap that is the CAESAR...oh dear
>>30091254
>>30091267
I think that's one of the reasons the French are introducing a new chassis.
http://www.janes.com/article/54396/caesar-rolls-in-on-eight-wheels-dsei15-d2
Did the same thing when the Poms also said they didn't like the VBCI and went back and improved it.
>>30091282
South Korea gave Turkey excellent Transfer of Technology.
>>30091296
>>30091318
The Turkish wanted a Mitsubishi engine for their tanks, but Japanese law at the time prevented that.
>>30091438
>http://www.janes.com/article/54396/caesar-rolls-in-on-eight-wheels-dsei15-d2
That looks no better...it's still a brick with wheels that can't keep up with an armoured battlegroup unless they're driving along a motorway.
>>30091417
Is there really nothing out there which fits the requirements for a new mobile artillery vehicle? Im sure it wouldnt be a problem if this country had the money to invest in domestic projects like new artillery but its quite discerning how not even foreigners can build something appropriate.
>>30090658
>>30089135
>>30089016
the Archesr system was supposed to replace the old norwegian m109, but when testing the archer it was shit in terrain and could only move on roads.
it was dropped instantly.
using archer basically tells your enemy that all your artillery is on the road somewhere.
>>30091282
Worst Korea makes stuff that works in mountains. Turkey has mountains.
>>30091520
concerning*
>>30091536
Having spent about 5 years working alongside those M109's up in Norway, i cant really say that they did much else either. Unless the ground is somewhat dry or the snow not loose/deep, the M109 stayed along the roads as well
>>30091667
at least the m109s could work alongside roads.
>>30089781
Who bought the Dutch ones or are they still for sale? How many?
>>30091100
[basic physics needed]
Here's these fossiles.
>>30089016
How do these compare with Coalition lads?
