Do you support the idea of the United States of Europe? Why or why not.
What do you think is the best form of government such a union would have to work the best?
>>61703759
I support idea of political body that would unite nations of Europe under a single banner and assure them mutual security and prosperity while preserving their spirit and culture, and that would promote their shared interest vis-a-vis rest of the world while providing opportunity for economic competition as well as cooperation between its constituents.
If "united states of europe" would work towards this goal then yes, I support it.
>>61703759
fuck off and kill yourself
yes, but not before reforms make EU institutions fully democratic and limiting national influence in Brussel.
>>61704232
>assure them mutual security and prosperity while preserving their spirit and culture
That's exactly what doesn't happen though unless you can do it without actually creating a separate federal government or you wind up with an ever expanding federal power that exists for itself and gradually takes control away from the states and ultimately the people while forcing their own agenda and ideals which are usually those of huge globalist corporations who don't give a shit about anything or anyone other than their short term stock market gains.
You can have some half ass democratic process to supposedly choose it's leaders but even so you wind up with the huge bureaucracy they create which is filled with unelected officials who really don't answer to anyone so you can change the head but the beast stays the same. And never mind the taxes it needs to "function".
I think it's better to stick with trade and defense deals between the separate countries. Europe hasn't needed to become one united country to accomplish all it has in just the past 60 years.
>>61703759
No. It's more than enough that we have shitty bureaucracy on a national level, no need to add another layer in there.
Besides, there is no Europe, it's a vague geographical term at best. European Union is a wet dream of "let's all be friends" cosmpolitan liberals. The kind of people who would want to practise socialism with human face. It's only a question of time before they fuck up Europe irreperably.
>>61703759
I loathe and abhor the name, but I support the concept of a federalized Europe (as long as the name isn't USE).
I think the best government form for this union would be a federative parliamentary republic with an executive head of state. The central government would control foreign policy, defence, border control, and a first level of taxation and market policy. The member states would control everything else.
>>61705830
hmm, that sounds vaguely like another union of white states that became centralized and completely subservient to its federal government after not even a century on another continent... can't quite remember which though.
Do you support the bloated mess that is the United States of America? Do you want that for Europe? Do you want the power concentrated in one easily lobbied area? Are giant unions a mistake?
sorry to answer a question with questions
no because fuck you
>>61703759
No
Because I don't want to see individual Euro countries dissolve to fuel the fantasies of megalomaniac politicians.
>>61705902
The US isn't that centralized. The individual states are quite different in many ways in spite of 3/4 being cultural photocopies. If anything they lend weight to federalist ideas.
Besides, you seem rather spooked. Your city is already subservient to the polish government, why is being subservient to the european government any worse?
Nationalism is good, but be careful not to be memed into loyalism.
>>61706134
>why is being subservient to the european government any worse?
Because it's not Polish, and even worse, it's German.
>>61703759
No, a single federal European state is the best way to make Europe completely irrelevant.
>>61703759
depends on the countries included.
We also have a kanguage issue indeed.
If its like a giant switzerland Im all for it.
>>61703759
Yes. It is the only way for Europe to remain relevant at world stage.
They would need to change a lot of flags and values. A new union must be much more religious and military. Nobody respects this tolerance cuck union.
>>61706191
>Because it's not Polish
But it could be. It's only german now because half the union wants to shove its own head in the sand and ignore continental politics.
Besides, why is polish identity any better than european or cracovian/varsavian/gdanskian identity?
Yes, I support idea about United Socialistic World Republic of Communism
>>61706293
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/03/mri_software_bugs_could_upend_years_of_research/
Sadly my dream of changing people's values via non invasive mind altering methods might be impossible in my lifetime...
If this happens, we'll see a confederacy win this time.
Can't wait for Euro-Klux-Klan 2bh.
>>61703759
>Do you support the idea of the United States of Europe?
no, because my country is affected by shitty politics from other eu countries so get out
>>61703759
No, both because it's against the interests of Switzerland and because I think it's a shit idea in general.
>>61703759
Yes, now that Britain is out its the best time to do it
>What do you think is the best form of government such a union would have to work the best?
Only federation, pretty much
>>61703759
No, I don't support globalism. And will be so happy when the EU collapses.
>>61706611
Maybe it has something to do that people in power of your country are fucking bananas
>>61706611
>my country is affected by shitty politics from other eu countries
such as
>>61706611
>complains about "shitty" EU politics
>literally can't even form a functioning government
I don't even like the EU but that's just fucking rich
>>61703759
Yes.
I would die for it. More than I would die for France.
Long live Europe, long live European people!
>>61703759
No, because I don't support an union of countries which don't have anything to donwith each other. The name is false, the flag is meaningless, the currency is as globalistic as possible, there is a lot of bureaucracy, religion isn't accepted and Finland and Portugal are in the same union. Why would anybody want such union. As a Dutchman I feel connected to the higher countries, like Germany, Italy, Austria, etc. But my country doesn't have anything to do with Finland...
>>61706455
Jewish rabbi「Communism is false theory for Judea national liberation.」
http://inri.client.jp/hexagon/floorA6F_he/a6fhe805.html
>>61703759
If there weren't a EU, who would countries blame for their terrible policies not working out?
>>61703759
No, it's agaisnt the laws of god.
>>61706968
Themselves, because they'd actually be the ones making their own policies.
>>61703759
I did not at first, but then I got a job working for the EU and the pay and benefits are amazing
So now I do
>>61703759
The idea sucks.
Different cultures, different languages, different national identity, different history, different religions, different work ethic and life styles even shared by most of the population, it'd never work.
You'll just kill Europe by turning it into one super country where all the states are artifically glued to each other like puzzles that don't fit but you force them together.
>>61706933
fuck you piere I don't want to live in a union where the French control anything
I thought our bureaucracy and centralization was bad, but yours is completely out of this fucking world and would make the soviets blush
yes why wouldnt you want to be ruled by (((german))) lobbyists forever lol
>>61707028
Yes, only globalists and peoples who only care about $$$ want it.
>>61707030
Don't worry mate, this guy is just a EU shill.
I do. Southern Europe fiesta and siesta erryday, Northern Europe work hard for our welfare. It's the perfect union desu.
>>61707028
That's basically what happened to Italy in the 19th century.
Yeah, it kinda sucked in a lot of ways, but at least it mostly stopped foreigners from fucking with us and allowed some development.
Which is exactly what Europe needs, to stop the US and Russia to fuck with states individually and keep a steady economic growth.
>>61703759
No.
It's inevitably a neoliberal's wetdream and will destroy any semblance of the nation-state.
Authoritarian technocracy.
>>61707159
But you don't understand, the EU is US puppet.
The EU can't be trusted.
We'll all be better out of it.
I did at first. But then I saw that Merkel and Juncker created a lot of unfunded liabilities to the future European generations. They just invited millions of uneducated foreigners and expect us to pay for them for decades. I guess they thought European people would not see through this scheme. But now they have already made the UK leave the EU. To add insult to injury the Chinese are buying the most promising European companies and even some of our ports. Why should I sacrifice my work and future for these selfish politicians? I hope more countries are going to leave this union. Sadly we have to start from square one in this empire building life again because of selfish and greedy leaders.
>>61706134
>The individual states are quite different in many ways in spite of 3/4 being cultural photocopies.
No they aren't Europoor.
>>61707159
That happened with a lot of nations. But it's a bit fucking different combining close and similar nations and people into a medium-sized country than it is to combine a whole fucking continent with vastly different cultures, values, environments and languages.
It's not going to happen and that's a good thing.
>>61707213
yes because without eu our countries totally would not become puppets to either russia or usa
>>61703759
Yes, but I doubt it will happen. The idea of european federation is really old, and it had a good chance to work in the 50s. At that time a european federation with France, West germany, Italy and Benelux made sense. It was basically undoing the treaty of Verdun and restoring the carolingian empire.
Since then, things are different. The UK joined and always refused a political Europe and instead wanted a purely economic union. It's pretty funny that now the Brits obtained pretty much everything they asked for, they're getting out of the EU. Germany is also at fault. Germans allied with the Brits and understood this idea of economic union would strengthen Germany. Main reason why the EU expanded so fast after the cold war, so that Germany could take back its hinterland again.
>>61707213
>the EU is US puppet
If that were true, we'd have a much thougher stance against Russia and TTIP would have passed out of hand instead of being in the works for years.
>>61707243
>No they aren't...
...Different or cultural photocopies? It's unclear.
>>61704339
The Bureaucrats in Brussels should have very little influence 2bh
>>61706996
Countries vote to accept EU policies.
>>61703759
I want EUSSR to be real
>>61707297
You've not ever been part of the USSR or EU though.
The UN Parliament is basically continuing the unfinished work of Nimrod, the infamous tyrant, who was building the Tower of Babel to defy God.
The bible tells us that there was worldwide unity and harmony, a good thing, right? Wrong. No sooner is the whole world together then they immediately plan to overthrow God and “build a tower to Heaven”. That’s the result of bringing in World Peace without the King of Peace, Jesus Christ. We all know the story, the build the tower, make some pretty good progress right up until the moment where God confounds their speech with a multiplicity of previously unknown languages., and they are scattered. It looks like the modern-day European Union is headed for the exact same fate.
What we can expect to see from the EU on this path:
-A gradual introduction of tyranny
-The elimination of the worship of God to introduce dependence on power
-All people speaking the same language and the same religion
-Rejecting God while trying to become gods
>>61707257
It worked for the US. And it's not like Italy was all that similar either, especially from a linguistic point of view. English nowadays is far more common in Europe than italian was in Italy in 1861.
>That happened with a lot of nations.
Which is basically my point. It's literally standard nation building, opponents are more institutional loyalists than actual nationalists/patriots.
>>61707159
This "unite or die" argument is such bullshit.
Venezuela has literally no allies and hates America to the point where it does the opposite of what we want. Yet we don't invade it.
Why? Because in 2016 countries don't invade each other over anything short of existential threats. Russia only invaded Ukraine after it became apparent that the junta government would try joining NATO.
I definitely support it. Potentially it's the most powerful country in economical and military sense ever existed. For that you need a strong centralised government. Each part of the USE should't have any autonomy so they stop chimping out.
>>61707322
That was just a meme game I had in V2, Colgate
>>61707102
I'm just sincere.
I am paid to do way more productive things than shitposting on the internet.
>>61707351
I'm sure there are plans to invade pretty much every country ready in the US, and we won't know that they exist until like 50 years from now
>>61707297
this.
i don't wanna be governed by French And German Bureaucracy
>>61707262
They weren't before WW2.
This assumption that "united we are stronger" has been proven by the EU to be a lie.
>>61707351
You're being stupid and you know it. It's not about military invasion, it's about economic and cultural subjugation.
The economic aspect alone should be enough to push all europeans to support the united continent idea tbqh.
>>61707393
>EU
>united
I agree with the rest though.
>>61707267
>If that were true, we'd have a much thougher stance against Russia
How could you be any tougher?
>and TTIP would have passed out of hand instead of being in the works for years.
Maybe with a few cucked countries (UK) but definitely not with Spain, Italy, and France.
TTIP is taking forever because America is pressing its advantage. The current text is literally cucking the entire EU.
>>61707262
>>61707267
>>61707374
All country will be enslaved by the EU.
This will only brings bad things.
Plus we are country, not state.
I think it's make sense to wanting to take order from a bunch of corrupted politicians of the EU.
>>61707393
>This assumption that "united we are stronger" has been proven by the EU to be a lie.
Yeah right, as shown by Switzerland and Norway becoming the EU's bitches and the massive differences in equity between trade deals negotiated by the EU compared to individual nations.
>>61707420
>Let's be economically subjugated by the EU so nobody else can economically subjugate us!
>>61707294
>Countries vote to accept EU policies.
No the people do not.
>>61707213
That's why USA undermined in any conceivable way European construction this whole time.
That's why they flipped out when their trojan horse ((((Great))) Britain) decide to left.
>>61707446
All politician are corrupt in some extent.
EU is not the problem and if there is a problem, it should be adressed in some way that don't need the "auto-destruction" button to be pressed.
At last I truly see.
>>61707474
what is a representative democracy
>>61707494
It's shit, that's what it is
>>61707494
Not the EU.
thank god only autists on 4chan that have played too many Paradox games and a handful of bureaucrats actually want this shit
>>61707348
>It worked for the US
Yeah because almost all of them were descendants of the British. They shared a language, culture and values.
>English nowadays is far more common in Europe than italian was in Italy in 1861
There is no way in which you could peacefully force the people of Europe to abandon their languages. Not to mention how fucking horrible the nation is to begin with. It's an affront to everything that is holy and beautiful.
Secondly, while not everyone spoke Italian they spoke something similar to it, like Sardinian.
There is no guarantee that a EU superstate would be any better of than many nations. And you'd essentially wipe out thousands of years of history to MAYBE be slightly more influential in the world. It's disgusting to even think of. You can take your neolib marxism and shove it up your ass for all I and most other Europeans care.
>>61707551
When was the last referendum in the US?
>>61707459
But we are the EU you moron, can you be subjugated to yourself? This is literally the problem here, for some reason you people consider the EU some kind of foreign power.
Actually you as a swiss have a point here, since you're literally the EU's bitch, but that's your own fault for refusing to join: all the disadvantages, none of the control.
>>61707445
>Maybe with a few cucked countries (UK) but definitely not with Spain, Italy, and France.
Top kek. Once you get to the few cucked ones, the market differences would force the others to accept too, else they'd be excluded.
>>61707490
The US supports the EU more than anybody, stop talking out of your ass you paranoid frog.
>>61707554
so will you give back the money given to you by the EU?
>>61707490
The EU apply laws we do not want.
-2005 referendum was ignored.
-Loi travail come from brussels.
-All this migrants quotas is another horrible idea.
-The EU is most likely anti-farmer
-The EU want to ban ALL GUNS.
This is just an example of shit things the EU do.
>>61707579
> all the disadvantages, none of the control
They're literally one the most prosperous and free countries in Europe you dumb cunt.
How much are you paid for shilling this hard, terrone?
>>61703759
>>61707622
if it weren't for the EU to back you up you would have already been in a debt crisis much worse than you already are.
>>61707420
Not at all. We don't need to endure another "migration period" for a single market. At the moment the EU exists because powerful people want to control the Euro. The closer you are to the money printing source the more influence you have (as long as the system works and enough uneducated people (migrants) enslave themselves for you)
Now the European Central Bank starts printing money and loaning it to European companies. A few unelected people actually decide which companies receive the money that actually belongs to the Eurozone population.
tl;dr Europeans are being enslaved by the EU
>>61707579
>All the disadvantages, none of the control
As opposed to all the disadvantages, still none of the control, and having to get rid of the swiss franc? No thanks.
And what disadvantages beyond freedom of movement of workers? Contrary to what you believe, we aren't the EU's bitch. We adopt most of its standards voluntarily, because by all accounts they're pretty good.
>>61707571
Makes you think..
>>61707579
>Once you get to the few cucked ones, the market differences would force the others to accept too, else they'd be excluded.
Tell that to China with TPP. They don't join and therefore all the countries in RCEP aren't joining TPP.
>>61707717
The US voting system is fucking stupid. Why not just count every vote and rid yourself of gerrymandering and less than democratic election outcomes.
>>61707673
Really makes you think
>>61707567
>Yeah because almost all of them were descendants of the British. They shared a language, culture and values.
Yeah brit americans were literally a minority by 1900. Germans, irish, italians, slavs, etc flooded in.
>Secondly, while not everyone spoke Italian they spoke something similar to it, like Sardinian.
You literally mentioned a totally non mutually intelligible language with modern italian. And the same goes for venetian, piedmontese, sicilian, neapolitan, etc. In fact, northern dialects are linguistically closer to french and catalan than they are to italian proper.
>There is no guarantee that a EU superstate would be any better of than many nations. And you'd essentially wipe out thousands of years of history to MAYBE be slightly more influential in the world.
Why the fuck would I wipe away anything? What is gonna get wiped away? Your delusions?
>>61707641
They still have to comply with basically any EU regulation, in spite of having no say whatsoever on EU legislation.
>>61707710
>having to get rid of the swiss franc
You could just not peg your currency to the euro. That way you would not be eligible to introduce the euro. That's what we've been doing ever since the euro was introduced and why we'll never introduce it.
>>61707674
I don't think so, we can live without the EU.
>>61707764
America is not a democracy.
I appreciate and am jealous of the UK.
>>61704789
>Lemme tell you about YOUR union
>>61707599
>the EU is the same thing as the UNITED STATES OF GROSSEUROPA that a bunch of teenagers on a Japanese imageboard want to create
yeah no fuck off
>>61707758
China is comparable to the EU as a whole, not France or Germany tho. The fact that they can influence their whole sphere against you confirms my argument that Europe needs to either grow to that level of influence, or become a puppet.
>>61707803
>Yeah brit americans were literally a minority by 1900. Germans, irish, italians, slavs, etc flooded in.
Guess how many states were founded by then.
>>61706820
>EU
>globalism
>>61707896
You have to take the good with the bad.
No disadvantages, no advantages.
>>61707920
It literally is a global identity being put ahead of the interests of national identity.
>>61707920
>international trans-continental economic-political unions aren't globalism
retarded toad uploader
>>61707710
>We adopt most of its standards voluntarily, because by all accounts they're pretty good.
No, you do it because otherwise you'd be uncompetitive compared to your neighbours.
Regardless, if you're ok with the regulations and with Schengen, why are you even against the EU for? There's literally nothing else to bitch about.
>>61707904
The country is completely controlled by the Han Chinese ethnic group. So do you agree that we can get rid of foreigners to create our "China"? Only real Europeans are allowed in influential positions.
>>61707940
No, we literally don't, go drown in your swamp you pussywhipped German vassal.
>>61707907
How does that matter? You still had to deal with tens of millions of people with different ethnic backgrounds and ways living (yeah because we live all that different here compared to France, or everywhere else in Europe). It would be the same as Europe.
>>61707949
No, it's a continental identity.
The irony of all these people who seriously think the EU is globalist is the fact that without it their country would just be even more influence by other countries that aren't even on their own side of the planet earth.
>>61707984
Are you asking me if I want the niggers out? Is this a trick question? Who the fuck even wants to keep the niggers coming?
Just to be clear: yes, I want Europe for europeans only.
>>61707957
Standards are useful, who'd have thought? Just because they're good because everyone accepts them doesn't make them any less good.
OP didn't ask about the EU. He asked about an USE.
Schengen is great, freedom of movement of workers is bearable, the economic regulations are probably (not an economist) profitable for all involved. It's the idea of apolitical union I find shit.
>>61708025
>continental identity
I literally do not have a single thing in common with Italians besides Catholicism, which means I have as much in common with you as a Mexican or an Argentine. Continental identity is a meme and you should stop spouting it as if it means anything because it doesn't and it never has.
>>61707998
>Get money
>Get protection
>Opt out of most disadvantages (refugees being the prime example)
Poland probably gets the most out of the EU after Germany.
>>61708069
*of a political union
An apolitical union would be great. Just the common market and none of that other shit.
>>61707803
>by 1900
Who the fuck cares? The nation was already formed and the people that had moved in had mostly integrated into society.
>You literally mentioned a totally non mutually intelligible language
They all originate from latin though. It's a lot easier to transition from Sardinian than it would be from, say, Swedish.
>Why the fuck would I wipe away anything?
That's what you are suggesting with language. And when you don't speak the language or similar language of your ancestors you effectively lock yourself out from your own history.
>>61707863
The UK system is pretty fucked, too. UKIP got one (1) seat from ~3.9 million votes which is roughly 13% of the voters.
>>61708069
>Just because they're good because everyone accepts them doesn't make them any less good.
Yeah but see if the next ones are bad, and everyone still enforces them, are you not going to and cut yourself out of the market? No you aren't.
>It's the idea of apolitical union I find shit.
And how is that a necessary conclusion of the USE concept? OP himself asked what kind of political model would you like the USE to have.
You've been jumping to conclusions.
>>61707622
>2005 referendum was ignored.
By Nicolas Sarkozy.
>Loi travail come from brussels
Yes, there is absolutely no need for reform in France. We absolutely don't live in a stagnating country with no jobs.
>All this migrants quotas is another horrible idea.
Yes. But if one day frontex finally work, it will be way easier to control migrants infllux.
>The EU is most likely anti-farmer
Well, at least they keep them alive with money. It's a better solution than just closing the market and living on our own food supplies because our farmer can't compete with spanish and eastern yurop farmers.
>The EU want to ban ALL GUNS.
I'm pretty sure most people in France are okay with our current law and they are already extremly harsh. Not that I consider that a good things but I don't hide behind a national opinion.
Europe is not perfect. Europe need to be improved, not destroyed. Killing Europe (or just leave it powerless) will not resolve these problems.
>>61703759
No. Why? Because 428 years of sovereignty and not getting dragged into european bs because of neutrality., that's why.
>>61708014
>It would be the same as Europe.
No, it wouldn't. Because the people of different ethnic backgrounds already fucking live here in their own little enclaves. There's a HUGE fucking difference and I pity you for not being able to comprehend it.
>>61708150
You act like Switzerland and India don't exist.
Nothing prevents other languages from existing locally just because there is an official one above them. Regardless, it's not like english isn't contaminating evetything already anyway.
>>61708068
Just testing your integrity. If we emulate China it means good bye to Multikulti.
>>61708098
>Religion
>Geographical location
>History
>Economic System
>Political System
>NATO
>Ethnic backgrounds
>A common cultural and spiritual heritage derived from Greco-Roman antiquity, Christianity, the Renaissance and its Humanism, the political thinking of the Enlightenment, and the French Revolution, and the developments of Modernity, including all types of socialism
>I have nothing in common with you
Yeah okay kid.
>>61708102
>get country demolished by Germans, Russians, and their collaborators
>their collaborators tell me on the internet 70 years later that I must join the Forth Rei- ahem United States of Europe or else the the tiny amount of EU reparation money that is part of our GDP will go away as if we owe you anything
FUCK OFF
U
C
K
O
F
F
>>61708229
Senpai I want to say goodbye to multikulti regardless of the direction we go towards.
>>61708180
>vereignty and not getting dragged into european bs because of neutrality., that's why.
>>61708156
>no you aren't
There's still a choice. If the EU offers a deal that is too good to refuse, does accepting it make us its bitch? I say no.
>And how is that a necessary conclusion of the USE concept?
Can you really call it an USE if it doesn't have at least a single army and foreign policy?
Here on the Alps we hate the people in the valley nearby and barely accept them
The idea of a USE is absolutely absurd to me
>>61708230
>>Geographical location
meaningless
>>History
almost no historical interaction between Poland and Italy
>>Economic System
not exclusive to Europe
>>Political System
not exclusive to Europe
>>NATO
not exclusive to Europe
>>Ethnic backgrounds
no
>>A common cultural and spiritual heritage derived from Greco-Roman antiquity, Christianity, the Renaissance and its Humanism, the political thinking of the Enlightenment, and the French Revolution, and the developments of Modernity, including all types of socialism
a lot of buzzwords and things that aren't exclusive to Europe there, are you going to start posting pictures of random cathedrals next, that's usually how it goes with you people, isn't it?
>>61708207
American immigrants self segregated too, Sven. They self segregated so much that the germans wanted to make german the official language of various states at one point.
Segregation isn't a bad thing, it keeps conflicts to a minimum.
>>61708250
leave, see what happens.
>>61708344
Not when you have segregation within the fucking same city
Then it's called ghetto, and it's usually really bad and incites violence and conflict
>>61708284
Yes, I did not say never, I implied in general.
>>61708297
>Can you really call it an USE if it doesn't have at least a single army and foreign policy?
Yeah nevermind I posted before your correction, I thought you were talking of an apolitical (aka undemocratic) EU.
But still you're full of shit anon, you want a common market, which is already horribly intrusive of national sovereignty, but not any kind of political collaboration? Why even.
>>61708362
Yes we should.
>>61708399
So you're saying that we're actually in a better situation to deal with our divesity than the US were? Thank you for supporting my argument.
>>61708362
>lose 4% of our GDP
>...
>...
>...
>wow that wasn't so bad
But naw, I think I'd rather stick around so you and your pals in Germany can keep repairing what you destroyed. Hope you're enjoying Merkel taking over your armed forces.
>>61708323
>>Geographical location
>meaningless
>Geographical proximity between states that facilitates exchange of goods, services, labour and socio-political relations is meaningless
Okay I see now, you're a retard. I'm wasting my time here trying to convince you otherwise so I'm just gonna call it quits here and leave you to wallow in your retarded 19th century style Nationalistic ideology. Go ahead and spout "not an argument" and "haha running away" or whatever all you want, I'm not even gonna bother responding.
>>61708452
[only people with an understanding of economics can read this. Please educate yourself.]
>>61704232
>What do you think is the best form of government such a union would have to work the best?
It can only work if it becomes a true democracy. Otherwise people will just reject it.
Not a puppet of 28 disagreeing member states like it is right now.
>>61707710
you are delusional.
you are completely at EUs mercy.
If we really wanted, we could build a wall around Swiss and let you guys starve. A country completely engulfed by another country cant be independant
>>61708479
The way the US deals with diversity is utter shit
The way EU deals with diversity is mild shit
I think my cunts geopolitic plan shifted from "sneakily try and rule EU" to "sneakily let EU fail and take over the wreckage"
not sure what that means for me, might move to Canada or Aussieland
>>61708515
I'm in favour of a republican dictatorship
>>61708500
haha, if you left the EU, you would become Russians bitch
>>61708571
Then you won't have an EU anymore in 15 years.
>>61708504
literally not an argument
you also have plenty of geographic proximity and historical ties to North Africa, why not go make a superstate with them and leave the rest of us alone.
>>61708528
You need Switzerland far more than Switzerland needs you
We are in a position of geostrategical relevance.
That's why EU lobbysts shilled so hard to swing the swiss population to vote in favour of the doubling of the Gotthard tunnel
>>61708528
And the US could band together with the French and the Brits and conquer Germany without any real problems.
>>61708509
>Implying EU is the same as the european economic zone.
>Implying more countries threatening to leave would not break the god awful political union.
[only people who have an understanding of facts can read the rest of this. Please educate yourself or go back to le reddit]
>>61708567
>bongland
>less then half personality
Step it up senpie.
>>61708600
>the EU is NATO
This post could only ever come from a German.
>>61708556
The EU doesn't really deal with ethnic diversity at all. The focus is on non euros, and those should just be made to fuck right off anyway.
There isn't really any need for EU involvement in individual cultures, the union is there for economic and diplomatic policy.
>>61708652
>I thought it was perception
kek, ty FO
>>61708620
I dont really see what point you are trying to make?
That people would care enough about Switzerland to invide Germany? Hardly.
That Germany and France, best buddies and both in the EU, would wage war? Hardly
>>61708622
>more countries threatening to leave
>facts
Even the fucking brits are backpedalling. Get a grip on reality.
>guys in the car are European politicians
>girl behind the counter is the Brexit voters
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/6826353/3f4df646/juiste_reactie_op_een_prank.html
Hungaria will have another referendum on 2 oktober..
>>61706191
>Because it's not Polish
how is that a problem?
there are more important differences between people within a nation than between foreigners with similar level of education, intelligence and relative income
in this one matter, Marx was right - people are divided by class more than they are by nationality
>>61708622
Haha let's just kill our main sources of income haha it's not like we're surrounded by 3 big countries haha let's just do it what are you a leftie haha just give up on your rights.
>>61708679
USA doesn't really give a shit about Poland.
Should America become more isolitionist, or should their relations with Russia improve, you are screwed.
And even the way it is, you would become a third world shithole again, because neither EU nor Russia would trade with you
>>61708701
You think Germany, of all countries, could act aggressively towards a european bordering country, that has been neutral for the past half millenium, where american, and not only, industries and bank accounts are based, without heavy, dreadful repercussions?
>>61708701
I was making a point that proposing an absurd scenario (like the EU walling of an important north-south-route) doesn't make the ones losing in that scenario not independent.
>>61708528
>If we really wanted, we could build a wall around Swiss and let you guys starve
I'm not the same guy but you must be delusional as well. You're just as interdependent as Switzerland. If some countries stopped exporting food to Europe you would be starved to death. But nobody who is already starving to death himself would risk or want that. Just like only the dumbest country bordering Switzerland would stop trading with us. Both sides lose. And don't act like the EU is not completely divided already.
>>61708716
>Italy
>Being pro EU
Everytime. Also, almost all political parties either want to leave the political union or want serious reform. The same goes for the parties in Denmark en Finland after the brexit. "Even the fucking brits are backpedalling" you mean not invoking article 50? That is politics. The british government first needs to get a prime minister first.
>>61708616
Without Switzerland, EU loses a bit money
Without EU, Switzerland loses any possiblity to make trade with foreign countries.
I wonder who has more leverage
>>61708825
Leverage isn't everything. It's all about how it's applied.
>>61708756
>Having the inabillity to read.
It is not about leaving the EU, it is about leaving the political union. Why can't you stupid morons not get this through your thick skull? We must go back to the EEG.
>>61708766
t. German American foreign policy expert
You are useless as an ally and always have been, you are nothing more than a military base. Shut your mouth.
>>61708743
Fuck off commie cunt
>>61708799
what? EU is self sufficient regarding food.
We even have a high overproduction in our agrarian sector.
>>61708792
I was just pointing out how a country fully engufled in another country count be fully independant. At the end of the day, you must relay on EU goodwill to let you trade with foreign nations.
>>61708768
We are talking about EU, not Germany. And sure, it would bring EU some bad press if it walled off Switzerland, but ultimativly, nobody would care enough to intervene
>>61703759
I'm against it, because this can't work.
The german mentality is too different from for example the greek one, or the one of the poles. We have to many different views on topics like russia etc and the state would be inefficient.
I also want to keep the last bit of national culture we have and I don't want to swap it for some shit made up by these idiots in belgium.
>>61708817
>Everytime
What's so weird about it?
>want serious reform
So what? So do I. That is literally the exact opposite of wanting the union to go away.
>That is politics. The british government first needs to get a prime minister first.
Yeah, and why is that? Because all potential candidates ran away at the prospect of being associated to such a drastic blunder. Especially those who pushed the most for it.
The brits aren't leaving, they're just gonna sacrifice a couple of semi relevant faces and keep going as if remain had won.
Not at all, because it would escalate to a point where having a government in each country would be useless and one central government just wouldn't work. We are just too different.
>>61708825
Without Switzerland, trade between northern and southern EU is fucked
Without Switzerland, EU loses access to the CERN
Switzerland could probably successfully defeat the german army in a war
the UK is the 4th main foreign economy for Switzerland, and soon they won't even be part of the EU anyway
Only the Swiss plateau citizens even depend on EU economy, Switzerland is economically strong enough to stand on its own
Losing Switzerland is simply a loss the EU cannot afford
Losing the EU would be a matter of survival for us
>>61708927
Switzerland isn't engulfed by another country. The EU isn't one yet.
>>61708825
Some of your states would be immediately in deficit and debt. For example BW. And who finances the rest of Germany? You didn't think this through did you.
>>61708876
you are just mad cause its true.
America doesnt give a shit about polish life, for them you are just another eastern european shithole, like ukraine or kosovo.
And your economic wellbeeing is completely dependant on your EU membership
>>61708927
>the EU is "letting" non-EU European countries trade with foreign nations
>>61708756
Geeh, the Netherlands controls Europe's biggest harbor, biggest oil company, biggest oil traders, biggest investors, biggest gas field, biggest uranium enricher and we're the biggest food exporter.
They can try to fuck us over lol.
>>61708852
>Leverage isn't everything.
It's not everything, but it's most.
You can't be so delusional as to think you can apply it better enough as to overcome your massive disadvantage.
>>61709024
We did. We got a very favourable deal with the EU, despite apparently having so very little leverage.
>>61707159
>Which is exactly what Europe needs, to stop the US and Russia to fuck with states individually and keep a steady economic growth.
LOL
Finland has been in a stagnant economic state since 2008. Don't fucking pull that BUT MUH ECONOMIC GROWTH BECAUSE OF EU shit.
>>61708999
>be bavarian
>literally poorer than poland without northern germany
>>61708986
Its a single market though and it applies sanctions as a whole, see russia
>>61708979
>Losing Switzerland is simply a loss the EU cannot afford
>Switzerland: we want to renegotiate immigration laws
>EU: no free immigration, no single market acess
It sounds to me that you vastly overestimate your own importance
>>61708999
We would have some debt. You would turn into a third world country
>>61709044
And now you are about to lose your deal because your retarded population vote to cut the immigration, and the referendum was bindig
>>61709062
I think you're misreading the map.
Bayern is a giver-state. They pay more than the rest combined.
>>61708938
>What's so weird about it?
Because mediterranean corrupt shit holes, togehter with the parasites from eastern europe are the reason this union exists in this form.
>The brits aren't leaving, they're just gonna sacrifice a couple of semi relevant faces and keep going as if remain had won.
They will leave the political union, but not the european economic zone. Juncker and co just frame it like this because they are sore losers and infantile.
>>61709021
We won't be the biggest exporter if there are import tariffs
There are alternatives to the Rotterdam haven.
gas field is almost dried up and what is it worth anyways.
And most importantly, we're a nation of just 17 million on a speck of land with a joke military. We'll just be conquered in the next major war for the harbor.
>UK to the North
>France to the South
>Germany to the East
Ah yes we're truly in the position to get uppity.
>>61709062
I dont think you understand that image, friend
>>61709126
We're about to lose part of our deal. The bilaterals 1 are not everything.
>>61709001
>And your economic wellbeeing is completely dependant on your EU membership
blatantly false. Go crawl back up Mama Merkel's butthole you teutonic troglodyte.
>>61703759
>Do you support the idea of the United Europe under Germany?
no
>>61709094
>You would turn into a third world country
Switzerland has alway been one m8
>>61709094
The EU will accept new deals with Switzerland, especially now that it's at risk of fragmentating more than ever
We might turn in a third world country if the EU decided to blockade us, but the EU can't afford us to become a third world country
>>61707579
>This is literally the problem here, for some reason you people consider the EU some kind of foreign power.
Well to be honest it IS a foreign power. I don't remember Finland's capital city being in fucking Brussels.
>>61709146
Without the UK we're now the fifth economy of the EU. And we have the UK and the USA at our side. We'll live.
>>61709160
You are about to break your obligation, so no more deal for you
>>61703759
>Do you support the idea of the United States of Europe?
No.
>Why or why not.
Because I support democracy. It's the holiest thing in the world.
>>61709213
Plus Germany can't afford to be mean to us. We supply their entire economy.
>>61709224
I'd be willing to call that bluff. The EU isn't going to end fourty years of mutual trade, especially not when they can save face by just scrapping the treaties they have to anyway.
>>61709199
>EU tells Swiss no single market access if no free movement of citizens
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens
>>61709146
We still out rank france and britain in victories over them considering history. You do realise that we came with the EEG idea right to improve our sales and exports, but that we did not want any of this shit?
>>61709062
Uhm. The map actually means Bavaria and BW are financing all the other Bundesländer.
>>61709094
That might be. But what are the second and third oder consequences? Some German regions would probably want to break free for such a North Korea tier decision. Economic ideas are the only thing holding the EU together atm (and it didn't even work with the UK). So the EU would weaken it's main idea even more, the economic integration.
>>61709253
>germans wanting to break apart an organisation designed to boost their economy
tip top lel
>>61704789
Bingo, you hit the nail on the head friend. There is nothing but the path to horror under the EU. The entire time people will become aclimated to it and except it as the norm. Until it is to late and people realize they have sacrificed everything for a autocracy.
>>61709213
US-UK relations have cooled following the Brexit referendum. There is no reason why they wouldn't if we were to leave the EU. I reckon the US will soon not be in a position to care about other countries, anyways.
The 'LOL IT'LL BE FINE JUST DO IT' argument might have worked for Britain because they're so detached from reality but I don't think it will work on the dutch.
>>61709318
*second and third order consequences
>>61709286
Haha, go ahead and fuck your ecnomy because you wanna play chicken with the biggest single market in the world
>>61707920
fucking retard
>>61709044
You got the same deal as everyone else. It's very favourable because that's the point of deals between EU nations.
>>61709048
Finland joined the EU 13 years before your economic stagnation started. It may be that the EU isn't the reason for it, have you considered it?
>>61709293
The world is ruled by globalist capitalists, and Switzerland not turning into a shithole is in the top places of their list
Sorry bud, we're here to stay
The EU will backpedal, we will get new deals, and so will the UK
Nothing can stop the progress of the economy, no one can stop it
>>61709328
It doesn't matter. If the people don't accept the EU then it's doomed to fail. And we're in a position to pull the plug out of the EU. And if they keep it up we eventually will.
>>61709328
I don't really get this US argument that the anti-EU lot makes
>my country didn't elect EU buerocrats
>so its better to leave the EU and depend on the goodwill of America. I am sure USA wont abuse our total dependancy on them
>>61709138
>Because mediterranean corrupt shit holes, togehter with the parasites from eastern europe are the reason this union exists in this form.
Yeah right, Italy is the bully in Europe, we get everything we want while fucking you poor german victims in the ass right? What a fucking delusional moron you are.
>They will leave the political union, but not the european economic zone.
Why would they ever be allowed to. Especially now that the leave leadership has left the scene and bregret has become a thing.
>>61709406
Those "globalist" couldn't care less about your tiny country.
Thats why they did nothing as America forced you into lifting your bank secret
I don't think you realize that you are a very little country and that you are very dependant on the goodwill of the EU
>>61709327
>yfw smaller nations in the EU are constantly fucked in the ass in the present too since they hold no political clout, can do fuck all in the political process and are reduced as "supporting votes" for the big guys in the union
>>61709386
EU certainly doesn't help it with all the faggotry that went down during the eurocrisis. EU doesn't help with the logistical costs that have to be paid if you want a product from Finland. Last year EU forced Baltic Sea nations to only use diesel in the ships by a directive which raised logistics costs 20-30%. So incidentally finnish exports are now 20-30% costlier because they still have to be brought into the centre by ships. This creates pressure for the firms to relocate to the centre where it's easier to deliver shit to the rest of Europe.
>>61709208
Karelia's capital city isn't in fucking Helsinki either, yet karelians don't call the finnish government foreign.
>>61709316
>>61709270
Do you guys really want to be low-hanging fruit?
The EU is key to the survival of the dutch nation. If the current trend continues we'll not only be in the union but also have a more than significant say in the matters.
We're not in the golden age anymore, but we can still be powerful as part of a union, where we will forever have a seat on top-level decisions.
>>61709420
Real reform has to be made, but I'd rather go through a few years of mud than being low-hanging fruit from here on forth.
>>61709318
>be bavarian
>have to pay for all the lazy multiculti northerners
>>61709496
>being so delusional
I just need to cross my arms and see time go by, and jack off to my country ever expanding market and GDP and standards of life
>>61709555
please do tell what cultural, linguistic or other ties I share with Brussels, I can name many for Helsinki
t. Karelian
>>61709581
muhh influence
Literally who cares. Without Europe we can stop the migration of anti-western shits. We can control our own tax regime without Brussels trying to make it fair for our competition. We don't have to worry about other countries controlling our pensions. We can just be free again and solve all our daily problems in a pragmatic fashion.
>>61709496
Interesting that you bring the US into this. Germany is nothing but its lapdog. I mean they wanted to strengthen their car industry, so the Volkswagen scandal was fabricated. And your population jumped right on the bandwagon and started to hate its own company. And you want to starve us to death. KEK
>>61703759
No because my country is one of the ones getting fucked the most by this EU wetdream, a 3 million people 5times smaller country(Lithuania) is getting as much EU funds as us, a 20 million population country. I mean i get the whole give a hand after you're on your feet but where is the fairness in this? We are far worse off than them yet we are getting squat shit, Poland is getting 10 times what we get yet they also have a far better standard of living than us. In exchange the Austrians are buying up all of our forests to cut and take, the french and german own our automobil industry, greece, Italy and the Netherlands rape our food Industry with cheap imports, EU susidies get stolen up and further corruption(of course the EU knows this but to get a deal like this you need to grease a few hands), let's not even mention thefact that all foreing companies dealing in Romania are working from tax havens so they create contribute 0 taxes to Romania, lets not even mention the tens of millions lost in wage taxes from people emigrating, there are now more pensioners in Romania than there are Employees. The EU is overall a disastrous deal for Romania and for most eastern european countries, any cunt that is not the same level as the major EU cunts is losing far more than they are getting
TLD;R THE EU IS A SCAM MADE BY GERMANY, FRACE, NETHERLANDS AND FURTHERED BY THE UK
>>61709716
political influence has a direct correlation with prosperity.
Anyone else see the irony of EU just being a front for German dominance with all other nations individually not being able to make any substantive reforms to the Union.
>>61709619
Quite frankly, the fact alone that you have representation on equal ground there disqualifies any claim of foreignness.
>>61709478
>Especially now that the leave leadership has left the scene and bregret has become a thing
Meme's. You also dont even know what's happening.
>Yeah right, Italy is the bully in Europe, we get everything we want while fucking you poor german victims in the ass right? What a fucking delusional moron you are.
>Implying mediterranean corrupt shit holes haven't cooked their books when applying for membership.
>Implying people lived above their pay grade for decades .
>Implying populists like Berlusconi were not in power the entire. time and the guy wasn't even seriously convicted in a obvious corrupt trail.
>Implying you, and your olive friends down south, do not benefit the most from subsidies paid for by us.
>Implying you realise this is a culture problem that can only be fixed if you finally have a financially healthy mindset of hard work and humbleness.
>Implying the Netherlands and nordic countries expect sweden want to be part of such a politcal union.
Fuck off mario. Also, are you from the south of Italy?
>>61709741
Being a West European country outside of the EU has a direct correlation with prosperity.
>>61709792
name 1
>>61709820
Norway.
>>61709766
>Implying you, and your olive friends down south, do not benefit the most from subsidies paid for by us.
We don't, you delusional moron. Our contibutions to the EU far outweight the subsidies we receive. Fuck off back to pol with your ignorance.
>>61709820
Switzerland.
>>61709839
North Europe
>>61709847
Central Europe
>>61709839
>>61709847
They both follow all EU law. They're basically non voting members.
>>61709846
>We don't, you delusional moron
>Citation needed
Even so, my other points still stand.
>>61709728
And that's why I want a stronger, more unified EU.
USA can bully Germany, but they cant bully an united and strong EU
>>61709870
>Hurr durr my geography is slightly different
Fuck off, some Atlas say germany is in central europe other in west. The point still stands.
>>61709875
Not really. They can pick and choose in which areas they want access to the market or prefer to do their own thing.
>>61709048
>fuck up your economy
>muh EU
>>61709875
This is a lie, Mario. They follow some regulations as part of certain trade agreements, but they do not fall under EU law and such. They aren't even part of of EU.
>>61704789
LOL
Beaurocrats are experts in their fields, they have the knowledge to make the best decisions. But, hurr durr... Democracy!!!
You fucking spaztics, firstly the MEPs are elected, fucking vote for them why the hell do you think Farage was a MEP? Someone voted him in.
Secondly, we have for example a parliamentary democracy in the UK. Direct democracy doesn't work. It leads to tragedies, like the Brexit. Misinformed retards who vote with their gut feeling always cause bad results. This is why we have a Parliament and an unelected House of Lords. These people make decisions based on years of experience in their respective fields. Many other vote according to whatever
Personal anecdote from the day after the referendum.
> Hey anon don't be upset over Brexit, at least now England will be kicked out of the Euro. They are so tragic.
Some people can't even tell the difference from football tournament based on a landmass, Europe, and a union of states, the EU. And these people are actually voting and help shape the country, into a turd.
![140514b-page-001[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/98Dkd2w.jpg "140514b-page-001[1].jpg")
>>61709879
Like this shit isn't posted every single time this moronic claim is put forward.
>Even so, my other points still stand.
"Hurr durr ur lazy" isn't an point.
>>61709928
Yeah, and they chose to be the exact same as their neighbours. Which goes to show that their prosperity has no correlation whatsoever with not being in the EU.
>>61709766
>>Implying mediterranean corrupt shit holes haven't cooked their books when applying for membership.
Germany and France violated the treaty just like Greece btw. But nobody cared because it's Germany and France.
>In 2002, the German government had other things on its mind than examining Greece's public finances. It was having troubles of its own, with the European Commission threatening to send a warning to Berlin. Germany was expected to borrow more than had been forecast, thereby exceeding the allowed 3 percent of GDP limit for its budget deficit. The result was not, however, an example of German fiscal discipline and exemplary adherence to European rules, but a two-year battle by the Schröder administration against the slap on the wrist from Brussels.
>Few within the European Commission openly criticized the loosening of the Maastricht rules. And the Germans, together with the French -- both facing the threat of an excessive debt procedure -- were too busy undermining the Maastricht Treaty. The two countries, determined not to submit to sanctions, managed to secure a majority in the EU's Council of Economic and Finance Ministers to cancel the European Commission's sanction procedure. It was a serious breach of the rules whose consequences would only become apparent later.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-ticking-euro-bomb-how-the-euro-zone-ignored-its-own-rules-a-790333.html
And we all witnessed how Merkel violated Schengen last year. Germany in 2016 is tantamount to a gambling addicted alcoholic bully.
>>61709992
>they do not fall under EU law
Correct, they fall under treaties with the same exact shit in them as EU law, because the common market is essential to their prosperity and they know it.
Going to vote for Wilders in 2017.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_48JNlRIERw
>>61707333
> The bible
seriously get that fuck off
>>61709755
>representation on equal ground
where are my 96 MEPs then? Finland only has 13. hardly equal, hardly fair, seems like it's kind of a vassal state arrangement where the vassal is given enough power to stay complacent
>>61703759
>Do you support the idea of the United States of Europe?
No, Europe not care about our national interests. We were before in multinational groups and it never went well.
>What do you think is the best form of government such a union would have to work the best?
direct democracy without middleman ie. governments of national states. USE would have to create common bland European identity and kill national states because people can't be loyal to two governments.
>>61710117
>where are my 96 MEPs then?
Where are your 80m finns?
>>61709997
Why such a hard on for aristocracy anon. Elitist detected.
>>61704232
Why are Czechs (and over small countries) in Europe obsessed with the idea of a Federal Europe? I've never met a Czech against the EU.
>>61709740
>our corrupt shit politicians steal EU's money
>MUH EVULLL EU
>>61710158
you said equal representation, 96 and 13 is not equal, 83 MEPs' difference in political power is fucking humongous, that's why the union is so fucked for its small yet prosperous nations. All the head kicking with no funding to show for it.
>>61710042
I totally agree, but was talking about Mario land in this case. When I look back my country started all this bs. We should have prosecuted our politicians that still pushed all that shit through even the Dutch voted No against the treaty of Maastricht.
>>61710321
Dat was het verdrag van Lisbon.
>>61710216
There's an inverse correlation between being positive towards the EU and GDP per capita.
>>61710216
Have you ever met a czech that's not from praha or the next two biggest cities?
>>61710053
>Correct, they fall under treaties with the same exact shit in them as EU law, because the common market is essential to their prosperity and they know it.
BS circular inconsistent logic is circular and inconsistend. Most of the treaties free countries like Norway and Switzerland made with the EU are economic in nature and those that imply laws are minimised and mostly things these countries already did anyway. What sets them apart is that they can make up their own immigration policies, do not have to deal with mostly leftist bs from the political union and (in the future) can make up their own fiscal policy. Face it Mario, the EU as it stands is a disaster. Also, you are probably from the south of Italy which would make sense.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1390808/wolfgang-schauble-germany-spills-the-beans-on-chancellor-admitting-threats-were-only-made-because-osborne-asked-them-to/
>>61710357
Het Verdrag van Maastricht (officieel het Verdrag betreffende de Europese Unie, kortweg EU-Verdrag) werd ondertekend op 7 februari 1992 en diende ter oprichting van de Europese Unie.
