What would be the benefots of a federal EU for an ordinary citizen? Wouldn't it just funnel cash from its wealthier states to the shitholes? Also how could a Central European MEP or Commission member hope to have any clue about its fringe members and their problems? Wouldn't it just be 4th Reich in effect and neglect the citizens of its smaller states like Baltics? How could the government of such a thing be organized so that corporations don't fuck up its legislative process with lobbying (for example no consumer and worker rights representatives were allowed in TTIP negotiations, only lobbyists and corporate affiliates)? How would they prevent their fringe members having unprecedented immigration to the centre of the Union? How would it organize its taxation so that it isn't designed to rob the wealthier members and redistribute it to the shitholes? What rights would a state have and would the amount of MEPs still be decided by proportional system instead of a fair 2-per state system? How would such a union ensure that no nationality feel left out and marginalized by Brussels' decisionmaking? Would it try to pritect unique cultures of Europe or mold them into one big, nameless and faceless blob like Brazilians or Americans are? How can it ensure the survival of small and unique languages?
Can some EU-phile explain please?
bumping so we can have serious discussions
we could have serious discussioning's pls respond ;-;
bump so this doesn't get buried under that Aussie's easter threads. I'd really like to discuss this
Stop browsing generals and discuss interesting serious discussions for once
>>61459313
> Wouldn't it just funnel cash from its wealthier states to the shitholes?
That's already happening.
> Also how could a Central European MEP or Commission member hope to have any clue about its fringe members and their problems?
They don't care.
> Wouldn't it just be 4th Reich in effect and neglect the citizens of its smaller states like Baltics?
Kind of. But German citizens are fucked too since our shekels go to thrid-world shitholes like Latvia or Poland.
> How could the government of such a thing be organized so that corporations don't fuck up its legislative process with lobbying (for example no consumer and worker rights representatives were allowed in TTIP negotiations, only lobbyists and corporate affiliates)?
L.O.L. EU legislation is full of lobbyists. Also see second point.
> How would they prevent their fringe members having unprecedented immigration to the centre of the Union?
They want to prevent it?
> How would it organize its taxation so that it isn't designed to rob the wealthier members and redistribute it to the shitholes?
Google "Länderfinanzausgleich", it's basically this concept on state level in Germany.
> What rights would a state have
Don't know, similar to German states, I guess.
> and would the amount of MEPs still be decided by proportional system instead of a fair 2-per state system?
Still proportional.
> How would such a union ensure that no nationality feel left out and marginalized by Brussels' decisionmaking?
Sanction countries that want to leave. :^)
> Would it try to pritect unique cultures of Europe or mold them into one big, nameless and faceless blob like Brazilians or Americans are?
Yes. Cultural conflict potential could be reduced in favor of economic strength.
> How can it ensure the survival of small and unique languages?
L.O.L. no
>What would be the benefots of a federal EU for an ordinary citizen?
The EU-court has pushed strongly for the average citizen's rights as a EU citizen. Free movement, no discrimination, etc
>Wouldn't it just funnel cash from its wealthier states to the shitholes?
This happens. Investing in shitholes give bigger returns than investing in countries with already functional infrastructure, which in turns benefits the richer countries since it increases the productivity of the weaker countries (remember, economics isn't a zero sum game)
>Also how could a Central European MEP or Commission member hope to have any clue about its fringe members and their problems?
Probably not, but every member state gets to put citizens in the EU institution. Don't like how things work? Bitch at that guy because he's clearly not doing a good job.
> How could the government of such a thing be organized so that corporations don't fuck up its legislative process with lobbying (for example no consumer and worker rights representatives were allowed in TTIP negotiations, only lobbyists and corporate affiliates)?
No idea. I guess the workers need to get better organized if this keeps happening? There is a vote for the EU parliament. It had terrible turnover last time because people didn't care.
> How would they prevent their fringe members having unprecedented immigration to the centre of the Union?
There's a clause that lets you send back other EU country citizens if they can't secure themselves financially and just try to mooch up your social security. Admittedly it might not be working properly and could need some tuning up.
>How would it organize its taxation so that it isn't designed to rob the wealthier members and redistribute it to the shitholes?
Taxation is outside EU competence. Don't like taxes in your country? Bitch at your own politicians.
>>61459538
Fug. Sp Federal EU would literally be 4th Reich? EU politicians use the kind of rhetpric that they want to take into account all members' wishes and hopes and concerns but you made it seem like that is not the case. Thanks for replying
>>61459821
It wouldn't be a "Fourth Reich", people should stop using that term. It's more like another Soviet Union.
>>61459791
>Probably not, but every member state gets to put citizens in the EU institution. Don't like how things work? Bitch at that guy because he's clearly not doing a good job.
Yes, but getting hold of our Commissar Katainen is not the same thing as an American contacting his senator. Commissars are appointed by parliaments and seem to not be held responsible to the people who voted those in who appointed the Commissar. Commission is also very opaque and doesn't really actively inform about its ongoing negotiations and possible effects, positive and negative, to the citizens
>>61459791
>The EU-court has pushed strongly for the average citizen's rights as a EU citizen. Free movement, no discrimination, etc
Why would we need to federalize for those things to still stay protected? EU also tramples on "negative freedoms" pretty often under the pretense of security.
>>61459791
>Taxation is outside EU competence. Don't like taxes in your country? Bitch at your own politicians.
But in Federal EU we would be under EU taxation and bitching at our politicians would be useless since Finland holds very little political clout and influence in EU. Also under a federal system our politiciabs' hands would be tied and their limits strictly set by Brussels.
>>61460017
>Commissars are appointed by parliaments and seem to not be held responsible to the people who voted those in who appointed the Commissar.
Then start holding the parliament responsible? They are basically getting away with murder and by going "muh EU, muh opaque organization". Never trust a politician to not shift the blame when put under criticism.
>Commission is also very opaque and doesn't really actively inform about its ongoing negotiations and possible effects, positive and negative, to the citizens
http://ec.europa.eu/index_en.htm
I dunno, I think their webpage is pretty nice. Could always be improved I guess.
>>61460149
How can I hold my representatives responsible for appointing Katainen after he's in Commission? Finnish government to my knowledge can't present s vote of no confidence in order to get the Commissar out of there.
>>61460115
Oh, we're talking hypothetical? In that case I don't know because that's pure speculation. I guess you can look at USA for a federal example?
>>61460050
I misunderstood the question. I thought he asked about EU today. Anyway, my personal opinion is that the EU court goes further to protect to protect citizen rights than the national courts do.
>>61460243
Well one example of them not knowing what the fuck they're doing is proposed EU-wide complete gunban. It would make a lot of Finns criminals for having a hunting hobby.
>>61460243
Yes, the tread was about a federal EU in the future. My main points were mostly about feeling of marginalization and political cynicism in smaller member states if it would happen and I suspect those are reasons bwhind many EU-critical movements, the feeling of being led and not having a say in things. (See Finland's 13 MEPs vs. Germany's 86)
>>61460209
Technically speaking they just nominated him. The actual appointment is on EU parliament level. It's also the EU parliament that can have a vote of no confidence.
As for holding your own politicians responsible, you need to point out that you've been displeased with whom they've been nominating and then not vote at them.
You also have a vote in the EU parliament.
>>61460403
Yes I do have a vote in EU parliament but see >>61460333. 13 MEPs voted in by Finns (who might disagree with me and actually like Katainen et al.) versus Germany's 96 MEPs is hardly fair. How can 13 MEPs have influence enough in order to get a destructive Commissar out?
>>61460333
That actually gives Finland a pretty good influence considering that's 6 million inhabitants is getting 13 MEPs compared to Germany's 80 million getting 86.
>>61460443
If the commissar is genuinely destructive, wouldn't others also be interested in getting him out?
>>61460487
But why isn't it a x-number of candidates per member nation? That would be fair and people would feel involved. Estonians get 6, how can they ever feel being involved in decision making if they don't get to have any say even if the proportional influence number is high? People always look at absolute numbers, not propotions.
>>61460505
What if Germans actually like Katainen? I suspect an average German would have any knowledge about Katainen's actions except for the things Commission puts out for positive press.
>>61460540
How is it fair that 6 million voters gets as much political sway as 80 million voters?
I mean, imagine if every region in Finland had the exact same amount of representatives. Imagine Åland getting as many MPs as Helsinki.
>>61459313
>Would it try to pritect unique cultures of Europe or mold them into one big, nameless and faceless blob like Brazilians or Americans are?
Protecting your culture is all up to you.
If you can't do shit then you are shit
>>61460586
Well, Katainen's job isn't to be Finland's buttboy. His job is that of an EU commissioner.
>>61460624
Because treating the small nations as essentially playthings for the more populous creates the feeling of marginalization and political cynicism. Has there ever been a situation a Finnish MEP for example has successfully carried out a political action that for example blocked a harmful proposal with the 13 other Finnish MEPs? I know of many German examples so it would seem smaller countries are essentially supoorting votes for the big boys.
>>61460642
I was speaking of Katainen's actions as our prime minister, yet knowing all the things he did he still got to be a Commissar.
>>61459879
>It's more like another Soviet Union.
Not even close.
I was alive wile the USSR was still here.
This is nothing like it believe me.
>>61460642
I am also wondering why Commission isn't an electable insitution. It would give the institution democratic legitimacy. Now it feels and seems to be unelectable and that commission circumvents the democratic process
>>61460636
All culture changes over time and many of its components change.None of our cultures today are what they were 1000 years ago.
There are parts of our culture that i would gladly change and there are parts that i would love to keep.
Parts like our songs and folktales,some of our old traditions like Baba Marta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_Y7abspLSA
I would gladly remove chalga and other subcultures.
>>61460811
Well, it technically is since the EU parliament appoints them. The problem is that the EU parliament elections had abysmal. turnover. Is it okay to call the EU non-democratic when nobody is voting anyway? It's like they want a bunch of faceless bureaucrats in charge.
>>61460720
Yeah well, it was us who nominated him for appointment.
>>61460700
Well, that's democracy. If anything, the minorities are unproportionally influential in the EU and it's the big countries like Germany that should be pissed.
>>61459313
>How can it ensure the survival of small and unique languages?
all the Euro languages killed were before the union and by nation implementing a policy to explicitly do it.
>>61460980
No, it was the government who nominated him him, not I.
>>61460779
Yeah cos you're collecting all the monies your fucking scrub
tell me about your homo roads again
you western fags benefit from this the most
you have an army of cheap slaves producing shit for you to buy at a low price in exchange of building roads and making sure the shitholes will never ever develop an economy not dependant on you
>>61461044
You had a vote. Well, unless you are underage anyway. In that case, my condolences.
>>61461085
You get literally billions of our tax money yet you somehow still think that we are benefitting from all of this. Nice mental gymnastics m8
>>61461085
>you have an army of cheap slaves producing shit for you to buy at a low price
You mean the chinese?
>>61461114
hes a fucking gypsie so.... surprise there.
>>61461114
Well we are. Cheap productions means cheap ipads and our relative consumption power increases.
>>61461089
But wouldn't you think it would be begter from a democratic perspective to gave the commissar of the country be the one who received most votes in Parliamentary elections like in Finland? That would give people the fewling that they truly are looking out for their country's interests instead of being appointed by good-brother networks
>>61461156
Central Europe also exports a lot of goods here and uses those same roads and borderless travel to profit even more.It is usually n33ts scared for their welfare paychecks who don't see this as a good thing.
EU truck simulator anyone?
>>61461151
your mother is, die in cancer underaged fag
>>61461243
Your mother gave a birth to one.
>>61461156
Why has our PPP decreased then if EU benefits our PPP and exports so much :D
>>61460968
Yes of course cultures change and develop but I'd rather see a diverse Europe, not a rootless and cultureless mass with a few cool ancient buildings here and there. Refugee relocation is actually the best way to achieve this upheaval of European cultures.
>>61461302
It is always easier to blame the EU i understand.
I am yet to see someone that is in a EU member state blame their own government or their own people for their failings.
I mean you are the perfect people!You are incapable of any wrong doing and if it wasn't for the EU you would be ruling the world right now!
Great way of thinking there.
>>61461379
>I mean you are the perfect people!You are incapable of any wrong doing and if it wasn't for the EU you would be ruling the world right now!
Never said or implied this. Cool strawman :D Finns have always been the ragdolls of Europe.
And what do you suggest the government do? Remove a directive that hurts from our law book? That shit nets us a million euro fine faster than a gypsy drives to Finland from Bulgaria.
>>61461379
Nigga the problem with EU is exactly that we fucking CANT you stupid piece of shit.
>>61461379
You do realize that national governments are subjects to EU? They are third-rate political actors and not nearly important or powerful enough to actually ease a national economic crisis.
>>61461498
>Finns have always been the ragdolls of Europe
Riiiight...and we are the meat shield that has to share a boarder with freaking Turkey so cry me a river.
>Remove a directive that hurts from our law book?
Ask yourself how did that directive get in your law book in the first place.
>And what do you suggest the government do?
I am not familiar with the political life in Finland but you are the people who voted your government in am i right?So how about you look at your fellow Fins the same way that Brits are looking at their fellow countrymen.
>>61461644
Badly implemented or unimplemented directives nets the country a fine. EU court found that members who don't adopt directives properly can be held responsible for damages to parties who have been adversely affected so yeah, it's EU coercion that puts directives in our law book.
And you fucking cunt dare to suggest that Finland is not a ragdoll? What is Swedish colonialism? What is Tzarist imperial period? What is WW2?
>>61461644
>this nigga is worried about turkey
how delusional can you be?
>but you are the people who voted your government in
I was a fucking 10 year old or something when that happened. And our people got fooled.
No way this EU is the one people voted for.
People here were way less informed back in the day and got fooled.
>>61461644
>but you are the people who voted your government in am i right?
Yes, you are correct. But what does it matter? Finland can't block legislation coming from the EU except in the case of recommendations. Everything else is legally binding and leads to punishment if ignored or blocked. So in fact if a regulation or directive fucks us up, EU says too bad.
>>61461739
>And you fucking cunt dare to suggest that Finland is not a ragdoll? What is Swedish colonialism? What is Tzarist imperial period? What is WW2?
>trying to get in a butthurt contests about who had it worst throughout history... with Bulgaria.BULGARIA!
Don't even try it.Seriously just stop.Google up history of Bulgaria.
>it's EU coercion that puts directives in our law book
You understand that you joined the EU voluntarily,right? You were not in a war on anything.So i am going to ask you again ''how did that directive get in your law book in the first place''.
The EU didn't force anyone in.You were not held at gunpoint.
>>61461879
WE MADE A FUCKING MISTAKE MAN ALLRIGHT?
Finland has been held at gunpoint since it's existance. Just a pro tip.
>>61461879
>So i am going to ask you again ''how did that directive get in your law book in the first place''.
You don't know the legislative process of the EU? Why are you shilling for EU if you don't have even the basic knowledge of how regulation, directive or decision are put into effect and what the punishments of not complying are? And no, no one forced Finland to join and at the time it seemed necessary to get out of 90's depression. However, having had to pay for Southern Europe's financial fuck ups, infra in the East and the xbox hyeg salaries of EU official I have begun to wonder if it is worth it.
>>61461981
>Why are you shilling for EU if you don't have even the basic knowledge of how regulation
Cos hes getting roads and shit, paid by us.
In the mean time, all finland is doing is spending and contributing.
>>61461947
>Finland has been held at gunpoint since it's existance. Just a pro tip.
So pretty much the same as Bulgaria minus turks killing and raping us for 500 years.
>WE MADE A FUCKING MISTAKE MAN ALLRIGHT?
People make mistakes and it is important to admit it.
>>61462040
Much roads me happy!OUGA BOUGA!
>all finland is doing is spending and contributing.
http://europa.eu/workingforyou/en/
And this is not counting investments from EU firms and money that are coming from free trade and open border policies.Stop being delusional.You are getting more from the EU since you have a working economy and can export shit while we are forces into taking imported goods.
>>61462172
>since you have a working economy
Proof you don't have any clue what the fuck you are talking about. Salaries have stagnated, minimal GDP growth, incredible youth unemployment, detoriating exports sector, agriculture and raw materials almost completely gone.
>>61461981
everyone can voice their opinions in the EU and cause trouble, sabotage legislation to be processed
you just have a sweden tier government who say yes to everything, with that attitude id be an afgan poster praising merkel from my finnish sponsored wifi and tent
>>61462172
Again with this EU site shit... Read the finlands page man.
EU-funded projects in Finland
The money paid into the EU budget by Finland helps fund programmes and projects in all EU countries - like building roads, subsidising researchers and protecting the environment.
Find out more about how Finland benefits from EU funding.
WE DONT NEED ANY OF THIS SHIT WE ALREADY HAVE IT ALL
bunch of horseshit since EU isn't doing shit here.
The unemployement has only risen since we joined ffs.
You dont need to be a fucking rocket scientist here to see we are getting the short end of this fucking deal.
>>61462172
>Blazing a trail into the world of work for young Europeans
And everyone in the pic is a fucking CHINK or rapefugee. NOICE M8
I'm off, fuck the EU
>>61462352
>The unemployement has only risen since we joined ffs
I know.Capitalism is bad.If only we could force all those companies that prefer cheap labor to stop relocating their factories to China.
>WE DONT NEED ANY OF THIS SHIT WE ALREADY HAVE IT ALL
Than i suggest that you leave and become a Russian puppet state since obviously can't see the non-financial benefits from being in the EU.You are obviously smarter and better than everyone else and will be able to do it on your own.Why band together with other countries.Just leave.
FIXIT WHEN?
Look, together Western nations are stronger, you will not deny this, it's clear as day, it's why people jack it to Kalmar union and shit.
Eastern shiholes like bulgaria are a good place for the union to get growth from in a rapidly growing world.
Right now we aren't much, but in 100 years we're going to be worth every euro. Just do the math on the growth eastern europe has. And, no, you would not be growing close to that if you just kept the money for your self.
Eastern Europe is in EU to ensure the relevance and power of the union. We're dirty stupid peasants, but you're helping us grow beyond that.
It's all about power, and because the union is democratic we as it's people will find a way to turn this power to our benefit. Through better work conditions, better food standards and higher minimum wages(one day),
>>61462447
I love it how you grab onto thexweaker shit rather than addressing the points constructively and with well researched information.
>finnish neets raging about EU while never working a day in their life
pottery
>>61462289
You do realize that EU effectively punishes well-performing countries if they fail to adopt a legislation but ignores it if it's an Eastern European country? There have been cases where Finland was slapped with a fine by the EU but an Eastern European country was not for the same offence. Do you see how that feeds into the cyxle of cynicism and Euroskepticism when the same rules don't apply to everyone while those who get punished also have to pay for development of those who clearly don't give a fuck?
I'd really like to EU be a functioning and beneficial organisation for Finland but its supposed benefits like common currency and free movement ended up fucking us. Euro with Eurocrisis and Schengen with criminals coming here for a holiday.
>>61462626
I am actually at work right now but on lunch break.
>>61462526
Question: how does an Eastern shithole like Bulgaria absorbing manufacturing jobs benefit a Finn who just lost his manufacturing job because the company relocated due to common market area?
>HURR BUT WE ARE STRONGER HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE!!!!!
I'm not sure I have my mind completely made up about the EU or a federation so please don't bully me but I'll answer some questions anyway.
>>61459313
>Wouldn't it just funnel cash from its wealthier states to the shitholes?
It's a worthy investment and these smaller, shitter countries with weak voting blocks (like mine) also at greater risk of losing a great deal of their sovereignty so it's not like this is a one-way street. Their investment gives them a great deal of control.
>no consumer and worker rights representatives were allowed in TTIP negotiations, only lobbyists and corporate affiliates
afaik these are the terms the Americans suggested for the beginning of the negotiations. The EU has years to renegotiate the terms. Even the best European nations are dwarfed by the wealth and influence of the US and no EU leaves all of us very vulnerable to getting cucked by the US (and China, and Russia).
I don't know about the rest of thing the things you said, just adding to conversation. The EU needs to be reformed a great deal for some of the reasons you mentioned before I would support federalization but the Brexit could possibly be just the kick in the balls the EU needed to address these problems.
>>61462739
pekka assembles a phone for 10euros
boris does it for 1
therefore the price of the phone is lower, and pekka can buy it from his neetbux, while boris is happy he doesnt starve
>>61462739
Go and blame your rich fins for wanting to be more rich.
>>61462838
To be frank my main gripe with EU is that it either unintentionally or out of stupidity obfuscates many matters. Commission has been caught many times pants down using lobbying money to fly in private jets and having parties but because EU does not have an independent watch dog these matters often go unnoticed. The media very rarely even reports on the activities of EU officials unless it's a scandal like Brexit.
I'd also want to see Parliament be the main actor and not the commission or have commission made up of the people who received the most votes in their respective countries. Same should apply to the President of EU.
I'd also like to see a flat amount of MEPs per nation for fairness' sake. It'd also remove many of the cynicism and apoliticism revolving around the EU. It will never get passed because it would remove the unilateral power of the big boys.
>>61462630
legislation fines are like any other court case, you can win or lose, EU is sueing everyone without discrimination
its particulary interesting how the EU is not remotely interested in thoroughly investigating how the money is spent, because its not spent on development, it ends up in the pockets of individuals close to the government
>>61462944
>therefore the price of the phone is lower, and pekka can buy it from his neetbux
You forget that rising unemployment stifles wage growth, GDP growth, innovation, increases taxes (but ultimately leads to dismantling of the welfare system) and reduces the growth prospects of national comöanies because they can't conduct business with now-relocated Phone Ltd.
So no, Igor in Bulgaria making phones while 10% of Finns sit on neetbux doesn't help Finns. Unemployment cash sometimes doesn't even fulfill the cost of living. Many families with children have to resort to charity foodlines already.
>>61463111
As i said before go and talk to your rich fins who don't want to pay your high salaries.
Stop blaming other countries when it is your own elite that is fucking you over.
Go and ask them why aren't they making more factories in Finland.
>>61463272
>Stop blaming other countries when it is your own elite that is fucking you over.
No, I am blaming EU for the common market area has exacerbated the problem of job loss to overseas. It's not Igor's fault. It's the fault of EU because EU doesn't give a shit what happens to Pekka in Finland after he is fired and his quality of life plummets because his company relocated to Igor's backyard. But because Finland is a net contributor, no one cares.
>>61463359
This is just epic.No matter what are not willing to admit that it is your fellow fins that are fucking you over.
>EU BAD!It literally forced them to relocate.They had no hand in it.
>fins care about one another
>if they had the choice they would keep their business in Finland
>but the big bad EU made it possible for them to make more money
>so they chose money over their fellow Fins
>>61463359
the other option is not being part of the common market, which is probably worse
>>61463494
I am saying EU made it easier. You also forget that many goods from Finland have to be transported by sea which isn't as cost effective or fast as driving or using Centrla European railways. So Pekka gets fucked because his job is gone because owners made the logical choice to relocate and no one cares.
What's funny is that when one factory relocates to a low cost EFTA country, it affects all those who do business with them. Logistics companies lose cargo and have to restructure. Formerly booming towns have to end their service industry because factory feeding them closed down.
You may not see it as bad because hurrdurr rich Finns but everything is relative. Even if EU means cheaper import goods, how does it exactly benefit the now unemployed Pekka? Your retarded "LOL MAN JUST COMPLAIN TO THE RICH FINNS" isn't an argument either. Please stop trolling.
>>61463525
I guess, yes, but EU certainly has not helped the common blue collar worker in Finland. Finland lives off of exports but exports are down leading to lesser economic growth. EU has not helped with that but instead only worsened it. For example, EU gave a directive to Baltic Sea members to switch to diesel powered ships which caused exporting costs from Finland to rise as much as 30% due to diesel being more expensive than the fuel they used before.
bump for intredasting discussions
