Nationalism is an outdated concept. The state, any social hierarchy, is fundamentally created as a union among a group of people in order to better advance the interests of all involve -i.e. for protection, a stable food supply, organized habitation, culture, etc. Culture is a product of the state -the state is not a product of culture. Modern nationalism does not realize this.
The first states may have had as few as a hundred or so peoples -as a state naturally evolves, the definition of its citizenry becomes more and more diffused. We can say that the first state is essentially the family. The family then evolved into the clan, the clan into the tribal state, the tribal state into the chiefdom state, the chiefdom state into the monarchial one. The next great step after the monarchial step was the national state.
We are now approaching a new level of statehood -the transcontinental state. Nationalism is now outdated, and impedes the arrival of this new evolution of statehood. Nationalism believes that only people of the same ethnicity, language, or culture can live in the state. It is naturally divisive, as it prevents any expansion, and thus impedes the interest of the state. Complete nationalism is a society of perpetual war, as nationalism inspires love for one's own state and hatred towards others, as overt or cover this hatred may be.
Prove me wrong.
The nation is a metaphysical medium you need in order to connect on that level.
Language for example is a national aspect.
>>60198086
That's why this:
>Nationalism is an outdated concept.
is wrong.
The national state might experience changes, and some national states might experience those severely. But it's based upon us how we will define the future.
>>60198086
Language is becoming less of a barrier than it was many years ago, and as education improves, that barrier diminishes. How long do you think it would take before languages slowly start to die out? Eventually we'll reach a point where 1 or 2 languages are spoken throughout almost the entire world. The only thing slowing it down is the state itself and its laws that impede progress.
>>60198416
Languages won't become obsolete any time soon.
That's your error.
Same goes for nationhood.
If anything nations might merge to form new ones.
>>60198416
Yeah. It's a shame American is dying out in favour of Spanish.
I agree
>>60198416
>1 languages replacing the rest
Even in that case various slangs would emerge.
>>60198657
The dominant language can change quite rapidly.
>>60198789
In the Netherlands Latin, German, French, Spanish and English have all been the second language of the elite. Dutch is still around.
>>60198535
Well yes, but that doesn't mean nationalism is really still necessary.
What good is nationalism in a global society like today? Nothing. We all share resources and global trade is at an all time high never before seen in human history. Why should people still have this idea of nationalism if it serves no purpose and only harms individuals.
I'm actually going to copy-paste a quote by a guy called Carl Sagon.
"Much of human history can, I think, be described as a gradual and sometimes painful liberation from provincialism, the emerging awareness that there is more to the world than was generally believes by our ancestors. With awesome ethnocentrism, tribes all over the Earth called themselves “the people” or “all men,” relegating other groups of humans with comparable accomplishments to subhuman status.
Such views or their equivalent are only slowly changing, and it is possible to see some of the roots of racism and nationalism in their pervasive early acceptance by virtually all human communities. But we live in an extraordinary time, when technological advances and cultural relativism have made such ethnocentrism much more difficult to sustain.
The view is emerging that we all share a common life raft in a cosmic ocean, that the Earth is, after all, a small place with limited resources, that our technology has now attained such powers that we are able to affect profoundly the environment of our tiny planet."
With that in mind, is intense love and pride for your country really necessary in a society, and is it harmful?
>>60198005
Please nuke again, Our fucking idiot government attempt to go back WW2 militarism.
>>60198535
>Nationalism wont magically become obsolete soon
>therefore you are wrong
really? I'm guessing you have no good arguments...
>>60199047
>that doesn't mean nationalism is really still necessary
You mean justifying your nation infront other entities (isn't necessary)?
Even if you had single global nation, then you'd still have a nation.
>>60199256
What?
>>60199047
The only reason "nationalism" still floats is because the elite doesn't want to lose their power. Although, the UN is trying to make a solution to that by putting everyone under the same chains.
>>60199332
The reason nationalism still exists is because foreigners attack our way of life. From Africa, from the middle east, from Brussels, from Washington, from Moscow and so on.
>>60199410
That too. It's a natural reaction. But you could argue that the issue on a whole is a product of nationalism.
>>60199120
Askeru China-kun
All the people, united under the tyranny of capitalism.
>>60199332
>The only reason "nationalism" still floats is because...
We already have sorted out that the nation won't become obsolete,
subsequently nationalism will still remain.
Even if there was just a single nation in the whole world.
>The only reason...
>the elite doesn't want to lose their power.
It's everyone elses fault.
>>60199460
>you could argue that
Even a single global nation would still be a nation and people could still be nationalistic as in arguing against other (for example prior) nations (or possible new ones).
>>60199460
It's not. When you separate people across the planet it's only natural they get regional differences and regional political preferences. So it's logical they want their own sovereignty.
And people group up into a nation to make it happen.
>>60198005
Relating to nationalism, aside form racism, Religion as belief is also outdated as fuck. It only makes wars and unscientific degenerations.
Ethnocentrism/any ethno-ism/ideology in modern society are also for corrupt cunts. Only stupid faggots parasitize it.
What it comes down to is the consciousness of "history" is a pure disease for human beings. The best solution to it is unironically erasing the entire memory of man.
>>60199540
The Dutch political system was designed not to have political parties. But the Christians eventually formed a voting block, forcing other parties to form voting blocks as well.
The same happens on a national level. Before the Netherlands existed we had lots of small states. But to keep the Spanish at bay we all grouped up into the Netherlands.
>>60199590
You're just incapable of putting the world into an order (world history included).
>>60199650
That's also how the Frankish empire started. The relations with the Romans went sour so the frankish tribes banded togheter.
>>60199518
The idea of a nation won't become obsolete because people desire it and identify with their nation, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to abolish. It's divisive by nature and will inevitably create conflict in the future.
It's not everyone elses fault, but it's a well known fact that power corrupts and we have been subject to the cycle of entropy and order since the dawn of human civilization. It's only natural that the people on top want to keep their status, I would probably too.
If everyone on the globe was "nationalistic" towards the same idea then how would that be a problem? Of course, we don't have any way of knowing if that's possible to achieve yet..
>>60199540
Not really. You don't see this happening in every country so why would this apply to a country that covered the entire earth? The biggest reason people usually want to break off from a country and form independence is usually economic ones(take USA for example) and cultural oppression.
>>60199840
>will inevitably create conflict
So will your computer. You still buy it.
I don't think you know what the term nation really means.
Nation (from Latin: natio, "people, tribe, kin, genus, class, flock") is a social concept with no uncontroversial definition,[1] but that is most commonly used to designate larger groups or collectives of people with common characteristics attributed to them—including language, traditions, customs (mores), habits (habitus), and ethnicity. A nation, by comparison, is more impersonal, abstract, and overtly political than an ethnic group. It is a cultural-political community that has become conscious of its autonomy, unity, and particular interests.[2]
The national state is not the nation.
Nations aren't dependant on protocols or borders.
>>60198005
Cлaвa Poccии! Гepoям Cлaвa! Пиндocы cocyт
>>60199942
Cultural regions dont all have to be the same size.
>>60199967
That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to prevent it.
>I don't think you know what the term nation really means.
Did you actually read that yourself? "is a social concept with no uncontroversial definition,[1] but that is most commonly used to designate larger groups or collectives of people with common characteristics attributed to them".
I understand this and that's what I meant. I wrote "nationalism" like this because I know it's not really the right word for it.
Heres my two cents (Implying American descent). Nationalism stemmed from a human need to categorize and distinguish things, including ourselves. It was in a sense a process of self recognition and distinguishment, which is, admittedly, a divisive process. but MODERN nationalism has taken on a violent and competitive nature. I am all for people taking pride in their roots, and knowing where they came from (whether that be a good or bad lineage) but the second that form of nationalism takes on a competitive and even violent nature, is when the true divisive qualities are brought forth. People can acknowledge their backgrounds and cultural roots without it categorizing others as subhuman. I think nationalism is, as a concept, healthy and natural, but MODERN nationalism has become less of a method through which we self identify, and more of a self perceived pyramid scheme, and that is truly saddening. And as an end note, fuck inflammatory rhetoric imposed by governments to deepen and radicalize dichotomies. That shit doesn't help.
(written while on a substance that ravages third world countries. My life and opinions are luxuries of my environment. Please tear me apart, I want to LEARN.)
>>60200918
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
The question is if its really necessary to distinguish ourselves into small nations? I think it's possible to have a nation for all human beings by all human beings.
>>60200918
>written while on a substance that ravages third world countries
Do elaborate
>>60201231
He's high on oil.
>>60199332
Or maybe its because we don't want more Muslim nationalism.
>>60198005
Hello mr shill
You should try here
>>>/pol/
>>60198005
>Culture is a product of the state -the state is not a product of culture. Modern nationalism does not realize this.
Explain language then, you retarded fuckwit.
>>60199047
>We all share resources
Oh, is that why nationstates nationalize oilproduction for the benefit of the citizens?
>>60198005
This is just silly. I don't actually disagree on a fundamental level, however this is all so naive it hurts.
The thing is that this ideology has been in charge of the West for several decades now.
And it does NOT work. Failure after failure.
All those nationalisms still exist, and people are in fact all far more nationalist than 30 years ago !
Nobody is living in peace, religious tensions are still extremely strong, and only getting stronger.
Language barriers haven't fallen one bit. Neither have racial ones.
It's time for the West to realize globalization was a failed experiment.
It brought absolutely nothing, and just wasted our time.
Maybe we can try again in 100 years when we have an actual hegemony.
>>60200279
>It is a cultural-political community that has become conscious of its autonomy, unity, and particular interests.
>THE NATION IS OBSOLEEEEETE.
Nationalism is necessary in the same way gargabemen are necessary. I'm not going to limit my perspectives by attaching myself to my tribe, I'll leave that to the dumb cunts.
>>60203775
It's so much easier to say this when your tribe is shit. Attaching myself to my tribe actually would give me great perspectives anon.
I understand the issue for you here however that's no excuse to just deny the existence and importance of tribalism entirely.
I will also say, it is a good thing that people like you get to have a chance for themselves individually.
Bur this individualism stems from the West. Destruction of tribalism in the West leaves it weak and under attack.
As a result the West won't be able to offer such opportunities anymore. And you will be stuck with your tribe for good.
>>60203775
Some limitations set by the environmental condittions exist. How inclusive you want to understand your nation you belong to inside such is up to you, but you'll have a hard time escaping the definition that you are part of some kind of nation(s) alltogether. Even if that might end in you belonging to a nation of the whole human race (you can also include the animals and more but the definition of what a nation is might become less practical and quite shapeless).
Also these people will most probably speak some kind of language(s).
Advocating to rather belong to such an inclusive nation, or identifying with such a nation rather than to another one, even implies some kind of superiority of the prefered nation.
Anti nationalists are just sneakier nationalists., unkowingly most probably, which is quite dangerous because of the complete lack of self determination.
>>60204344
you're probably right. If I was French, I'd probably be more nationalistic because I'm such a francophile. But I'm not.
>>60204559
very hard for me to understand you, but if I read your post correctly:
I know I am part of a nation, and I know that I benefit from the existence of the nation, no matter how shit it may be. I want what's best for the people of this country, but no more or no less than I want what's best for the people of every other country.
Fuck off commie fuck
>>60205324
Both terms are poorly understood in that picture.
>>60205324
WEW
>>60198005
Natinalism is in the nature of uman being. We, as social people, and as the rest of social animals, have herds. Our nations are our own "herds" definded by our culture and our race. This is why multiculturalism and project like the "US of Europe" are failing, this is against our nature. Even less you can make the same economical and social policies for those countries. (Even more, democracy is unable in some countries as we can see afer the "muslism springs").
Deny nationalism and cultural and racial differences are one of the big amount of retarded ideas that characterized posmodern ideology.
