What went wrong?
Letting Sicily exist.
>>58330573
Getting rid of Mussolini.
italians
France
>>58331226
Quite true. It can be argued that it was the french invasion and the subsequent wars in the XV-XVI centuries that triggered the cascade of events that led us where we are.
>>58331226
What do you mean by this
>>58335326
He's tuggin yer oyster, friendo
>>58335326
fucking italian wars mangiarane
>>58330573
Too many Italians.
>>58335208
It wasnt french and spanish faul,bro.Plz dont blame us on this
>>58330573
Stop bullying
Not being far enough from Africa and the Midlle east.
>>58330573
what is exactly wrong, though?
>>58336711
Not having frequent mass shootings,not having a nigger president, having a low obesity rate, having public health care, not being cucked, etc.
All of this triggers the Americans
>>58336711
>>58336854
>moroccans
>chineese
>senegalese
>gambians
>crumbling infrastructure
>smartest students move out of the country
>top entrepreneurs in the country: Hu, Chen, Singh
>third largest eurozone economy (that's good) yet no balls to assert itself within the eu
>migration
>>58337033
About 3% of the people living in Italy are not European (most of the immigrants are actually Eastern European), while only 70% of America is """"white"""" (where "white" includes non-Europeans people like Hispanics who consider themselves white and other Caucasian people)
>>58337292
Yes, notice that I didn't mention the romanians or albanians.
>while only 70% of America is """"white"""
Take it from me. Stop it. Stop it now.
Literally nothing, if you separated North and South Italy the North would be wealthy similar to Switzerland, Austria, or Bavaria. It's like comparing Mississippi to New Hampshire.
>>58337033
>moroccans
0.74% of the population
>chineese
0.44%
>senegalese
0.15%
>gambians
0.00551%
Also funny from a 63% white country
>crumbling infrastructure
Yeah and yours is pristine
>smartest students move out of the country
True, we have a brain drain
>top entrepreneurs in the country: Hu, Chen, Singh
Chinese bought a lot of stuff from all over the world, it's not exclusively our problem and they definitely don't create new ones
>third largest eurozone economy (that's good) yet no balls to assert itself within the eu
Renzi is a cuck but that could be fixed
>>58330573
Nothing. Italy is the best country in europe. It has a great and diverse landscape, nice people, a fuckload of culture and history, a goat cuisine, a good sounding language and a sane idea of how life is supposed to be lived.
>>58337425
And the South would be like Southern Spain with half of the unemployment... not good but not even that bad
>>58337033
Italy has less immigrants than the other top dogs in europe, so it's not like it's any different from the other states. At least we are better at integrating them, be it because we pride ourselves in our culture or whatever.
Our industries is corrupt and outdated, that is true, of course. I don't know who's at fault though,
I honestly don't understand why we are so eager to follow what Germany does for its own good.
>>58330573
Unitarianism won out against federativism.
>>58337705
>I honestly don't understand why we are so eager to follow what Germany does for its own good.
Incompetent politicians who can't come up with ideas of their own like to steal others', even if they don't fit or are retarded even for the first adopters.
So are there any good alternatives to Renzi?
Are Italians in general hyped for these alternatives or are they currently more in line with him and his party?
>>58338265
We're very divided as always and the choices are a cuck, a clown, a moron and berlusconi
>>58337592
Southern Spain fucking sucks. The average salary is just slightly above the minimum wage and they live from welfare. If southern Italy is half as bad I can understand the northern butthurt
>>58338265
consensus for Renzi has been going down lately.
for the alternatives, not really. The right is a joke and the best candidate (on terms of popularity, not competence) for the left is, in fact, renzi.
>>58338476
the South is pretty bad, albeit not as bad as the data usually report, since 3/4 of them are tax evaders.
>>58338536
un peccato. davvero un pecccato.
It really sucks when all the possible candidates are literally morons.
> the right is a joke, and the best candidate on the left is a cuck.
Americans also know this feel.
>>58338476
>lying in the internet
>>58338602
Same in the south. They pay no taxes,work breaking the law and live on welfare. Unemployment would be around 13% without them
>>58338602
>since 3/4 of them are tax evaders
Source?
>>58338710
The medium salary in the southern provinces is pretty damn low. The welfare per inhabitant is only surprised by the meme cities of melilla and Ceuta and the provinces full of old people. Without all the money that the goverment pulls into them they would be fucked beyond belief
>>58338536
>the right is a joke
Kys.
>>58338896
>Salvini
>Meloni
>Alfano
>>58338873
>the provinces full of old people
>>58338873
>muh Andalucia drains the rest of Spain
>>58338265
>So are there any good alternatives to Renzi?
No. There are a couple of sane indivuals (more or less) in the right, but they have nowhere near enough support to take down Renzi, and their administrative competence is doubtful.
The left is just an absolute shitshow.
>>58338536
>on terms of popularity, not competence
Are you implying that there are more competent individual than Renzi in the left? Like who?
>>58338994
>>58338873
pretended to post this one
>>58338994
Yes. Asturias and Galicia are full of old people and that is why they recieve more money per capita. Can you even read? Andalucia has young people,and even then it leeches a lot
>>58330573
last good fight italians did was when they were waring sandals
>>58330573
North should be its own country
![evasione-3[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/mFt9CAD.jpg "evasione-3[1].jpg")
>>58338806
He exaggerated, but he's not that far off m9.
>>58339159
Imagine how shit you must have been when a single city state managed to wreck your greatest imperial achievement and subdue 3/8 of it for three centuries.
>>58339037
Now put the population stats and the number of pensionists. Then if we adjust it Andalucia is the comunity that leeches the most,as they have a young population and still leach as much as some places full of pensionists,with 1/4 of Spain's population
>>58338728
>Unemployment would be around 13% without them
lowest region is basque country with 12,8%
>>58339309
>>58339387
and yet one of the poorest regions like andalucia gets as many money as one of the richest like basque country >>58339037
plus nobody is denying andalucia being absolute broken
>>58339277
a fifth of the population getting a fifth of the pensions
http://www.clasespasivas.sepg.pap.minhap.gob.es/sitios/clasespasivas/es-ES/EstadisticasInformes/Documents/Importe%20de%20las%20pensiones%20abonadas%20en%20cada%20Provincia%2c%20Comunidad%20Aut%C3%B3noma%20y%20Ciudad%20con%20Estatuto%20de%20Autonom%C3%ADa%20Marzo%202016.pdf
>>58339387
>>58339309
>This triggers the gypsies
>>58339179
That's about the % of taxes evaded, not the evaders. It's very different, tax evasion is not distributed homogeneously and probably mafia activities have a large influence on the share of tax evasion (Cosa Nostra has about 3000 people and 'ndrangheta 5000, while the corresponding regions have 5,000,000 and 3,000,000 people)
>>58339387
Distance from the European economic core -> less money -> worse education
>>58339549
I meant Calabria has 2,000,000 people not 3,000,000
>>58338980
>Alfano
>right
>>58339528
You are not getting my point. Some regions like Castilla y Leon have a surplux of pensionists,because they worked in other places before retairing there,that is why they have so high numbers. If we dont take pensionists into account,Andalucia is the worst leecher region by far with an average unenployment close to 30%
>>58339549
To be honest I'm more concerned with the money than the evaders. The south's budget deficit is covered by the other regions' tax surplus (aka muh money) afterall.
>>58339667
Centre-right
>>58339668
gimme some source on that and please don't be that retarded to start with >muh PER
>>58339549
>Distance from the European economic core -> less money -> worse education
Why doesn't Spain have a relevant Economic core in its country?
>>58339766
On what? Pensionists or unemployment.
>>58339691
Sure, but saying that 3/4 Southerners are tax evaders is false. By the way, for obvious reasons, the absolute money evaded in the North is 2 times bigger than the South, so evasion in the North affects the public balance more than the South
>>58339703
By name sure
>>58339820
pensionists of course
>>58339786
What do you mean? Madrid and Barcelona are amongst the most populated refions in Europe,and Madrid alone has a higher GDP than Greece or Portugal
I wish i was Italian
>>58338980
Salvini is a turd.
Alfano will be lucky to get 1% of votes come election time and he's extremely weak.
Meloni is, well I wanna say nice, but perhaps not retarded is better. Her ideas are suspect, but at least she's not brainwashed into party idiocy like almost everyone else. She's also not gonna manage much more than Alfano unless both Berlusconi and Salvini put their weight behind her. Newsflash: they won't. They can barely stand her becoming mayor of Rome, nevermind anything more than that.
Guys, what do seriously think of M5S?
What about Salvini?
>>58339831
>so evasion in the North affects the public balance more than the South
No because the north, unlike the south, still has a balance surplus in spite of the evasion.
>>58339863
That doesn't change the fact that the other two are shit. Lega Nord is basically right-wing M5S now, and it has abandoned its original purpose, it's a non-party now. Meloni is a bigoted whore
>>58339933
>Guys, what do seriously think of M5S?
Please don't even mention it
>>58339904
>They can barely stand her becoming mayor of Rome, nevermind anything more than that.
I don't think Salvini has a problem with her, they are basically the same thing except Salvini is the fedora version
>>58339952
I meant that, if you consider the money that the State expected to receive, the missing ones are mostly from the North. I'm not saying the North doesn't pay or stuff like that, I'm saying that the evasion should be fixed in the North too.
>>58339933
>Guys, what do seriously think of M5S?
A party of clowns detatched from reality whose only pro is not being shackled to decades old political interests.
>What about Salvini?
A fucking clown with no ideas nor direction beyond spoiting weak ass populist propaganda. There are better leaders than him within his own fucking party.
>>58339933
In the upcoming elections i'm gonna vote LN but then i will have to choose between PD and M5S in the second round... i'm gonna vote for M5S because fuck Renzi but is M5S really any better?
>>58340017
Salvini is ambitious. He wants to be the face of the right, he won't support possible rivals.
In a way, parking her in the Campidoglio is gonna take her out of the run next cycle, that's why he wants her there. Berlusconi is too retarded to even get that anymore.
>>58339933
>Guys, what do seriously think of M5S?
LA CA$TAAAAAA!!!111!!!!
jokes aside, a bunch of clowns following a comedian, they only like to complain without doing anything about it
>>58340148
>He wants to be the face of the right
He could still do that while having her and Berlusconi in the coalition to attract the moderates and the religiousfags but they couldn't even agreen on a single person for the next elections in most cities so they are obviously gonna lose all of them like a bunch of idiots
>>58340106
You have to choose between complete retards and corrupted leftists. I choose the corrupted leftists because at least they know what they're doing, they're not against animal testing for instance
>>58339866
Now look at the population of the CCAA compared to the pensionists. The regions with the most pensionists have obviously a bigger deficit,but that doesnt mean that they have an unproductive economy. Without pensionists Andalucia would be leading the charts.
http://www.seg-social.es/Internet_1/Estadistica/Est/Pensiones_y_pensionistas/Pensiones_contributivas_en_vigor/Por_Comunidades_Aut_nomas_y_provincias/ESTC_005357
>>58340288
Why do North Spain vs South Spain discussions look civilized, serious and memeless, unlike those for Italy?
>>58340272
I really can't do it, i hate Renzi too god damn much, i'd rather kill myself than give him a single vote
>>58340106
>but is M5S really any better?
It's actually clearly worse. They're no less corrupt and thrice as incompetent.
>>58340382
But why? Not everything he has done is bad, at least he tried to change something. The thing I hate the most about him is not what he did, but what he wants to do with that referendum. I hope we'll all vote No
>>58340363
Because to us interregional shitflinging is the second national sport after football, the spaniards prefer apehoop.
>>58340288
>a 18% of the of the population gets a 16% of the pensions with the average pension being around a 10% lower than the average pension in Spain
wow, so leeching
>>58340363
Because Catalonia was not mentioned. Pantumakers go full retard with their imparapla bullshit
who is the least cucked party in italy
>>58340744
All the right wing ones, but they're all shit
>>58340744
One of the 4 or 5 fascist parties probably
>>58340744
M5S
>>58340713
Pensions are not leeching m8. You are not getting my point. Places like Castilla have a negative deficit because of pensions,which are not leeching. If we cut pensions, Castilla or Cantabria will have a surplux with the state.
>>58340863
He said "party", and that's false anyway. The conservative part of Italy has always been the South
>>58340852
>>58340852
ebin :DDD
>>58340744
this >>58340842 and on a certain extent Lega Nord, unfortunately i don't know how much they're down to drop their most identitarian ideas for the sake of a larger electorate.
>>58340861
>tax money per capita in CyL dedicated to pensions 214€
>tax money per capita in Andalucia dedicated to pensions 144€
>money from taxes per capita without pensions
>CyL: 1539-214=1325€
>And: 880-144=736€
???
>>58340980
>The conservative part of Italy has always been the South
Top kek. A certain socially conservative bent doesn't balance out their extreme welfareniggery.
On the other hands you have northern regions like Veneto and Lombardia that could pass for american tier right wing with their economically liberist bent and (at least Veneto) no less socialy conservative social views.
>>58340861
in case you don't see it
average money given per pension * total number of pensions / total population of the region
>>58340404
How so? To actually prefer the PD means to really prefer the same political leadership that has ruined the country since the 80s (acronyms changed, not the substance).
While we can agree on many criticisms of the M5S, they are far better and for sure far less corrupt.
May they be shit as other parties? For sure, but they are not yet.
May they reveal themselves to be shit and corrupted? Sure, but they are not yet.
Secondly, while they have not a clear position, 5 stars are way less pro-Europe and pro-Euro than PD.
Thirdly, they don't uphold unlimited immigration (as they don't have the corruption network to satisfy).
>>58341233
>t. nord di cuck
>>58341266
What are you talking about?
>>58341233
Sure thing Mohammed al-Salame
nothing, life here is good, I wouldn't live anywhere else, I don't get where the Italy is shit meme comes from.
>>58341372
you said that CyL would have a deficit without the pensions, if you subtract pension money from the balance you get that CyL still gets 1325€ per capita
>>58341380
This doesn't even make sense. Why would a sandnigger boast about living in a less accepting region?
>>58341182
The differemce is that 1/2 of the population in Castilla is a pensionist.
>>58341571
I substracted the total money received from the pensions from the total money received from the taxes and it still gives a big number and it is still 2x what andalucia gets with the same operation
>>58341571
so while it is true that CyL gets a lot more money because of pensionists they still get way more money than andalucia without it
>>58341659
That cant be right.
>Average pension in Castilla y leon:876*14=12264 a year
>Pensionist Castilla y Leon:
>400k
400k*12,264=4,905,600,000 euros
>Presupuesto Castilla y Leon:
9.843.699.243 €.
Your data is just fake looking at sheer numbers.
>>58330573
Incompetent and corrupt politicians.
What the remote cause is, I have no idea.
>>58341725
>>58342120
False. Your data was just a meme
>>58342120
taking the data from your own source says that average pension in CyL is 882€ and around 600k pensionists, don't know where you got those numbers from
the same result goes to Andalucia compared to its budget
>>58342120
>>58342371
also while CyL gets more pensions from old people andalucia get more from orphanhood and others
>>58342649
Just got it from the internet. But if there are more pensionists that means that my point was even better.
http://www.hacienda.jcyl.es/web/jcyl/Hacienda/es/Plantilla100Detalle/1246993413454/_/1284522206067/Comunicacion?plantillaObligatoria=PlantillaContenidoNoticiaHome
If you plug in the numbers you will see that pensions makes almost all the budget.
>>58342817
Those are minor really. What is the %of orphanes? Like 1 in 100k people? There is almost a pensionist for each 2 workers
>>58342835
in Andalucia it is also the 54% of the budget
>>58342892
around 1% of the population but 5% of the pensions in Andalucia
I said that it is true that there are more pensionists in CyL but that's not enough to change the balance numbers too much
>>58342346
>What the remote cause is, I have no idea.
There is no real remote cause, it's a swing. We're bound to have periods of low talent and periods of high talent, same as with everything else.
We have a couple of worsening factors like low generational turnout and overly individualistic/familistic mindset, but it's minor.
You can sort of argue that we're unlucky by having our talent swing matched by probably the intellectual nadir of the postwar period, but that's it.
>>58343120
Yes it does. Almost half of the population doesnt work in Castilla. Is not the same in Andalucia.
GDP per Capita Castilla y Leon: 24k €
Gdp per capita Andalucia:18k €
Unenployment Castilla y León:14%
Unemployment Andalucia:34% ( it may be lower now.)
It is impossible to fit your data with this numbers.
>>58343410
you said that the pensions are a 50% of the budget while in andalucia it is a 54% doind the same calculation you did here>>58342120
CyL has way more pensionist because of retired people but a lot less for orphanood, widowhood, inability and the rest
I basically used your data
number of pensionist in andalucia: 1.497.984
average pension in andalucia: 809,79
809,79*14*1.497.984=16.983 million €
total budget of andalucia: 31.285 million €
>>58343410
As a castellanoleonés I have to say that here there are a lot of old people that don't work.
