Is US debt something the world needs to be concerned about?
No. Who's gonna collect on it?
I wouldn't worry about it
>>52513970
No, because of 101 level college finance.
Normalize that graph for inflation please
>>52513970
Not if you have any understanding of international finance.
>>52514039
Elaborate. My background is mathematics so I don't know shit about finance.
>>52513970
Blame republicans.
>>52513996
The jews.
>>52513996
its consumer debt retard. the banks are going to collect it
>>52514229
Except it's not. It's sovereign debt. Consumer debt is tracked separately.
>>52514181
No. I do it for a living and have no desire to spend my holiday discussing it with you. Use google.
>>52513970
They are like Greece 20 years ago. It's a bad news, really, because unlik Greece, nobody is going to back them.
>>52514360
Except no, it's literally the exact opposite of Greece's situation.
No wonder you people are so fucking poor, Yuros you know nothing about money.
>>52514360
Why do you insist on saying things that are objectively false?
Oh I know, it's because you actually have zero knowledge of the subject.
>>52514360
"I have no understanding of basic finance" - You.
>>52514351
If it's Finance 101 then it can be explained simply. No introductory college course requires any extensive knowledge. Google is filled with conflicting shit. Half scream it's the end of the world, the other half say it's nothing. I'm not asking for you to give an extensive explanation, just a brief one.
No, because they are in debt with themselves.
Economics is a confusing subject... Everyone seems to know what they are talking about yet its hard to find definitive answers. I'm sure I'll get some negative replies but if economics were really that simple to understand, far more people would have predicted past economic disasters and they would have been avoided. Not saying you can't make an educated guess, but it seems that frequently, many people, even those who know what they are talking about, are wrong.
>>52514468
The vast majority of the debt is owed to ourselves.
The rest is owed to allies and countries like China who wouldn't dare call it in.
The US is also considered the bedrock of financial market stability so other nations keep buying our bonds no matter what.
>>52514468
National debt doesn't matter as long as it is serviced. Most US national debt is internally held. Most foreign debt the US has is in the form of treasuries which have det maturation periods and cannot be called in at will.
>>52514585
They can't call it in. That's what people don't fucking understand. That's not how it fucking works. They did not loan us money. This isn't like having a mortgage.
>>52514529
I agree. I'm a top of my class econ student at a decent uni and i struggle to come up with any kind of definitive answer some of the time
>>52514529
Economics are fairly easy to understand. The problem is that there are millions of factors that you can't predict, which makes that career one of the most useless that exists.
>>52514585
>>52514590
Do you guys have any videos or articles you'd recommend to learn more?
As I said there's so much conflicting stuff. It's hard to determine what's accurate and what's bullshit without a background in the area.
>>52514681
Any reputable publication is fine. Just don't get shit from blogs and op-eds.
>>52514590
>National debt doesn't matter as long as it is serviced.
So the massive opportunity cost of interest payment isn't an issue? You could send all your kids to college for free with the money the US spends on debt servicing each year, the UK spends more on debt servicing than it spends on defence ffs
>>52514529
The basics, like the ability to service debt, are not up for debate.
What people debate is what current monetary and borrowing policies are likely to lead to the highest growth, highest possible employment and lowest healthy inflation. These three goals have oftentimes contradictory ways of being achieved so the debate then becomes which policies to enact at what time to balance their offsetting effects.
No one is debating science, they're debating strategy.
>>52514753
Opportunity cost would be an issue if our interest payments weren't being almost completely negated by inflation.
For awhile the US government was profiting from borrowing money based on inflation alone.
>>52513970
No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6vi528gseA
>>52514643
Not true, there are tons of sciences where not all variables can be accurately predicted. This does not make them useless.
>>52513970
Debt is a meme
>>52514766
But whether simply keeping up with the servicing of debt whilst not attempting to reduce the net amount of debt or even its rate of growth may be possible, the cost at which it is possible is something else.
Surely if it gets to a point where government has massive, massive amounts of debt (say for the sake of argument at like 300% of GDP) the cost of servicing will be massive? The country may be able to avoid a default but surely when debt levels get that high markets would be really concerned about the levels and the cost of borrowing and servicing would eat up more and more of the federal budget? Surely that's not perpetually sustainable?
Sorry if I sound like I don't know what i'm talking about, finance isn't an area I know masses about
It's not as bad as it seems, but it's still bad. Pretty much everything is produced on credit these days, so we have a lot of debt that is constantly being paid off and borrowed again. I guess you could even compare our banks to the central planners in the Soviet Union since they have a lot of power to decide what gets produced and not (although the analogy breaks down on more than a surface level comparison). The real problem is that we consume on credit too.
>producer A takes out loan
>produces a good or service with it (and therefore the employees' salaries comes from that loan)
>a consumer, who is an employee of producer B whose salary also comes from a loan taken out by their employer, pays for producer A's good or service
>producer A uses that to pay off their loan
>producer A's employee buys something from producer B, and they use that to pay off their loan
And somehow everybody involved, including the banks, end up with more money than they started with. It's fucking weird how all this works.
>>52514858
>our interest payments weren't being almost completely negated by inflation
Inflation's near zero at the moment though? I know it's likely to rise at the turn of the year when the fall in commodity prices drops out of the index but even than it'll only be around 1-2% , surely that's too low for the real amount of debt to be staying constant/falling?
>>52514585
>The US is also considered the bedrock of financial market stability
kek
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%9308
>>52515150
>Inflation's near zero at the moment though?
No, it's .5% and interest rates were literally 0 or below for the longest time. You do the math.
>>52515163
That must be why literally the entire global financial system is still centered around the binary system of the US and Europe.
>>52515163
Is there a reason you're using severely out of date information?
Ok, so if US debt isn't a problem what about the UK?
IIRC they have a higher debt to GDP ratio than the USA.
>>52514983
I would argue though there's often no way of firmly testing idea in economics as there are in the natural sciences. Plus people, businesses, industries and the way our systems operate are constantly changing.
The way in which acids and alkalies never gonna change
>>52515219
>it's .5% and interest rates were literally 0 for the longest time
Are you referring to the federal reserves base rate? Because mate,
Central Bank base rates =/= Market Interest rates =/= the rate government pays on its debt
Or am i getting confused because the Feds been buying a shitload of government bonds as part of it's QE program?
Fuck this is complex, is the rate the US government pays on its debt equal to the rate of government bonds? Cos i don't fucking know what they're like at the minute but they probably are low
>>52514983
But such careers have contributed more to humanity than any economist have ever done.
Economy is useless as of today.
>>52515265
>>52515222
He does have a point though. The US and Europe have been the usual and near-constant centres of financial stability, but not always. When they're weak or experience a shock there is an issue. There's a reason why loads of capital left the US for emerging markets after the financial crash.
I don't take pointing it out as a personal insult to my country though like you burgers seem to do
>>52513970
why did it slow down in 90's and they continued to grow after 2000?
>>52514314
True.
Although there is a doomsday bubble in private debt.
>>52515424
>such careers have contributed more to humanity than any economist have ever done.
I'd take issue with that. Economics can be rather imprecise but our skills at managing macroeconomies have improve massively since the great depressed. That has a positive effect on millions of people.
Look what fucking happens when people elect economically incompetent governments, in venezuela for example. Large parts of the population suffer
>>52515528
Clinton stemmed it a bit then Bush came in.
>>52514360
USA has a sovereign currency. The Federal government can never be insolvent. They can simply spend any money they need into existence.
>>52515417
>Or am i getting confused because the Feds been buying a shitload of government bonds as part of it's QE program?
Again, I'm on holiday and don't want to get into it in depth but the simple answer is yes.
And yes the amount of interest the government pays on it's bonds is whatever the going rate is. The thing is though the vast vast majority of US securites are long term, not short term notes. In long term notes it was a wash or a profit to borrow.
That's changing since rates have just been raised but for the last decade it was literally retarded not to borrow. My bigger criticism is that they didn't seem to do shit of any use with what they borrowed
>>52515528
Based Bill Clinton was fiscally responsible.
Both the Bush presidents weren't, nor was Reagan.
I do find the Republicans current insistence of fiscal responsibility somewhat ironic
>>52515598
>>52515693
silly Clinton, it almost looks like he "had no understanding of basic finance"
>>52515641
>They can simply spend any money they need into existence.
That's true to an extend but only partially helpful until you just get inflation. The benefit to Greece of leaving the Euro would have been it could have devalued its currency and made its exports far far more competitive
>>52515803
And that's the current problem with the fed.
They never borrow enough anymore to grow inflation to the point wages are forced to rise. They've completely choked this recovery in the cradle with the rate hike. It was fucking retarded and I bet anything it gets reversed within a year.
>>52515591
You have a point, but then again, since you can never account for 100% of the ever changing factors that involve having a stable economy, you end up in crisis on the same level of 2008, or the Greek recession.
It's probably better than nothing, I suppose.
>>52514681
I like Steve Keen. Randall Wray is good, if a bit dickish. Bill mitchell is great although uses too many words. Gail Tverbeg is a rare genius.
>>52515693
Clinton was a tax-and-spend Dem. It's only because of spending cuts in the mid 90s (during which time the GOP controlled congress) that revenue outpaced deficits.
>>52515961
>It was fucking retarded and I bet anything it gets reversed within a year
I think you're right to an extent. It's odd tough, all commentary i saw on the rate rise a few months ago was mildly supportive of the rate rise but in the week before December 16th the commentary all changed and stress how this was about the Fed proving it still had a job to do and the ability to act which is probably correct.
Yeah either this'll go like the Euro in 2011 and they'll be forced to bring rates down again, or they'll just end up keeping it this low for years.
The fed's current timetable for rate rises looks like its really unrealistically optimistic about growth and inflationary pressure
>>52515979
the crisis of 2008 was more a problem with poor regulation of financial markets then a failure of economics as a discipline as a whole.
I don't personally remember what the economic consensus was on the Euro back in the late 90s but I've always though it was moronic.
Any many economist still promote the idea that the Southern European countries should leave the euro, it's more politicians and the elite that want to keep the whole project together
>>52516275
You might be right, i don't actually know, but the fact the Bush Jr. appeared to realise when he was elected 'ooh, a surplus? time for unfunded tax cuts' as soon as he was elected president, i'm tempted not to believe you
>>52515803
Inflation only really starts to rise after the economy is running at full speed. So after you have no unemployment or underemployment.
Even then it's wage inflation and is accompanied by rising real wages, assuming real resources allow gdp growth, so it's not like it's bad.
Not for the working people at least since employers have to compete for workers, and as such bid up wages and treat them with respect.
>>52516275
>>52516429
Also
>implying wasn't an economic retard with his massive tax cuts and huge military spending
>>52516324
The reason people changed their tune about the rate hike is inflation which went down. It's completely nonsensical to raise rates when inflation is dropping. Wages cannot rise without inflation or full employment, neither of which we have
>>52513970
no,it is just numbers dude
>>52515979
The Greek recession is the result of politicians refusing to listen to economists.
You really just disproved your own point.
>>52516571
>It's completely nonsensical to raise rates when inflation is dropping
Do you think it may have been a case of the fed not wanting to disrupt the financial markets that had already priced in the dollar's rise? Or is that not too important a factor, i don't know enough about markets to decide
Just start some war in somewhere unstable(MENA) and then start selling weapons for them.
>>52516324
Really interesting.
Does leaving the Euro would actually help Southern European countries at this point? How? Wouldn't that cut all the help they are receiving?
>>52516660
Sorry, I'm not an economic expert (obviously) I only have some friends in the field. Where I'm studying we joke about leaving our career in favour of studying economy if it becomes apparent that our career is too difficult for us.
>>52513970
no. You need to look at debt/gdp and interest coverage. Our government has tons of debt at super low interest rates and the ability to inflate out of it at any point. There's currently no concern of excess inflation, and its not as if the US economy is super exposed to a small group of industries or commodities like some countries.
Moreover, the scale of x and y in that chart is chosen to stretch vertically for sensationalist purpose.
I will say that we are taking on increasingly more risk and adopting an attitude that problems will be addressed later, which bears monitoring. But there is no imminent risk.
>>52514529
That's because economics as a subject is defined incorrectly, and our approaches towards economics as a subject with a "right" and a wrong answer are also gravely misguided. Economics is nothing but a political argument.
>>52514360
greece is part of a monetary union, which is the whole problem.
>>52516788
>implying that isn't the case now anyway
>implying that hasn't been the case since 1948
Brazil stop being an idiot.
>>52514681
econtalk with russ roberts is the best podcast i've ever heard, and there are tons of archived episodes about debt, fiscal policy and monetary policy. He brings on titans of academia and makes sure its accessible to undergrads.
The only concern with US debt is when the interest they have to pay on the principal is ridiculously high. That's when it becomes a problem. Other than that, nobody cares about the debt itself.
>>52516960
Why you fucks always rude?
>>52516710
No I think it's a case of the Fed inexplicably going full continental European in their attitudes toward inflation.
Europe has long been terrified of inflation to their own detriment, sapping growth. Somehow this idiotic attitude made it's way over to America and infected the Fed despite all the evidence it's counter productive. Historically the Fed always put growth and jobs ahead of controlling inflation, this no longer seems to be the case.
The (retarded) current rational for this is that our inflation rate is being artificially depressed right now due to what many (again retarded) people thing are unsustainably low energy and commodities prices. The fear is that .5% inflation could rapidly expand to 4 or 5 if we keep printing money destroying peopIe's purchasing power and fucking up the economy even worse. I (and many others) would argue these people are idiots who have learned nothing of history or basic supply and demand but no one listens to me.
tl;dr Yellen is a cowardly idiotic woman who have no idea wtf she's doing. Daily reminder she advocated significantly raising rates in the 95 too but Greenspan told her to fuck herself, let it ride and the economy killed it. She's literally always wrong.
>>52517055
>rude
>direct
Know the difference. We're direct, we don't beat around the bush because there's no point in doing that. If I wanted to be rude I would've called your opinion irrelevant and the ultimate cucks given the fact that you were alberto barbosa's colony. I didn't though, did I?
>>52516839
Leaving the Euro currency it itself would help
>>52516882
>Economics is nothing but a political argument.
Fuck off, this was turning out to be a nice thread where people actually had some idea of what they were talking, rare for /int/.
You seem to be failing to understand what economics actually is
>>52517071
I've heard interesting discussions that she is being completely torn between the US banks and the foreign finance ministers. Obviously South America, Europe, China don't want the US to raise rates when everyone else is engaging expansionary policy, but our banks have been languishing for 6 years in historically low interest rate environment. It's also fucking over people who are close to retirement here, there's no opportunity for low risk appreciation.
>>52517198
I don't know what her motivations are, all I know is he stated goals will not improve growth, job growth, or wage growth unless the gamble on energy and commodities turns out to be true and I don't think it will.
I have very little respect for a person who manages to be wrong so consistently in their career yet still inexplicably manages to get ahead in their field like Yellen.
>>52517137
>you seem to be failing to understand what economics actually is
Is that so? Then why do economics call the subject the 'science of everything'? Economists have always had a hard science envy with economics, and tried to make it a hard science-based subject. We've based everything on the neo-classical school with the occasional Keynesian embellishment, and even had the audacity to say that we've eliminated significant, catastrophic business cycle fluctuation, pre-crisis.
I'll repeat it again. Economics is nothing but a political argument. We believe that human beings behave rationally, and have done since the wealth of nations was published. We now understand that that's an approximation but not good enough of one to base our entire study of the economy on. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer to economic questions. It's simply a political argument.
>>52517198
Those banks also benefit from low interest rates homie. They have to pay interest to each other as well.
The fed raised interest rates because they think we are 1995 and not 1999.
They aren't concerned for sure.
>>52516882
True. You can't say "We want this policy because it will lower wages so we make more money. " Nor can you argue in favour of a policy that will poison the food supply. However you can argue for a free trade deal that includes easily influenced tribunals which will let you undercut real food with heavy metal contaminated GMOs. Any attempts to limit that can be prevented with 'arbitration'.
>>52516429
>>52516479
Clinton's economic success was because of the dotcom bubble
>>52517537
He actually isn't that retarded, unlike Pablo Iglesias.
>>52517395
As an economist I agree and disagree in part.
In economics there are theories and arguments that are valid 98% of the time and theories and arguments that are valid 70% of the time. The 70% lead to the policies that lead to black swan crises that cause that 98% to be wrong as well.
So the 70% argument that the Great Moderation of 81'-2007' would continue because of effective government policies and more information to make the markets more efficient and rational, happened to start becoming more and more inaccurate as 2003-2005 wore on. That led to the 98% policy that higher interest rates pull down inflation, but the fact a financial problem had been developing since 1995, led to the 2% complete failure of all policies that caused the Great Recession.
>>52517725
Clarification: Inflation rose in 2004-2006 so we hiked interest rates 325 basis points over those two years. That helped slow the economy enough in late 2007 to pop the housing market bubble and throw the financial markets into disarray.
>>52517672
;__;
We will become the Venezuela of Europe.
>>52517441
Netted out, higher interest rates are a tailwind for banks, go listen to their conference calls.
>>52517964
How likely are the different coalition options for your next government?
Is Socialists-Podemos most likely or would they need Cuidadanos as well?
Or are PP and Socialists gonna club together to keep the new parties out or do they hate each other too much
>>52517725
I'm not debasing or fundamentally disagreeing with the validity of economic theories, however what I am saying is that the way we look at the subject has distorted economics as a subject. We've become obsessed with rational choice theory and realize that it only gets us so far. I'm talking about the nature we theorize about economics, as opposed to the fine details of it.
>reasoning behind the financial crisis of 2007
Whilst I agree in part with what you're saying, I feel like the underlying cause of the 2008 financial crisis was more in line with shadow banking and off-balance-sheet derivative activities. A lot of money was based on something that was uncomfortably close to a Ponzi scheme. That and the fact that when drawing up risk for these instruments, whether ABCP's, CDO's, CMO's, etc. we severely understimated the collinearity of theoretically unrelated assets.
If you have time, I really recommend reading a book called Economics: The User's Guide. It was written by Ha-Joon Chang, an economics professor at Cambridge. I think he's on to something, in regards to how economics should be looked at post-2008.
>>52518226
How do you view Jeremy Corbyn in the U.K.?
>>52517602
Not only that, we rarely distinguish between economic growth & economic development as well. Our outlook on production is dictated almost exclusively by the Cobb-Douglas function, which I also feel is an oversimplification of what it is. So many things are built on seeing the economy as a collection of individual consumers rather than looking at the bigger picture, which I feel is distorting our outlook on things.
>>52518323
Me personally, or the general population?
>>52518395
Both.
>>52517198
>It's also fucking over people who are close to retirement here, there's no opportunity for low risk appreciation.
I've never been a huge fan of this argument desu. That demographic is not who drives the economy and the one that is the one hurt by a raise in rates before wage and job growth takes.
>>52518226
Podemos has been talking shit on all the other parties ever since some bogus statistics shown them as 1st political force. They're absolute trash, the worst of the worst of all the populistic trash. They fashion like if theyre movement if only uni graduates and intellectuals when all their followers are braindead leftie unemployed entitled bitches. So nobody will pact with them. Maybe PSOE because Pedro Sanchez is one power-hungry bitch that actually believes he will be the next president of Spain, lmao
Nobody will ever make a coalition with PP. No matter how well they performed (even though I think they were rather mediocre), they are seen as the all-corrupt party and nobody will even consider it. Ciudadanos is one of these "big tent" parties that has been proven to be way less successful than expected.
So only two options:
1) Patched up multi-party coalition that won't work and leave the country a mess.
2) Elections again in two months.
Sorry to leave you like this but nobody knows what the fuck is going to happen here.
>>52518440
I think he's a heart-over-head hard-lefty that has very little to offer the country. He seems economically illiterate and his view on foreign policy is cucked as fuck.
He has some a handful of valid points but for the most part he's fucking clueless, and riding a wave of middle-class leftism of people who want to feel like they're doing good without looking at the reality of what they advocate.
I think most people in the centre and even to a degree the centre-left think the same as me. The only people that seem fond of him are far-lefties and people that would vote for labour even if they put dog up for election.
It's a long and complicated issue but basically he's a useless, cuck.
>>52518252
Are you the Chink in Netherlands?
Thank you for the recc btw.
I'm just of the view that 2008 was caused by government and monetary policy, not as much the shadow ponzi scheme in the housing sector.
You would think the bubble would have popped earlier in 2000-2001, but it stayed alive. Why? I think it was because our government was able to spend more 2001-2003 and the Fed cur rates from 5.5% to 1%.
We weren't able to do that as much in 2008 because debt had built up and rates were only 4.25%
>>52518825
>Sorry to leave you like this but nobody knows what the fuck is going to happen here.
Fair play lad, thanks for informing me. I quite liked the look of Cuidadanos at first glace but i haven't looked into them in any detail
>>52518963
Oh, forgot to mention that the patched up coalition, if happens, will be leftist.
>>52518825
You seem biased as fuck.
21% of spaniards aren't braindead leftist fucktards. If they were then PP wouldn't have recieved 46% in 2011.
PP is corrupt. They are based upon the unfair rural/urban weighting in the spanish political system. Literally an electoral college system.
PP performed well? Hahaha a fucking monkey could do well after the 12% 2008-2013 drop.
PP has got super easy monetary policy, a weak euro, and help from the EU. They are not the reason Spain is growing 3% this year.
Coalition.
>>52519138
No, he is right, anyone supporting Podemos is braindead. And I am a lefty faggot who would vote for either Sanders or Warren if I could.
>>52519138
>let me tell you about your country
Thank you for your insight.
>>52515559
Which has no effect on sovereign debt. And personal debt has actually decreased in the past few years.
>>52518954
While I agree generally I worked in the housing sector immediately after that and yeah..we were doing some fucked up shit. It was a drop in the bucket relatively speaking when measured against the systemic problems as a whole but yeah we definitely needed some regulation.
We used to have one of those Xray backlight reader things on the wall so you could put documents up there and perfectly trace signatures. Not even kidding.
>>52515497
Except your point is factually incorrect. Even during the weakest point during the financial crisis, the US and Europe were both still orders of magnitude more central to international finance than anywhere else in the world.
>>52513970
Debt doesn't matter when you have a military power that can 1vs all in 2 hours
>>52519221
Though, I'm not sure which is worse, Podemos or PP.
>>52518840
Why is Cameron such a liar about immigration? Why is the FPTP system still used in the UK? Are you okay with becoming America 2.0 when your multicultural society ends up not being British anymore?
I'm moderate on economic policy and social policy, but I absolutely detest the murder of the middle class that is going on because od both of our conservative and liberal parties.
Soon enough we're going to be a poor brown underclass with a shrinking white middle class and a tiny super rich globalist elite. Laughing the whole way to the bank.
White people are fucked either way. Might as well make the best of it eh?
>>52519361
US sovereign debt currently (not generally) does not matter, that is correct. Your stated reason why is not.
>>52519228
I know more about your country's economy than you do. 21% of your country isn't braindead. Just because you enjoy getting cucked by the rich does not mean leftists are braindead.
There are many leftist economists. You just happen to accept the German EU as your solution to everything, when that's exactly what led to 2008.
>>52519253
a massive burst in a private debt bubble would cause some real turmoil in sovereign debt tho.
>>52519361
Doesn't matter while you can still fuel the war machine.
A rekt economy is a rekt country.
>>52519399
PP are closet social democrats, aka right socialists aka neocons.
Potemos are straight pinkos that will kill our country if ever in power.
>>52519257
>implying you guys still aren't
>>52518954
>chink in the Netherlands?
Noep, just a friendly sandnignog.
I get your argument, but I think the reasons behind it are a bit different to be frank, but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, since you have a reasonable argument behind it.
>>52518825
Pffff
>I have been brainwashed and repeat like a parrot what TV says.
>>52518963
>Ciudadanos
>Scam
Pick two.
>>52519489
Not particularly. It would hurt consumer spending and whatnot just like the subprime mortgage crisis did, but it would have next to no effect on the ability of the government to continue to service sovereign debt.
>>52519472
Financier here and this guy is right.
Austerity is economic suicide.
>>52518673
I'm not saying its a reason enough to guide monetary policy, but it's absolutely something to consider.
>>52519472
>I know more about your country's economy than you do
>le rich are evil leftist meme
Keep trying, idiot.
>>52519534
¿Coleta morada no fumar la pipa de la paz?
Que te den por culo, tio. La basura podemita vais de intelectuales pero sois lo peor de lo peor.
>>52519516
No we actually stopped believe it or not. RESPA will rape your face even for accidental errors and fraud straight up gets you sent to prison now. I once saw a guy get arrested at a closing believe it or not.
I don't write loans anymore though.
>>52519228
He is correct, though.
>>52519221
I don't think you know enough from Podemos appart from what media wants to tell you.
I voted for them last Sunday while I disagree with many of their ideas. But they have other good ones and this country needs a change. So, the lesser evil.
Braindead are those that think that they will destroy this country.
>>52519426
Are you retarded?Nobody can match the USA in military power
China,India,Russia, would get absolutely rekt.
>>52519539
something of that magnitude would destroy consumer spending, lead to a lot of layoffs, and it would cause a shock to tax revenue. Though the consumer debt crisis wouldn't carry the catastrophic risk that 2008 did.
>>52519549
>Austerity is economic suicide
Agree with this, especially under these conditions.
>>52519253
It's shrinking because a lot of the debt is flowing into the Fed and the Federal/State governments.
We essentially took private debt and converted it to public debt to stop the recession. It is hoped that once Americans have saved enough they will start spending again.
>>52519593
>Ultramegabutthurt.
Si eso es todo lo que tienes...
>>52519593
I do. You think that the PP has caused the economic recovery. That's just plain wrong.
>>52519472
>You just happen to accept the German EU as your solution to everything
And yet Podemos claim their firmly pro-european, just anti-austerity. That's cognitive dissonance if i've ever heard it
>>52519534
>Ciudadanos
>Scam
How so lad?
>>52519653
I mean I hate to admit it because my job is to be as big a Jew as possible but it's a fact right now.
How none of the people in power can grasp this concept is beyond me.
>>52519534
>>52519627
I have relatives living in Spain, on of which is a journalist. He is a lefty, the same as I am, and he is actually quite decent and honest.
Man, Podemos is Venezuela tier leftism. It's suicide to vote for their messianic retarded leader, Pablo Iglesias.
The same thing happens in Mexico. If leftist in this country weren't such fucking stupid, I would vote for them over PRI any day. But as it is right now, everybody is equally bad for us.
ITT we have opinions
>>52519629
Lol.
China+Russia+allies would be a 50-50 against the US if we tried attacking them. And you are forgetting about nukes.
>>52515163
god, i hate faggots like you that don't know shit and add nothing to the discussion. just shut the fuck up, mate
>>52519534
>>52519627
>si no te gusta potemos es porque la casta te ha lavado el cerebro.
Espera, que ya lo digo por ti:
¡CONSPIRACIÓN! ¡SÍ SE PUEDE! ¡SÍ SE PUEDE! ¡SÍ SE PUEDE! ¡OEEEOEEE OEEE OEEEEÉ!!
>>52519668
Disfruta de tu fibra óptica todo lo que puedas, que el internet venezolano está por llegar.
>>52519779
Nuclear deterrance.
Without nukes, USA would just deploy stealth bombers,bombing airbases and other important infrastructures without others having time to react.
>>52519756
congratulations, you've now figured out the core of economic discourse, even under leading economists.
>>52519718
It's not that they don't/don't want to, it's that the methodology they use so religiously presents them from seeing it as such.
>>52519711
You can be Pro-EU and anti-German forced austerity senpai.
Cuidadanos is Podemos' opposite. Essentially promising a lot when they would deliver very little.
>>52519756
Fuck you. You don't know anything about opinions.
>>52519711
>How so lad?
Because they are basically PP 2.0 Electric Boogaloo Edition. Same shit with another name. But people think they are somehow different.
>>52519737
The differences between Spain and Venezuela are abysmal so things could work the same way.
Also, the fact that some people in Podemos maybe have had ties with Venezuela (and even then, they have critizised a lot of what has been done there) doesn't mean that every member of Podemos are.
But media likes to use fear to direct the votes. There are a good amount of places where Podemos is in the gobern and the world hasn't ended.
Interest rates have gone up.
Prepare for DOOM.
>>52519854
We have 20 of which 15 are working. We might bomb a few of their bases but B2's don't carry much and there are a thousand bases.
They would then light up the sky with long band radar which would detect B2's.
The US army is 200,000 active soldiers. We are a tenth of China alone. Our navy's are similar sizes, but we have carriers.
So they can't project power and we can, but we can't project enough to win WW3 by ourselves.
Nukes make it all pointless unless we are trying to fuck with Netherland sandnigs.
>>52519945
>But media likes to use fear to direct the votes.
¡CONSPIRACIÓN! ¡SÍ SE PUEDE! ¡SÍ SE PUEDE! ¡SÍ SE PUEDE! ¡OEEEOEEE OEEE OEEEEÉ!!
>>52519823
>Projecting this hard
Eres tú el que está diciendo cosas de los demás. Pero es que encima ni siquiera es original, sólo lo que dice la tele.
Piensa por ti mismo, campeón. Nivelazo.
>>52519953
That's true. And it has happened EVERYSINGLETIME we have had elections. Incredible!
>>52519998
>I'm desesperate to hide by butt bleeding.
>69
>>52519993
nobody can reach america,their only chance is to bombard from the outside,which is pretty impossible because i'm sure america has one of the best anti-air systems in the world
>>52520016
>sólo lo que dice la tele.
We have an equivalent for that here
>You are against AMLO (a retarded leftist messianic leader) because you watch too much Televisa
That's the last thing I'm going to say, because I'll admit that I'm not particularly knowledgeable about Spain politics, besides of what some relatives have told me, and I don't want to keep derailing the thread.
Good luck with your country anyway.
>>52519998
Hahaha you think the media doesn't project biases?
The media of the US and Europe dislikes parties outside the mainstream because the media is controlled by those parties' elite supporters.
Notice that US media dislikes Bernie, and Trump. Britain's dislikes the Greens, and Farage. Le Pen, and the Commies. AFP and die linke. SD in Sweden. Hungary's Orban. And Poland's Civic Justice.
Americans should be concerned, because when they start printing money to pay the denbts the average Americans will turn into Ameripoors.
>>52520131
We have garbage air defense systems in terms of surface-to-air missiles meant to target aircraft. There was never a real reason for us to have them since we're too far away from everyone else to be feasibly attacked by more than a handful of aircraft.
>>52520131
They would nuke us if they needed to.
No one is letting foreign troops on their soil. If that happens nuclear threats begin.
Pointless discussion here. America had a bloated military that should be half its current size. The good thing is that inefficiency and idiotic procurement choices have done that for us. The bad thing is that it costs just as much.
>>52520190
>Good luck with your country anyway.
Thanks Mexibro. You too.
Also, nah.
>>52520100
>>I'm desesperate to hide by butt bleeding.
Yo no soy el que apoya un memepartido que ha quedado tercero.
>>52513970
Personally I don't give a fuck, it's not my debt.
>>52520488
But it will be your savings that will devalue when they start printing money.
>>52520219
Except you're completely wrong. Inflation is way too low.
>>52520525
>when they start printing money.
>when
Literallt wtf do you think we've been doing for ten years? And look, inflation is still at fucking .5% which is too low. We SHOULD be printing money but the dumbass Fed just raised interests rates because Yellen doesn't know her ass from her elbow.
>>52520474
Eres tú el que muestra estar escocido todo el rato, así que es evidente quien está picado desde el minuto uno.
A mi lo que hayas votado me da igual, no te lo echo en cara. Eso sí, no voy a diciendo las mismas tonterias que dice la tele, como un borrego. Porque esa es la triste realidad, no has dicho más que lo que dicen los voceros del régimen, cometiendo los mismos errores y varias personas te han dicho en este mismo hilo que estás equivocado. Pero nada, tú sigue pensando que eres un genio de la política aunque no tengas ni puta idea.
Un abrazo. Y para lo demás, hemoal.
>>52514529
>year 1980
>''japan is going to overtake the US in terms of total gdp within the next 30 years
>year 2010
>us gdp: 16 gorillion
>jap gdp: 4 gorillion
fuck economics, it's all made up anyway
>>52520733
It's 17.4 gorillion tbf.
>>52520733
well but 2bh Japan hasn't more than 100 millon people (vs USA's 300 millon) while China has 1300 millon people..
>>52520733
>>52520776
Oh wait I just saw >year 2010. Mea culpa sloveniabro.
>>52520792
Japan has 130 million people.
>>52520870
right, still my point stands, the chinks still have plenty of "room" to expand.
>>52520792
i wasn't even arguing that
i'm simply stating that economists made some calculations and missed by like a million percent
that's why i feel like it's all a big scam sometimes.
>>52520525
only if your savings are cash or bonds
