Why do people, especially Americans, insist that Germany spend more and do more militarily?
>>51750396
I keep hearing reports that the Bundeswehr is a poorly funded joke that it can't even keep it's bomber fleet airworthy with funding cuts.
Surely Germany deserves criticism if the concept of NATO collective defence is weakened by Germany being substandard?
>>51750544
>bomber fleet
m8 we dont have bombers
theyre ebul and start attack wars, dont you know? :^)
>>51750396
Because you're a muslim and russian cocksucking sponge.
>>51750544
But Germany's spending is average in the alliance. See pic related. Why pick on Germany? I don't hear them picking on Spain for spending even less and doing next to nothing even though that's exactly what Spain does. (no offence to Spain)
>>51750629
You have Tornados which are strike bombers you idiot.
>>51750728
Probably because Spain is poor as shit and you are not.
Also 90% of your military spending isn't even military spending. It's shit like pensions, diversity training, and gender neutral bathrooms.
>>51750699
You must be confusing something. The country that sucked commie cock was the US of A.
>>51750396
The German military is a clapped out wreck. It needs an overhaul, it is not much use at this point.
>>51750835
>le fascism is less evil than communism meme
You're both scum.
Regardless I'm talking about right now when you get on your knees for Putin and his corrupt oligarchs at any given opportunity.
>>51750396
Might makes right. If you cannot protect your country, your possessions, etc. then it is not yours. This is the exact reason I have guns.
>>51750818
Better than having to spend it on mobility scooters for your 'special' forces
>>51750818
Spain's condition is a very recent development. I didn't hear them calling on Spain to do more before the Euro crisis. So that really can't be the reason. Luxemburg isn't poor either and spends the least of all. Nobody's bothering them.
And our share of spending for personnel etc. is comparable to France's. It's about 50%.
>>51750963
You are kind of stupid man.
>>51750629
Yes you do you eternal kuck.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34983396
>>51750728
If it's below the 2% they are getting told to up it as well, not just Germany.
The fact is we're eating off the Americans defence spending cake at the moment and if they at any moment turn around to Europe and rightly tell us to look after ourselves then we should listen.
>>51750818
What is %of GDP you mongoloid
>>51750728
ours is 1.4% now I think
>>51751008
Spain was spending far more before the euro crisis.
Luxembourg is an irrelevant ass city state.
If you spend equal to France then why does their shit actually work? An excuse that you're piss poor at management is also not acceptable.
>>51750963
>I'm talking about right now
The now is the consequence of the before now. You're complaining that we're doing as you told us. How stupid is that?
>>51751042
Something Spain can't afford to do due to the massive amount of debt they are currently in.
You have no debt. Why can't you hit 2%?
>>51750888
Regardless of whether that's true or merely a baseless claim or exaggeration, it doesn't really answer the question.
>>51750396
?
>Implying germany has a standing military.
>>51750728
"It's 2015"
- le weed man
>>51750396
Because you're supposed to be one of the leaders of Europe. You should at least be matching France.
>>51751295
>Because you're supposed to be one of the leaders of Europe
Uhm.. No? They were supposed to be the opposite..
>You should at least be matching France.
Kek. If France had let them, they would have matched and raised... But that's not how things went.
>>51751036
>If it's below the 2% they are getting told to up it as well, not just Germany.
I really don't think that's the case. At least they're not really being picked out. But Germany is. There's a big difference between a general "everybody in the alliance should spend 2% of GDP" and "Germany should spend more to comply with 2% of GDP and it needs to engage more militarily on the international stage"
>>51751198
It is true. A large part of German military vehicles and equipment are non-operational. Germany is the largest economy in the Eurozone, it should not have a military which is falling apart. The German contribution to global security is very small, they have negligible ability to project force or provide disaster assistance.
The Germans need an army to defend themselves and their allies. The Russians are increasingly aggressive. Germany should be leading in military design, manufacturing, efficiency and innovation.
>>51751118
>Spain was spending far more before the euro crisis.
But that's not true. Look up the NATO numbers:
http://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2015_06/20150622_PR_CP_2015_093-v2.pdf
Between 2000 and 2004 they spent 1.2 % of GDP on average. Germany 1.4%.
Between 2005 and 2009 they spent 1.1 % of GDP on average. Germany 1.3%.
>If you spend equal to France then why does their shit actually work?
Our contribution to Afghanistan was actually greater than France's. And we stayed there longer than the French.
Why is Germany being picked out?
>>51751421
>I really don't think that's the case. At least they're not really being picked out. But Germany is.
Germany gets more attention because Germany, or at least Merkel, attempts to lead in European politics.
>>51751186
>Why can't you hit 2%
Why should we? Our spending is average. I've already shown that. Yet, we're being picked out.
>>51751779
>we're being picked out.
Probably in your own media, since it's in German.
>>51751281
And Germany is still right in the middle. Why target us so viciously?
>>51750396
So we won't have to, you fucking mooch.
Europe is the national security equivalent of a NEET living off parents and welfare.
>>51751779
>Our spending is average.
No, it isn't. It's far below your treaty obligations which is why you're sponges.
>>51751845
>viciously
Calm down
If Germany acts like a Great Power (which it does try to) then it will be judged against the other major powers. The powerful countries have more responsibilities, it's basic geopolitics bruv. Calm your tits alright?
>>51751295
>Because you're supposed to be one of the leaders of Europe.
Who comes up with such nonsense? Everyone else in Europe hates the tiniest hint of a German leadership or dominance or diktat or whatever they call it.
>>51751779
>Our spending is average.
The German military is falling apart. If it is to stop falling apart, more money is required. The fact the German military has got into this condition is a disgrace.
>>51751718
>attempts to lead
We were actually pushed into this role after much reluctance and immediately got told for being a bully once we decided something.
>>51751537
>The Germans need an army to defend themselves and their allies. The Russians are increasingly aggressive. Germany should be leading in military design, manufacturing, efficiency and innovation.
That's still a general critique which, if true, is applicable to about 80% of the alliance's members. But I only hear it towards Germany. Why?
>>51751833
You can read the same in English media.
>>51752210
Because you're the only one with plenty of resources to get your shit together, you just refuse to do so.
>>51751886
Which in international politics is every parent's dream. No world power likes competitors.
>>51752210
>general critique
The level of disrepair the German military is in is without precedent in modern history for a country which is that stable and prosperous. The German armed forces could not fight their way out of a paper bag at this point.
Nobody else is in a similar condition. Throughout NATO the various armed forces are either improving, growing, becoming more useful or more committed. The German armed forces are in reverse on all those points.
>>51752344
The articles here only lament on how poorly maintained German equipment is and then points to the low funding as a possible reason.
>>51751888
So is that of most of the other members. Which makes us average. But they're not being picked on like we are.
>>51752422
Then don't compete with us. Continue to serve the western cause but do it with your own troops.
The military spending over here is fucking brutal.
>>51750396
You aren't a racial German, I have nothing to discuss Germany with you.
>>51752210
Because we do our part, UK is almost out of the EU, Spain is broke and the others do what they can but it's not much.
You are the only one to not care. Even captain Sweden invest in modern weapon systems.
>>51752471
Most of the other treaty members (with the possible except of Canada who gets the same treatment) are either completey irrelevent or broke as fuck. Stop trying to act as if you're in the same situation, you are not.
>>51751965
>If Germany acts like a Great Power (which it does try to)
Not really. Germany is the one that acts most towards hedging German power by e.g. proposing a European military, increasing European integration etc. But that's what the others don't want.
And if it's a size thing then why isn't Japan being told? Their economy is even bigger than ours. But I've never heard them being criticized for not spending enough or not being involved enough militarily. It really is something about Germany. And I just don't know why.
>>51752649
Japan is not in NATO you idiot, and we did tell them to start spending more which they did
>>51752686
You also forbid them from having an army, hence why they spend 2% of their GDP in "coastguards"
>>51752004
That's an exaggeration. And you know it. You could say the same about others. But we hear that country specific critique only in case of Germany.
>>51752649
>I've never heard them being criticized for not spending
They are spending, they are 3/4s of the way through a massive overhaul. Their ships, aircraft and equipment are top drawer.
>>51752826
This is true.
Point being they are not in NATO and are irrelevent to the discussion.
>>51752844
>That's an exaggeration.
No, it is not. 2/3rds of German IFVs are broken, 2/3rds of German attack helicopters are broken. The transport aircraft inventory has an operational rate lower than a scrap yard. More than half of the Tornados and Eurofighters are in the shed.
It is a disgrace.
>>51752420
It's definitely not a size thing. I've never heard Japan being criticized for not spending according to their economic power. "You got the money" seems to be an excuse. I'd like to know the real reason.
>>51753285
For the billionth time Japan is not in fucking NATO, they are not in treaty obligation to assist in the defense of 20 other nations.
>>51752446
Keep it real. This thread is meant as a serious discussion.
>>51753285
Japan's debt is far bigger than Greece's. They are busy not collapsing but still manage to have a decent army.
Stop looking for an excuse and give us the army you deserve.
>>51753569
Fine, let's talk about reality. Why does your planes are not bombing ISIS? You said you will send them.
Ho, it's right, it's because too many of them can't even fly.
>>51753285
Japan isn't in NATO you dumb fuck. They have no obligation to spend a set amount.
You've already been told, are you thick?
>>51753285
>I've never heard Japan being criticized for not spending according to their economic power.
Because they have been upgrading and enlarging their military. They have new transport helicopters, V-22 Ospreys, new helicopter carriers, upgraded intelligence aircraft, new ASW aircraft, new UAVs.
The mess the German military is in is well known. Did you arrive in the country recently?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/ramshackle-army-at-odds-with-berlin-s-global-aspirations-a-994607.html
>>51752548
Roleplaying as a country doesn't really answer the question. But thanks for the effort.
>>51750728
We do more than I would like fir us to do, germankuck.
>Lebanon
>Afghanistan
>Sahel
>T*rkey
>Indian Ocean/Somalia/Djibouti
>>51752564
>You are the only one to not care.
What is "not care" supposed to mean? That we differ in opinions on what role NATO should play isn't exactly something uniquely German.
>>51752686
They're at below 1% of GDP and not nearly getting the same level of criticism.
>>51753241
Where do you get those numbers? And how can the German military be present in a dozen places around the world when suposedly it can't do shit?
>>51754656
The Japanese military has excellent modern equipment and vehicles. The German military is a pile of shit.
>>51753489
The treaty doesn't mention any spending target. So that's an irrelevant rebuttal.
>>51754818
>Where do you get those numbers?
The German media.
Turk detected.
>>51753833
You show me the spending obligation in this document:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty
When Germany's spending is being publicly criticized the NATO membership isn't an issue. The line of reasoning is always: "You're big. You could afford it. You should act according to your economic weight."
>>51753629
They have no problems financing themselves. So that's entirely uncomparable.
>give us the army you deserve
Is that a Freudian slip?
It would make us feel safer
>>51753731
6 planes have been promised. And they will come as promised, lest any opposition politician takes the issue before the constitutional court which might rule the mission unlawful under international law. Additionally we send a frigate to escort the CDG aircraft carrier and a tanker aircraft. The current mandate allows up to 1200 soldiers.
>>51753929
>Because they have been upgrading and enlarging their military.
And they are still punching well below their economic weight. Much more than Germany actually. They should have an army about 50% bigger than Germany's if both countries were jugded equally.
>>51754929
Why don't you post the source then?
>saving dat IC in unit maintenance while building more IC
>>51754890
The spending target is set by the treaties council. To ignore it is to ignore the validity of the council which should have been implicit in signing the treaty that established it.
Speaking as an American, I get EXHAUSTED that the whole world expects the USA to take care of them militarily. It costs so much money to play """"world police""" because everyone else is too fucking lazy to finance their own militaries. It makes me angry when I hear of some European nation that has all this cushy welfare but when it comes time to making the world a better place they run crying to the USA to solve it for them.
I would love for the USA to go hardcore isolationist with our military. Let Europe and the Middle East go into WWIII. I'm tired.
>>51754879
>The Japanese military has excellent modern equipment and vehicles.
Which they do nothing with. Nobody's bothering them on doing something internationally. Nobody tells them to meddle in the Middle East or North Africa. Yet when we abstained from the UNSC vote on Libya we got real heat. Now, a couple of years later, American intelligence top brass admit that Libya was a mistake and we're still being criticized for essentually being the only one who got it right beforehand. It's fucking ridiculous. The heat we get. This thread provides ample evidence. There's something completely irrational and very emotional about the whole argument and I want to know what it is.
Seriously, look at this shit. We are constantly there for Europe, but they are never ever there for us.
Finance your own fucking militaries and stop clinging to our coattails.
>>51755719
>I would love for the USA to go hardcore isolationist with our military
If we did so, I wonder how long before we saved enough money to pay off the national debt?
>>51755668
If it was about that one decision to spend as much in ten years time the critique would be valid in ten years time. But it started way earlier before the summit published that declaration. So that's not the real reason.
>>51755946
If we went truly hardcore isolationist we'd be out of debt within a year.
When I look at >>51755840, I wonder how the world would be if we never bothered rebuilding West Europe after WWII.
>>51755719
Don't paint all European countries with the same brush though
>>51755719
Others get exhausted that the US is meddling in their neighborhood and retreating across the ocean when things go south and leave others to deal with the mess they leave behind.
>>51756141
Maybe the rest of the world should just behave itself so we don't have to do anything.
>>51756036
Except the 2% target was already the target before the super serious resolution was passed and you were ignoring it.
>>51756211
And there's the world police attitude back again. Perhaps complaining about having to play that role is a cheap excuse?
>>51750728
>no offence to Spain
Since "Slam big infantry brick into enemy infantry brick" war has been faggotry and we don't care.
>>51756299
It's not our fault that other countries force us to bomb them.
>>51756250
No, there were differing opinions all along and still are. It was only last year's summit that the alliance formally agreed on that. Of course if you only hear American voices you may have missed that.
>>51756141
Then stop fucking up and asking USA to meddle in your neighborhood. We didn't ask for Germans to elect Hitler. You are welcome for all those Marshall plan dollars btw.
>>51756350
See? No exhaustion.
>spending money on "defense"
State-sponsored terrorism would be a better name for it.
>>51751281
i bet it's troll
>>51756404
Who exactly asked for Iraq? The real reason for ISIS and the refugees.
>>51756457
t. leftist german kek
>>51755840
That's your own keked pop shitting on you m8, not us.
not OP, but I think it's quite funny how OP makes some good point, gets called out on 'our defense falling apart', but when he asks for sources, the others stay quiet.
>>51756511
Saddam Hussein was a tyrannical murderous dictator, not too different from Hitler. And USA giving Iraq a democracy is "the real reason for ISIS?" you sure? I think Middle Easterners and Europeans racing to join ISIS is the reason for ISIS.
Once again, everyone else is mindless childern who can't help their own actions, and its all USA's fault for giving them too much freedom. "Without a tyrannical and murderous dictator in place, its no wonder they all turned to terrorism! He may have been murderous but at least the trains ran on time!"
Nah. They chose to turn to terrorism. We aren't your daddy. We spend billions of dollars setting up a democracy in Iraq and fair elections. That they decided to shit on that and form yet another terrorist group is their own decision. Not ours.
>>51756815
Kim jung un is a tyrannical, murderous dictator. why not go there and help them establish a democracy? or is it beause the invasion of iraq wasn't all about helping the poor people over there out
>>51756741
When Europe suffered through a terrorist shooting, Americans tweeted messages of solidarity with #jesuischarlie and #prayforparis, our President came to visit them and express his sympathies, we lit up our buildings in the colors of the French flag, we changed our facebook pictures to the French flag, I saw many Americans on 4chan talking about "our little brother and greatest ally France".
When a terrorist shooting happens in the USA I didn't see any of that coming from Europeans. Just the same tired banter that always happens. French posters weren't talking about "they messed with the wrong country our big bro and greatest ally America".
Its pathetic. Fuck Europe. Deal with your own shit for once.
>>51756924
Because China was protecting them up until the point they blew up their first nuke and the Chinese realized they were being fucked over. Now it's too late.
But yes, they should have been invaded too and probably would have been without Chinese backing.
>>51756929
It's objectively a smaller attack and less significant.
When 9/11 happened the UK joined the states for a bloody rampage across the Middle East so don't call us out on shit that your media pushes.
Because Germany is our ally and has the potential to help defend Europe
>>51750396
Because Germany obliged itself to do it.
>>51756815
The US destroyed the existing Iraqi state with the illegal invasion. However bad that state was it didn't commit acts of international terrorism. That's a fact. Only through the destruction of that state could ISIS form. The failure of the US to prevent the oppression of the religious minority by the newly formed "democratic" Iraqi government was the soil that ISIS could grew on.
You went in, caused a mess, called it day even though your own newspapers were already calling it a quagmire, then you left when nothing was really in order and the shit hit the fan.
Then you acts as if you were aked to do what you did and complain that you always have to do everything. Is this satire?
>>51756924
>why not go there and help them establish a democracy?
Because Americans are fucking TIRED of having to do everything else FOR you people. That is why. Hell, America TRIED to give Koreans democracy with the Korean War. Another stupid war which killed countless Americans. We gave the South freedom, but we got tired of fighting for the North. So now the South has first world standards of living (you are welcome for any South Koreans are reading), at the USA's expense....and the North is a hellhole dictatorship (I know no North Koreans are reading).
The USA has had the same stable Republic for over 200 years. Meanwhile Europe and Asia have flopped through too many monarchies and dictators to even count in that same 200 years, in spite of being around for much longer. And its always always the USA's fault. USA sacrifices hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of lives to bring the Middle East some democracy? Its OUR FAULT when those same Middle Easterners (along with plenty of Europeans) then run to join terrorist groups. Because Middle Easterers are clearly tiny children who need the stability of a monstrous dictatorship and are unable to stop themselves from becoming terrorists.
>>51757117
Nothing the US does internationally can be illegal.
>>51757054
I don't think he was talking about you guys but continentals.
Not even you consider yourselves Europeans so I'm not sure why you would expect us to.
>>51757054
The Charlie Hebdo shooting was smaller than the San Bernardino shooting. I know the UK has been a good ally to us and has pretty much pulled its own weight.
>>51750396
If germany doesnt want to spend more it should quit nato, only dont cry when Poland decides it needs more przestrzeń życiowa
>>51757117
It actually wasn't illegal. Saddam broke the terms of the ceasefire from the Gulf War. Technically we had every right to reestablish hostilities.
>>51757184
Besides, this is a thread about a critique towards Germany. The fact that Americans join this thread to make it about America and complain that America must always do everything is hilarious. How self-absorbed can you be?
>>51757117
>The US destroyed the existing Iraqi state with the illegal invasion
The existing...murderous, tyrannical, dictatorship? Oh no?
>acts of international terrorism
So its okay for Middle Easterners to terrorize their own subjects as long as it doesn't hurt Europe. Hmm ok.
> Only through the destruction of that state could ISIS form.
No. Only through the WILLFUL PERPETUATION OF TERRORISM BY MIDDLE EASTERNERS AND EUROPEANS could ISIS form. Once again, Old Worlders are not animals or children. They are the ones who deliberately made ISIS, and they are the ones who deliberately sign up. USA never forced anyone to join ISIS. You guys chose to join ISIS of your own free will. Stop blaming USA for YOUR decisions.
We are expected to be their literal babysitters and hold their hands every step of the way.
>>51757146
>Try to clean up the mess only to leave a mess that is guaranteed to fester for entire fucking generations
>Some people dare to criticize such an approach
>SCREW YOU GUYS, WE WILL WALL OFF AMERIGA FOR GOOD! DONALD TRUMP WILL MAKE AMERIGA GREAT AGAIN!
:^]
>>51756107
Gommunism would have won. We would all be living peacefully in our commie blocks and working faithfully to succeed our current five-year-plan for a brighter future in Marxist-Leninist utopia.
Fuck you for ruining this imperialist pig.
>>51757265
>>51757265
which one actually?
>>51757310
No, the OP asks "Why do Americans want Germans to spend money on our own military??? Bawww, why can't Americans do all the work for us????"
Then the comments section like "Everytime an Old Worlder joins a terrorist organization its the Americans fault!!! They made us do it by taking away the horrible tyrannical murderous dictators who were stopping us from committing horrible tyrannical acts of terrorism!!! Americans are practically forcing us to join ISIS!!" Fuck that. Grow up and take some responsibility for your own lives. For once. Just once.
>>51750396
out of 96 tornado, 66 left and 26 able to flight...
this has turned into a gr8 b8 m8 thread. well played USA. We will never find the answer to the question
>>51757146
This needs to be edited into an americanbear.jpg but I'm too lazy at the moment
>>51757453
The 80 times he blocked or expelled weapons inspectors comes to mind among other things.
>>51757434
>leftists in charge of accepting facts.
>>51757510
We already know the answer. You limp wristed faggots need to stop trying to exert economic control over Europe, and start pulling your share of the weight in NATO
Why build a stong standing army when you have the strongest standing military in the world stationed on your soil? It's a waste of capital for Germany to build an fighting force the size of France's or the UK's when America does all the fighting for them. Honestly, the only reason why the UK and France have the militaries they have is because theyre clinging to their pasts.
>>51757369
>The existing...murderous, tyrannical, dictatorship?
Yes the one that was far tamer than e.g. your ally Saudi Arabia.
>So its okay for Middle Easterners to terrorize their own subjects as long as it doesn't hurt Europe.
Europe being hurt is a direct consequence of America's actions. So you have no place to complain about being complained about. Nobody believes your supposedly morally high motives anyway, considering you pick and choose your allies not according to democratic ideals but according to interests, resources and power politics.
>No
Yes. Without the US led invasion there would be no ISIS. Fact.
>Nazi Germany enacts one the most brutal genocides the modern world has ever seen
>Once the war is over America gives lots of money to west Germany
>Germany chimps out at being asked to spend 2% on their military
Germany isn't a very good ally
>>51750728
Everyone should be spending the the required 2%, as the richest country in Europe you should be setting an example and honouring your NATO obligations.
>>51757369
>The existing...murderous, tyrannical, dictatorship? Oh no?
>So its okay for Middle Easterners to terrorize their own subjects as long as it doesn't hurt Europe. Hmm ok.
At worst case, these were tens of thousands of victims in total.
The region 'free' from tyrants now produces hundreds of thousands and there is no end to this bloodshed in sight.
Saddam wasn't Adolf, his regime had no gorillions of victims.
>>51757780
kek'd hard
USA: 200 unbroken years of stable Republic.
Germany: 25 years of stable Republic, 40 years of broken hellhole Communist dictatorship (USA had to fix this), 4 years of occupied zones, 10 years of fascist dictatorship (USA had to fix this too), 10 years of not-so-stable Republic, 50 years of tyrannical Empire (USA had to help fix this), 100 years of fractured kingdoms, 200 years of fractured electorates.
Germany: "Let me tell you how to do politics".
>>51757505
What on earth are you talking about? This subthread started with this post: >>51755719
Just follow the backlinks.
>>51757744
What a qt
>>51757759
Isis is the Iraqi Baathist party rebranded.
>>51757146
Why do americans highlight certain words?
I can understand the reasoning behind it but it's so bizarre when literally nobody else does it, like some otherworldly gimmick.
>>51750396
To keep the kebabs out
>>51757780
>Germany isn't a very good ally
They still have one of the largest military budgets in Europe.
We may have fulfilled this 'lel, 2%!' obligation, but our poverty means that this goal translates into a very basic budget with very little room for R&D.
>>51757849
It's really a shame that you have learned nothing in 200 years.
>>51757369
>So its okay for Middle Easterners to terrorize their own subjects as long as it doesn't hurt Europe. Hmm ok.
I wouldn't go so far as calling it ok, but it's certainly none of Europe's business.
>>51757546
The question is a little more complex than "Americans are always right"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_Iraq_War
The large majority of experts see it as illegal.
>>51757988
>very little room for R&D
I don't think so. Poland has been improving their arms industry lately. Those new tanks that Poland has looks like good use of R&D
>>51757810
Try hundreds of thousands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein%27s_Iraq
He was a tyrannical horrible dictator. And I Am sorry, but Old World needs to take some responsibility. We took down the dictator, installed a Republic government, and gave them elections. All Iraqis needed to do was simply vote for politicians to represent them while respecting basic human rights.
If they cannot do that, then that is their own fault. USA does this every day. Tons of Americans come from all sorts of religious backgrounds, all sorts of ethnic backgrounds, all sorts of political backgrounds. And yet we manage to simply elect our leaders and not to form international ISIS-tier terrorist groups. I call it "self-control". Something Old Worlders need to learn.
>>51757759
>Yes the one that was far tamer than e.g. your ally Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia can be bad but no, not as murderous as Saddamn Hussein. Not by a long shot. Also, yes, I love how Europeans (and many Americans) also want us to fix Saudi Arabia too. Then if we knock down their King or whatever and give them a Republic, we will be blamed when they join terrorist groups too. Fuck off.
>Europe being hurt is a direct consequence of America's actions.
No. Its a DIRECT consequence of Old Worlder's actions. At best, its an indirect consequence of America's actions if you believe that Old Worlders are literal children who cannot stop themselves from becoming terrorists as soon as their dictatorships are removed. Fact.
>>51757880
And that post is a reply to the OP, which asks why Americans want Germans to FUND THEIR OWN MILITARY.
>>51758048
OK well then ISIS hurting Europe is none of USA's business. How about that. Fund your own damn militaries and deal with it yourselves.
>German militarism is a threat to world peace
>We must crush the militaristic German culture
>Germany must be occupied by American troops
>The United States must be the only country in the world that can lead wars
but then
>Fucking Germans why do you have such a shit military why do we have to protect yours ass REEEEEEEE
>Sorry, but war is bad
>REEEEEE spend more money and help us in our wars why are you such useless pacifists REEEEEEEEE
top keke, enjoy our awesome "support" of about 5 jets from the 70's that we can field at the same time
>>51758233
>OK well then ISIS hurting Europe is none of USA's business
Yes? I don't expect the US to prevent terror attacks on our soil. That's our job.
And if the US decided to let ISIS be, that would be fine by me.
>>51758286
This tbqh, all you burgers are fucking dumb if you think we'll give Germany the ability to field a compotent military. Same goes for the brits and frenchkeks itt. Imagine is outrage in our respective countries if we heard that Germany was building up its military. Plus, germans don't have anything to fight for anymore so their soldiers would fight without purpose.
>>51757849
>USA: 200 unbroken years of stable Republic.
American education, ladies and gentlemen.
>>51750396
Pull your own weight senpai
>>51758233
>And that post is a reply to the OP, which asks why Americans want Germans to FUND THEIR OWN MILITARY.
What?
>>51758286
>after WW1 America is the only country that doesn't support the harsh penalties put on it by other powers
>after being dragged into another world war and losing American lives America still doesn't support harsh penalties on Germany
>America uses money to help rebuild West Germany
>America puts thousands of troops in West Germany to fight the commies if need be.
>Ask Germany to spend 2% of their GDP on the military
>Germans get butthurt.
>>51758458
Americans would not give a shit. At all. We've been encouraging and helping JAPAN to develop their military and they fucking bombed us.
Yes, Germany is a former tyrannical dictatorship hellhole, but the same is true of 99% of nations that aren't the USA. Going through shit dictatorships/empires/monarchies is an Old World rite of passage.
>>51757988
Polish troops are very well respected by those that have worked with them, you may not have the most or best of anything but you pull your weight.
>>51758591
>Why do people, especially Americans, insist that Germany spend more and do more militarily?
From the OP.
>>51758497
Yes some retard Southerners tried to break off and form their own Republic. They were defeated in less than 5 years and the Republic stayed strong. Your point?
>>51758644
Teenager or armchair general detected, you're naive kiddo
>>51757883
Lol the Baath party was secularist and socialist. ISIS is islamist.
>>51758597
Reading this makes me sick. Europe is a moneysucking whiny greedy leech.
>>51750728
Germany is supposed to be spending 2% like every other NATO country is supposed to, we spend all our money on these other fagget countries
>>51758098
>I love how Europeans (and many Americans) also want us to fix Saudi Arabia too. Then if we knock down their King or whatever and give them a Republic...
You don't get it. We want exactly the opposite. Sadam was bloody dictators but he gave stability to a country that is today a failed state and a breeding ground for terrorism that is an actual thread to the West.
Nobody believes you that this war had the purpose to bring democracy to a bunch of brown people you give a shit about.
>>51758791
>tfw not in NATO
>get all the advantages without any obligations
>nobody can say anything about it because muh neutrality
At least Germany still contributes to NATO.
>>51758816
Yes, America enjoys dumping billions of dollars and sacrificing hundreds of lives for no reason at all. (All while gas prices continue to soar) That is a thing Americans love to do. You caught us. That Republic and those elections that we set up were just for the cameras, just as fake as the moon landings.
What we were really doing was setting up ISIS the whole time. We kidnapped a bunch of tiny Iraqi children and forced thuosands and thousands of Old Worlders into joining. Yep. That's the real story. How did a random German figure it out. We created ISIS because we love it when the Old World shits its own pants repeatedly.
America destroyed Germany after WW2. No amount of money or soldiers stationed on German soil can make up for the destruction of the german people through the mass rape by the soviets, death camps by the Americans, and simply the death of millions of german males. That being said, we did what needed to be done, but we should expect a country without anything to fight for to fight.
>>51759015
Look, just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
Non-interventionism is best.
>>51759027
If Germany doesn't want to fight anymore, then let them go to the dogs. I don't see why USA has to babysit them anymore. Grow up Germany.
>>51758098
>Saudi Arabia can be bad but no, not as murderous as Saddamn Hussein.
The Saudi regime carries out more beheadings than any terrorist organization. And that's your ally. The fact that you deal with them without any concerns for human rights and with the same breath try to justify the Iraq invasion on moral grounds is the pinnacle of American hypocrisy and probably the number one reason for the decline of America's international credibility.
And, no, nobody asked you to remove the Saudis. But everyone shows your double standards by poiting to them. Which reveals that the supposed moral reasons for invading Iraq were just a cheap excuse that no one, literally no one believes. Not even you yourself.
>Its a DIRECT consequence of Old Worlder's actions.
As some of them participated in the illegal invasion you're partly right. But the major share of the blame belongs with the US.
>>51750818
transform your lads into plastic bags, thanks god we are poor as fuck to keep ours safe
>>51750396
Amerishits just want more people to buy their overpriced surplus hardware. Don't worry about it, Hans.
Now how about you leave NATO, join an alliance with Russia, and make a proper army.
Hell, why not ask Russians for nukes too, they'd be more than happy.
>>51759098
How do you propose we "let them go to the dogs" then?
ITT people role playing as countries
>>51758597
>being dragged into another world war
Nobody did that except your own elected politicians. When Japan attacked you they had been embargoed by you for quite some time. It was your own decision to be involved. When Germany declared war on America you had long ceased to be neutral under international law because of your arms deliveries. It was your own decision to be involved. So don't act as if it was forced on you. Because it wasn't.
>>51757744
>Honestly, the only reason why the UK and France have the militaries they have is because theyre clinging to their pasts.
Reaching towards the future you mean
I see this kind of sentiment a lot. The logic runs something like this: you were very powerful in the past so stop aspiring to power in the future.
That's about as stupid as it gets.
>>51759129
>But the major share of the blame belongs with the US.
No, the blame falls entirely with the people who choose to join ISIS. Grow up and take responsibility for yourself.
lol okay. Saudi Arabia beheaded 345 people between 2007 and 2010. Average # of 86 people a year. 2015 has been the worst year ever for executions, with a whopping total of....151 people. OK.
Hussein killed 182,000 in his Al-Anfal 1988 campaign alone. Up to 230,000 in April 1991. 227,000 more deaths from 1991-1998, average of 28k a year. We are still digging up bodies to this day of people that he murdered. But he made the trains run on time, so lets keep this nice, "stable" dictator around. After all, without him then Old Worlders will be FORCED into joining ISIS.
Fuck off and take some responsibility.
>>51758707
That original American poster just rants. He doesn't explain anything.
>>51758707
>Your point?
That your history education is American, meaning substandard, leading to counterfactual claims, as you proved.
>>51759397
See this is what Americns are talking about. Nothing but contempt and ignorance by Germans
>>51759098
If there was a serious threat to Germany or the EU we'd spend more money but there really isn't.
>>51759490
America and their petrodollar games with the monkeys from the gulf bear ALL of the responsibility for unrest in the ME and literally every single "dictator" and their killing sprees.
Don't know what you're trying to argue about.
Saddam was "made in America".
>>51759277
When they get themselves caught up in WWIII or some new dictatorship, which they inevitably will as they have repeatedly through history, we just sit back and watch them burn themselves out. Forget rebuilding them with nice stuff like the Marshall plan. Just watch them fizzle and die. And when they demand that the USA help them with billions of our own dollars, have President Clinton/Trump say "Well we'd love to help you guys but we'd sure hate to create another ISIS. Sorry"
>>51759015
>for no reason at all.
The MICC obviously saw reasons. As did your oil industry. But it weren't moral reasons.
>>51759644
>When they get themselves cuaght up in WWIII
Against whom?
And lets not forget that the last two times, you were not on Germany's side, so I assume they'd welcome you 'letting them to the dogs'.
>>51759632
Saddamn Hussein was born and raised in Iraq. We removed him and gave the Iraqis free reign to elect their own leaders who represent them. They chose to shit their pants instead. This is not our fault. America has MUCH more diversity than the Middle East ever will (every religion, every nationality, etc) and yet we manage to elect leaders all the time without forming terrorist groups. Haven't had a single dictator or monarch since we started over 200 years ago. GO FIGURE ITS ALMOST LIKE AMERICANS KNOW WHAT THE FUCK WE ARE DOING.
But whatever, I need to go get myself a burger.
>Why does a military alliance ask a member country to invest more in it's military.
>Guise help me, this is so hard!
>>51759775
> we removed Saddam
No, you utter imbecile. You MADE Saddam.
>>51759691
Our oil industry did not benefit at all, gas prices were at an all time high. If we wanted oil we'd just drill in Alaska but we choose not to.
>>51759724
Yeah I am sure Germany would love being under Hitler, Stalin or Kaiser Wilhelm's control.
And who the fuck knows, likely against their fellow Old Worlders. Same as usual. Not our problem, afaic.
>>51759790
Are those the guys that tried to raid an ISIS prison guarded by 3 sheepherders and actually managed to get themselves killed in the process?
>>51759632
You are too stupid for words.
>>51759272
We've had bad experiences with a two front war. So, no thanks.
>>51759822
We removed him.
>On 13 December 2003, Saddam Hussein was captured by American forces at a farmhouse in ad-Dawr near Tikrit in a hole in Operation Red Dawn.
>On 30 June 2004, Saddam Hussein, held in custody by U.S. forces at the U.S. base "Camp Cropper", along with 11 other senior Ba'athist leaders, were handed over legally (though not physically) to the interim Iraqi government to stand trial for crimes against humanity and other offences.
You are welcome Iraq. Sorry you don't know how to handle democracy and freedom.
>>51758788
The only people pulling their own weight is Estonia, Poland, and the UK.
The rest of Europe can get raped by Russians again
>>51759856
>Yeah I am sure Germany would love being under Hitler, Stalin or Kaiser Wilhelm's control.
I assume it would be preferable to being bombed into the ground again.
>>51759613
If you had a point you'd have shown how I'm wrong. But you haven't. So you didn't.
>>51759822
Was the 1968 putsch done with US support?
>>51759915
Stop it, you dumb-fuck. You made Saddam. That's all that matters. Him and countless others "dictators" and "dictators-to-be".
Nobody gives a SINGLE fuck about fake war-profiteer wars and their "results".
All these mass-murder stats you posted? They're on you, tub of lard.
Please get shot ;)
>>51750396
Let them be buttmad. Every cent not spent on the military is a saved cent.
I also hope the Linke sues against the Tornado missions in Syria and wins. That would be the greatest thing in a long time.
>>51759490
>Hussein killed blah blah
None of this was the supposed reason for the Iraq war. The argument by American politicians was that he's got weapons of mass destruction. And the belief in the American public (for whatever reason) was that Saddam was behind 9/11.
>>51760114
We made Saddam, Hitler is German and Mozart is Austrian. God bless the Austrian education system.
Germans are cunts. We should've let the Russians have west Germany and continue their rape train
>>51760455
Well, you didnt. And now we honestly dont give a shit about what you want.
Sucks for you.
reparations
>>51760455
>We
>>51760406
If our education system is churning out people who absolutely despise the American foreign policy, I'd say it's pretty fucking good.
Should add more bits about Russians being best allies though. We really do have a pest here, called "pro-US politicians".
>>51759856
>Our oil industry did not benefit at all
"The value of Halliburton’s Iraq contracts has crossed the $10 billion threshold. Halliburton has now received $8.3 billion in Iraq work under its LOGCAP troop support contract and $2.5 billion under its no-bid Restore Iraqi Oil (RIO) contract, a total of $10.8 billion."
https://web.archive.org/web/20070426011102/http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20050916123931-74182.pdf
>>51760394
It's like people, in America as well as everywhere else, totally forgot that we'd assaulted Saddam's Iraq multiple times with the most recent before 2003 being in 1998 and it was over fucking WMD inspections then too. Why the fuck does everyone's memories start with 9/11?
>>51760530
We didn't because for some reason we liked Germans back then.
>>51760531
And the big bad wolf is... Denmark?
Or Austria?
>>51759870
One guy died from wounds.
They killed the "sheepherders", idk where you got your figures from, probably our of your serbian ass, and freed about 70 hostages.
>>51760650
You forgot to mention how many hostages died to drone strikes.
>>51760566
>we need more people that agree with my baseless, uneducated views on things way over my head
At least it makes your country predictable and susceptible to foreign control.
>>51760649
It's Liechtenstein.
They're just biding their time, waiting for a moment of weakness.
>>51760566
One of the things that our far rights and lefts have in common is their dislike for NATO and similar shit. I actually considered voting commie once for that reason.
Good that we now have the AfD which is also for allying with Russia.
>>51760531
Yes, Denmark and Austria.
>>51760743
Hahahahaah, get the fuck out of Europe already you fucked hillbillies.
Nobody likes you and with good reason.
I mean, you (an american) just tried to banter me about education.
Top Kek.
You earned this.
>>51760531
And who would be the wolves in that analogy?
>>51760716
Well, why don't you quote me some stats from SerbiaStrongkUSAisJewDevil.com?
>>51760768
Oh, you're diaspora shill, huh?
That explains it.
Move along folks. This faggot gets paid to post 8-9 hours a day.
>>51760783
I guess this is the Russian navy?
Why would Russia attack Germany?
>>51760923
That's what Americans want us to think.
That Russia is going to attack Europe.
Whilst funding civil wars ALL around Europe (even inside Europe) themselves.
It's pathetic.
>>51750396
Because we're picking up the slack for countries like you.
>>51760919
>Oh, you're diaspora shill, huh?
Actually not. You should have noticed that I post in good English instead of faux-bad English.
>>51760923
>This jackass is never gonna get i- wiat a minute. Fuck him.
You shouldn't spend anything on the military.
In fact, NATO is bad idea.
You guys should hold a referendum and leave.
You're too smart for NATO, NATO dumb, NATO caveman group, ooga booga.
>>51750396
Because you're cheeky cunts.
>>51760613
The US 'saved' Germany because they wanted another vassal state.
The Soviets offered to withdraw in 1952 and wanted to create a unified Germany as a neutral buffer state but the western allies rejected the offer.
>>51760594
Must be because it was a bogus reason, based on the bogus source named "curveball". Funnily, both British and German intelligence told US intelligence that curveball's claims are bogus. Yet, for some reason, the US pushed through with the invasion. For the US this was a war of choice, not a war of necessity. So stop trying to lure us into spending more on our military if it will only be used on your wars of choice or the mess your wars of choice leave behind.
>>51761045
>You guys should hold a referendum and leave.
That is what a lot of people say should happen. One of the reasons to vote left or right of the political spectrum that ruled Germany until now. And we all know how that referendum would turn out.
Also you didnt answer my question. Why, and how, would Russia stage a sea invasion of its largest economic partner and ally in europe?
>>51761119
We don't want vassal states. We want allied countries we can align with politically, Economically, and militarily.
>western allies
>Allies
Not just America then eh?
>>51761119
Just like they offered to give Poland free democratic elections?
>>51760865
I'm honestly confused. How did the US make Saddam? Did they help him get into power?
>>51761178
I dont know nothing, Im just stupid westerner, you have all the answers.
NATO is beneath Germany.
>>51761045
What the US fears most is the creation of an EU army that isn't tied to the existing NATO command structure.
![Dutch_Minister_of_Defense_Jeanine_Hennis-Plasschaert_meets_with_Secretary_of_Defense_Chuck_Hagel_at_the_Pentagon_in_Arlington_Va._May_22_2013_130522-M-EV637-084[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Cy5RRD8.jpg "Dutch_Minister_of_Defense_Jeanine_Hennis-Plasschaert_meets_with_Secretary_of_Defense_Chuck_Hagel_at_the_Pentagon_in_Arlington_Va._May_22_2013_130522-M-EV637-084[1].jpg")
>>51759919
>Poland
You know Poland is operating on serious money injections from the EU and foreign investors right? That Poland by itself would be a 2nd world country or worse and the only shit they would be pulling is vodka?
Noone in the EU is actually capable of doing military shit. Thats the whole strategy here. Go crazy with austerity measures on the military, act suprised when the military turns out to be incapable of doing anything at all, act like there is nothing that could be done to prevent this from happening then spark the brilliant idea of combining all forces to a great EU military structure as a solution. Thats one of the EU goals. Nobody is even trying to keep it a secret.
For example, my country literally has 3 operational F-16s from 1979 in the country. The news mentioned it last week. It's not even an issue. We have three 36 year old jets guarding our airspace.
How could we let this happen you say? Well thats easy. Literally make a secretary the defence minister. You know, one of those ladies that manage an archive and bring coffee to some dude at a desk. You make one of those minister of defence and since she is completely oblivious to anything relevant on that position you can get her to do anything. Like stripping the the military untill it does not function anymore at all. She won't know let alone care.
>pic related
its our defence minister
>>51761119
Which worked for the Czech Republic.
>>51761289
I know this isn't the right thread for this question but I gotta ask. What does "Turkish German" sound like? Is it like ebonics?
>>51761341
America not serious, America stupid.
Germany smart.
>>51761309
>Noone in the EU is actually capable of doing military shit.
Speak for yourself, Laars. Appreciated.
>>51761309
>my country literally has 3 operational F-16s from 1979
Are those three part of your air force or the entirety of your air force?
>>51761391
> a ramp
>>51761377
Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kmEM2u1dZA
>>51761377
Like Latino-American: heavy accent and couple of loanwords.
>>51761421
Yes
It just works
>>51761391
A FUCKING RAMP
>>51761461
>Carrier has to use SVTOL aircraft and A FUCKING RAMP to operate
>>51761391
>2 control towers
>A ramp
British "navy" everyone.
>>51761439
Wow. That sounded very...un German.
>>51761457
The mexican accent is the worst.
>>51750396
Because they know what you're capable of with a proper military. They need it atm
>>51761404
There should be a total of 68 f-16s. There are 3 operational in the country, 4 are doing NAVO shit in Poland, 10 are training jets stationed in the USA and 4 are being used over Iraq doing some sort of coalition shit for fuck knows what. 47 jets are not operational.
>>51761564
>>51761551
>>51761508
Plz no bully Brits
>>51750396
So we can stop being world police
>>51751787
>Not per capita
I think it's really sad. Germany is a successor of the Prussian state and its military traditions. All of that has been abandoned and now Germans look at their own fellow Germans in a military uniform with disdain.
Denazification was a horrible mistake.
>>51761690
>So we can stop being world police
Do you really not understand that the if you stopped playing world police you'd lose your empire?
>>51761741
>Per capita
>Relevant to measure military power
The Vatican couldn't beat Italy if they had 100 % military spending and Italy 0.1 % of GDP.
We tried the military route once and it didn't work
Now we emulate the Jews, which works much better.
No wounder we lost WW2
>>51761764
We don't have an empire. We don't want one anyway. Most Americans don't want to be an empire or world police.
