>Immigrants are used to keep the wages low !
When will this meme end ? i've never seen a single study to back it up
>t. Ahmed
>>51727844
>t. O'Hannity
Well duh the average wage goes down due to immigrants accepting lower wages, their wages bring down the average. But the wages of people that aren't immigrants being affected is what people are concerned about. I don't think legal immigrants that work at least minimum wage and stuff have much of an affect because their wages go back into the economy when they spend their money, so jobs are eventually created because you obviously cannot provide more good and services to a growing population with a workforce that stays the same size.
>>51727907
Ship the micks backs already.
I don't think immigrants are used to keep wages low. The agricultural industry lobbies against sending back illegals and stuff since they have a hard time finding natives who are looking for that kind of work, and other industries are lobbying for more lax legal immigration/more H1B visas because bigger pool of potential candidates = they can choose more skilled employees. Plus they think diversity will help them appeal to more demographics in a more globalized economy and stuff. The government likes immigration because more people = higher total GDP = more power.
>>51727949
Immigrants also increase spending.
>>51727809
I assume youre the same frog i just BTFOed in the last thread, so ill just continue.
Ill explain this as easy as i can. Imaging you sell apples at the market. The price for apples is 1€per kilogramm or whatever and you sell 100kg of apples per day, doesnt matter. Now I and 15 other people also start selling apples next to you. The demand for apples doesnt change at all, theres still the same ammount of people buying apples.
Do you think you could still sell 100kg of apples for 1€ per apple? I dont think so.
So whats going to happen next is that someone is going to lower his price. If you have the chance to buy apples for 1€ or 70ct (given theres no diffrence in quality or whatsoever), theres no question what most people are gonna do. You still want to sell apples, so you have to lower your price as well (if were talking about job market where youre not selling apples but your own labour, youre accepting a lower wage)
This is what immigration does to the job market, at least for unskilled labour.
Oh and btw it is proven. I recently saw a study from turkey where wages for jobs like waiters have gone to hell due to all those syrians flooding their country.
Oh and stuff like minimum wages just doesnt work. Youll get a surplus in supply (aka unemployment) which means you have alot of people on welfare which is even worse.
>>51727949
most jobs unskilled immigrants do are at minimum wage anyway it's not like they could they them less
>>51728114
where are the proofs
i just want some facts that prove me that immigrants accept lower paid jobs than natives to prove your point
it doesn't exist though, why ?
>>51728114
That apple example is too simplistic. Macroeconomics is much more complex than a simple firm, competitor, and consumer example.
The question with immigrants is that they become consumers and they also increase demand for goods.Immigrants join the labor market, but they also join the consumer market.
>>51728121
>>51728166
Travail au noir ça te dit quelque chose ?
>>51728166
Immigrants do accept lower skilled jobs. They don't speak the language as well, they don't have the same culture, clothes, and experience as natives. This is not the question. The question is whether immigrants are a net benefit or a net detriment.
It's unquestionable that immigrants are less desirable workers than average citizens. The only bargaining tool they have is lower wages.
>>51728114
You're a fucking idiot.The answer to all of this is improving sophistication of the economy, improving tools, taking the god damn supply and processing it. Basically your complaint is there are too many apple suppliers. So what's next? Create people's national ministry of apples and make you minister and sole supplier of apples. Tax and tarriff the rest? Normal people would say:all those apples would make a good juice, yoghurt wtf else. So we need tools, education,infrastructure, healthcare to make it all work.BTW do you know where there are no immigrants and oversupply of foreign workforce? In North Korea.
>>51728094
>they have a hard time finding natives who are looking for that kind of wor
that's precisely because the wages are low
>>51728190
Youre right of course, i tried to make it as easy as possible since he obviously has no background in economics.
>>51728166
https://www.economics.utoronto.ca/jfloyd/modules/sadl.html
first thing i could find after googling for 5 seconds. Theres probably hell of a lot more but im too lazy to do all that research just to make my point.
>>51728261
Am I beeing baited?
>>51728121
They do though, by paying them under the table. Or they hire welfare mothers or meet the diversity quota and get giant tax breaks.
I would have liked France if:
1- Islam became illegal
2- Borders protected but not as a joke
3- Stopped JesuisCharlie and turned it into a "Come here faggot ISIS come fuck with me"
4- English education taken seriously
5- Stopped tryharding at making fun of the US
6- Got out of the EU
Then it can finally be decent enough to be liked
>>51728373
>4- English education taken seriously
This will never happen, they're still holding onto a dream of a world that will never exist where French is the dominant language.
>>51728261
His example was flawed, but there is a valid point. Society has a labor market (workers and firms) and a goods market (consumers and producers).
Labor provides goods and gives people money. People purchase goods and give money to the labor market.
When people join the country they join the labor market and the goods market. The question is whether the increased demand they cause in goods is equivalent to an increased demand in labor.
If it's not, then immigrants are harmful. This is basically diminishing marginal utility. The optimal amount of people in a kitchen is X. If more people come to the kitchen, more people will want pizza, but the usefulness of the people there also declines.
>>51728326
You're being exposed in terminal stage of retardation.
>>51727809
> He doesn't believe that dumping a huge number of additional people in a country depresses wages through increased competition.
>>51728405
No, fuck French, fuck it, what do you want? Pride or having a fucking chance to compete?
EVEN FUCKING CHINA TAKES IT MORE SERIOUSLY
>>51728373
>5- Stopped tryharding at making fun of the US
Wut ?
>>51728411
Please stop trolling. I legitimately struggled to understand that collection of words you call writing.
>>51728373
t.boutaflika
>>51728443
Dude, every single time I'm here or even on /a/ in the rare french threads you will fail at having a normal conversation because all there is in the entire thread is >lol america sux we r so much mor advanced
>>51728469
>boutaflika
I have never laughed this hard this entire week, thank you anon
>>51728433
Those huge amount of people will also be buying food, buying cellphones, paying the mechanic to repair their car, buying flowers on valentines day, etc.
There are more workers, but there are also more customers.
It's not so clearcut anon.
>>51728406
Country is not a kitchen. If it wasn't local immigrants, they'd simply ship jobs overseas
>>51728288
No, even when illegals are deported they still have trouble finding workers.
>InGeorgia, 56% of farmers say they are having trouble finding farmworkers. The Georgia Agribusiness Council says that migrant labor shortages could cost state farmers between $300 million to $1 billion.
http://business.time.com/2012/06/14/the-fiscal-fallout-of-state-immigration-laws/
>>51728411
Oh shit alright. Ill just take the time and explain to you why youre a retard.
Public companies like your people´s ministry are horribly inefficient. Prove? East germany, north korea, the soviet union. Flat tax on apples? Congrats you just increased the supply surplus even more since apples are now more expensive and fewer people buy them.
Processing apples? Yeah, people do that. Companies that make apple juice take part in the market just like consumers do.
If you "make all work" you will end up with a situation like east germany in the mid 80s. You have full employment a productivity thats total shit since you literally hired 5 people to do the job one could do. Planned economy simply does not work. Thats a fact. Everyone who ever did research about that can tell you.
>>51728466
Get lost retard.
>>51728517
Jobs that can be shipped overseas already have been shipped overseas. Kitchen, garage, whatever. The example is about the marginal utility of labor vs. increased demand for goods.
>>51728094
>The agricultural industry lobbies against sending back illegals and stuff since they have a hard time finding natives who are looking for that kind of work
You have to look at how that happened though. The US used to have the majority of it's fruits and veggies picked by whites. There was even a fruitpickers union. However starting in the 1920s businesses realized that they could use illegals to union bust. They started firing all white and black workers and replaced them with illegals. Same thing happened with construction and customer service. My dad dug foundations for houses as a teenager, as did all his friends. 30 years latter, when my mom was working as a secretary for a construction firm, she was told to throw all resumes that belonged to anyone who wasn't an illegal in the trash.
If white people are just lazy and don't want to take jobs and it's too expensive to hire them, please explain to me why I can go to Australia RIGHT NOW and get paid $14-15 and hour to do agricultural work and be surrounded by white people.
> and other industries are lobbying for more lax legal immigration/more H1B visas because bigger pool of potential candidates = they can choose more skilled employees
There are skilled people in the US. However immigrants will take the same position for less. It's all about money, the "skills" argument is a ruse to justify it.
>>51728556
The wages are simply not high enough to attract american workers. The problem is that american wages and american farm hands would lead to more expensive fruit.
>>51727809
> No minimum wage
> Too stupid to join a union
Immigrants have basically created an alternative market where everything earn a lot less than white people.
>>51728433
Workers in Mexico receive lower wages than illegals in America. Goods produced in Mexico and America are often sold in the same markets, especially because of NAFTA and stuff. So farm workers in the US and in Mexico are already in competition in the labor market, when Mexicans come here for higher wages they are depriving the more competitive Mexican industries of labor they would use to produce goods more cheaply than American companies.
>>51728556
That's because most American workers aren't willing to put up with the combination of low pay and hard labor that illegals are willing to. Large farms can get fucked, they've been getting away with exploitative practices since the Bracero program.
>>51728573
You are complaing about relaxedness of the job market, you fool. I'm saying let the marketplace decide and incentify/invest in stuff that will noninvasively improve the situation.
>>51727809
I dunno about wages, but the American Dream is a lie we tell foreigners so we have people to drive our taxis and sell us $2 hotdogs
>>51728633
Minimum wage is horrible. And unions are basically rackateers.
>>51728501
But 1) there's more to the economy then flower shops and mechanics and 2) these people come from a lower standard of living. Mexicans will live 10 to a 2 bedroom apartment and not care. Indians will ride a bike to work and not care. They are contributing to the economy in the same way native born people do.
>If white people are just lazy and don't want to take jobs and it's too expensive to hire them, please explain to me why I can go to Australia RIGHT NOW and get paid $14-15 and hour to do agricultural work and be surrounded by white people.
White Americans =/= white Australians. It's just a fact that Americans don't really apply for jobs in agriculture even after illegals are deported. Doesn't mean white people are lazy, it just means they have better jobs and don't resort to that yet.
>>51728667
No it's not. We have some of the lowest taxes and lowest regulations in the world. Minimum wage workers can lead decent lives. The only time it sucks to be on minimum wage is if you live in a city or if you have kids.
But that's besides the point. Minimum wage is not supposed to be a career. It's a job for teenagers and old retired folks. Working people should use it to save money and eventually go to trade school, community college, or university.
>>51728601
>The US used to have the majority of it's fruits and veggies picked by whites. There was even a fruitpickers union
In fact seasonal Mexican labor was being used since the late 19th century.
>>51728737
Do farms broadcast the open jobs? Do farms offer wages commensurate with the difficulty of the job?
I'd rather earn $7/hr in an office punching staples than I would $12/hr breaking my back on a farm.
>>51728664
If you read the article, they had that problem AFTER they enacted stricter laws on deporting illegals so many of them left to other states, and natives didn't apply for those jobs after the illegals left.
>>51728666
Yeah but you dont really improve the situation.
If you bought all the apples from the apple market with your terribly inefficient public apple juice company, you get a surplus in apple supply and tax payer funded apple juice noone wants since its either too expensive/poor quality compared to your private competitors ind the apple juice market.
You could save yourself alot of trouble ( and alot of tax payer money) if you just dont intervene at all and let the apple market do its thing. Yeah, that also means some people will have to stop selling apples. Whats wrong with that?
>>51728737
> It's just a fact that Americans don't really apply for jobs in agriculture even after illegals are deported
Because companies still refuse to pay even min. wage and because for the past 60 years if you were white you would never, ever get that job so why would a white teenager even bother? That doesn't mean we need illegals, it means our system was fucked for a long time and it's going to take time to make it healthy again.
>>51728775
Then farms have to raise the wages until people start applying. That's how every business works.
Workers try to find the highest paying job. Firms try to find the cheapest worker. Eventually a compromise is made.
>>51727809
Let the roaches in regardless of the economic impact. It will simply hasten the conclusion of our species. We either rise to the stars and become space hermits or become bronze age Islamic monkeys and go extinct.
>>51728373
Why would you want it if Islam became illegal?
>>51728772
Which was limited to the states bordering Mexico directly and still had the same problems as we see today.
>>51728835
Did you live in a cave for the last 15 years?
>>51728828
We won't go extinct under islam, we will only go miserable.
>ask for proof
>do not get proof
idgaf about your rants lads
>>51728860
He's Moroccan though. I'm wondering what reason he has in particular, considering most of his family members would be banned from the country,.
>>51728835
It's a fucking plague, you could win a war against a country just by flooding it with muslims and their faggotry
>>51728094
They use illegals to put independent American farmers out of business. Lots of Americans want to work in agriculture but not as slaves for corporate fucks. Most Americans used to BE farmers before the corporate monopoly took over.
>>51728800
I don't think it means we need more illegals either, but I think it shows that the people complaining that immigrants are taking our jobs, don't actually apply for those jobs when the immigrants are gone and actually oppose immigration for other reasons.
>>51728775
Yeah, because you can't attract workers to do hard manual labor unless you're willing to pay them sufficiently for it. Like I already said, illegals will take the shit pay and bad conditions that the ag industry prefers, but most Americans born and raised here won't. Getting rid of illegals helps level the playing field between employer and employee, it's good for our workers. Businesses that want to rely on exploiting third worlders at our expense can fuck off and die or get with the program.
>>51728871
Youre a blind retard you know that?
>>51728862
Our time is growing very short. We either get the important work done in this generation or it is certain death for humanity.
>>51728895
But aren't most of your family muslim? Do you really view them and your fellow Moroccans as being that awful?
I wish my country would ban islam too, but its never going to happen. Our pathetic secular tolerance is no competition against die hard muslim faith. The only reason we don't oppose it is because our societies have lost their identities and can't say no because all ideas are equal :^)
>>51728917
Are you daft? People are willing to do the work, you just have to pay them better for it. That's the entire basis of the opposition to illegal immigration. It allows businesses to get away with ignoring Americans and underpaying foreigners who are more willing to be exploited. Cutting the illegals out of the picture leaves farms with no choice but to offer a better deal to potential employees or let their crops rot in the field.
>>51728923
But the illegals were removed from the equation here. Natives just didn't apply for these jobs in large numbers even after the illegals were not competing and lowering the wages.
>>51728988
They still weren't offering a good enough deal, you absolute blithering fucking retard.
>>51728945
So what, we colonize space? What difference does that make if muslims come along?
They'll blow up your spaceships the same way they blow up your aeroplanes
. The people that are going to suffer in the coming decades is not going to be the west, but those in Africa and The Developing world that will wage more wars as resources grow fewer. We're not dying out, that's just alarmism.
>>51728988
That's because the wages weren't increased enough. This has been said several times anon.
There are people who chop down trees, work on skyscrapers, work in coal mines,etc. Increase the wages and people will do anything.
>>51729007
But why? The illegals were gone so if the illegals were causing it, they would have been offering an acceptable deal to natives according to your narrative. Maybe it's because agricultural companies would rather leave America than pay what white Americans would accept. Hell, our agriculture industry would probably be a fraction of its current size if not for all the subsidies we already give them to stay.
>>51729035
But America is not the only place you can farm. If people demand they raise wages too much, they'll just leave the US and go to where wages are lower.
>>51729112
And thats bad because ....?
>>51729071
They didn't increase wages because they knew they could smuggle immigrants back in??
>agricultural companies would leave america
and then other americans would buy land and start farm.
Where would those companies go to? Would they buy land in Europe and start farming there?
>>51729123
I don't think it's bad, I'm just explaining why he's wrong that deporting illegals = white people start doing menial jobs on farms again.
>>51728917
the entire reason illegal immigrants are economical to hire is because you don't have to follow regulations in regards to safety and pay
the entire point is to get the businesses to actually follow the fucking law
>>51728891
>I'm wondering what reason he has in particular
Nigga you think any freaking sane person could handle islam? You have to be mentally retarded or scared to death to go by it and force a fake truth down your throat till you gag OMG muhammad made interstellar travel to heaven on a flying donkey, the masses swallowing this horseshit as factual makes you think about what the fuck did this species devolved into when you're the only in the fucking city besides foreigner not believing a loli fucker was sent by god almighty to deliver his message of believe me and give me your 9yo daughter aisha because I had a wet dream about her and therefor must be a true message from god, you think I'd swallow this bullshit and live with it? Do you fucking have any slight idea on how it feels to literally be forced to act as dumb as a freaking burger just to not be slaughtered and disowned? Do you not imagine it might break someone's mind to force your brain to shut down the prefrontal cortex and not eat or drink during ramadan till night because an asshole retard told a bunch of asshole retards to do so? It's to make you feel what a homeless poor person feels like so you can empathize, YEAH right because poor homeless people who aren't trying to lose their construction job don't know it already, go fuck yourself shithammed and your backwards fairy tale im killing myself
>>51729030
>muslims come along
Negative. I would rather rogue AI destroy every man woman and child. I would rather the earth were burned to ashes with fourth generation fusion bombs. Space is for whatever superior thing follows man but earth is his grave.
>>51729148
If a menial job pays enough people will do it. He is 100% right. If farmers go overseas they'll have to deal with shipping costs and possible taxes.
Farming companies are not special. It's easy to enter the market and replace them.
>>51729145
>>51729071 (You)
>They didn't increase wages because they knew they could smuggle immigrants back in??
PROOFS
>and then other americans would buy land and start farm. Where would those companies go to? Would they buy land in Europe and start farming there?
No, because wages are high in Europe and their agriculture largely depends on subsidies too. Developing countries like Mexico would pick up on the demand most likely. Americans would not just buy hand and start farming when it's cheaper to import food than produce it domestically.
>>51729211
Is it really cheaper to import? How much food does Mexico produce? Enough for itself and America?
The proof is in exactly what happened. Immigrants left, farmers didn't raise wages, and now they're back.
>>51729193
Shipping costs haven't stopped us from sending so many jobs all the way to fucking China, and we already import food from all over. It wouldn't be the biggest obstacle. You have to treat agriculture like every other industry. We already lost a lot of manufacturing jobs to other countries because Americans weren't willing to work at low enough wages to compete with workers in third world countries.
>>51729148
>I don't think it's bad, I'm just explaining why he's wrong that deporting illegals = white people start doing menial jobs on farms again.
The labor is easier when you own the farm but that wont happen while the corporate farms have Mexican slaves.
>>51729148
They will do the work, you just have to give them enough money to make it worth the effort. Laborers can't twist capital's arm properly if there are a bunch of illegal scabs lining up to do the work for less than it's worth to the country's native workforce. Your love of illegals amounts to nothing more than a love of sucking the dicks of the same class that consistently used violence to try and break unions during the Gilded Age so they could keep child laborers and factory conditions so dangerous that people were dying in their 30s and losing limbs in machinery with no safety features.
>>51729267
Shipping iphones and technology is easier than shipping fucking food. What is weight? What is size? What is the profit per good?
Common anon.
>>51729275
Again, I'm not defending illegals. I'm just bringing up the basic economic point that America is not a closed system, we cannot force companies to raise wages beyond a certain level because above a certain level, it just becomes cheaper for those companies to relocate to countries where its cheaper to produce.
>>51729343
Then you penalize them heavily for doing so. I'm not just against illegals, I'm also against free trade agreements because they give capital too much power.
>>51729173
Stay strong brother. It is always darkest before dawn but the light of day comes swiftly.
>>51729343
Kicking out illegals is not a price control. We would not be forcing companies to do anything.
America has large amounts of farm lands. If they want to sell crops they'll need to offer wages that attract workers.
All of your examples have been pretty shitty. The outsiurcing of technology (much easier to ship, each unit is more profitable than food, etc.) is horrible comparison. 200lbs of iphones is more profitable than 200lbs of banana.
There is also the fact that American farmland is stuck to America.
>>51729343
If you get rid of their slaves then independent farmers can buy up the land and put it to use.
>>51729301
If shipping was prohibitively expensive, we wouldn't have so many foods available year round in our grocery stores because a lot of crops grow better in climates outside of America, and other parts of the world can grow crops when we can't because their seasons are reversed. Shipping definitely adds to the cost, but it's not very much when the cost is divided among the thousands of bananas you're sending over at a time or whatever..
>>51729443
I didn't say shipping was prohibitively expensive. I said it's simply not feasible to assume that all (or even a majority) of the farming is going to go overseas and be shipped to us.
There's the question of buying farmland and working with foreign governments. Then they'll have to deal with competitors in America who buy the farmland.
Your examples have all been shit mate.
>>51729418
If wages rose in developing countries then we could do that. They actually are in most developing countries actually. But until we've reached the point where wages are high enough everywhere that people can competitively farm with decent wages and without depending on subsidies, it will be more profitable for Americans to ignore farming and specialize in something else. I don't get why you think this is a bad thing. Let's say all the illegals are gone and the agricultural industry left the US. Most Americans would be fine in the long run because they invested in skills unrelated to agriculture. So by specializing in other fields we become more efficient at that, and food is cheaper because it is being imported from places where it's cheaper to produce. Hell, that would probably be a good thing, to stop farming for a few decades, because it would give our aquifers time to replenish and we depend on those for agriculture.
>>51729518
The majority of farming will not go overseas because the major corporations have huge lobbying power and use it to get tons of subsidies. I think most of those subsidies are a good thing because we've seen in the past that when farming is left to a totally free market, short term fluctuations in the market can wreak long term havoc and people need to eat so that's not good. But when, for example, cows in the EU receive more in subsidies every day than what some Africans live off of every day, I think that shows how dependent we are on these subsidies to prevent agriculture from moving to where wages are cheaper. I know America is not the EU, but they're both very similar with the levels of protectionism and thats just a statistic I knee off of the top of my head.
>>51728678
How on earth is a union even close to a rackateers? May as well claim that lawyers are rackateers for speaking on someone else behalf in court.
>>51729874
Its basicly a cartel for labour supply. It causes inefficiency, unemployment and a drop in productivity. I think thats what he meant
>>51728976
Maybe he sees the bigger picture, everything isn't about your little family and your little friends : the whole world would be happier without muslims, and he probably knows it well as he's a privileged witness of this shitfest.
I live in Las Vegas. You can be a new guy dishwasher who doesn't even know one end of a fork from another and start out at just under $14 an hour. Once you are settled in and considered permanent (usually 3-6 months) you go to about $18 an hour.
This in a town that has one of the cheapest costs of living in the US.
>>51728791
This guy
This fucking guy
I think that is not 100% inmigration fault but companies using then as an excuse to pay shitty salaries and make more profit out of greedyness and since people needs jobs for eat they have to accept shitty pay with a smile on their faces, something tells me that this is not the root of the problem and I can't express my toughs on english better,;-;
>>51727809
>i've never seen a single study to back it up
That is because using Google is too complicated for you.
This morocco guy remembers me a friend of mine, Mohamed, he hates his name, is atheist, is one of the nicest persons i ve ever met, plays all sort of games and knows everything about animes and tv series and shit, yet is the most non-neet i ever met - work and study a lot, moved from his parents soon and now is a kick ass lawyer. Sometimes i ask myself what does this means...
>>51729633
Abolish free trade. Simple as fuck.
>>51730000
Which is why every rich country has been built on strong unions while poor countries have unions violently smashed.
>>51731074
>Abolish free trade.
>Simple as fuck.
>>51727809
American states with little immigration experience wage growth as they near full employment.
This doesn't happen when states have a high level of inward migration as increased supplies of labour stop this from happening.
>>51728976
>secular tolerance
We can start by Western countries taking a strong Christian/Catholic identity again, and it can directly oppose Islam.
There's a start.
Scheiss auf Allah!
>>51731157
>free trade
>>51733910
sauce pls
>>51731345
>Christian/Catholic
The fact that you separated these two concepts is proof that the idea needs some revision before re-introduction into the modern mainstream.
>>51727809
https://archive.is/ywTHM
Fuck off retard
