How did the scandinavian countries reached their renowed welfare state?
Norway: oil money
Sweden: weapon money
Finland: soviet money
No idea on danish or iceland. Danish might be beastility porn.
>>972015
>Finland
>scandinavian
No you slant eyed mongol
>>972015
Denmark is basically: Oil money, but not as much money as Norway
>>972007
Imagine running a country that's so isolated you have to try to come up with new ways to spend the state budget
>>972007
People in Scandinavian countries have good work ethics
>>972015
> Finland
> Soviet money
> Sweden gets Marshall aid
> Finland do not
Can't make this shit up
>>972032
Some good decisions were made fortunately.
>>972007
>high level of atheists
>laws in favor of the people and not corporations
>people are were vocal when they are being treated unfairly or when someone else is
>strict laws that prohibits weapons in public
>loose laws for minor offenses
>police are held highly accountable
>some of the lowest corruption levels in the world
>laws are made based around laws that worked in neighboring countries
There's so many factors but the one I find most interesting is how their labour market operates since it's the polar opposite of the "lol socialism" a lot of people think of when they hear about Scandinavia.
They lack any kind of proper minimum wage, instead relying on people being employed to join unions who speak for them in the same manner you vote for a political party, and employers to join employer organisations.
I think that's the case in Sweden, Denmark and Norway, and in Finland their government basically passes whatever the labour market decides as a law a few years at a time. And Sweden's Employment Protection Act (Lagen om anställningsskydd) can be summed up as "these are the rules of engagement but you can negotiate away 99% of em if you feel for it".
Of course, this is a fairly delicate model since it relies on the people to actual join unions. It also means that people who aren't brought up with this knowledge is easily exploited labour, something that's partially seen among EU citizens moving to Sweden and immigrants from war and famine.
> But what do this have to do with the welfare state
No government interfering in the labour market means that the people in each trade can decide upon the rules themselves, resulting in a certain kind of flexibility within the businesses. The same rules that an lawyer have to work by doesn't necessary work for a carpenter. This in turn means that business have an easier time to operate that in turn result in bigger tax revenues.
>>972007
>Finland
>Scandinavia
Choose one
>>972463
>implying Finland isn't rightful Swedish clay
>>972475
If you mistreat your pet, you don't get to keep it.
It's getting a bit shaky at the knees nowadays. Won't last forever.
>>972114
you are obviously american
For Sweden a factor was our powerful unity under the christian faith.
>>972015
>Finland: soviet money
they paid reparations to the Russians for dozens of years. The reason they prospered was because they had a free market system
>>972015
>Denmark: bacon, beer and lego money.
>>972015
>implying soviets gave anyone money
>>972568
kek what makes you think that?
>>972114
>They lack any kind of proper minimum wage, instead relying on people being employed to join unions who speak for them in the same manner you vote for a political party, and employers to join employer organisations.
But that's wrong. The unions and employer organizations have a big role, but the states DO still guarantee minimum wage and other benefits like parental leave. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
>>972714
So tell me, what's the minimum wage in Sweden.
>mfw the Nordic welfare state is collapsing
When will people learn?
>>972714
At least in Finland there's no law-madated minimum wage. Workers' and employers' unions negotiate the minimum wages for their industries. Recently the government pushed for legislation to lower the price of labor and it created a huge shitstorm for infringing the freedom of the labor market
>>972714
Sweden doesn't have a minimum wage. Finland doesn't have a minimum wage.
If you look at Europe, the UK didn't have one until the 1990s and Germany has just adopted one.
Having a minimum wage is not necessary, mate. It can actually be harmful to the people you are trying to help.
Iirc it was some polish jew commie holocaust survivor who created the swedish welfare state
Won't last long
>>972714
You're so full of shit. Anyone can look it up at any time so why even bother lying on the internet.
>>972775
He would have needed a time-machine for that.
>>972778
> Social Democracy have been the norm for almost 90 years
> A-any day now!
>>972802
Probably not, considering he established it when he was alive, in the 1960s.
>>972714
>average Sanders supporter
>>972805
>90
What the fuck are you smoking? I want some.
>>972750
no one would have implemented minimum wages if union membership was as widespread as it was before the 1990. The state only steps in because the formation of unions in new industries was actively and passively prevented in the past so there is no adequate representation for these sectors.
>>972568
>"labour"
>american
C'mon, step it up.
>>972805
The thing is that, differently from the british social democracy, the Nordic system has only now become unsustainable. The population of old people is rapidly increasing, while they have a decreasing number of young people to sustain them. Do you think Europe is only accepting migrants because of altruism? They need more people to sustain the monstrosity that has become their welfare systems. Of course, the problem now is that people get so many benefits that they feel discouraged to seek work.
They are going to need huge reforms if they don't want to end bankrupt.
>>972806
I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you're talking about establishing the Swedish welfare society. What happen in the 1960 that makes you say that Sweden didn't have a welfare society before that.
When people talk about the Swedish welfare society they typically talk about the establishment of the Folkhemmet, or "The People's Home", used by Per Albin Hanson 1928. Everything after that have (when the Social Democrats have been in power) just been modifications and modernisations of said idea to organize the society.
>>972825
>The population of old people is rapidly increasing, while they have a decreasing number of young people to sustain them.
While this is true, the older population is also getting healthier. Raising the retirement age have been proposed by several political parties. While I don't know what will happen in the future, the idea is that a higher retirement age will reduce the impact of an ageing population.
>>972825
> Of course, the problem now is that people get so many benefits that they feel discouraged to seek work.
I've never understood this line of reasoning. If you can't prove you're actively looking for work and can show evidence of that you've applied for job offers and the like if a civil servant ask you about it, you don't get unemployment benefits. You have to report what you've done every month. And said unemployment benefits aren't forever.
The very last benefits you can get in the long run are income support, and you may not get any if you own, say, a house or your car. You still have to look for work, and if you can't find any, the town you live in can force you into working for free. If you say no, they'll cut your income support.
I'm sure other countries have similar systems.
>>972007
Long periods of political stability, heavy investments in human capital and high levels of social trust.
>>972047
i can tell you that is not true
because we have such a high security net, alot of people are incredibly lazy especially students
You can always just live of the government money or get a job at a supermarket that can feed a family of four
>>972805
>the beast evolves to stop giving a fuck about the citizens
>i-it won't fall!
>>972884
>the population is also getting healthier
And that is a problem. Now way you can sustain such massive pensions. Not to mention how much support they need from the healthcare system. There are only three solutions: cutting costs, rasing taxes even higher or killing all the old people. I'd go with the first one.
>I've never understood this line of reasoning
There are always loopholes and people who manage to get away with lying. Unemplyment benefits, fixed income for migrants, not having to pay for lots of services, etc... are what have put the "crisis" in the current European issues. People from all over the world will keep coming as long as you are paying and supporting them.
>>972679
>>972704
Soviet union gave favorable deals to its friendly neighbors. Finland was trading products the soviets couldnt properly produce on their own soil and soviets gave oil at a favorable rate and other resources in return. Why are you assuming they gave anything when all my other points revolved around trade?
>>972819
anglo, american, whatever. Same ideological basis.
>>972707
I am lazy today, but basically the huge importance of a flexible labour market is a meme invented by americans to damage control their way out of the fact that without the petrodollar they would have defaulted decades ago. So the fact that anon tries to rationalize scandinavian success with labour flexibilty, ridicolously overestimeting its importance, just proves how much of a hack he is.
This thread again, we were all white with white ethics and morals, thats gone now and we are fucked. So much for that utopia
>>973154
I'm South American and I agree with him. Where is your ad hominem attack now?
>>973259
I explained my reasons. It does not matter where you are from, the point is that you believe in a meme
>>972007
sweden has been heavily involved in trade, industry and export since the empire days, and has enjoyed surplus spikes from time to time as a result
extensive union agreements and labor laws were hard-won in the early 1900s but most importantly we had 40 years of uninterrupted social democratic reform in the 1900's, where ground-breaking terms like Folkhemmet became ingrained into swedish culture and politics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkhemmet)
it's all now being undermined unfortunately [spoiler]and not because of mudslimes[/spoiler]
>>973154
> I am lazy today, but basically the huge importance of a flexible labour market is a meme invented by americans to damage control their way out of the fact that without the petrodollar they would have defaulted decades ago. So the fact that anon tries to rationalize scandinavian success with labour flexibilty, ridicolously overestimeting its importance, just proves how much of a hack he is.
The Saltsjöbad agreement literary came to be because both unions and employer organisations lost faith in the government being able to pass any law both parties would agree upon. Nothing have influenced Swedish labour law and labour market as much as said agreement (some would argue Sweden joining the US has, I would argue otherwise).
And even if you wouldn't agree with me on the Saltsjöbad agreement, Sweden's two most important labour laws, the co-determination act and the employment protection act, can still be summed up as "this is the rules of engagement unless you agree in a collective labour agreement to do otherwise".
And there's still the matter of fact that Sweden don't have any minimum wages outside of what's agreed upon in collective labour agreements.
>>973274
everything anyone believes is a meme
>>972805
90 years is just a flash in the pan
>>972805
>90 years
>he thinks this is long
>>972941
So then why haven't migrant populations filled the gap in labor and consumption?
And how is this solely a challenge to the economy of a country who handles elder care with taxation. Were their care to fall to their families, wouldn't it still be a huge drain on the economy of a country?
How is it a bad thing that social democracy relies on a strong economy? How is this not an affront to the standard of living of any society that doesn't practice ritual euthanasia?
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the culture over there in general.
Let me make it clear that I am an American and have never lived in a Nordic country, but I have pieced my interpretation together out of my research and after having spent a lot of time around Nordic folk, speaking with them and so on.
It seems to me (and to most of the Nordic people) that there is a culture existing there that has been around for centuries upon centuries that is highly sustainable. Some of the most enduring concepts in their society have to do with respecting and caring for the fellow man, embracing what every person has to offer, and embracing and protecting nature and making it part of the human complex. These doctrines are so ingrained into their society that they were never even named until Anglo people in the 1800's noticed them and shared the ideas with the rest of the world, forcing the natives to actually identify them. (Perhaps they were already named before, but it's difficult to say since the Old Norse ways were only recently being revived after a long period of being infected by the ways of their neighbors throughout Europe).
There have been Nordic kingdoms with welfare and health care systems in place possibly since the beginning of the Viking age. Not to mention that their population has pretty much always been meager, making it easy for everyone to give a shit about each other, to focus on each other, and to embrace everyone around them. Basically, its in their blood, in their soil, in their atmosphere, in their culture to make sure that everyone has a part to play and every part is worth something substantial.
I know this interpretation is a bit romantic, but it is certainly part of the reason that they operate the way they do. I find it unlikely that many other nations could achieve such
>>976814
None of the nordics have minimum wage.
>>977040
I wasn't speaking directly about their economic system. I clearly explained that I was talking about their culture as a whole, both ancient and modern. Also, Sweden has almost always been capitalist, and still is today. The Nordic countries have the freest markets in the world. It doesn't directly have anything to do with their ability to care about each other, apparently.
Did you even read my post? Are you just shitposting?
>>972736
Source?
That's right, you have none. Sweden is growing 4% YoY. Fuck off.
>>976814
>Sweden
>Economic liberalization
Yeah 55% of GDP in state spending sure is economic liberalization
>Denmark
>shifting away
Any sources? Gov spending as % of GDP is rising.
>Iceland
Leaving out 2008 it's stable. No one was stable in 2008 though
>>977040
No it was not "highly capitalist"
You're literally making up shit.
Sweden's public debt as a % of GDP fell for much of the time even though it's public spending to GDP % rose until 1996.
Sweden has always had low debt.
You're making up shit.
>>972915
He probably meant among people in the working world. You know, those who keep the whole thing afloat; professionals.
But even then that poster probably talks about production industry and not service industry, which we domestic consumers are much more familiar with.
>>972048
He probably means Finland had a good trading partner in the USSR, since most of other Yurop/Uesea had closed the prospect of Soviet trade off or something.
>>972475
Those are fighting words, saatanan hurri.
The high taxes makes it possible. But with the current political direction, the welfare is in danger of collapsing. Danish politicians are looking to the us and UK Even though their economy are way worse of. The politicians ære empowering the already powerful, by taking from those Who have little. So yes, Iris bund to collapse, cause that isn't the heart of liberal socialism.
>>972714
Denmark doesn't have a minimum wage.
>>977387
>Yeah 55% of GDP in state spending sure is economic liberalization
Why would a high state spending be opposite to economic liberalisation?
>>972727
There is none, However we have the existence minimum, It's the money the state gives you if you don't make your own and it should cover everything you need, Its in about 4000kr
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>>977707
>let's give people free money
Great way to encourage employment.
no devastating wars for centuries
rich in resources, low population
>norgay no need to explain
>sweden iron and copper
>denmark, fertile land, breadbasket of the north
>finland, forrests, their paper industry boomed in the 60-70s
>>978083
It's basically nothing, You can survive but thats it. Also you need to try to be independent, Searching jobs and what not. Still people abuse it and should receive nothing
>>977549
technically no and not by law, but in reality we practically kind of do. Most types of work already have a reasonable agreement in place between the employer and the employee.
>>972475
I don't think your muslim overlords will allow you to lay claim to anything, just take it up the ass by ahmeds and go preach sjw hurri.
>>978194
Exactly, so no minimum wage set by the government.
>>977570
Is this a legitimate question?
Classical liberals agree that empirical evidence has show that the state spending, outside public goods, is a very inefficient means of consumption.
Capital is allocated improperly because of lack of incentive, corruption abounds, and protectionism is further incentivized.
When your nation's government consistently spends more than half its GDP, even in boom times, there's a very high likelihood that the economy is not liberalized.
Matter of fact, Sweden has three major indicators of a non-liberalized economy.
1. Extremely high taxes relative to its neighbors (competitors).
2. Strong unions and unemployment guarantees that constrain the labor market.
3. A significant number of SOE's.
Sweden has a mixed economy with a large welfare state system.
>>978222
That doesn't mean there wouldn't be one if the labor market was liberalized.
It's very likely they would have a state-mandated minimum wage if they didn't have collective bargaining and rigid labor markets.
Once again, the existence or non-existence of one factor does not indicate the existence or non-existence of an larger system.
jantelaw tbqh
small populations relative to the size of their nations.
industrial trading partners are really not that far away.
