I see that western culture is jerking off on Sparta.
But looking at it realistically, Spartans were bunch of uptight barbarians, especially compare to Athens.
They were society of boyfuckers and cousinfuckers where small percentage of population brutally subjugated, enslaved and murdered majority.
What are their achievements of science, philosophy and art?
Even in warfare they werent something exceptional, getting btfo by Corinth.
But hey at least they defeated Athens in peloponnesian war, ensuring end of the golden age for most advanced civilization of the day, and even managed to fuck up hegemony at record speed.
Is there any redeeming quality that Sparta posssed besides muh brave 300 and why is it so glorified today
Spartans lived their philosophy, they didn't write anything because they didn't need to. Hence their "Laconic spirit".
If you understand that, you will get why virtually all of classical Greece from Plato, Thucydides,Xenophon, Aristotle to Plutarch admired them.
>>943124
>"After being invited to dine at a public table, the sophist Hecataeus was criticized for failing to utter a single word during the entire meal. Archidamidas answered in his defense, "He who knows how to speak, knows also when."
Sparta bringing the bants.
Still its shitty philosophy, so greatest spartan achievement were edgy one liners
>>943124
>I see that western culture is jerking off on Sparta.
source?
>>943142
>Aristotle
>Admiring Sparta
He literally put Carthage above them in terms of civility.
>>943205
Two or three movies that really piss off /his/.
>>943164
Succinctness, wit and honesty shouldn't be chalked up to "edgy one liners."
>i see that Western culture is jerking off on Sparta.
No it isn't.
>>943124
Come on the idea of a warrior society is pretty cool, even if it didn't really work because they had to keep an eye on the helots at all time.
>>943142
I fucking love Xenopon, but he was biased af, he was a spartaboo
Sparta a shit
Blame the retarded inaccurate "300" fantasy movie.
>>944399
Criticizing something for being inaccurate when it's not supposed to be accurate is autistic as fuck
It's based on a fucking comic for fuck sake
It is shit though
>>943233
>aristotle
>literal jew shiller
>teacher of Macedon
>who ended up trying to mix white greeks with shitskinned middle-easterns
>the diadochi realized that and had the race traitor killed
It all makes so much more sense now.
I love how popular culture portrays them as morally upright while in reality they were corrupt as fuck
>>944450
>not wanting Greek culture to erase shitty eastern nomadic trash
What are you retarded?
>>944562
>wanting pure decent good Greek culture to mix with that shit
Shigges Digges
Most of what is known about the spartans was written by ancient spartaboos so what do you expect?
>>944412
>>944399
And the comic is based on the idea of visualizing literally a camp fire story in which wolves have glowing eyes and whatnot.
People bringing up this inaccuracy argument are retarded on several levels, if one movie has a right to be historically inaccurate then it's 300.
>>943124
>I see that western culture is jerking off on Sparta.
You are arguing against a fictional boogeyman. Western mainstream culture has exactly the same beliefs you promote in this thread.
>Spartans were fascist, militaristic Barbarians who contributed nothing to the world unlike the more refined Athenians
Have an opinion? Fine, stick to it, but don't try to give yourself that controversial underdog bonus if you clearly don't deserve it.
>>944779
Frankly I'm not sure Zack Snyder got this point. The majority of viewers didn't either.
It would have been cool if in the framing story of the warm-up before Plataea (IIRC) the Spartans were shown wearing accurate attire with reduced screen filter.
>>943253
>shouldn't be chalked up to "edgy one liners."
That's all they are though. Pretty little ripostes.
What great monuments, architecture, feats of civil engineering and developments in medicine did it bring?
Witty one liners can be something we listen and smile upon hearing but at the end of the day that's all they are.
>>944811
>Frankly I'm not sure Zack Snyder got this point. The majority of viewers didn't either.
He outright explained the premise, because some people called him out on the racist Athenian boyfucker scene.
>>944797
care to share something we dont know?
>>943124
>But looking at it realistically, Spartans were bunch of uptight barbarians, especially compare to Athens.
Yeah look at it realistically: Almost every source is written from the Athenian perspective.
As soon as you take archeological findings into account the perspective changes a lot.
> Spartans were bunch of uptight barbarians, especially compare to Athens.
Athenians treated women worse than ISIS.
>>944850
many athenian philosophers loved sparta, crypteia, boyfucking and oppression of messanians etc. is not some myth made by butthurt athen, its historical fact
>>944779
desu I only get angry if some Burger moron tries to use the movie in an Arguement about historical Events
Otherwise it was pretty entertaining if you ignore the Cheesiness of it
say all you want, the Spartan queens were beautiful
>>944797
>how to write long post without any substance relevant to topic
>>944390
Also a persaboo, what with his Cyropaedia.
>>944907
Cyrusboo(both of them). He wasn't much fond of the Persians as seen in Anabasis.
>>944562
That's what the rich people in Brazil thought about a hundred years ago. Look at what they've done.
>>944866
t. woman
>>944896
>Otherwise it was pretty entertaining if you ignore the Cheesiness of it
Don't ignore it, embrace it. ;)
>>944866
You shouldn't base your opinion on historical societies off of how they treated women compared to modern standards, you won't get very far.
>>944905
The fact that western culture condemns the Spartan model nowadays is pretty relevant to the question of 'WHY DOES THE WEST IDEALIZE THESE FACIST BARBARIANS??! ;(('.
The question is based on a fallacy and a bad rethorical trick and that's the proper response to these bullshit threads.
>>945041
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconophilia#Contemporary_Laconophilia
>>944779
I think historical accuracy is a shit argument against films in general. unless it's express purpose is education then there are far more important artistic considerations.
300 is total garbage for a plethora of other reasons however and, in a weird way, the way in which the film alters history to make shitty political points is part of that.
>>944866
That's not a bad thing.
>>945083
Sociology is an agenda and not an exact science at least at times and that is exactly one of the reasons why I get tired of these politically motivated bullshit threads.
>>945100
>politically motivated
>thread on ancient sparta
Just stop with your smug smart talk, and post something relevant to thread.
>>943124
>They were society of boyfuckers
This meme was created by gays and pedo's in order to try to convince people today that their abnormalities were considered "normal" in the past, and it needs to die.
The relationship the faggots try to claim was sexual in nature, was NOT, and was simply a MENTOR relationship, little different than the coaching relationships that exist in sports, or academics, today.
Were some of these mentors faggots? Absolutely, just as some of the mentors that exist today are faggots. However, just like today, if a faggot preyed upon those they were supposed to be teaching, there were repercussions, and back then, they didn't care about a father killing a faggot that molested his kid.
If you actually studied Spartan culture, you'd realize that faggotry was seen as unmanly, and very un-Spartan like, and the Spartans actually mocked the Athenians for being faggots. All these ancient faggotry claims are little different than the "Egyptians were black!" claims made by niggers.
>>945129
Source?
>>945117
I correct you, a thread on how facist and horrible Sparta was. A thinly veiled argument against militarism and the idealization of indo European warrior cultures, because we are all multiculture loving pacifists and whatnot.
>>945129
Hi roastie.
>>944822
>What great monuments, architecture
That's all it is though. Petty, pretty buildings.
>>945143
I dont know what you think that you wrote.
But read again your own posts they literally dont touch any subject on Sparta.
Because extreme militarism is something positive that should be sought after.
>and the idealization of indo European warrior cultures
and at this part i start to doubt you have schizophrenia
>>943124
>They were society of boyfuckers and cousinfuckers where small percentage of population brutally subjugated, enslaved and murdered majority.
Sounds like the Afghans desu, and they're often admired for their warrior like spirit. I guess people like those kind of societies.
>>945179
>against a and b
I think you just suffer from dylexia and know shit about what schizophrenia actually means
>>945176
Nice source there, anon.
>>945205
You mean the "boyfucker" / "they were a bunch of faggots" source?
Agree.
>>945337
I mean, you're going against I've always been told centuries of studies said. As far as I'm concerned, without a source, you might as well be telling me you believe in Time Cube theory.
>>945399
How about you cite YOUR sources that claim the Spartan mentor relationship was sexual.
>>945446
>who were Harmodius and Aristogeiton
>>945617
A couple of dudes that died 500 years before there's any written record about them.
Nobody can verify anything about them, or their story, as it's all written long after the fact, and essentially heresey.
And they were supposedly ATHENIANS, not Spartans.
>>943124
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6Io27IdufQ
Video related, BBC documentary about the Spartans.
>>945705
>BBC documentary on Spartans includes little known "facts" about ancient Sparta
>highlights accomplishments of black Spartans
>showcases the importance of Spartan female warriors
>emphasizes homosexuality and how it was praised in Spartan culture
>discusses how the fall of Sparta can be directly attributed to the closed border policy of the evil patriarchy
>>945186
Some Pashtun tribes claim descent from Greeks who came with Alexander's army. Probably mostly fanciful.
And even if it were true, they wouldn't be descended from the Spartans, because they didn't come with Alexander.
>>945800
>Watch BBC Documentaries in the first place
Being "critical" of the spartans seems to be so hip and trendy right now.
Simply epic.
Spartans are pretty easy to understand, a culture that dedicated itself fully to a purpose.
>be spartan fucker
>see Athens' keikaku of hellenic dominion is about to come to fruition
>break up with your fuccboi and start sucking off Persia like the whore that you are
>Athens makes a god-tier wall so that svages can't take the city, while they raid cities with their navies
>raiding cities actually brings a plague in Athens, killing 1/4th of the population
>war goes to shit for them after the Sicilian expedition
>you make them tear down the wall and break the delian league
>instead of creating a similar league where everyone is your bitch you get destroyed by 300 faggots
>become irrelevant for the rest of eternity
What a bunch of useless edgy faggots
>implying Athenians weren't gay as Christmas
Please, read a fucking book
>>946104
>be edgy teenager
>get told some shit by some liberal arts college grad
>watch some other shit on TV by some other liberal arts college grad pushing a leftist agenda
>know nothing of ancient diplomacy
>know nothing of training, warfare, or logistics
>make edgy post on 4chan talking shit about ancient civilizations
What a naive little boy.
>>943124
I wonder who could be behind this post
>>945971
Well there were the Greek kingdoms in Baktria.
On another note; I've read that the men from Baotia were big guys due to cattle herding. Is this true?
>>946299
Mirin
>>945971
No, the myth is that the Kalash of Pakistan and the Nuristani of Afghanistan descended from Alexander's army, but that myth was debunked. They look white but they have no European DNA.
>>946491
>"By the time they were come to this age (12ish) there were not any of the more hopeful boys who had not a lover to bear him company."
Citation needed.
>>946586
Plutarch, Lycurgus
Another translation:
"When the boys reached this age, they were favoured with the society of lovers from among the reputable young men."
Here's some more in case you're not convinced:
"The boys' lovers also shared with them in their honour or disgrace; and it is said that one of them p265was once fined by the magistrates because his favourite boy had let an ungenerous cry escape him while he was fighting. Moreover, though this sort of love was so approved among them that even the maidens found lovers in good and noble women, still, there was no jealous rivalry in it, but those who fixed their attentions on the same boys made this rather a foundation for friendship with one another, and persevered in common efforts to make their loved one as noble as possible."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Lycurgus*.html
>>946434
Source?
>>946688
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people#European_descent
Actually it's a bit confusing now because a newer study claims they have connections to Siberian hunter-gatherers, so maybe there is some connection to Europe? Whatever the case is, they aren't descended from Alexander's army.
http://world.greekreporter.com/2015/06/02/new-study-denies-the-greek-origin-of-kalash-tribe-in-pakistan/
>>946632
Plutarch? Please. How about a source that wasn't born 500 years AFTER the height of Spartan power?
See, this is what I'm talking about, all these people talking big SHIT with absolutely NOTHING to back it up, except some BULLSHIT written by unknown fags HUNDREDS of years AFTER Sparta ceased to exist as a power.
Surely there wouldn't be people trying to talk mad shit about the people that used to regularly make them their bitches on the field of battle?
Of course not.
Gullible plebs, the lot of you.
>>946735
>that picture
Rome was a big place
people in Egypt or Africa looked a lot different from those in Britain or Italy
>>946735
Capitalizing random words in the middle of your sentences doesn't make your "arguments" more structurally sound.
>>946776
Maybe in 500 years some pleb "scholar" will say otherwise, and other gullible plebs will believe him...
>>946735
Ah, a Xenofag. OK then. Here, go nuts:
"I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favours. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys.
The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connection as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other."
Seems straight forward, right? Oh wait.
"I am not surprised, however, that people refuse to believe this. For in many states the laws are not opposed to the indulgence of these appetites."
So an author with an obvious bias against other Greek states (particularly Athenians) is taunting them for their treasured buggery? Gee I wonder why.
Now then, did he know Lycurgus? No.
Was Lycurgus equidistant in time from Xenophon that Sparta was from Plutarch? Yes.
Now for Xeno's own words, after he fucking lived there, as I'm sure you'll jump to point out.
"Should anyone ask me whether I think that the laws of Lycurgus still remain unchanged at this day, I certainly could not say that with any confidence whatever."
So on one hand, we have a distant account saying that it did happen, and a contemporary one saying it didn't because of a law code written by a mythologized king that he can't even claim is still followed.
hmmmmmmmmm
>>946949
The only thing you've offered is a contemporary view that says faggotry is NOT approved of in Sparta, and there is absolutely no doubt about the context of this statement.
On the other hand, we have a seemingly contrary statement made without fully knowing the context in which it was spoken. We don't know exactly which laws he is referring to, do we? No, we don't. He could be referring to any number of laws that gave way over the years, and you're simply trying to associate his statement with faggotry.
At least you were decent enough to offer a contemporary source, though, unlike the rest of the morons in this thread.
>>947025
Not approved of, or outlawed by the traditions of Lycurgus? Two different things.
It is true though that the statement about whether the laws are practiced still isn't directly after his statement on boyfuckery, but it is at the end of his overview of Lycurgan law.
I wish we had more Spartan sources to debate with, and so that we could know once and for all if Leuktra truly was the end all be all Fagmachia.
Demetrius I of Macedon was offended when the Spartans sent his court a single envoy, and exclaimed angrily, "What! Have the Lacedaemonians sent no more than one ambassador?" The Spartan responded, "Aye, one ambassador to one king."
When asked whether it would be prudent to build a defensive wall enclosing the city, Lycurgus answered, "A city is well-fortified which has a wall of men instead of brick."
Nearing death, Agesilaus was asked if he wanted a statue erected in his honor. He declined, saying; "If I have done anything noble, that is a sufficient memorial; if I have not, all the statues in the world will not preserve my memory."
fuuuuuuuuu
>>944779
>Synder literally claims that the 300 movie is literally "90% historically accurate when it released to theaters".
>And makes zero reference to its fictional exaggerations at all.
Nigger please, stop defending that shitty movie.
>>944450
>Greeks
>"white"
>>944562
>>944585
>/pol/
Also you are both retarded. The Greeks own belief of the Persians were that the Persians were direct descendants of Perseus. I highly doubt given Greek and Macedonian accounts of Persians being fair skinned and treating them in their mythology as seeing them as "shitskinned middle-easterns".
>>947620
Philip II of Macedon told the spartans “If I win this war, you will be slaves forever.”Spartans replied "if"
>>946719
Why don't beautiful white people with an actual culture immigrate I'm Europe instead of the regular sand gypsy
>>944871
Learn to source criticism mate. Just because they loved Sparta doesn't mean the descriptions are accurate. They did, like Tacitus describing, exaggerate to make their point about the hybris of the Athenian/Roman state.
>>947784
2 people I studied with are writing their PhDs on Sparta (one about the Krypteia, the other one about admiral and generals like Eurybiades). They both love 300 and state that following the source material it's an accurate description. In one of the sources (I think Herodotus) of the Battle of Thermopylae the author says that 12 million Persians were attacking. Dudes were exaggerating themselves to tell an ancient action tale.
>>943124
They were good warriors. Noone claims they were good for anything else. Fucking idiot
>>943142
Those comments remind me that you guy are exposed to popular culture rather than to actual historical education.
Spartans DID write and in fact most of what we know about the founding of Sparta derives from Spartan poems. The idea of them not being busy with philosophy and literature is one of the prime examples of Athenian projection and fiction (by implicitly and explicitly comparing Sparta and Athens where everybody was always busy talking/writing instead of doing what's necessary).
https://prezi.com/7rlrkdh6cdtg/spartan-writing-and-literature/
>>948194
Yeah except in Modernity and Antiquity both, people praised that they didn't take part in trading, had a classless society and part of the bigger Hellenic nation when needed.
>>948205
>had a classless society
>Sparta
AHAHAHAAHAHAAAAA!
Sparta had the closest thing to caste society in Greece. Once the lowest caste of helots was freed by Corinth Sparta was unable to maintain its model.
>>948225
Helots are not considered a part of Spartan society since they had no rights at all. Also I did not say they had a classless society but that people thought they did and they did cause they were following Athenian historiography.
>>948147
They look white but their culture is really different, I don't know if Europeans would like it. They'd probably be hated as much as the gypsies.
Easy answer: as Western civilization becomes increasingly pussified, men look back at earlier cultures and admire them for having the balls to stand up for themselves.
Why do you think people are drawn to vikings, Spartans, etc? Because they were badasses that didn't take anyone's shit. All the rapefugee shit in Europe wouldn't be happening if they handled it like men and slaughtered the rapists with an axe or something.
>>943124
They are one of the few warrior/martial societies that actually won wars on a regular basis.
>>946735
>that third portrait
>>945168
Pretty, Pretty buildings to learn medicine, make works of art, decide government etc, etc. Witty one liners progress civilisation by nil. Architecture encourages art thus progressing the general intelligence of the populace
>>953963
Doesn't matter any more considering the fact that they're crumbling pieces of shit now, why the hell should we give a fuck about a bunch of useless piles o man made structures put together a thousand years ago when we have bigger problems to deal with now?
>>944825
I don't even get why everyone is so upset about the boy lover scene, the way I see it he uses that as a insult while in Sparta they don't see it as loving. They see it as toughing up
Since this thread has some /pol/shit in it,
Anyone else noticing random threads being deleted, no matter how historical, just because they have a controversial non-PC topic? I knew there was staff applications the other day but I'm surprised to see so much hands-on things so quickly. It's distracting and often a shame.
>>954910
Good. These /pol/ loving morons are ruining most of 4chan. This place has become a ultra right wing cesspool quite frankly and not because it's right wing but because they act so uncivilized and spew unending hate towards any opinion that it not exactly inline with theirs.
This is ridiculous. When it was contained on /pol/ you could except it since it was the culture of the board but now from /tv/ to /adv/ to /sci/ and even /his/ they have swarmed and infested 4chan.
These mods should do something like put up an announcement addressing the problem
>>954959
/pol/ is a board of peace.
>>954959
I honestly can't imagine you being far from the opposite problem, if /pol/ triggers you so hard.
Posters on a higher level can easily ignore that, use it for their own purposes, laugh at it, find unassuming threads that dont attract those types. But obviously you're not on that level.
I mean the fact that you find the "right-wing" elements more pressing than the political-contemporary-fad language that enables anything of that sort, at all, is revealing.
>>948189
Herodotos says 1.2 million, but sure he was still exageratting.
>>946719
Holy fuck where i can get me one of these
>>943124
>They were society of boyfuckers and cousinfuckers where small percentage of population brutally subjugated, enslaved and murdered majority.
Excellent work.
>What are their achievements of science, philosophy and art?
they ARE the science, philosophy and art.
>>950471
That's very naive of you. You sounded like the vikings, spartans..etc do not rape.
They rape you outside-in inside-out everyday. The only difference is that they are too manly, every woman who is "raped" by them like them.
>>955827
Ok I fucked up there but my point still stands.
>>944822
Athens sold out to Persia. When the people found out they were furious. The Spartans fought and did their duty, illustrating walking the walk vs talking the talk
>protip: monuments and art are just talk. defending civilization is walk.
