Why did Japan industrialize so quickly vs. China?
China was swimming in natural resources, had access to western technology and methods, sent numerous foreign missions. Japan had next to no natural resources but had all the rest.
Why did they succeed where China failed?
>>936798
Neither Japan nor China actually liked Westernization and both did what they could to prevent it. That said, Japan was the weaker of the two.
>>936798
1.) Japan opened up later than China, and thus could take some lessons from China's disastrous modernization(or lack there of).
2.) Radical modernizers overthrew the Shogunate(aka the traditionalists) in 1868 and dragged the country towards their vision.
Those are two of the basic, broad reasons.
>>936798
Japan was unable to resist being opened up to the West, but once it happened it was agreed to be an inevitability. Both Shogunate and imperial factions were pro-westernization, even if the Imperials cried crocodile tears about how bullied Japan was getting.
On the other hand the degenerate and ineffectual Qing resisted change even when they lost successive wars against Western powers. Not much surprise that ex-nomads would be shitty at actually ruling an empire desu.
>>936823
2) is wrong. The Shogunate was also pro-modernization. The Imperial faction was going on about how modernization was humiliating and superior nipponese steel (but when they got in power they basically continued the Shogunate's policies, just with British assistance instead of French)
>>936825
>On the other hand the degenerate and ineffectual Qing resisted change even when they lost successive wars against Western powers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Strengthening_Movement
>>936798
Japan was smaller and far more centralized which made change far more easier to implement, likewise they got secondhand experiance from China regarding the perils of failing to Westernise.
>>936830
>>936798
US helped them rebuild just as with South Korea.
>>936825
>ineffectual Qing resisted change even when they lost successive wars against Western powers. Not much surprise that ex-nomads would be shitty at actually ruling an empire desu.
The Qing tried to modernize ya nig. Except due to fucking up in the face of "barbarians," not to mention their internal fuck ups, the Qingz mandate of heaven was now put into question and the people of the Empire began their traditional "let's overthrow the government" phase. Just look up the fact that during the 1911 revolt, a Modern Army was defending the Qing dynasty. They tried but it was too late.
Also this was the fucking 1800's. The Qing Manchus rulers' Manchuness was culturally dead and didn't even consider themselves separate from the Chinese no more. Of course, the Anti-Qing factions didn't care and brought up the Qing's Steppenig past.
>>938107
>>936876
This actually strikes at the heart of why Japan succeeded, because the Imperial Court in japan was a figure head, so you could easily replace the people in charge (bakufu / imperials) while maintaining the facade of the legitimacy of the junta, because hey, you got the god emperor on your side.
In China the ceremonial side of the regal and its power were not so disparate; you can't pull the rug from under yourself and expect to come out on top.
>>936798
China happened, and Japan decided they didn't want that to happen to them. They had the advantage of not being the first.
>>936798
The unequal treaties imposed on Japan were only "unequal" to the Japanese central government, not Japanese merchants and clans that were involved in virtually tax-free trade with the europeans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_of_Kanagawa
In a matter of years imports increased drastically and completely changed the Japanese economy. Rather like the modern day, a few businesses collapsed due to foreign competition but multitudes of others sprang up and rapidly made use of the new technology.
At the same time China was in turmoil due to the Taiping rebellion, it was very unstable and not a good location for industry. By contrast the Boshin war was short, led by Japanese who embraced european technology for obvious reasons and resulted in the rapid formation of a new modern state.
>>936798
US control
Japan didn't fully "modernize" until the post-war period. You can't just magically catch up to the West, it takes time and Japan was still quite behind the West, even in the 1930's.
>>936798
>Why did Japan industrialize so quickly vs. China?
Japan in the 1800s
>This is a great country and all, but the west has some great technological achievements. We should ask them to help us
China up until the 1900s
>REEEE FUCK OFF WESTERN PIG DOGS! Chine is best and knows everything!
Are Asians good at modernizing quickly or is it just a meme?
>>939210
no its more like they saw that china got FUKT by the brits and smart men saw that the samurai bullshit was fucking outdated
>>936798
China had no incentive to improve, so it got left behind until it was too late.
>>939210
This may be oversimplifying things, but it was definitely part of it. China has a long, long history of getting trounced by foreign powers but claiming superiority regardless. A lot of traditional Chinese culture was focused on an innate superiority to outsiders, to such a degree that they wouldn't even adopt technologies or systems that were clearly advantageous if they came from outsiders.
Highly related, the names they gave nearly all of their neighbors were derogatory to some degree;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphic_pejoratives_in_written_Chinese
I'd say Japans smaller size, fairly educated populace, and cultural unity helped.
China is huge and was mostly filled with illiterate peasants.
>>939210
Not really the case as seen here
>>936876
And
>>938107
They knew shit was up for them by the 1840's-60's. Though of course Chinese pride was still around.
But the problem is really
>>938214
If a Chinese dynasty fucks up. No amount of modernization in hell can save it from it's own people. Those scholars they sent abroad to help modernized China returned as fucking Nationalists. The Modern Army units' generals were gunning to reenact the traditional Chinese interdynastic civil wars but this time with Mausers and Trains, while the Chinese populace was up in arms with the overthrow of the Qing, either looking for a New Imperial Dynasty, or later following the Nationalists and looking to establish a Republic.
>>938081
What? I think that you are confused.
>>939232
>to such a degree that they wouldn't even adopt technologies or systems that were clearly advantageous if they came from outsiders
You're oversimplifying things yourself.
China had a long history of adopting things from foreigners as well. But many of these were mostly military while the rest are of little value. But they still did.
However that changed when the Ming met the Jesuits, and China did adopt shitloads of stuff from the Europeans
>Modern Cannon.
>Potatoes
>Glassmaking
To name a few.
Its just that it had a spat of isolationism by the Ming dynasty. As the Empire under the Qing was relatively self-sufficient.
>>939273
>just that it had a spat of isolationism by the QING dynasty.*
>>939273
>Potatoes
You know, for a staple crop, the Chinese sure did not use them.
>>939273
Yeah, that's a fair point, I may have simplified things a bit too much myself there.
Chinese culture's view of outsiders always kind of fascinated me though. The superiority/inferiority thing seems like it's taken way further than most civilizations went before the Colonial Era. Also always found it interesting that they were largely content with staying within their own bounds, despite their cultural views and at times ludicrous technological advantages.
>>939290
They did actually. And today China is the largest potato producer in the world.
>http://www.potatopro.com/china/potato-statistics
>>939290
You can't change a staple that easily
Chinese people eat yams though
>>939307
Is China not the largest producer in anything these days
>>936798
Emperor Meiji decided he actually wanted to Westernize. The Qing didn't until almost 1900.
>>939321
Women?
>>939321
Nope. Wheat is still USA's dominant food product.
>>939214
They're actually pretty good at it, but in Korea/Taiwan's case, they had extensive foreign help in the form of the USA. Singapore also just had an absolutely fucking based leader who could see which way the wind would blow and make unpopular decisions that would help save the country in the future.
R.I.P Lee ;__;
>>939335
Didn't the westernization start during the Tokugawa era, albeit in much smaller scale?
>>939998
not really but the zaibatsus started in that period
>>936798
Might have to do with a civil war that killed tens of millions of people followed by a famine that killed almost as many?
>>936798
Inertia. It is harder to move a mountain than it is a grain of sand.
>>936798
Because of the "reverse equilibrium trap". Basically it was literally too expensive to spend time innovating compared to doing things the way they were already done. Kind of like how the stream engine was invented in Alexandria but never caught on because it was cheaper to use slaves than to invest in creating and calibrating new technology.
>>939237
Source
>>939210
Why does China always think it's superior at everything?
>>939214
Mostly a meme.
>>940373
Long history of actually being superior to anyone nearby. Shits gonna leave a cultural mark.
>>940373
They were the big dog in the region for a few thousand years and had no contact with other significant powers (inb4 the Roman maymay, they had a vague idea of them).
>>936798
Wojak edit for you
