>Everyone has to suffer because someone choose to eat the wrong apple
>Sometimes people are born with physical or mental defects not because of the wrong choices of their parents or ancestors, but because it fulfills the will of God
For what purpose?
God works in mysterious ways :)
Agnostic disbelieverfag here.
The way I've heard it explained is that God created man so that man could experience love - but you can only have love if there's free will involved. So when Adam and Eve chose to eat the apple, it wasn't god "predestining" it will happen, it was an act that Adam and Eve made for themselves because of the freedom granted to them afforded by God.
>>917881
If God had never spawned the apple into existence Man would still have a choice between choosing to love God and not.
The Genesis story makes no sense because it's a totally different God than the rest of the book. Genesis is borrowed from Babylonian mythology, in which the relationship between God and Man is one of master and slave. That is what is expressed in Genesis. Than the later books are about an entirely different God. Once you get to the New Testament you have yet another God.
everyone makes this assumption that it's all part of this grand ordained plan from this all powerful all knowing (and always there for you) mighty being. who teaches his sheep guides the way and waits for you at the finish
just look around you. god has no plan for us. god left this world a long time ago. perhaps he never arrived in the first place. all we can do is struggle to pick up the pieces as best we can.
>>917894
Sadly its probably like this.
>>917930
I wish I could feel the same about him.
>>917850
If the parents weren't genetically fit for each other and decide to have a kid with the risks of having a few defects... It was kind of their choice right? *grabs inhaler
>>917891
It's all the same God. Stop spouting this retarded bullshit. It's one God.
The Apple was there by the contrivance of the Satans, it was eaten because The Serpent became allied with Satan.
>>917881
Free will doesn't exist. If God is all-knowing,and the creator of the entire Universe, then everything we do is according to His design.
The demiurge is the creator that punished us for eating from the tree of knowledge. Lucifer, the light bringer, was sent by the God above to bring us enlightenment
There are two Gods. First, and imperfect malicious one, second, a loving perfect one
God is a malevolent deity as evidenced not only by our world but every single fucking thing he did in the Old Testament. I bet heaven is a giant prison.
>>917850
>thinking Christ fags believe that there literally were people named Adam and Eve
>literally the first two stories in their holy book contradict each other
>>918258
They literally believe in Christ's resurrection though, which is just as ridiculous.
>>918258
Im sure they do believe that there were people named Adam and Eve because the next argument is even more painful(about original sin).
>>917850
The story of Eden is allegorical to that of the relationship between parent and child. God protects his children, and protects their innocence, even by lying about the nature of the fruit. The fruit represents the transition to adulthood, and childhood innocence is lost as evident in their embarrassment of their nudity. When they have reaches adulthood, their parent, God, can no longer protect them from the outside world and must inturn force them to work for a living. Man must til, and woman must birth. These were the realities of man and woman at the time of the stories creation. It's an ancient way to explain why we suffer. You can't take the story literally because it conflicts very much with the other creation story. I was taught this interpretation in Catholic school.
I could never reconcile """" free"""" will with God's supposed omniscience - how do people explain this?
>>917850
>apple
into the trash it goes
>>918258
So they think we were all damned to hell over a metaphor? If you're a Jesusfag and you scoff at people who think Adam and Eve really existed, then you should just gas yourself because your worldview is hopelessly confused.
>>918267
But that makes no sense and I doubt people even looked at it like that.
>>918281
Exactly. Why is it so hard to believe Adam and Eve existed? Hell is obviously a place and that is where the seeds for this 'tree of '''knowledge'''' originated. Hell may be a place in the future, in the Earth, or in another dimension. I always lean towards determinism being the philosophy which would inevitably lead humans to hell if God did not exist.
>>917867
If god existed, it'd be an asshole.
Luckily it doesn't exist.
>>918338
I think God exists but i cant understand why he created us.
>>917850
>For what purpose?
you are their blood, you are their inheritor, it's as simple as that
>>917881
That is correct. They chose to disbelieve God, believe the devil, and violate the only rule they had to live by. And the instant they did so, they died. Just as God said.
>>917888
They were created without defects, and designed to live forever.
You are correct in saying it would have happened sooner or later, because that is the nature of man. If I tell you that you can have any sort of car you want, as many as you want, but you cannot have a Toyota Landcruiser, you will want a Toyota Landcruiser, because I have told you that you cannot have one.
>>917891
What choice? What would the alternative have been? To obey God, or to obey God? To do what God said, or to do what God said?
No, for man's agency to be exercised, an apparently viable option must exist.
>>917894
He does. This is it. You can hop on board, or not, as you choose to believe, or not. I agree that it's messy. I like that it's messy.
>>918212
Jesus was asked if the sins of a blind man caused him to be born blind, or the sins of his parents. Jesus said neither; that man was born blind so that Jesus could heal him, and demonstrate that Jesus is God.
Nevertheless, while it was not the man's sin, nor his parents' sin that caused the man to be blind, it was the presence of sin in the world that caused that man to be born blind.
There are no blind men in heaven, and there is nothing to see in hell.
>>918225
The bible reveals that the serpent is the dragon is the devil is satan.
>>918235
It is not God's will that anyone should perish, but that all find redemption in Christ Jesus.
Most people perish.
This is not being operated by God's will.
>>918267
Everything in the Garden of Eden is literally true, and needs no nonsensical allegorical sexual tale.
>>918271
You have free will to choose from among your available options.
You do not have the available option to surprise God (or to disappoint Him).
The truth reconciles itself.
>>918281
It is confusing for the lost to understand the things of God; however, it is not confusing to the children of God to know what God is doing.
>>919034
He is a relational being, even within Himself, and desires to have a relationship with His creations. A voluntary collaboration between Creator and created.
>>919133
>It is not God's will that anyone should perish, but that all find redemption in Christ Jesus.
>Most people perish.
>This is not being operated by God's will.
But that's not free will. That's ultimatum. Believe in me as your lord and savior or be cast into a lake of fire for all eternity.
Meanwhile, I didn't ask to be created. God created me KNOWING that I wouldn't accept his ultimatum.
How do you (or anyone) reconcile any of that with a loving god? Honestly looking for an answer.
>>917850
God is from the one, and being from the one is imperfect, imperfection breeds imperfection hence the mixed bag we have.
>>919121
But there are million other beliefs and people being born different makes everything pretty much impossible.
>I like that it's messy.
That's really cruel.
>>919183
>>919193
Anyone? Can any christfags defend this?
>>919323
No because they cant even prove that the Christian God is real.
>>917881
So you mean atheist.
>>919323
I really wish to see some christian trying to refute it.Its usually really entertaining.
>>917850
Anon the idea that God loves us is nothing but christian nonsense to not realize they are the slaves of a cosmic tyrant. God is not evil it is just an amoral entity that does whatever it wants. Once you see that God is not good or evil all the contradictory things it does makes complete sense.
>>919861
But that doesn't make sense either.
>>919323
Not a christian, but most christians don't believe in hell. It was just a medieval invention to scare people into giving stuff to the church.
The real choice is between heaven and non-existence. So if you don't believe, you get what you already believe you'll get, you'll simply cease to be.
There is no threat, you have two options, where one you will get rewarded for, and the other you get nothing for. Not punishment, but not the reward either.
>>917850
>someone has to be too autistic to contemplate deeper meanings
>>920235
>Not a christian, but most christians don't believe in hell. It was just a medieval invention to scare people into giving stuff to the church.
>The real choice is between heaven and non-existence. So if you don't believe, you get what you already believe you'll get, you'll simply cease to be.
Maybe it's just because I'm an Amerifag but I've never, ever, ever, heard a church espouse this viewpoint.
I've read the bible enough times to know hell isn't mentioned much but the vast majority of non-catholic churches and attendees believe it to be real.
>>918225
>It's all the same God. Stop spouting this retarded bullshit. It's one God.
OH, I forgot that the Bible "tells you so". Truly, the end all be all, right?
Dumb cunt.
>>919159
>"I can make myself look smarter by repeating some mystical-sounding things without actually offering any substance."
Typical Christcuck
>>917850
>>917881
>>917891
>>918225
>apple
Literally never said to be an apple in the Bible.
>>919127
>The bible reveals that the serpent is the dragon
Also never in the Bible. Cite chapter and verse.
>inb4 you post about the other serpent in Revelation 20:2 and say "but they have to be the same!!!!!" even though it never says they are in the Bible
The very act of creation discounts God as a "perfect" being, a quality that all Christian churches consider dogma.
'Why' did God create the universe? Being an eternal being, there would have been as much time before him as behind him, meaning something prompted him to 'create'. But how can anything have prompted God, since nothing was created at that point? Also, being the nexus, God cannot arrive at conclusions, as he has already reached all of them.
If God needed company, then he is not perfect, because he expressed a need that his supposedly "flawed" creations share.
I've heard Christcucks say he created us for our "benefit", but my counter is that overall, the act of Creation will have resulted in the overwhelming majority of most humans experiencing a net loss, since most humans will not be saved.
>>917850
Because keks.
>>920278
same here. the only group I know of that believes that non-saved souls cease to exist are Jehovah's Witnesses, and even with them you still get thrown into a fire, your soul just literally perishes there
If God wants to prove himself now would be the time.
>>922476
here's your proof of the divine and your (Yu)
>>919183
For Catholics physical fire isn't the real pain, it's the seperation from God and being eternally out of his grace. A soul no matter how stubbornly they hated God will eventually break at the prospect of being separated from their creator forever.
Of course that'll leaves the question "why wouldn't a loving all powerful God allow damned souls to be redeemed if they repent?" I mean hell even if a repented soul in hell had to wait a billion years to be saved, that is still more merciful than an eternity.
>having any other God than the Great Aesthetic
Plebs
>>922491
The Orthodox have a sentiment similar to that but in typical Orthodox fashion they aren't keen on specifics. What I've heard is basically "No man's stubbornness can outlast God's patience". For an all wise and all loving deity that makes sense.
>fanboys getting buttmad over misinterpretation of their favorite book series
God had different interpretation in Old/New Testaments because they were written by different writers. It's like how Batman sometimes kill people because he's written by different people and each one has a different interpretation of the character. The only difference is that God's series has a longer release/publication cycle, so we're probably stuck for a couple thousand more years until someone pick it up and write about him again.
Hell, maybe someone from Marvel will do it. May be God will be the new incarnation of Spiderman.
For me the question of theodicy has a simple answer:
If you could create a complex world, able to create literally anything you want. Would you create a world that's free of hate, pain and sadness? I certainly would not. Even children's shows contain them, because without bad things the world would be fucking boring, (as seen by an outsider that does not live in our reality).
>watch sports game
>video tape it
>watch it again with a friend
You know the outcome of the match but you didn't have an effect on it. You simply had foreknowledge.
Likewise we have free will, but God already knows what decisions we will make in our future.
He know everything that would happen before He created the universe.
Atheists always have the retarded idea that "time" exists for God, it doesn't.
Time, space, matter are creation by God. God is outside of time, He can see our past, present and future at will. There is no such thing as time in Heaven.
If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of Good or Evil until they ate the fruit, how could they have understood that obeying God was Good and disobeying God was evil?
>>922660
>He know everything that would happen before He created the universe.
So the videotape analogy is incorrect, because you did not create the players, the wind that affects the ball trajectory etc. It is like writing a program that simulates a sports game, knowing exactly how it will compile, and then watching the simulation progress while claiming to have had no effect because the computer/code is making computations on its own.
>>922657
Hurr watching retards suffer is fun!
What a benevolent god that is.
>>922707
Wrong.
>>922720
Great argument.
Felix Culpa
The Fall was a good thing because it opened up the possibility of Salvation. The Garden was an abstract utopia in which nobody played an important role of their own volition, or one which they comprehended. The Fall happened because free will cannot be satisfied by these circumstances.
Jesus couldn't just have been presented to them immediately after they got kicked out of Eden, it wouldn't make any sense, the whole thing would be meaningless. "You fucked up, here ya go, no effort at all on your part, no comprehension of s deeper message played out over the course of time, here's some guy whose flesh is bread, enjoy"
That wouldn't have been appealing. There's no Israel here. Nobody can identify with Adam and Eve because we have not known a primal, sinless state. We can identify with the Apostles because they were men who comprehended good and evil by their own inborn nature. Adam and Eve desecrated human nature to gain us this power. The story of pre-Incarnation history, according to the Bible, is the history of Israel learning, forgetting, and relearning God's Law. Christ is not a law, however; the moral life of Christianity does not consist in following a law on Earth but in applying the principles of Heaven to our dealings with our brothers and sisters on Earth. This cannot be comprehended without an understanding of the process as a whole; the process consists roughly of a passage from blissful ignorance which leads to an encounter with sinful knowledge, to the possession sinful knowledge, to knowledge which avoids sin and cleanses us of it, to knowledge which is sinless, back to action which is sinless. The culmination, eternal life, is not the end result of God's creation but a consequence of free will run amock and brought back on course by a loving Creator, simply to bait us into knowledge of Reason.
The bible was written by sandniggers so primitive they were unable to correlate the birth defects you mentioned with heredity, don't read too much into it.
>>922770
Spotted the atheist.
I don't understand christian god at all. The story is full of contradictions.
>Creates man in his image
>First Man ever is a NEET and turns out to be gullible as fuck moments later
>God puts him in a paradise garden of doing fuck all
>Puts a fucking tree man is never supposed to eat in the middle
>Man is bored
>God creates woman, who will set to be root of all evil, instead of another dude
>They come to the forbidden tree
>God has begrudged employees hanging around his skinner box, plotting against him
>woman eats the fruit
>man doesn't even attempt to stop her, even eats one himself when prompted
>God gets platinum mad, chases them away from the garden and makes them mortal, and in constant need of labor to obtain food
Just WHY?
>>922777
>777
Holy shit!
>>922760
Literal masochist.
>important role of their own volition, or one which they comprehended
Because we are better now?
>>919183
You're the one who chooses to go to hell
God doesn't send you there
>>922819
Except he was created with a particular mind, body, soul and exposed to a particular set of experiences throughout his life, all ultimately authored by God. In such a case, while he may "choose" to go to Hell, it is only because he was designed that way in the first place.
>>922777
God's reasoning is not meant to be pondered, God could be experimenting with reality.
>>922826
>experimenting
What the fuck?
Isn't he supposed to know everything?
He knows the result. He could make it happen in an instant.
What is the point?
>Con-man invents twisty logic mumbo-jumbo story too clever for uneducated tent-dwelling goatherders to unravel.
>3,000 years later, some dumb cunts are still falling for it despite science 'n internet 'n shit.
I despair for humanity sometimes. I really do.
>>922844
Consider this,if you made a universe simulator, and you know every outcome mainly because you created an inevitable end, would you still fuck around with it?
>>922851
Do you have omniscient knowledge of the simulator? Not just the inevitable end goal, but exact knowledge of how every single step of every single permutation of every single seed will possibly play out?
>>922855
Yes, absolutely.
>>922847
it may have just been an elaborate story back in the day but it gained meaning across the ages as different philosophers garnered some meaning out of it.
>>922861
Then why not just say
>"hey, guys, I was reading this old book and it gave me a great idea! Why don't we..."
It's the literal autists that bug me. You point out a flaw in their reasoning, and they just think your testing their faith!
I think there is a certain percentage of the population that has a broken logic switch in there somewhere. Just as children raised in the wild never develop grammar once past a certain age, I think these people just never got the whole cause>effect thing. They're not exactly stupid. Just unaware that their opinion is meaningless by default due to an unsustainable argument.
If anything, they are to be pitied. Except they come to places like this and splurge their stupidity around as if arrogance was a noble attribute.
>>922881
check out the /christian/ board on infinite chan.There is a whole thread about this and they still do mental gymnastics.
>>917850
>Sometimes people are born with physical or mental defects not because of the wrong choices of their parents or ancestors, but because it fulfills the will of God
A lot of answers humans are might imagine.
1. Their ancestor did something wrong and God punish his offspring.
2. Some devil or demon punish him for his of purposes.
3. Their ancestor did something wrong to wrong people and witch punish his offspring with hex.
4. This is test of faith and devoutness by heaven.
et cetera
>>923130
5. His father don't gave coins to a gypsy and they did a hex of his children.
>>923130
>the list can go on....
