Why does /his/ hate the Byzantine Empire, but have a hard-on for the "Holy" "Roman" ""Empire""?
Byzantine Empire - an actual surviving Roman Imperial remnant with surviving institutions (i.e. the Senate, the military) that continues to exist for 1000 more years. A great and noble history, renowned for its great cities and its trade and its military exploits.
"Holy" "Roman" ""Empire"" - a series of extremely loosely affiliated duchies, baronies, princedoms, kingdoms, free cities, republics, bisphorics, and counties that only nominally (if even that) recognize the ""Emperor"", but are de facto independent and not obliged to follow the ""Emperor's"" demands. Not a trace of classical Greco-Roman culture or tradition. Nothing particularly great comes out of this ""Empire"" except instability, confusion, and disintegration that mercifully ends when Napoleon deposes the last ""Emperor"".
The Holy Roman Empire was not always as decentralized as it was in the late Habsburg era. You are just following Europa Universalis history.
Excuse me, superior state coming through
>>843454
It was always decentralized, from the very start. It was more of a loose alliance based on clan affiliations than an actual ordered empire. One would have needed an extremely charismatic emperor to rule, seeing as other than that, nothing really compelled vassals to follow the head other than nominally.
>>843460
1797 best day of my life
>>843419
It's the /pol/ neckbeards who feel this way.
The Byzantine Empire let le ebil T*rkroaches conquer their beloved city which was a shadow of it's former self anyway - Mehmet II actually improved the place - and also because white Christians are good innocent boys who dindu nuffin wrong so apparently all the atrocities committed against Orthodox Christians during the Crusades were entirely justified.
Meanwhile the Holy Roman Empire was Christian and Germanic, and went to war with le ebil Mudslimes (until Barbarossa became kill in Anatolia) so of course /pol/ would have a hardon for it.
The HRE didn't get their capital sacked because they refused to pay their debts.
>>843472
>le pol boogeyman
>>843471
At least 1204 was (almost) a merciful end
1797 was unjust and it honestly neutralizes my opinion of Napoleon ;(
>>843473
>refused to pay their debts
Excuses, the Crusaders would have sacked it anyways. Besides, perhaps the Eastern Romans could have paid back the debts if the territories won in the First Crusade had been given back to the Emperor (as had been agreed) instead of setting up weak and disorganized independent Crusader States in Antioch, Edessa, and Jerusalem. God knows the Eastern Romans would have administrated it with a semblance of competence, unlike the Latins.
Also, HRE didn't even have a permanent or even 'real' capital.
>>843471
No, it wasn't. So much that when Dukes died without heir, the title reverted to the Emperor.
>>843483
1453 was when the Byzantine Empire ended. Although by that point it was basically whittled down to just Greece and parts of the Balkans, as they had lost the rest of their land due to years of Arabic and Turkish conquest.
The Ottoman victory at Constantinople wasn't quite this massive feat it's portrayed as. The Byzantine Empire was a total shithole by the time the Turks reached it's walls, nowhere near it's previous glory days.
>>843483
>1204
>merciful
Anon, are you from another dimension?
>>843494
Yeah, in the 9th century...
>>843419
This board is filled with Byzaboos. whenever someone makes a thread about it, there is some vocal minority who refuse to actually discuss the merits of the Eastern Roman Empire.
>>843500
>>843501
Get rekt, Byzaboos
Dandolo dindu nuffin
>>843483
Napoleon just best them in battle. If you're gonna be mad at anyone, be mad at Francis for ragequitting and disforming a state that had existed for nearly a thousand years because he lost a war, something which the German people were very used to yet never resulted in the dismantling of the Empire.
>>843512
I remember you, Anon.
You're the dingus that didn't know you were supposed to cut the tails then attempted it and goofed up.
Looks ok now though.
Great moves, keep it up, proud of you.
>>843514
>Napoleon just best them in battle
Is this what Venetianboos actually believe? The Venetians didn't even attempt to fight: they surrendered unconditionally to Napoleon's demands. Pathetic.
Then again, what can you do once your formerly great fleet is reduced to four galleys and some fishing ships?
>>843508
This happened later, as well. Also, you said the Holy Roman Empire was always a collection of loose duchies.
>>843524
Thx
>>843514
<Germany has never won a war
>Israel has never lost a war
>>843493
Maybe the Byzantines would have regained some of their lands if they hadn't just chickened out from helping the Crusaders, as it also was agreed on?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade#Siege_of_Antioch
>Stephen of Blois, a Crusade leader, was in Alexandretta when he learned of the situation in Antioch. It seemed like their situation was hopeless so he left the Middle East, warning Alexios and his army on his way back to France.[94] Because of what looked like a massive betrayal, the leaders at Antioch, most notably Bohemond, argued that Alexios had deserted the Crusade and thus invalidated all of their oaths to him.
> God knows the Eastern Romans would have administrated it with a semblance of competence, unlike the Latins.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>843597
How is that the fault of the Eastern Romans? Sounds like the Frankish Stephen of Blois was a huge coward who - to top it off - couldn't even be counted on to deliver accurate news.
We wuz Roamin
>>843608
Maybe the Byzantines actually should have actually decided to take some risks instead of just listening to a single French guy while just letting their allies die?
>>843419
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rNUsOaB5V2c
They stopped being Roman long before they died they were like Romes retarded son. The things people liked about the Romans tend to be the glory and how the got it. The ERE just sort of lived off past glory aure they won battles here but after at a certain point they lost the Roman virtues. Read some Roman writers and you can see what the ERE lacked. That being said they were still more roman than the HRE.
>>843512
WHO PAID YOU TO GRAB CONSTANTINOPLE?
>>843618
>take some risks
I would hardly fault them, considering they had lost most of Asia Minor and the Levant. Also, they had been fighting the Muslims for a longer time, and knew the dangers of engaging them head on without a massive army and well-thought plan/strategy/logistics. Why would they go if they legitimately thought the Crusading Latins had been annihilated?
>allies
They were distrusted from the start. The refined and cultured Greeks were surprised and disgusted when they saw the mass of disorganized, barbarian-descended Franks who relied less on strategy and logistics and entirely on 'muh bravery! muh honor!'
>>843650
>Hurr durr durr, the Latins was total barbarians, the Byzantines had no reasons to help them!
>BAAAW, why didn't the crusaders give back land to the Byzantines?
THat's kinda how you are sounding right now.
>>843645
It didn't burn so good!
>>843645
WHO PAID YOU TO MASSACRE THE LATINS?
>>843630
To be fair, you're right to a certain extent. The Eastern Roman Empire never attained the glory of the Roman Republic or the Roman Empire during the Pax Romana, and once they went Orthodox and discarded Latin for Greek in official usage in the 6th century, they were markedly different.
However, I still want to say that the Byzantines legitimately held themselves to be the unbroken legacy of the Roman Empire, and considered themselves to be 'Romans', and their empire to be the Roman Empire. And while I concede they were never able to equal the grandeur of Imperial Rome, they still possessed the greatest city of the world at the time, a relatively efficient bureaucracy, an effective military, a level of refined culture and sophistication that had been lost in the West, and were the leaders of trade and commerce.
>>843667
I never said the Byzantines shouldn't help the Latins. I'm saying that the news that reached Alexios was that the Latin host at Antioch had been destroyed. Why would he have turned and raced to Antioch, then? Better to return and consolidate and make more plans. It was not his fault he did not rush to Antioch (seeing as he honestly believed the Latins had already been destroyed), and it does not demonstrate any moral fault in the Byzantines.
>>843472
Actually it was the Byzantine Empire that sold brother Christians of a different stripe into slavery to Muslims and displayed such slavering incompetence. Backstabbing, ruthless power politics, going backbon their word was their standard.
>>843650
>lost most of Asia and the Levant
Wow, I wonder whose fault that was? Oh yeah, their own mismanagement.
>muh bravery, muh honor
When honorable Christians beat out the deceitful muh refined Greeks and manage to take the entirety of Hispania back without fucking cross continental military expeditions, it makes me wonder what's wrong with your logic apparatus.
>>843679
I agree they were legitimately the romans simply by surviving the western roman collapse. The thing I hate about them is they had the roman over confidence but not their brilliance. The roman virtues aren't present in the ERE they lacked the never say die no surrender type leadership that made Rome great. The same thing that happened in the east is what killed the west they became to decadent and confident. The romans built the empire but the greeks lost it.
>>843679
Literally everybody literally knows that they held themselves to be Romans. But they weren't even TransRomans, they were cosplaying Romans.
>>843688
>"worthless" Latins defeated
>your force still outnumbers enemy force
>turn tail and hie all the way to Constantinople instead of falling back a bit and regrouping, or maybe even advancing
Normal behavior for normal Byzantines and Byzaboos, ladies and gents.
>>843688
I suppose I were wrong.
Though considering that the crusaders at the siege of Antioch had already returned large parts of Asia minor to the Emperor, reinstated the Orthodox patriarch and had to fend of a muslim siege by themselves without receiving any aid, was it really morally wrong by them to start taking lands for themselves? Alexious, even if his reasons was just, had failed to deliver them any support.
>>843419
Funny how Byzaboos call it the "defender of europe" when as far as it was concerned, the Barbarians lived in the West as well as from the East.
>>843688
The Byzantines deserved what they got they lost the levant and egypt didn't help the latins and with an enemy at the gates continued to pointlessly fight amongst themselves. The Romans wouldn't have begged a foreign power to save them from their enemies. The Byzantines couldn't hold the territory and lost it simple as that.
>>843512
Where do I buy Venetian flag?
Also are you actually Venetian or just a roleplayer?
>>843740
I got it from a website called patriotic-flags.com
I had to cut out these white strips between the tails though
I'm just your friendly neighborhood venetiaboo
>>843735
Yep. Rome didn't beg for shit. From Latin Wars against the Etruscans, to wars against the Latins for dominance, to the conquest of Italy and beyond, Rome was often the underdog, and ended up the top dog. The Byzantine Empire was the top dog and lost hilariously with monotonous regularity.
>>843419
>People crapping on the system of the Holy Roman Empire
While it was shit in creating a single state in Germandom, it was great in that it decentralized politics.
Meaning: shitloads of Germans participated in politics down to the local level like City/Village government.
Leading to 1) more rights for the Burghers/Peasant class and 2) Rise of civic action mentality among many German states, which came with a vengeance during the 1700's-1800's when German states had associations from autistic hobbies to colonial projects.
>>843717
The Byzantine Greeks calling themselves Romans is no different than a white Anglo calling himself American. They weren't ethnic Italians, speaking Latin and holding the city of Rome, but their state was the Roman Empire, and their nationality was Roman.
>>843668
Alexios, I'm Crusaders
>>843748
The only good thing about the byzaboo threads is the certain presence of venetiaboos.
>>843780
If venetiaboos trigger them, i wonder how they would feel about a normanboo.
>>843705
The only reason the Europeans were able to retake Hispania was because of the balkanization of the Muslim rulers there...
>>843770
The Romans themselves tried make the Roman 'identity' available to all citizens of conquered provinces, though. There were emperors who weren't even Italian (I believe there was even a Berber Emperor, once).
What are you trying to say? Greece was properly secured under Roman rule even under the days of the Republic.
>>843804
Yeah, like you can see on this map, where the Christians had a united front against the splittered Muslims.
>>843835
Also this battle, where the Christians only won since they could muster a much larger army than the Muslims.
>mfw people here talking shit about the Byzantines losing their territories to muslim dyansties
Oh! Just like the way all the (Frankish) Crusader states fell in only one century never to be recovered, right?
>>843843
To be fair the muslims don't even hold Jerusalem and probably will never recover it. Looks like neither side got the kingdom of Jerusalem in the end.
>>843843
>Just like the way all the (Frankish) Crusader states fell in only one century never to be recovered, right?
No, the these two historical data sets aren't comparable in that way.
>>843493
>Excuses, the Crusaders would have sacked it anyways.
not true
if prince Alexios hadn't petitioned the Crusaders to retake the empire his father lost then the crusade wouldn't have had an excuse to divert to Constantinople
>he will place the whole empire of Roumania in obedience to Rome
>he will give you 200,000 marks of silver, and food for all those of the host, both small and great
>tries to set fire to their ships and starve them instead
stay classy greeks
>>843843
>never to be recovered
>>843817
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Don't throw Republican Romans under a blanket with Imperial Romans. Republican Romans were very reluctant to extend Romanness to Campanians and Samnites 50 miles away, let alone some random faggot Greeks.
>>843931
I hope they did this singing rule britannia.
Because Christian Rome of any kind is a sin against Hellenic Rome.
>>844003
Israel is essentially just a more successful and insidious form of Crusader states
>>843419
I think it's just a reaction to insufferable Byzantineboos who won't shut up about being "victims" of Catholic or Muslim aggression, ignoring anything wrong they might have done to deserve it.
Greek Orthodox are the original dindu nuffins.
>>843532
>Is this what Venetianboos actually believe? The Venetians didn't even attempt to fight: they surrendered unconditionally to Napoleon's demands. Pathetic.
I think the people wanted to fight and the nobility decided to shot on them
>>844011
>Hellenic Rome
Justinian was the last good Byzantine emperor
Prove me wrong
It's so painful to read these discussions sometimes when people argue about history like it's about "their" team that won and why did the opposing team break the rules.
Of course like the people in /k", it's also naturally "my" team and "us" and even "we" who kicked your ass in that conflict. Eventhough there weren't any basement dwelling neckbeards taking part in the sack of rome.
I hate Byzaboos and HREboos because they're both cancer in Paradox games
>>844402
>>I hate Byzaboos and HREboos because they're both cancer in Paradox games
>he thinks he's not the cancer himself
Oh, the ironing
>>844192
But the Byzantines truly did nothing wrong.
Fucking muzzies had to come and ruin everything forever in the Levant, and the barbarian Latins had to chimp out and sack
the greatest city in the world at the time.
>>844492
The Arabs would possibly not have conquered the entire levant if the Byzantines had not been spending their spare time oppressing the local Christian sects.
>>844492
>oppress and sell into slavery fellow Christians with slightly different beliefs so badly that they prefer Persian and Muslim rule
>slaughter 80,000 Latins
>in 1204 they reinstall you
>you promised them a shitton of silver and food
>lock them out, burn their ships, hope they starve
>they sack the city because they're mad and starving
Ioannes wuz a good boy, he dindu nuffin
>>844520
>Latin merchants shit on poor local population
>Locals get mad and get slap them
>Croosaders pls help dem Orthogoyim no longer want to give us their shekels ;-;
>oppress and sell into slavery fellow Christians with slightly different beliefs so badly that they prefer Persian and Muslim rule
Valid argument but Catholics were also known to opress anyone who does not bow to the Pope
>>844782
>Their merchants was a bit rude against us
>So we stormed their Churches and hospitals and killed the sick and healthy alike
Why do we even allow the Balkans to exist?
byzzieboos truly are the most butthurt poster on /his/
>>844782
See >>844951
As for Catholic oppression, at least they did not sell them into freaking slavery to absolute heathens. Not to mention the fact that Catholicism was enough of a non-spiritual, non-ridiculous religion that it didn't facilitate the kind of radical infighting nonsense that Orthodoxy did.
>>844520
>usurper who nobody inbthe Byzantine Empire liked promised them a shitton of silver and food
fixed
JESUS CHRIST, how hard is this for you fags to comprehend?
***
A couple thousand innocent civilians
vs.
The weakening state that was crucial in keeping the Muslims from multiplying and swamping Europe
***
No contest. The Massacre of the Latins is a shit excuse, people who say "MUH LATINS DIED TOO" are literally Serb-tier
>>845510
>usurper who took back the throne and became the legitimate emperor ruling from the city, who his people should have followed loyally in such a time of crisis
FTFY
>>845543
So the best move for a weakening state that supposedly kept the Muslims out of Europe was the massacre the only people keeping it going economically? Smart move, you should write a book, you're a better strategist than Bobby Fischer. You do know it was Byzantine incompetence that led to Muslims entering Europe, right?
If Maniakes had won it probably wouldn't have been shit at all after a while.
>>843419
I don't. I for one cannot wait until the liberation of Constantinople and the rebirth of a Byzantine nation. I will be among the first immigrants, taking up residence in the home of a recently ethnically cleansed Turk. It will be a great nation, where the women dress as they once did and where they actually act as real women.
>>845584
What if they don't accept non-greeks?
>>845619
All he has do do is break his nose and smoke battery acid out of a crack pipe.
Posing as greek isn't that hard.
>>845636
What if he don't got any depts?
>>843572
>2006
>2008
>1974
Isnotreal loses a ton of wars
>>844492
>I don't know what Iconoclasty is
Byzantine Empire was the only European centralised state in Europe in all of its 1000 year old history.
Any other argument saying it isn't based on the Roman Imperial model of rulership is invalid.
I hate how Byzantium is lauded for being the bastion of christianity that insulated Europe from Muslim aggression. All that is saying is that the Byzantines sucked at fighting but that they took a long time to be conquered and some unrelated chucklefucks a thousand miles away benefited from it.
The Byzantines had their own plot of land that they had to protect and they fucking sucked at it. They let sand rats from the desert take their territory and build an empire out of it. When said Muslim empire collapsed, the Byzantines had 200 years to take advantage of the situation. Literally all they did in that time was conquer half of Armenia and half of the emirate of Aleppo
Then they lose 2/3rds of their empire to Turks in the span of 10 years. They only retake about half of that over the course of a century with the help fuckhuge armies of crusaders that periodically marched through enemy territory raping and killing Muslims so a Byzantine army could trail them and take over vacant cities.
It's a shit empire with a shit history and I laugh at anybody who tries framing things as "they were protected western Europe with their suffering!" or "give them a break, they were really tired after losing that one war, you can't blame them for losing the next one!"
>>845910
> "well it doesn't matter anyways, h-haha they lost in the end what a bunch of cuckaroos :^)"
> pretending 900 years of struggle isn't noteworthy
> pretending they weren't under attack by everyone around them for that whole time
> pretending you don't hold these beliefs just to be an edgy counterculturalist
> "They only retake about half of that over the course of a century with the help fuckhuge armies of crusaders that periodically marched through enemy territory raping and killing Muslims so a Byzantine army could trail them and take over vacant cities"
> first crusade happens
> almsot all crusaders swear to return lands to empire
> fucking none of them do
> second and third crusades happen
> all gains made in the first crusade are lost
> fourth crusade happens
> catholicucks get scared of the Muslim big boys
> catholicucks jew out and decide to loot riches of Constantinople instead
> Europe has to deal with the Ottofucks for 400 years because of retarded crusaders chimping out
brilliant, pham
>>846168
>have the resources of the fucking richest part of Europe
>can't do shit because your government is so backstabbing and incompetent
>Crusaders will aid you in reconquering shit
>you don't help out at all
>literally equivalent to the dude that'll let another person change his flat tire but can't be fucked to learn to change it himself at all
>repeatedly need help because you're so shit and cowardly at battle
>constantly waste money on mercenaries that betray you at every major battle
>next time it happens: "Who woulda guessed???"
>don't pay denbts
>get fucked
>implying they would have been able to beat the Turks either way
>byzzieboos
lol
>>845910
They consolidated their territory instead of expanding beyond their limit like Justinian did. Would you rather last another few hundred? Or a few decades due to over-extension and lack of manpower to defend your gains?
>>846320
>Greece
>>richest part of europe
>"you don't help out at all"
literally false
>"don't pay denbts"
>"get fucked"
wew we're Yahwenetians and money is more important than not being backstabbing pussies, stupid goyim
>"implying they would have been able to beat the Turks either way"
you nigger the ottoman "homeland" was literally the capital of the rump state the Byzantines had left after the fourth crusade, which would never have been a problem if the Venetians hadn't gone "REEEEEEE MONEY"
>>846362
They "consolidated" instead of "expanding beyond their limit" but lost it at the same rate...something doesn't fit here.
>>846339
>what is the Plague of Justinian
>What are the Sasanian Wars
good meme friendo
>>846373
>Greece
>Bulgaria
>literally all of fucking Asia Minor; ASIA MINOR, which Republican Rome brought grain at twice the price from because it was so plentiful and relatively cheap
>not wealthy as fuck
Seriously
How did they help. Hint: Turning tail and running ALL the way back to Constantinople when you hear that an inferior force of Turks is in the vicinity doesn't count.
>men who risked their lives are fucking starving
>their boats are burnt by those who promised them payment
>THEY somehow come out as the sneaky merchants
If the Byzantines were afraid to engage an inferior force of Turks during the First Crusade, I don't see how they could have resisted the Turks for long no matter what.
>>846373
>north africa
>egypt
>levant
>anatolia
those are some of the richest region in the world that time, and the incompetent byzzies lost them all to the sandniggers, they only got themselves to blame
>>846339
>Battle of Firaz
>Desert rats vs Roman Empire, Sassanid Empire, and Christian Arabs
>15k vs 150k
>Low vs 100k casualties
>Decisive Muslim victory
Good lord Arabs were on a fucking role
>>846387
>Arabs are invincible and invulnerable to diseases, truly G_d's Chosen People
Yep, Byzaboo delusions on display folks
>>846339
>Firaz
how
>drinking Yuenglings and shitposting about Byzantium
What am I doing with my life.
>>846411
Greeks
>>846339
>Firaz
Jesus the Byzantines and Persians both knew they were in trouble and worked together.
>>846387
Arabs were stuck in a fucking desert where disease can't easily spread and the two empires were fucking ravaged by a string of bullshit, but I'm sure that doesn't matter at all :^)
>>846411
allah willst it
>>846488
It doesn't fucking matter when despite all the BS the Roman Empire and the Persian Empire went through, they BOTH outnumbered the Arabs 90% of the time, sometimes up to 10 (!) to 1.
>>846600
>taking ancient history bodycount at face value
>>843572
>1870
>>843419
/his/ is full of plebs who cannot grasp the sophistication, economic development and military ingenuity of Byzantium who refused to die despite all it had going against her.
>M-MUH MASSACRE OF THE LATINS!
The Latins had started amassing economic power, enough that they openly began to defy both the Emperor and the Byzantine laws/customs. You people carry on about how you want to kick the Turks out of Constantinople, but think of how the Greeks must have felt, having all these vulgar and offensive Venetians, Pisans, and Genoese in their city that acted as though everyone should bow down to them and that their economic prosperity (due only to the recent impotence of the Byzantines due to sustained conflicts with the Arabs/Seljuks) allowed them to do as they pleased.
The way the Latins were carrying about was an affront to the sovereignty of the Roman Emperors. Already, the Emperor had had to act against either the Pisans or Venetians because they had rioted, or because they had been found engaging in corruption and sabotage. By the time the massacre happened, many of the Latins were throwing their weight around the Imperial Court, trying to force the Emperor to adopt pro-Venetian/Genoese/Pisan edicts at the expense of the native Greeks.
Massacre of the Latins: JUSTIFIED
Sack of Constantinople: You're really telling me the destruction of building, books, and objects from Classical Antiquity was justified?
>>846794
Massacre of the Latins is nothing more than an action against Liberalism. Byzantines had every right to push against Venetian free trade policies.
Completely justified.
>>846762
>sophistication, economic development and military ingenuity
I'd appreciate these things a lot more if it didn't also come with gaudy dresses, man jewelry, and all the cool Latin names and words replaced with -ioi and shit. For all the supposedly cool things Byzfags go on about, the emperor is still wearing a dress.
Not robes, a fucking dress.
>>846858
>not liking the -ioi
Unrefined barbarian.
>>846870
>defiling the glory of >us and >ii with Greek homosexuality
>>843493
>if the territories won in the First Crusade had been given back to the Emperor (as had been agreed)
And maybe if Alexios I hadn't been a complete fucking idiot they would have gotten their territories
>tries to force latin Christians from Western europe to swear oaths of fealty to him upon arrival
>makes a peace behind their back and only begrudgingly gives them a token share of the ransom
>fucking abandons his part of the oath (military support) during the siege of antioch
Fuck off byzaboo, the Latin states in the Levant were a complete accident that happened only because of Byzantine incompetence (much like the First Crusade in general).
>>846703
>Kingdom of Prussia
>Germany
>>843472
>mehmet II actually improved the place
Shit argument. Without the turks, it would have never fallen into decay. BR was literally at its height after the Macedon's right when the Turks came.
>>846878
latin's gay as hell m8
>bigus dickus
i rest my case
>>843419
"There exists another history, more absurd [ridicule] than the history of Rome since the time of Tacitus: it is the history of Byzantium. This worthless collection contains nothing but declamations and miracles. It is a disgrace to the human mind."
-Voltaire
>>847497
he cant keep getting away with this
>>846762
>crash the world's greatest empire, cleave closely to a scheming, destructive religion
SOPHISTICATED
>lords of the land betray their own people and allow trade to be taken over by foreigners
ECONOMICALLY DEVELOPED
>hire foreign (and even heathen) mercenaries, often of the same group that you're fighting against
>get betrayed constantly
>do it all over again
MILITARILY INGENIOUS
>>846794
Yep, sure justifies the massacre of thousands of laborers, tradesmen, shop owners, etc. You really think there were 80,000 hyperwealthy greedy merchants influencing the empire?
And I don't mind Turkish Constantinople at all, at least it isn't a disgrace to the world.
>>846808
>free trade
>bad
t. authoritarian
>>846870
Literally the Vietnamese of European languages.
>>847497
HE ACTUALLY SAID IT
I hate him for >holy >roman >empire, but that's based.
>>843471
The HRE was pretty centralised up until Fredrick II decided he was too occupied with Italian politics and building geometrical castles so he just signed the Statutum in Favorem principem, which basically conceded a huge amount of autonomy to the princes of Germany. Before that, the empire was way more of an actual power, actually being the strongest political entity of Western Europe, seeing as France was exactly as you described the Holy Roman Empire.
>>846870
Are youthat greek furfag who used to spam /pol/ with gay furry porn?
>>845584
There is more chane of greece getting annexed vy turkey than the other way round.
>>847497
Three bantz never stop
>>847610
Do you know the chronicle that about the fall of Constantinople the scribe Phrantzes has left us to refresh the memory of the hypocrites?
Its inhabitants who at daybreak, while Mehmet II is shelling Theodosius’ walls, take refuge in the cathedral of St. Sophia and here start to sing psalms. To invoke divine mercy. The patriarch who by candlelight celebrates his last Mass and in order to lessen the panic thunders:
“Fear not, my brothers and sisters! Tomorrow you’ll be in the Kingdom of Heaven and your names will survive till the end of time!”.
The Ottoman troops who beating their drums step over the breaches in the fallen walls, burst into the cathedral and behead newborn babies.
They amuse themselves by snuffing out the candles with their little severed heads... It lasted from the dawn to the afternoon that massacre. It abated only when the Grand Vizier mounted the pulpit of St. Sophia and said to the slaughterers:
“Rest. Now this temple belongs to Allah”
Meanwhile the city burns, the soldiery crucify and hang and impale, the Janissaries rape and butcher the nuns (four thousand in a few hours) or put the survivors in chains to sell them at the market of Ankara. And the servants prepare the Victory Feast.
The feast during which (in defiance of the Prophet) Mehmet II got drunk on the wines of Cyprus and, having a liking for young boys, sent for the firstborn of the Greek Orthodox Grand Duke Notaras. A fourteen year-old adolescent known for his beauty. In front of everyone he raped him, and after the rape he sent for his family. In front of him he beheaded them. One by one. He also had all the altars destroyed, all the bells melted down, all the churches turned into mosques or bazaars.
Oh, yes. That’s how Constantinople became Istanbul.
>>847497
Why should Voltaire's commentary on the Eastern Roman Empire be of any value? Enlightenment-era historians tried to defame all other eras aside from their own and that of Classical Antiquity, creating many 'myths' that persist to the modern day concerning the Middle Ages.
Fuck Voltaire: let him stick to his philosophy, rather than dabbling in history.
>>846762
>military ingenuity of Byzantium
>the guys who ended it had fucking cannons.
>>847610
>And I don't mind Turkish Constantinople at all
You fucking cuck. Even in its decayed and depopulated state, it was still an impressive city, more so than any other European or even Islamic city at the time. When the Turks took it over, they turned it into a fucking slum, since they had destroyed most buildings save for the Hagia Sophia, parts of the Imperial residences, and the walls.
Literally turned the greatest city in the world at the time into a filthy shit-filled slum, and foreign observers to Constantinople would comment that the city itself became dingy and sleazy and unimpressive, and its only 'bustling' parts being the slave market near the harbor.
Also, you're an idiot.
>>848250
>Even in its decayed and depopulated state, it was still an impressive city, more so than any other European
Kek, Italians had better cities by the time.
Also
>Turks occupy Constantinople and make it a capital.
>Let's make it shit guys!
Not to mention it was LE DECADENT OPULENT DEN OF ORIENTAL WEALTH AND DELIGHTS first before the 1700's and the decline made it into "The filthy oriental slave market."
>>843572
>germany has never won a war
>saxons, angles, normans conquer britain
>charlemagne and the franks fuck shit up
>visigoths sack rome
>anglo saxons are germanic
>>848262
Why do you hate the Eastern Romans so much, Anon? Did they do something to you?
/his/ are mudslime sympathisers
>>848292
Orthodoxs are Muslim light.
>>848292
Kek, you retards come up to every thread regarding Muslims and shitpost it to the ground with Quran verses taken literally and with no context, plus sourceless claims
Then when people have the GALL to actually argue against your points, you call this place reddit and a muslim hugbox
the fucking banter in this thread
>>848231
>believing a Greek
I suppose you believe Procopius as well, that Justinian was a disembodied demon head and that Theodora prostituted herself in the palace?
At least as slaves the Byzantines did useful work farming and building, instead of praying, destroying their own icons, and burning ancient books all day.
>>848250
>filthy slum
>capital of the only empire that almost broke Europe
k. Top logic there cupcake
>>848286
He doesn't hate Eastern Romans at all, that was like 800 years before the events we're discussing.
>>848347
>>848598
Truth. Orthodoxy honestly wouldn't be as fucked as it is if it hadn't had been for emperors from, say, Anatolia and Armenia fucking it up with their spirituality up until then; or Ottoman influence from then. Might as well have been Muslims.
>>846402
baby's first troll
>>848648
>k. Top logic there cupcake
Why don't you read contemporary accounts of Venetian and English diplomats to Constantinople under Turkish rule, then? It was a shithole.
>the.. empire that almost broke Europe
OH, you mean how they only continued to be a threat for less than a century later until the discovery of the New World rendered them forever impotent and unimportant?
>>843419
Because its popular and /his/ is full of contrarian /pol/ shitposters
>>848673
As if Greece wasn't a shithole? Or a Constantinople ruled by Greeks wouldn't be a shithole? Just look at the state of Greece now, holy fuck.
Ah yes, rendered so impotent and unimportant that the largest cavalry charge known to history was required to stop it from taking the capital of the Holy Roman Empire in 1683, 230 years after. That impotent and unimportant.
>>848673
I'd like to see how much MORE of a slum London and Paris were in comparison. Venice doesn't count because it's pretty cool, and only merchants and skilled workers lived on that dank little lagoon-island. The land surrounding it, though? Marsh shacks.
>>848249
>Be Crusaders
>Can't do engineering and diplomacy
>Get Fucked
>Be Arabs
>Lacks the naval capacity to take Constantinople again and again
>Get fucked
>Be Bulgars
>Can't fund non plunder armies
>Get fucked
>But muh City state had no cannons!
This is like asking why doesn't the Gambia have a fleet of F-14s Byzantium was ruined after 1347.
>>847610
>Crash the empire
>Implying Heraclius didn't save it from the Sassanid threat
Wew lad.
>>lords of the land betray their own people and allow trade to be taken over by foreigners
The nobles of Europe were stunned at the sheer amount of wealth the Byzantines had to throw around, and how they could actually tax their people and nobles. Even after the Fourth Crusade Byzantium had a standing professional army of 20,000 men.
>>hire foreign (and even heathen) mercenaries, often of the same group that you're fighting against
>get betrayed constantly
>do it all over again
>implying this didn't happen in Western Europe
>Implying Italian armies weren't literally nothing but mercenary troops that defected the instant someone offered them more cash
>Implying the >H>R>E and France had loyal troops, instead of a clique of patrons the king had to suck off to get their peasant levies
>>849480
Congrats, so the guys who ended Byzantium had military innovation.
You do know how byzantium fell right? Turks with artillery, siege engineers, and a very gutsy and angry Sultan who dragged his fleet overland?
>>849561
That doesn't undermine my point.
To use a quick and dirty analogy, Britain had its heyday in the sun before the Germans surpassed them following the Second Industrial Revolution, where in which Britain only kept up economically and in terms of industrial through the captured markets of its empire.
That doesn't mean Britain was never innovative.
>>849634
I'm pretty sure his point is that they weren't especially ingenious, it's nothing to point out or celebrate. With the resources they had at their disposal for most of their existence they should've been able to wreck everybody around. It was due to their utter incompetence and utter lack of everything that one dude lauded that led to their doom.
>>849510
And with all those resources almost no gains were made after Heraclius.
And yet with a 20,000 man standing army they couldn't defeat a small state with a population that hated their rulers, and those rulers' religion and culture? Sounds like ultra incompetence to me.
Italians were often mercenaries and many other mercenaries were used, yes, but no power has such a deplorable track record of hiring mercenaries who immediately turn around to fuck their shit up.
>>843861
They may not have gotten control of Jerusalem, but Jerusalem sure got control of them.
>>849885
>And with all those resources almost no gains were made after Heraclius.
>Armenia, the Balkans, Lower Italy, Crimea, Lebanon, Upper Syria, Mesopotamia
>And yet with a 20,000 man standing army they couldn't defeat a small state with a population that hated their rulers, and those rulers' religion and culture? Sounds like ultra incompetence to me.
I like how you are continently ignoring the masses of Turcomen states and Ghazis brought in by the Mongols requiring vast amounts of manpower to hold down. Which was true, considering when Michael VIII pulled the troops to taking Greece back, the Turks were able to overrun Anatolia in the next 50 years. (Admittedly Charles of Anjou played a role in exhausting the state enough)
>Italians were often mercenaries and many other mercenaries were used, yes, but no power has such a deplorable track record of hiring mercenaries who immediately turn around to fuck their shit up.
I'm calling that into question. Really the only time I can think of mercenary desertion in Byzantium prior to the Palaiogoi was Manzikert. And after then, the Catalan Company. Unless you count the Crusaders as mercs, but that would be asinine.
>>850304
Not him, but
>gains
>lower Italy
>Crimea
>Mesopotamia
Lower Italy was kept by the empire after the Muslim conquests, they just continued to lose it with barely any gains back. Crimea was never owned, only the Crimean chersonese, and I don't know where you're getting Mesopotamia from.
Those amendments and the rest of the areas you mentioned are definitely almost no gains when compared to how much was lost, and how powerful the Byzantines were at times compared to their rivals.
>>843707
Blame Commodus for that. The never say die attitude was possible when the people could be rallied up into a coherent military in a few weeks. The Byzantines could not manage that. They were almost constantly raided on both borders for centuries. A period of time passed where there were Islamic raids every single year, along with Bulgar/ Slavic raids. They didn't have the breadbasket they needed after the Arabs took Egypt. Sicily worked to feed Rome, but it couldn't feed a starving, looted Anatolia. The very brief periods of growth were all give and take. The sitting Emperor would have be competent enough to strike peace, or lucky enough to have one enemy left predisposed, lucky enough to be legitimate by succession or religious belief, something that got harder and harder after Phocus, Live in a time without too much religious discord, have loyal palace officials, have a loyal Tagma, Loyal Theme Commanders, an efficient tax structure (Something that was very difficult to do when assets were being dragged off to Syria every third year) and the personal will to use them.
I still think the latest it could have been saved was Justinian. If he had taken the deal to be freely given southern Italy, or even just Sicily, he could have spent the rest of the time Consolidating, and perhaps, by some random chance, whatever catastrophe occurred to cool the land enough to unleash the plague, or whichever Copt looked under a rock and went to sleep the next day with buboes may not have happened. If he had kept Africa and Sicily without wasting time fighting the Goths, Belisarius could have been put to some better use. Consolidating Africa, perhaps. Perhaps a more consolidated Byzantium with Germanis (Justinian's Nephew and heir apparent) ruling it could have withstood the plague enough to stop the needless ''Last War'' and kept Persia strong enough to crush the Arabs when they rose.
The Persians would have remained, but perhaps it would have been better.
>>850485
Well done for conveniently not addressing Armenia and the Balkans, legitimate territorial gains all the way from Mellitene to Dubrovnik.
>>849510
>Heraclius saved the Empire from the Persians
This meme needs to die.
Persians were never interest in conquering the European areas of the ERE. They were interested in kicking the Romans out of Asia and regain rightful Achaemenid clay.
Heraclius saved the richest provinces of the Empire from the Persians, only to lose them all to the Arabs.
Imagine how fucking horrifying it must have been for him to see his greatest accomplishment be BTFO by some desert rats.
In hindsight, I think it would have been better for the Romans if the Persians had won.
>>851275
The Arabs would have swept through even faster if the Persians won.
Literally all their richest provinces would have been within striking point of freshly unified Arabia. Meanwhile, the Persians would be stuck dealing with consolidating rule over these restless provinces AND dealing with the Gokturks putting pressure in the Northeast.
It would collapse like a house of cards given the Persians can't bunker down past the Zagros like the Byzantines could the Tarsus.
>>850707
>Armenia
Byzantine Empire never owned Armenia.
>Balkans
They fully had the Balkans when they lost their shit in the Muslim conquests. Losing the entire Balkans and then regaining them by simply subduing local lords instead of replacing them with loyal Greeks, then losing it all a century later, doesn't really count.
>>851575
Honestly curious, I don't know any Persian geopolitics, how come the Zagros isn't so defensible and was never a border between states?
>>851275
>rightful Achaemenid clay
when it ain't your clay for almost a thousand years I would hardly say it's rightful
>>848271
>Germanic = German
Retard.
>>852051
>Honestly curious, I don't know any Persian geopolitics, how come the Zagros isn't so defensible and was never a border between states?
Its not that the Zagros isn't particularly defensible from the West side, its that the Sassanid capital and administration was based in Ctesiphon- near Baghdad, in Southern Iraq. But the Zagros does have plenty of passes and gaps in between it that allow armies to exploit it.
To get to the Roman capital, the Arabs needed to take Egypt, then the Levant, then Anatolia, and then cross the Bosphorus and besiege Constantinople. To get to Ctesiphon, they just needed to attack north and they'd decapitate the Sassanids.
I don't know who is worse: byzantiboos or turkshits
can I hate both?
>>852290
After Ctesiphon was sacked numerous times under Arsacid rule, why the fuck did nobody think of moving the capital behind the Zagros?
Why was it even in Mesopotamia in the first place? As far as I'm aware, it was never Persian speaking.
>>852349
I honestly have no idea. The only reasonable guess would be that Mesopotamia was a filthy rich crownland. It had 7 million people alone in 300 AD (12 million by 600) and make up about 1/4 of the state taxes and a great deal of their crops.
>>844951
Their merchants burned a large section of Constantinople.
>>845565
The bureaucracy in Constantinople kept the economy going, the Latin merchants were an extra. The vast majority of the money in the Byzantine treasury came from taxes. When the Latins sacked Constantinople, they dismantled the sensitive Byzantine economy and imposed feudalism, which ruined Greece. The Latins did not trust the Byzantine bureaucracy, and this is why the Latin Empire was constantly in debt. The Nicaeans, meanwhile, were able to support an army of 20,000 men without much issue. They kept back the Turks, and the Latins, and were eventually able to recover Greece. The recovery of Greece and Constantinople ruined the Nicaean economy because the Latins had ruined the land and imposed feudalism. Supporting Greece and Constantinople sapped Byzantine power to the point were the Turks were able to overrun Anatolia and the Serbs were able to overrun the Balkans. Even with Anatolia and Constantinople, supporting Greece was so draining that the Byzantines were unable to complete the reconquest of Latin Greece.
Because the vast majority of people on this board are catholics, have germanic ancestry, or are otherwise /pol/fags.
>>852134
>germanics aren't german
hello untermensch
>>855078
I am pretty sure that a majority is non Catholic, people just hate Byzanboos
Like on Paradox forums where we would always see "Muh Italy belonged to Byzantium 45 minutes so it should be de jure byzantium! Who cares if every independent Italian state gets annexed after 45 seconds?"
>>855087
Just look at all these Germans!
>>848250
More than willing to bet that these foreign observers were Western/Christian who had an axe to grind...
>>849885
>no power has such a deplorable track record of hiring mercenaries who immediately turn around to fuck their shit up.
Honestly that's so incredibly true. Reading Runciman's History of the Crusades you could make a drinking game for the first 30 or so pages detailing how Byzantium fucked itself over.
>>843512
lol i remember that thread. if it's you, you're a fucking pleb, m8.
flag does look okayish now tough, average job
>>843838
Glorioso ; ;
>>845784
How about that Ravenna fell in 476 AD you fuck
I guess it's fitting that the Orban was created, and sold to Mehmed II, by a german
>>845543
>Serb-tier
I beg your pardon?
This thread...
>Implying European and Muslim kingdoms weren't equally, or even more corrupt
>Implying the fact that there were succession wars and civil wars in the ERE is because of the Greeks and not the retard Romans that built that system
>Implying Constantinople, even under extreme poverty wasn't a completely beautiful city that was better than Venice, that only funded the rich areas and all other places were shit
>Implying the Byzantines weren't great researchers and scientists and their technologies weren't known because they were secretive as fuck
>Implying the Arabs didn't use shock tactics against the weakened Sassanids and the Romans that had been plagued by disease and war
>Implying the Yahwehnetians didn't deserve their shit kicked in for burning down parts of Constantinople and upsetting the local civilians
>Implying that the ERE didn't fight wars in almost all its fronts and was a desired location by most
>Implying Crusaders dindu nuffin
>Implying the horsenigger turks didn't just zerg like the mongorians and that the battle of Manzikert was military genius of the Turks
>Implying the rest of Europe didn't have a hard time against the muslims "b-but muh Iberian Muslims", those were weakened shitholes that hadn't been in power ever since the abbasids, yet it still took them 700 years
>Implying the ERE even after all of that managed to be an economical powerhouse
>Implying overwhelming force and underhanded tactics weren't needed to take Constantinople
>Implying European lords were "honorable"
>Implying Catholicuck heretics dindu nuffin
>Implying based Heraclius wasn't GOAT
>Implying the ERE couldn't have gotten cannons because they were backwards assholes
>Implying the ERE wasn't centralized
>Implying Justinian and his dream wasn't based
>Implying the last Emperor's death wasn't honorable
>Implying you wouldn't fight for the ERE
>Implying you would fight for any other pleb kangdom
The reason the Roman Empire fell, was because of Augustus.
>>858352
heraclius is a cuck though, after hearing news of yarmouk he fled back to constantinople like a little bitch and cried about it till he died
>>852084
yeah, tell that to the jews
>>858352
>>Implying the Byzantines weren't great researchers and scientists and their technologies weren't known because they were secretive as fuck
>Yeah I know they were a highly literate society with access to all of the Classical world's greatest scientific and philosophical texts, but trust me they just didn't write down any of their super science like the Catholics or Muslims did because they were a super secret club
>>858552
After, you know, undertaking an immensely daring campaign to fight off a vastly superior army, using literally everything the Byzantines had, knowing if he failed that the Empire would end. It is immensely likely by the time he died he had a mental disorder, PTSD or Anxiety from decades of utterly miserable, terrifying war, dreading the horsemen in the distance that would describe the failure of one detachment, and spell the end.
His balls were bigger than the entire Persian Empire, and after years of fighting, he was finally victorious. He got three years of peace, and then was overwhelmed by pure bad luck and by a completely inexplicable enemy.
>>843572
Israeli history is literally getting curb stomped until the modern era.
>>858919
So he wasn't a cuck. Just a bitch.
>>843460
REMOVE VENETIAN
>>843419
They're both shit, but it's their fanbases that are intolerable.
>>843454
The what?
>>861726
>Eastern
>""Roman""
>Empire
>>861726
>"""dank"""
>forced
>meme
>>843419
I remember when /his/ started it was nothing but Byzantium posts.
How times change.
>>862034
It's literally the /v/ syndrome
>thing gets popular on a board
>board then hates it
>>862045
/v/ syndrome is seeing something funny/interesting then spamming it ad infinitum (thus turning it into a meme) until it starts being loathed even by those who found it funny/interesting once.
>>862057
nah that's /tv/ syndrome
>>858919
>completely inexplicable enemy
>treat heretics so badly that they'd rather be ruled by heathens
>"how could I have ever anticipated this"
>>862066
But /tv/ still find baneposting funny.
>>843493
Butthurt Orthodox detected. On the losing side of history since the schism.
