Was the SS any good as a fighting force or just murderers in uniform?
SS tank division were pretty based afaik, such as das reich and so on
i don't know about infantry divisions
>>773815
>murderers in uniform
i think thats what the allies thought, thats why they would never take ss prisoners
>>773822
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEkPEj6eOH4
>>773815
The first divisions were elite, the rest were drafted or volunteers from other nations, like Estonia, Scandinavia and the Balkans
It worked like a regular army except for the fact they still relied on the Wehrmacht for supplies
And for the second question, aren't all soldiers?
>>773815
numerous wehrmacht commanders were very skeptical when they had SS units appointed to their command but quickly changed their minds.
usually they were seen as loyal, effective and extremely resilient morally.
they were also described as too reckless often though
>>773815
They're honestly trash, I don't like they're choreography and they have a HORRID dance manager.
Concentrate the juice of love was pretty good though.
Its just a knockoff of NKVD's hit single Not a step back from your heart though.
>>773815
They're basically the SA on steroids: the armed thugs of the Nazi Party, fanatical in its doctrine, and armed with shiny weapons like tanks.
Some of the divisions were excellent due to their fanatical offensive spirit (they suffered very high casualties because they kept attacking when normal divisions would have stopped). LSAAH, Totenkopf, Der Furher, Wiking, Das Reich, Germania were the cream of the crop. The rest formed later in the war (1944+) were mainly scraping the bottom of the barrel of concentration camp guards and police who were not experienced or fully trained for warfare on the Eastern front.
Working for all of them though was that Hitler made sure they all received the best and up to date equipment. While other, experienced German panzer divisions were lacing replacements in mapower and only receiving very few panzer IV's, here come new SS Panzer divisions with Tigers and Panthers, and in many cases, completely green troops.
>>773866
basically this
from what I understand the only difference between them and average Heer soldiers was their superior weapons and extreme dedication
They sapped some of the fighting power of the Wehrmacht, so their reputation as fierce units also stemmed somewhat from their technological superiority. In the case of the 12th SS, much of this equipment was wasted on inexperienced troops who routinely made terrible counterattacks in Normandy, often just using full frontal charge tactics.
In an ideal Wehrmacht, units like the Grossdeutschland would've gotten #1 priority.
>>773908
>full frontal charge tactics
They were trying to push the allies back into the sea, whats wrong with this? Especially against what were seen as less experienced troops. I would have done the same. Or feigned retreat then counter attack Blitz the flanks
Time for the truth.
The Waffen-SS were absolutely shit at the beginning. They had few proper military educated officers and far too idealistic in their ideology. They went into the war woefully under prepared and overconfident. Literally they rushed Poles defenses like they were following human wave doctrine, their officers even wore their stupid fucking black uniforms into battle. Many were killed, and the Waffen-SS was embarrassed.
The Heer considered them to be liability to them and had them leashed up for the first years of the war. This meme about the Waffen-SS getting ALL the best equipment has to stop. In reality the Heer thought they were fucking asshats and repeatedly armed them with old equipment to keep them leashed to the superior armed Heer units they were attached to.
It wasn't until Winter 1941 when they really proved themselves to the army. When they were told to do something, they did it. They did not waver in spite of everything. Das Reich alone was used as meat shields while the Heer dug in behind them and as a result 60 percent of their division was wiped out.
Their dedication was noticed and after they were refitted, the Heer took their chains off, permitted proper equipment for them and they started serving as a proper fighting force.
As for Elite status, only Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Totenkopf were considered elite. The rest were foreigners or Germans drafted into the Waffen-SS.
And yes, they could be absolute fuckers to their enemies, but there were some noted examples that contradict the image of uniform loyalty to Hitler and the regular SS. Sepp Dietrich offered loyalty to Rommel if Hitler was to be killed and banned Himmler from interfering with his division, Paul Hausser kept his troops on the front line so that they weren't caught up in in the Einsatzgruppen squads, Wilhelm Bittrich assisted Albert Speer in countermanding Hitler's Nero Decree.
Cunts, yes. But not total cunts. That's reserved for the Allgemeine-SS
>>774026
>but there were some noted examples that contradict the image of uniform loyalty to Hitler and the regular SS. Sepp Dietrich offered loyalty to Rommel if Hitler was to be killed and banned Himmler from interfering with his division, Paul Hausser kept his troops on the front line so that they weren't caught up in in the Einsatzgruppen squads, Wilhelm Bittrich assisted Albert Speer in countermanding Hitler's Nero Decree.
That seems like an act by some generals with personal political motive, rather than the loyalty of the whole division. Unless, of course, the aforementioned generals are meant to wholly represent their units.
>>774026
One of the more interesting things produced by the Waffen-SS was the brotherhood between ranks. The onlly difference between an officer and a soldier was one man commanded, the other man followed. The useage of 'Herr' was banned from use in the unit. The soldier would only use the officer's rank, surname or both.
>>774065
Just a couple of examples of flexible in loyalty off the top of my head. There is this image of the Waffen-SS being absolutely loyal to the Party when it just was not the case. The Wannsee Conference occurred partly because the Waffen-SS was growing steadily pissed off they were being co opted into aiding the Einsatzgruppen units.
>>774026
>That's reserved for the Allgemeine-SS
...go on
>>774118
The Allgemeine-SS (General SS) were the overall SS. They were led by Himmler, Heydrich and Ernst Kaltenbrunner. They were in charge of policing the Reich through various departments, from the regular police to the Gestapo. Bureaucrats to the core, they loved to play their little games safely behind the front and were the ones who developed the Einsatzgruppen units, plotted out the extermination program at Wansee and converted the concentration camps into the ones depicted today.
One of the more defining characteristics to the Allgemeine-SS was how closely they acted like teen girls. They formed cliques, rivalry, spread rumors about their associates, carved power from wherever and whoever they could get it from. An example time.
In the early days of the Nazis, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, a member of the Austrian Nazis discovered and mentored a young Adolf Eichmann. When the Anclusluss happened, the head of the Reich Main Security Office Reinhard Heydrich took a real shining on his new Austrian compatriot and with Himmler's help, pulled Eichmann out of Kaltenbrunner's grip and put him into the Heydrichian circle. Kaltenbrunner never forgot about it and while playing a dumb drunk bided his time, he gathered up SS men who were overlooked by Heydrich and created his own circle. Then he had a stroke of good luck and met Martin Bormann, who hated Himmler and was the closest man to Hitler An Alliance between them was on.
When Heydrich took a suicide stroll in an open top Mercedes, Himmler took over and realized it was hard work, so he assigned Kaltenbrunner to the role instead. Kaltenbrunner, now the head of the RSHA and friends with Bormann, destroyed and swallowed Heydrich's circle, turned Himmler into a puppet and purely out of spite, revealed Eichmann had Jewish mistresses and stalled his career.
By the end of the war Himmler betrayed Hitler, he was more terrified of Kaltenbrunner then Hitler or even surrendering to the Allies.
>>774180
Anchluss*
>>774180
>One of the more defining characteristics to the Allgemeine-SS was how closely they acted like teen girls. They formed cliques, rivalry, spread rumors about their associates, carved power from wherever and whoever they could get it from. An example time.
This was the hallmark of all nazi power though, internecine struggle for power / access to hitler.
>>774227
Very true, my point is the line begins to blur between the party and the SS whereas the Waffen-SS was influenced by the army.
Hitler was clearly a Mean Girl
>>773815
>Was the SS any good as a fighting force
those were the waffen-ss which were an elite force
Totenkoph = fear, than death.i would have wanted to have those guys on my side
>>774343
wew
Early on they were looked down by the regular armed forces, got second rate equipment - usually captured stuff like Czechoslovak light machine guns - and were regarded mostly as enthusiastic amateurs at best, and meddling military nobodies at worst. With time several divisions turned this completely and became elite forces with priority supplies of new tanks.
>>774227
It's not just a Nazi thing though. It was pretty much the same at the totalitarian courts of Baroque monarchies.
They were rather successful. What exactly constitutes a murderer in uniform? If the act of murder is simply deliberate killing, aren't all soldiers murderers?
>>774227
It could very well be the unavoidable characteristic of all totalitarian models.
>>775340
to a certain extent, but nazi power was consciously based around this kind of system
it was hitlers style
>>775336
Not all soldiers go out to villages for the sole purpose of killing everyone there.
>>773815
(Waffen) SS divisions like the Wiking had lots of experienced guerilla soldiers that had a burning hatred for commies and some sort of ideological reasons.
People like Larry Thorne (Lauri Törni) fought against the commies under three flags. (Finland, Nazi-Germany and later under American flag in Vietnam)
>>773948
Because that's fucking awful tactics and strategy, even if it worked it would still inflict extremely heavy casualties on the attacker which is never ideal no matter how many defenders you kill.
Frontal assaults hit the enemy where they're the most concentrated, the most ready for battle, and the easiest to reinforce. There's a reason every single successful and "good" strategy revolves around avoiding direct confrontation and hitting the enemy where they're weakest.
Fighting the enemy on his terms is never a smart idea no matter how many advantages you have yourself. At Elsenborn Ridge 56,000 Germans attacked 28,000 Americans supported by two artillery sections. Much of the US force was made up of completely green soldiers who had never seen combat before. The Germans suffered 50-80% casualties against them as they attacked head on in literal mass wave tactics, and were cut down repeatedly. They actually achieved breakthroughs of the US line, but they were quickly surrounded and destroyed deeper in because they broke through the lines where they were the strongest and most supported by external forces, where the flanks were covered on all sides.
>>773815
What the fuck are you on about? How are murderers any better or worse in terms of fighting?
>>773850
Jewish song writers wrote both songs anyway.
Shh. Don't tell /pol/
>>773841
>And for the second question, aren't all soldiers?
deep, brah
>>773841
>And for the second question, aren't all soldiers?
dude thats like so deep bro! *smokes weed
So, why did Göring get his little panzer division to play with? Was it just a power play for him, so he has loyal troops or wast it just because panzers were sort of cool?
>>775729
Because he was a giant manchild.
Who had the best generals during WW2? Obviously Manstein was good but how did the rest of the generals rate?
>>775774
I don't care about the meme, Rommel was a damn good general. He kept morale up and fought a formidable enemy. Guderian was also a fucking Genius with his invasion of France. Patton was great too, tactics wise anyway. Russia is retarded and you don't know about Jap generals for a reason. Overall, Germany probably did, and then the US.
>>775729
Because he was a Nazi party bigshot. If the Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, who also happens to be the minister of Aviation, the President of the Reichstag, and the Vice-Chancellor of Germany says that the Luftwaffe totally needs a panzer division, then the Luftwaffe gets a panzer division.
>>775888
Come on now, no mention of good ol' Zhukov?
>>775729
He got a Panzer division because the Luftwaffe was bleeding planes and had too many support personal doing nothing. So they were retrained and put to work in the Heer.
>>775888
>and you don't know about Jap generals for a reason
Yamashita was both an impressive general and an interesting figure. While accentuated by British mistakes, he defeated British forces three times his numbers in Singapore, and was still holding out in the Phillippines when the war ended in spite of severe qualtiative inferiority. He actively tried to win the favor of the Filipinos, complimented US rule, and actively tried to prevent the murder of civilians in Manila (waiting a day for the soldiers to clean up before the entering the city when he entered to prevent a Nanking, and evacuating the city as he retreated, though the Navy immediately reoccupied the city). He was later removed from command for being too lenient with the Filipinos.
Of all the generals tried in War Crimes trials, his was also the most contentious because he and the defense conclusively proved that he a) didn't know about many of the atrocities that happened b) tried to stop all the ones he knew about from happening c) wasn't capable of stopping it in the first place, such that a Justice of the US Supreme Court spoke out in his favor.
Let's say you're a wehrmacht officer. I don't know, a major. You've been doing this your whole life. You were a private in WWI. Got promoted. Breveted a lieutenant or whatever the hell the equivalent is in German. After the war you want to stay in the army. You go to a war college. Graduate. Get a proper commission. Oversee a peace time company. This guy Hitler gets into office and kills all the politicians, whatever. Keep getting promoted.
Then all of a sudden this kid one day shows up. He doesn't have any training, he doesn't have any experience, but by gum he really loves Hitler, and his uncle's a member of the Nazi party so you get to show the young captain here the ropes.
SS in a nutshell.
Waffen SS had horrible casualties, particularly on the Eastern front. The reason for this was rather poor training, especially in the later stages of the war, and reckless fanaticism that cared little about the actual situation on the battlefield. Even divisions which were considered to be "elite" like the LSSAH or Das Reich suffered great losses, the LSSAH got BTFO several times in 1941 and 1942 and had to be pulled back several times from the front for refitting and reorganization, while Das Reich got absolutely annihilated at Kursk.
There was a reason why experienced Wehrmacht officers often though of Waffen SS as cannon fodder.
