Byzantine empire evolved into Ottoman empire and became greater than ever, so why would anyone ever dislike the Ottoman empire?
Disregard """"genocide"""" when giving your answer.
memes
>>735174
Because most people in the West associate Byzantines with "us" whereas the Ottomans are "them".
Basically it's a christian/white identity defense mechanism.
>>735199
>Greeks
>White
>>735207
>mfw I just realized I will never understand the rationale behind the term "white"
>>735207
Thats what I'm saying. Greeks and Turks are even on the whiteness scale. Western people identify with the Greeks because of 'muh cultural heritage' and 'muh democracy'. They see Turks/Muslims however as outside of that influence and don't associate with them on a personal level.
>>735217
It's nebulous and self serving, but when talking about turks, the greeks do temporarily enter the "us" group. Because shit man they might not be catholic but at least they aren't fuckin muslims.
Ottomans were bomb as fuck though. They only failed when they got a westaboo emperor that did away with the concubinage.
>>735225
Greeks were vaguely whiter before the great rapening
>>735236
This meme will never die, will it?
>>735174
I've learned that while I don't hate the sultanate, I hate the first Turkish tribes with all my heart. They ripped straight through the classical world and wiped out a special part of history. Naturally, some of that hate carries onto the successor.
I've gradually gained some respect for them over time and they aren't as bad as I originally thought. Still the Janissary stuff was basically genocide as it robbed the locals of the next generation. In the end, they were basically Muslim Greeks and had the same boundaries and shit as the Byzantines.
>>735217
White originally meant being from a Protestant majority religion. French were made white in America because so many French descendants converted to Protestantism after the Pope Pius VII made slavery haram.
>>735309
Protestant majority ethnicity*
>>735270
>They ripped straight through the classical world and wiped out a special part of history
Not really, you can blame the Arabs for that with the advent of Islam.
But can you blame the Arabs being Sandwiched between 2 empires? The Sassanids and Byzantines had been using Arab tribes to fight proxy wars for years. It was a full on Semite rebellion.
It was the Umayyads expanding into transoxonia that bridged the gap for the turks to cross into Anatolia.
>the Janissary stuff was basically genocide as it robbed the locals of the next generation
Not really, if anything it was an ingenious tactic to forge unity across ethnic/religious groups. Your children would reach the highest tiers of society, get the best education in the world, and in a lot of cases never forgot their homeland.
>>735174
>Byzantine empire evolved into Ottoman empire
Hello roachie.
What the fuck are you smoking? The turks overran the Roman-Greeks. They were never Byzantine citizens.
>>735380
>in a lot of cases never forgot their homeland.
not only that, they went back to their villages to govern and lived with their friends and family once more.
>>735380
>Not really, if anything it was an ingenious tactic to forge unity across ethnic/religious groups. Your children would reach the highest tiers of society, get the best education in the world, and in a lot of cases never forgot their homeland.
I love how you fags claim that slavery is the worst type of evil when it happened in America, but when European children were taken from their homeland and indoctrinated to a foreign religion to be slave-soldiers to fight against their former kinsmen, it was a good thing.
What fucking hypocrisy.
>>735396
Don't be such a racist. I bet you're going to tell me that the USA isn't the evolution of the Native American tribes.
>>735404
The descendants of slaves were treated as an underclass because of the color of their skin.
Ottoman slavery wasn't race based or perpetual.
>>735380
Yes, Arabic Nationalism was the real end of it; however the Turks had their own part. I'm speaking more of Anatolia, as it was the heartland of the first Christians. Egypt and the Levant were great losses however Anatolia may have been worse in some ways. I hate the Bedouin more but that's another discussion.
For the second, I'm going to use the modern definition which I know you will dislike.
[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
I think this counts for both D and E. While some of the children would reach the highest tiers of society they would lose their original identity. The chain of socialization was broken. They were no longer farmers or Byzantines: but janissaries in service of their sultan. It was ingenious and it worked well for them; as it destroyed the identity of those they conquered.
>>735404
slavery was really different in the Ottoman empire than it was in the west, slaves were elite citizens of the empire with more rights, power etc than anyone else including even the sultan at times, while slaves in the west were absolute trash and their lives didn't matter even a little.
>>735475
do you know how few people were made into janissaries? They weren't in the millions as you're presuming.
>>735174
Islam
Genocide
>>735500
You failed to even read the opening post
Why is religion even seriously a concern either?
>>735482
Ottomans had both 2bh, as the rest of the world.
People remembers the Janissaries because they were peculiar and a proto-standing army.
>>735511
The Ottomans didn't.
>>735510
I read it but Genocide still sucks.
Also Islam sucks and I'm sure Ataturk would agree.
>>735511
It's dumb as fuck to look at it in black and white terms anyways.
This is what happens when people get egotistical about empires they like. Their egos get bruised when people suggest that shit like the ottomans are less than perfect.
>>735521
>I read it but Genocide still sucks.
Everyone did it, it's not an excuse to hate the empire, besides it only happened in the last few years of a long empire.
>Also Islam sucks and I'm sure Ataturk would agree.
That's not the point, why is religion something seriously to care about? Ataturk hated all religion btw, he believed it's all bullshit for the weak to control the masses.
>>735521
>tfw 4chan would dismiss Ataturk's design for a secular Turkish Republic as a fedora tipping leftist plot
>>735498
20,000 meant more back then, especially overtime. It still relevant no matter the size lol
Are you the Bulgarian in Turkey? I feel I've argued this with you before.
>>735529
There is just nothing about Ottoman culture, dress, expansion, language, religion, architecture,art that I like. It seems like a rehash of pre existing things. Arab/Byzant mixed.
>>735551
Of course it was more back then but in the end they weren't given a shitty life, they just got the opportunity to become something great in life rather than a bumfuck farmer who with one bad season could lose everything, they did something that mattered with their lives and again I'll point out these posts >>735380 >>735402
>Are you the Bulgarian in Turkey? I feel I've argued this with you before.
No I don't know who that is
>>735562
>Arab
Persian.
>>735482
Western Slaves:
-Bought, not enslaved, from an African tribe defeated by its neighbor.
-Taken from dirt in the middle of nowhere to modern civilization
-Forced to pick cotton, as if that's the end of the world
Ottoman Slaves:
-Taken from loving families
-Indoctrinated into the invader's religion
-Forced to fight and kill other Europeans
>>735570
>Writing in Arabic meets letters
>>735527
>Getting egotistical about Ottomans
KEK. What a shit empire. They have literally nothing to be proud of.
WE WUZ ROMANS N SHIET
>>735577
Black people were practically tortured from birth to death back to back for generations until their freedom. The Ottoman slaves had more power than anyone and eliminated the sultans who wanted to abolish the system. Janissaries had fame and fortune beyond anyone's wildest dreams.
Would you rather be whipped day and night and forced to work, work as a bumfuck unimportant farmer no one cares about and will die due to one shitty season or chill and fuck bitches, get high and eat like kings?
If you picked any but the last one then you're a liar.
>>735568
I'm not arguing about the value of their lives. They definitely had more fulfillment in their lives in the robes of the sultan rather than the rags. I'm stating that they were removed from their adolescence (an important time of socialization into a culture) and this permanently changed them from what they would have been otherwise. They became Muslims obviously for one. They certainly had better lives.
>>735603
>Black people were practically tortured from birth to death back to back for generations until their freedom.
Working is torture for lazy nigs
>The Ottoman slaves had more power than anyone and eliminated the sultans who wanted to abolish the system. Janissaries had fame and fortune beyond anyone's wildest dreams.
They were brainwashed into a false religion and made to kill their kinsmen. That's a far worse fate than having to work on a farm.
>>735588
>Writing in arabic makes you arab
Sure thing familia.
>>735604
They don't lose their identity, they just gain more than they could otherwise.
>>735606
>false religion
What isn't a false religion?
>made to kill their kinsmen
Everyone was fighting each other anyway, the Balkans was always just a warzone until Ottomans conquered it all and made it peaceful. The Ottomans brought order to it and let the children of the people rule those areas, I think that's pretty damn stellar.
>>735603
>the only slaves in the Ottoman Empire were the Janissaries
I admit I'm not super knowledgeable about that history, but this seems like bullshit.
>>735631
>Everyone was fighting each other anyway, the Balkans was always just a warzone until Ottomans conquered it all and made it peaceful. The Ottomans brought order to it and let the children of the people rule those areas, I think that's pretty damn stellar.
Alright, so maybe then the modern day Turks should disband Turkey and let Greece take over their shitty country that funds ISIS, and the whole region will be more stable and not at risk of starting WW3 with Russia.
Peace is what you want, right roach?
>>735643
It is.
But non-jannissary kind of slaves weren't dissimilar to european slaves, even with people forced on galleys and shit.
>>735663
The Ottomans forced blacks to be menial slaves, while the Europeans were the Janissaries.
They treated blacks like animals while turning Europeans to fight other Europeans.
>>735646
this was one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life
>>735675
Exactly my point you imbecile. It's fucking retarded that you think "hey, everyone was happy being occupied by the roaches".
So if occupied people are so happy, go be occupied.
>>735678
Your argument makes no sense and you're putting words in my mouth.
>>735682
Your argument:
>Europeans like being occupied by Turks because that way they're at peace (except when the next war with the Holy Roman Empire or Russia was about to start)
My argument:
>Turks should be occupied by Europeans because that way they're at peace.
I'm calling out your hypocrisy. I literally cannot spell it out any simpler than that.
>>735697
that's STILL not what I said.
>>735631
What if the North Korean Secret Service whatever took your child and raised him to be a Juche Sasang adherent? Would he still be a member of your culture-- i.e. your successor? No-- he would be a Best Korean in heart. He may be richer or poorer, but still Korean, sans your culture/identity. An end to continuation.
I'm not saying the Janissaries were evil. A lot of other empires did the same. I'm just saying it ended a continuation of culture in some places. As I've said before, I respect the Ottomans in some places.
>>735672
Barbary Slave Trade and Zanj (Black Pagans) slave, fampai. You can look them up yourself.
Although one can say that Military slavery was way more represented, and some domestic slaves even rose to prominent position, with Sokollu Mehmet Pasha being de facto ruler of the Empire during Selim II's reign.
Incredibly enough, one could claim that the élite of the Empire was almost entirely comprised of slaves, if you include Eunuchs and Concubines.
>>735721
Those aren't Ottomans though, those vassals were practically independent with their own everything.
About the rest though yes I agree, I said that before too.
>>735716
Well, it's also worth saying that the Devsirme system started to decay during Murad III reign, being then completely abolished in 1683, when the enrolling became voluntary.
>>735725
The Zanj, however, were enslaved by turks, and weren't allowed to rise as high as the european slaves, although it was probably because they were pagans. They bore many similarities with european slaves.
>>735735
And by "european slaves", I meant "slaves in europe", as in colonial slaves.
Fuck it's late.
>>735174
What whloud happend if the ottomans where lead by this guy
>>735716
That's called state education and conscription.
>>735529
>>735532
>evolved
>>735646
What the fuck are you sperging about
>>735309
>mfw North Carolina french
>Sherman came to our house, had a nice dinner, and left while promising to pay us for the food his men took
>he actually did
>all because we didn't use slaves
Not converting worked out in the end.
>>735419
It is though.
its just western frustration
>>735646
Greeks can't even let teir economy work let alone fixing a troubled region like the middle east .
>>735674
Thats not true actually many black people were marines in the ottoman navy and they wete treated equally with the greeks who were also very prevalent in the ottoman navy .
>>735174
Ottoman Empire is hated because it was not inclusive. The entire empire literally worked for one city, one administration, one family. The %99 of the populace including Turkish peasants were ignored except for tax and military purposes.
It was centralized to the core, you could never rise above a certain point unless you were a descendant from Osman. The same happenedIf you were not included in the state bureaucracy.
On one hand its admirable. Ottomans created an administration an army that was only loyal to them and prevented the rise of another noble family, a dissenting general who had troops more loyal to him than to the Sultan. Compare it to the civil wars, dynastic changes, state coups of Roman and Byzantine Empires the Ottomans surpassed them very well until late 19th century. I think any Roman-Byzantine emperor would admire House of Osman on this.
But as I said before this also alienated almost every people who was living under it. Turks still have some kind of nationalist connection but they also forgot they were treated like shit.
>>737567
Good or bad they are our ancestors we can't change that as turks. I mean the only similarity people had when the republic was made was islam other than that 1/10 of the population were muslim slavs another 1/10 were kurds the rest were converted greeks, armenians and some turkmens which are descendants of the original turks who came to anatolia.
>>737567
what does Ottomans have to do with peoples economic situation?
>>737575
They sure didn't see turks as their equals nor kinsmen. If you were outside the gates of Constantinople you were subhuman.
>>737592
Because the entire Ottoman Economy was functioned to enrich one dynasty and one city. Few symbolic outside investments do not hide the fact that Ottoman Empire was Republican Rome steroids when it came to economy. In other words, give 99% to one city and dont give a fuck about anywhere else.
Almost every Roman ruin you see outside "rome" was built in Imperial period, for a reason. In the same way look at Asia minor. Besides Prusa (which was an Ottoman City) almost every building is Seljuk or Byzantine.
>>735174
>an empire of hashish smokers greedy enough to fuel the discovery of America
>>735174
>evolved
Also, thumbnail made me think this was a Mexico thread.
>>737609
>thumbnail made me think this was a Mexico thread.
wat
>>736317
>we
>>735643
Other slaves, slaves as today's middle-class.
>>735646
I seen his kind before, he is..from.../pol/.
>>737807
Ow shit I recognized the retardation from somwhere.
>>737807
I've never used /pol/ before actually, I find that place stupid.
