>he believes in austrian economics
>>497525
>he doesn't believe in Austrian economics
>>497525
>implying there's anything in Austrian economics to believe
I have become a meme, destroyer of imageboards.
GOAT TIER
Chicago / Monetarist
OKAY TIER
Keynesian
MEME TIER
Austrian
SHIT NIGGER WHAT ARE YOU DOING
Marxism
>he doesn't believe in Australian economics
>>497548
>>497558
>God tier
>horseshit statement
Yep.
>>497571
>muh job creators
>>497580
>muh surplus value
>>497532
>>497553
And so it begins. Tell me anon, what reasonable objections do you have to Neoclassical Econ? I have plenty for that Austrian shit.
1. Austrian Business Cycle Theory has numerous flaws in its logic. It would make sense that over-speculation drives bubbles, and thus creates many business cycles. But low interest rates from central banks never automatically lead to overspecualtion on their own. Also, fractional reserve banks largely didn't exist before the 20th century, so ABCT can't explain any of the numerous business cycles from before that time.
2. Praxing a shit. How on fucking earth is a system that discards empirical evidence in favor of what 'makes sense' supposed to provide a valuable explanation of any of the working of the economy.
3. How is stimulus as a response to a recession or depression bad? Austrians will tell you that it is, but they'll never adequately explain why beyond the generic 'the government doing anything for anyone inevitably leads to socialism!' Fiscal and monetary stimulus prevents or at least reduces:
a. major institutions from closing, which keeps people employed
b. credit crunches, allowing people with good credit to keep borrowing
which leads to
c. preventing a deflationary spiral a la 1929
Seriously, Austrian econ is trash. But at least it's not Marxian econ.
>>497558
Let's look at what Marxians believe:
>the amount of labor it took to make something is the only real value it has
>so this ditch 40 people spent 2 years digging in the desert is more valuable than the house I built in 1/3 the time
Labor Theory of Value a shit. Heterodox fagots please leave this thread.
Market fundamentalists are a fucking joke.
>implying corruption, speculation and boom/bust cycles aren't real
>implying it doesn't happen more easily on unregulated markets
>he doesn't realize that the German historical school of economics is the only one that makes sense
Keep masturbating to abstract mathematical models and inventing bullshit theories to justify your power grabs, Anglos and Jews.
>>497558
Dunno about austrian economics or what it stands for but minimum wage is a shitty idea.
>>497612
>work my ass off to earn a lot of money
>buy an excavator with it
>hire some retard to dig up something with said excavator
>according to Marx, what the retard dug up belongs to him and not to me
>>497685
"No"
>>497691
Yes it is. The nordic model is much, much superior.
>>497704
>isn't actually as good as it sounds
>still one of the highest in the world after adjustment
Not sure what this infographic is trying to prove.
>>497715
I posted the map to show that the Nordics do not have a minimum wage.
>>497723
What is the Nordic model? I've never heard of it in reference to minimum wages
>>497728
"Collectively agreed minimum wages. Negotiated between the parties to a collective agreement to reflect the employers minimum ability to pay, but can be supplemented with local rates. Collectively bargained minimum wages are of great importance in the Nordic countries"
http://www.fafo.no/~fafo/media/com_netsukii/20243.pdf
If you wanna read about it an minimum wage generally.
>>497548
>OKAY TIER
>Keynesian
>>497723
they don't because they are heavily unionized
>>497685
Minimum wage is a mediocre idea and its effectiveness depends on how it's implemented and the exonomic circumstances.
NGDP target through negative income tax when?
>>497525
Marxist shitposters are like vegan shitposters from /fit/.
Name one successful marxist economy and one Keynesian economy that isn't dependent upon wasteful building projects and/or perpetual warfare.
>>498360
>he predicted one crash
You judge what's better: Artifficial vs. real wealth
>he believes you can plan the economy
>he believes stability is intrinsically good and not a ticking timebomb that blows up eventually
>>498360
>wasteful building projects
>>497685
That depends. A minimum wage can be disregarded if a country has extremely powerful unions with overwhelming membership.
Nordic countries, for example, have little need for a legal minimum wage as a practical one is already set by unions.
In countries like the US, where unions are generally very weak, a legal minimum wage is absolutely necessary to at least somewhat prevent worker exploitation.
>>497580
t. unemployed fag
>>498406
>demand for debt
Hwhut
"The idiots of all nations should kill the intelligent people and then life is good forever."
-Karl Marx
>>498555
10/10
>>498451
>wasteful building projects
Wasteful building projects.
It's essentially the same as paying people to dump leaves on a yard, then paying others to rake the leaves, then paying others to dump the leaves again. The only worth of such a project is creating a dependency in a false, arbitrary system.
>>498571
>building something of use is wasteful
>>498575
>any venture is useful
>>498575
>creating dependencies for the sake of false capital and false market growth isn't wasteful
>>497602
>2. Praxing a shit. How on fucking earth is a system that discards empirical evidence in favor of what 'makes sense' supposed to provide a valuable explanation of any of the working of the economy.
>Quantum mechanics a shit. How on fucking earth is a system that discards empirical evidence in favor of what mathematically "makes sense" supposed to provide a valuable explanatin of any of the working of physics?
>>498616
When you have a wealth of empirical data at your fingertips, you should actually use it
>>498604
>I shouldn't wash because I'll get dirty again and it'll artificially employ soap makers
>>498406
Some chart maker just quoted Malthus for Keynesian economics, the world is over.
>>498616
>quantum mechanics
which is supported by both empirical evidence and solid theory
find a better example
>>498555
>I read the bell curve
>>498724
>we should go on a killing rampage in the Middle East attempting to destabilize and topple any state that disagrees with us so that there will be a constant employment of soldiers, constant production of firearms and military vehicles, and constant drilling of oil for these vehicles to use
>>498384
Literally the same as Peter Schiff, while whiffing on ten trillion other things.
>WE WUZ CRASHES N SHIZ
Memery overload
>>498765
>implying I said that
Austrians confirmed for autismians
>>497728
Minimum wage is what's set between the union and employer. A lot of time it's set between huge unions and employer's organizations.
It's based on a culture that while employed and employees may not see eye to eye, cooperation is still preferable to having the government involved since people working with something knows a lot more than someone who have been voted in and the changes in the market can easily be adjusted to with new negotiations instead of waiting for a new law to take effect.
Swedish labour laws can in broad strokes be described as "this is what the law says but everything and it's mother can be negotiated away between the employer and a union if they want it".
>>498360
The Nordic countries are more or less Keynesian.
>>498783
>implying the US does not use Keynesianism to that exact effect
>>498571
>china
>keynesian economics
Struggling hard are we? You don't even understand why real-estate development in China exploded in the last few years. Protip: It wasn't all because of job creation.
And since when are dams, bridges, roads or other useful infrastructure projects "the same as paying people to dump leaves on a yard, then paying others to rake the leaves"?
>>498765
You realize those things are marginal compared to the rest of the economy right
>>498815
>implying im defending the us's actions
>>498724
>Making an analogy between two things which have absolutely nor elation to each other
>>498949
>being this autistic
>>499023
>let me tell you what you're arguing
"No"
>>498833
My point was that Keynesianism uses government manipulation of the economy to create a useless dependency on government economic manipulation in order to achieve false capital in a manipulated system.
>>498833
It's funny how people still call it paying people to dump leaves while American infrastructure is falling apart in a lot of places.
>>499051
Keynesian measures are situationally useful. Like when unemployment is high, infrastructure is falling apart and inflation is low. Oh wait that sounds familiar somehow.
>>499051
But the example isn't correct so it's stupid to use
>>499081
Keynesian programs didn't get the US out of the Depression until WW2 started and there was a need for mass production of military goods.
Now, the US government keeps identifying boogeymen that need to be stopped in order to justify a dependence upon a never-ending mass production of military goods.
>>499104
Buts that's literally wrong
Unemployment was almost halved and Gdp shot up massively under fdr
>>499104
>Keynesian programs didn't get the US out of the Depression until WW2 started and there was a need for mass production of military goods.
[citation needed]
>>499104
Would a war count as non governmental Keynesian stimulus? It's obviously not sustainable
>>497558
>all value is created through labor, and thus by workers
Nigga what
>>499174
>menial
That's just wrong
Literally look at any chart of unemployment or anything
>>497525
>Economics should be put into schools
That's not relevant to the economics of today because the discipline has grown out of being a pure philosophical discipline into one that relies on positivism. Statistical techniques have improved substantially since the 80s and the amount as well as the quality and access of data has dramatically improved in the same period.
Anybody that continues to parrot the whole "X School of Economics is better!!" like it matters shows that their opinion on the subject is nothing short of elementary. All that economics is lacking now is a way to run natural experiments, rather than rely on inferior observational evidence.
>>499218
This.
Anyone who treats economic theories as religions to "belong to" are fucking idiots.
>>499218
>A natural experiment is an empirical study in which individuals (or clusters of individuals) exposed to the experimental and control conditions are determined by nature or by other factors outside the control of the investigators, yet the process governing the exposures arguably resembles random assignment. Thus, natural experiments are observational studies
duuude
>>499254
I chose my words poorly.
Meant to say randomized controlled experiment.
But even then, there's barely any natural experiments in economics, because it would require a control and a experimental population whose characteristics are similar which does not happen often. The very few times it does is two cities or counties in relative proximity to each other pursuing different policies, like one upping the minimum wage and the other not doing so.
>>497687
LTV only applies to commodity production. Resource extraction is null and 'non-productive'. Just another reason Marxism a shit.
>>499179
Except governments wage wars.
And the US has sustained this since the 1940's.
>>498497
What do your think banks truck in, or how interest rates are determined?
>>499294
A macroeconomic controlled experiment would require quite a few dollars. Probably more than the entire US GDP (since it's impossible).
> is two cities or counties in relative proximity to each other pursuing different policies, like one upping the minimum wage and the other not doing so.
observational?
>>498949
>fundamentally misunderstanding how analogies work
Man, people really get angry at economic debates.
>>499323
Because anything that challenges their intellectual beliefs is a threat to their identity as an intelligent dude.
>>499311
>>499321
Depends on what you're studying, like what you cited. But certain experiments, like estimating experimentally the effect of raising a certain tax on a certain characteristic of a population cannot be done.
At least for now.
In 100 or 200 years, with the advent of better AI that could mimic a human being, who knows. Imagine getting thousands of these AIs and building a simulation for them, much like the Matrix, and then using that to test policies experimentally. The AIs don't have to be fully sentient either, they just have to mimic human behavior fairly well to make valid predictions.
>>499328
Yes, I assume it is sign of intelligence being able to quote what others claim/have said and defend it till last breath.
>>499340
Funnily enough, you get to see economic experiments in online games (not fully true, as the value of ones wellbeing is undervalued a lot). But it gives general idea of how people react in certain ways.
>>498616
>praxing
>mathematical sense
Now I know you HAVE to be trolling.
Austian economics only picked up steam because it provided an unfalsifiable capitalist ideology to counter Soviet state controlled markets. In the context of the current world, where everyone accepts the markets, it's a really stupid ideology. It's just an ideaological counterbalance and opposition to centrally controlled economies.
>>499346
Yeah but it's not like people's behavior in online games is an accurate representation of IRL behavior.
>>497612
That's not remotely what the LTV says. Look up "socially necessary labor time", or don't, and remain comically misinformed.
>>499340
>The AIs don't have to be fully sentient either, they just have to mimic human behavior fairly well to make valid predictions.
The trouble is not making them intelligent and rational economic agents. The trouble is making them as stupid and irrational as actual humans.
>>497723
They basically do, though. It's just not statutory law.
>>498765
>implying we're unaware of the Glass Window Fallacy
>implying that war is the only stimulus
>implying that any stimulus will create a crowding out effect
God, Austrians are fucking retarded. I doubt you've even taken Macro 101.
>>499299
In regards to economics, yes. It's his critical social theory that matters.
>>499174
>It was menial until mass production of military goods changed the fate of the US.
It just wasn't look at any economic index charts from the 30s.
>>499368
>we're aware of our flaws
>we still support our ideology whole-heartedly
>>499342
Once you admit you're wrong you are only remembered as being wrong and your other opinions are called into question. Therefore people have an incentive to not be wrong and will use whatever information they can find to rationalize their positions instead of finding the truth. It's one of the sad ironies of dialectics.
At least we can all agree Marxism is a joke
>>499174
This is correct, but Austrians are still idiots and wrong.
Here's why:
WW2 provided the justification for the Government to actually put forth spending measures audacious enough to make an impact. The New Deal gave citizens hope, but it wasn't actually that huge in terms of budget. The reason WW2 was actually effective stimulus was because massive industrial infastructure was created, but none of it was destroyed. So when peacetime came, that industry was used to produce consumer goods instead of military supplies, creating a self-sustaining economic boom. The only thing that proves is that fiscal stimulus works, you just need the balls and the political capital to make the intervention at the right time, and on the right scale.
>>499218
Well yes, hence my mockery of people stupid enough to both believe in economic 'schools' and to then be so stupid as to pick a notoriously stupid and heterodox 'school' to follow.
>>497602
>>498541
>no one distinguished Austrian from Australian
cunts
>>499412
True, it's even sadder when it happens in Anonymous board, where you could just stop posting and inherit a new identity. After all, there are no girls on internet and nobody knows you are a dog.
When it comes down to these two schools of thought. Both are wrong and right.
>>499409
Except that those 'flaws' are situational, and far more limited than you seem to think. Also, who is this 'we' you speak of. I'm not really from any 'school' of economists, I just used the Neoclassical description because mainstream economics at the moment resembles a blend of Monetarism, Keynsianism, and Neoclassical thought.
>>499438
>/pol/ boogeyman
>not /int/
hello reddit!
>>497553
banter is the basis of all value mate
>>499180
This right here is why Marxism fails.
Output is the result of multiple inputs. The workers aren't the ones "really doing the work".
>>499360
I know it's wrong, but memeing about how stupid marxians are is more fun than actually arguing with them, since they are, down to the last man, a collection of insufferable whiny shits.
>>497602
Are neoclassical economics just Chicago school?
>>498460
Start with this
>>502894
>solwell
>ever
>>497728
A load of shite that is surviving off oil. Socialists like to trumpet it as proof socialism works but ignore the fact that when Scandenavia was actually socialist 100 years ago they were Africa-ter starving peasents. Socialism is just holding it back.
>>498797
And they're shitholes surviving off oil. They don't actually have manufacturing or services on the level of even Hong Kong.
>>503286
>Norway is literally #1 in HDI
>>503283
You have no idea do you?
>>503287
Actually agreeing with your point but HDI is a literal meme statistic.
>>503408
You can't really claim Norwegians aren't overall living very well and the biggest downside is the bloody weather. But with the global warming and everything, maybe it'll change.
>>497558
>muh economic illiteracy
please, please, go learn before you post
>>503435
>Norwegian weather
>Downside
Fucking gringo
>>503445
I live in the same climate dude. It has its down and ups.
>>499218
But don't the schools still have real differences based on what metrics and models they choose?
Like the GDP vs. S/D for debt dispute for growth measurement (I'm assuming that both models are based off of some sort of observation/data)
>>497612
Nice Mudpie argument there pleb, how about you open a book and actually learn about Theory of Value instead of shitposting.
>Marxians
FFS
>>497525
Austrian school bullshit is literally the homeopathy of economics.
>all these people who haven't even taken a single class in Austrian Economics
>all these pointless strawmans
>>504628
Pretty accurate.
>>504632
There aren't any classes in Austrian economics, you dingus. There are professors that have an Austrian bias, but they are very few and far between, and their (undergrad) curriculum is still basically neoclassical fundamentals because that's what their colleges (and students) demand they teach.
>>497548
MUH WORKING CLASS/USURY TIER
Monetarism
Bringing complexity into the discussion was their only valuable contribution
>>504628
I'd simplify neoclassical and Marxism to
>these are stupid things that people used to believe
>they don't work
>>504955
I think the problem is the person who made the comic seems to have conflated neoclassical and classical because they both have the word classical in them.
>>504920
http://www.hillsdale.edu
>>504920
http://academy.mises.org/
There are individual professors that also teach Austrian Theory. George Mason University's Economics Branch has a good amount of them as well.
>>504988
That looks sketchy af senpai
>>503283
Only one Nordic country has oil, Norway. Nordic countries do refine oil, but that is completely different.
Finland has a shit ton of peat, but they don't use it to conserve their forests.
>>504981
>>504988
Three colleges out of thousands upon thousands.
Just so you guys don't have a conniption, I'll modify my claim: there are practically no courses specifically on Austrian economics except those available in specialized departments in obscure colleges that very, very few people have attended.
Expecting your average 4chan user to have actually taken such a course is bordering on absurdity. This doesn't mean they don't understand the principles of your pet theory. They just don't advice to them. Sorry.
>>505030
>Hillsdale is obscure
Obscure, maybe.
Irrelevant? Hardly.
That college has a ton of supreme Court clerks and are in every major political commentary around the US.
>>505030
>He does not know Walter E Williams or Vernon L Smith
Two of the more recent Nobel Prize for Economics winners out of George Mason University
>>505040
Great! Are these people on 4chan? Does their existence mean others can't understand Austrian economics without taking a college course at their alma mater?
>>505063
Again, this is one college. I was not disputing 'authority' or whatever it is you see in these people, but pointing out the relative poverty of Austrian courses.
>>505098
What you're doing is justifying people who literally know nothing about the subject or topic spout strawman and memes about it to make themselves feel smart and educated.
You're promoting contrarianism.
>>505129
>implying austrianism isn't just economic contrarianism
>>505129
How many credits do you have at Hilsdale, again?
Sounds to me like Austrians are just Bourgeois vulgar Marxists themselves.
>>505129
>people shouldn't express truths if they are "inconvenient" to my point of view.
>>505225
>believing eschewing the entire system of economic models isn't contrarianism
>>505234
Wut.
>>505241
Austrianism eschews a lot of the classical economic models
>>505249
Not in totality...
They are addressed by a multitude of people. But yes, some models of economics arnt fully applied.
>>505254
Idk, I'm tired af so idk what I'm saying
>>497602
So if major institutions are about to fail, we should prop them up with stimulus. Arguably these institutions that are about to fail are weak.
>>505261
Post pictures of your cock.
>>505266
>Arguably these institutions that are about to fail are weak.
Yes, because that's the only reason why institutions fail right?
>>505283
Not that guy, but it is indeed a potential reason. So when should these firms be allowed to fail?
>>505292
>a potential
>he said only
Lrn2reed
>>505292
Not every institution deserves to be saved but that doesn't immediately mean some shouldn't. It depends a lot on context and consequences. Sometimes it will save the state money in the long run to directly intervene in failing strategic sectors of the economy.
>>505283
I didn't say only. But it would be be on you to prove that they should be propped up, when other potentially more deserving institutions could take their place.
>>499294
Here
BIGGEST CONTROLLED EXPERIMENT TO THE DATE (10+million)
This proves 100% that all economic theories are made of bullshit and have no bearing whatsoever in reality
In fact all video games prove the same
Always all the capital ends up concentrated in the hands of a few who end up running the whole thing
All markets are rigged and capitalism only leads to the annihilation of the society
>>507178
And the one who designed the in game economy ended up being the finance minister of Greece although he didn't last long there
>Valve's economist is Greece's new finance minister
>Varoufakis was at Valve from 2012-2013. Despite not playing games, he said in his introductory post that he was fascinated by the virtual economy Valve had built—specifically that it was an economy with hard data for every transaction. "Think of it: An economy where every action leaves a digital trail, every transaction is recorded;" he wrote at the time. "Indeed, an economy where we do not need statistics since we have all the data!"
>Through Varoufakis's analysing, we learned how gifting played a part in TF2's economy, how a sophisticated bartering and arbitration formed around trades, and how Valve doesn't even fire people like a normal company.
Varoufakis's role as finance minister is quite a departure from the academic study of non-existent headwear. Greece was hard-hit by the economic crisis, leading to a debt crisis that has resulted in high unemployment and bankruptcy. Varoufakis himself is seen as a radical—one who has referred to austerity measures as "fiscal waterboarding".
http://www.pcgamer.com/valves-former-economist-is-now-greeces-finance-minister/
>>497558
Corrected via reversion
>>499053
Falling apart exactly because the Chicago School became very influential during the Reagan years. What a crazy fucking hack that asshole was.
>>507237
>not getting the joke
>>500471
If you're not the least bit Marxist you're an arrogant egotistical cunt. If you're too Marxist you're a faggot. Marxism is the only ideology I know of whose shades of grey have shades of grey. Being an economical libertarian however automatically makes you a cunt.
austrians literally don't believe in evidence
>>507178
>Always all the capital ends up concentrated in the hands of a few who end up running the whole thing
You don't actually need to study DOTA 2 to know that, it's been a constant throughout human history.
I actually think the Scandinavian economical model is the best working right now, but Jesus Christ, they really need to understand what freedom of speech actually means.
>>507268
Which explains why /pol/ is so in love with them.
https://mises.org/library/stateless-somalia-and-loving-it
>daily reminder that rothbardfags are actually raising Somalia as a libertarian paradise
>>507271
>You don't actually need to study DOTA 2 to know that
Of course but the game that is basically separated from reality shows that to you. All the phrases you've been indoctrinated with since you were a child have no bearing. If someone overcharges you for something you are going to be pissed but accept it because whatever, if someone tries to scam you in a game you won't ever rationalize it
It also clearly shows economical theories are actually political theories since the whole community is going to be voluntarily or forcibly structured by it and keep in mind in Dota the cosmetics don't really affect how the game is played (well actually some do but people aren't aware of it)
With no restrictions, goods being perishable or not, wealth being unlimited or not, economy being free or not, the exact same thing repeats itself in every single online game
>>507264
The Marxist doctrine is a drug, like arsenic or strychnine, which in small doses have a stimulating, and in larger ones a paralysing, effect on the creative system.
>Thread was 4 rows below and jumped top
O wow i learned something
Jew mods can bump and sage threads at will
