Why were Bosnia and Albania so effectively converted to Islam while the rest of the balkan countries conquered by the Ottomans weren't?
>>481271
Your mistake is taking peoples' will as an object and not a subject. Bosnians and Albanians were -not- converted to Islam: They converted to Islam
>>481289
Fair enough, but still, why?
>>481300
Benefits
>>481300
Because they are scum, especially Albanians.
>>481271
I come from a Bosnian muslim family. According to our personal tradition, an ancestor did it to survive. If he hadn't converted, he would be killed off (impaled) with the rest of his village during one of the Ottomans raids.
I saw once a Bulgarian movie that describes this period of history and how it occured, more or less that was the case with us aswell.
You can watch it here:
part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJMIB4kE998
part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RMt_c7qESA
Croat here.
>Albanians
Fun fact - Albanians aren't very religious. There's also Catholic Albanians and they all get along. Why? Because Albanians care about only one thing, and that's their family and clan. Religion doesn't factor in this at all. For instance we have some small number of Albanians here and they cause no trouble because we have no beef with them and they have no quarrel with us. On the other hand their history with Serbs is one of war and thus they will never stop hating them.
As for why Bosnia went full tard that's a bit of a difficult question. Bosnia didn't even attempt to defend itself. They just surrendered. I'm assuming the Turks offered this and that, according to the rules of taqqiya, and once they had everything firmly in their grasp the genocide/islamization began. Kinda like what's now happening in the West.
>>481351
Yet the rest of the balcans resisted pretty well. Why did the bosnians and albanians give in so easily?
>>481355
>Bihac surrounded by Ottomans, resisting, from 1492 to 1592
Yeah, I don't think they "just surrendered", moron. Croats and Serbs fucked the peace in Bosnia so often, killing and forcing their version of kike-on-a-stick worship so often that Bosnian Bogomils (with a weak church to begin with) would rather convert to an alien Semite religion than agree with you violent freaks.
>>481351
Odkud buraz?
>>481355
Odkud Ante? (just fucking with you lad)
>>481355
Macedonian here thats a sack of bulshit, they protest here with jihadi and saudi flags, shout allahu ackbar and "uck" "death to infidels" e.t.c. they burned down a fucking bus in protest, and in 2001 UCK used centuries old monasteries and churches as hq and shat and pissed inside, destroyed everything inside, their ancestors did the same thing during ww2. They mind their own shit in Croatia because there are very few of them
>>481355
>Bosnia didn't even attempt to defend itself.
you should read more, _ Bileca 1388, Kosovo 1389 (Tvrtkos armies allied with those of Lazar), Zvecaj, etc. we fought, we lost
>Yet the rest of the balcans resisted pretty well. Why did the bosnians and albanians give in so easily?
The ethnic composition now when looking at the maps was not the same as then and also far more scarce than now. Serbs for example maintained their culture by retreating from the valleys to their medieval core in the dinaric highlands aswell as settling in the north at the Hungarian border forming what is to become the military frontier, there it was hard for the Ottomans to establish their rule. Similar case was with the north Albanians also seeking refuge in the mountains, however the south Albanians were conquered and with time assimilated the northern ones. Some of the northern ones however still remain catholic/orthodox as before the ottoman conquest.
Bosnians on the other hand, as I said is different from family to family. My family also descends from the dinaric highlands but at the lower parts which was more constant to raids, one time the village was burned and the villagers had to choose; islam or death.
>>481430
>islam or death
in macedonia the prefered choice was death
>>481430
What about greece then? They didn't convert to islam and yet they were BTFO
>>481447
>in macedonia the prefered choice was death
if you ancestor have made the choice, you wouldn't be posting now.
also I am tired of what is going to become a /pol/-/int/ shitfest. so good bye and good shitposting to you all.
>>481457
>if you ancestor have made the choice, you wouldn't be posting now
Following that logic it means im muslim right?
>>481467
no following that logic it means that your ancestors were never in the position where their village as burned down and they had to choose.
There is a particular group in Macedonia, called Torbeshi, that did convert to Islam.
>>481471
Many villages were pillaged and burned down. None of those are Islamic, today.
>Many villages were pillaged and burned down. None of those areislamic, today.
Logic fail. If they were pillaged and BURNED DOWN HOW DO THEY EXIST TODAY?
>>481520
By staying and rebuilding your own shit instead of running away like the syrian refugees.
>>481520
>Logic fail. If they were pillaged and BURNED DOWN HOW DO THEY EXIST TODAY?
rebuild them?
>>481271
The Balkans, from the Slavic migrations, is a very interesting and diverse place. Full of Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Bulgarians and Albanians (who apparently were already there), and that virtually never stopped killing each other in the most brutal way possible.
They did this in the last years of the Empire, and continued doing when the Ottomans arrived. And the Ottoman system that forced each to be reduced to their respective place (the raya). They did not care if Croats hated Bosnians, who hated Serbs, who hated Bulgarians, who hated Albanians, who hated everyone, and so on. The confessional system divided the groups by religion only. Catholic, Orthodox, and of course Muslims.
The last group held the Ottoman administration. It had specific privileges, and were not subject to conscription. Something very attractive for Bosnian and Albanian identity, and most of the Bulgarians. Something that set them apart from Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs.
>>481359
>Yet the rest of the balcans resisted pretty well. Why did the bosnians and albanians give in so easily?
In the times of the Balkan Wars the nations started liberating themselves and throwing out the Turks from their lands, under those Turks there also were muslim Slavs that did not want to integrate into the new liberated nations or were persecuted. Since Elayet of Bosnia and parts of south Serbia then known as Sanjak of Yeni Baazar, was still at that time under Ottoman control, many of them moved and settled there. Ottoman Empire however collapsed and the Elayet of Bosnia together with the Sanjak of Yeni Baazar, was given to the Austro-Hungary by the Ottoman Empire in the Treaty of Berlin 1878.
>The Austro-Hungarian administration advocated the ideal of a pluralist and multi-confessional Bosnian nation. Joint Imperial Minister of Finance and Vienna-based administrator of Bosnia Béni Kállay thus endorsed Bosnian nationalism in the form of Bošnjaštvo ("Bosniakhood") with the aim to inspire in Bosnia's people 'a feeling that they belong to a great and powerful nation' and viewed Bosnians as "speaking the Bosnian language and divided into three religions with equal rights." - taken from Wikipedia
Bosnian Serbs however wanted to be united with their other Serbian brethren that managed to liberate themselves, and the rest is history.
>>481481
They are a very small number and are not Macedonian, they do not consider themselves as such and are not considered as such, you cant be muslim and macedonian.
>>481558,
>and most of the Bulgarians.
what exactly are you implying
>>481554
>Whrn they rebuilt how come they werent just sacked again if islam truly spread by the sword?
You can't be from Yurop. srsly. They lived as Dhimmis and payed a special tax and tribute to the sultan, the had to give slaves and young boys for becoming Janissaries, slave soldiers in the sultan's army. When they rebelled, there was a severe punishment,
Get your basic Balkan history together son.
>>481554
>if islam truly spread by the sword?
>my ancestors where told to convert or die
>islam wasnt spread by the sword
Wow i guess the Bosnian stereotype is real
>>481271
I guess it was partially influence of strong autonomous orthodox Serbian and Bulgarian churches. On the other hand I wonder about what role played existence of Bogomil heresy in Bosnia.
Also I was told Albanians convert only because Christians weren't allowed to carry guns.
>>481559
this situation of Muslims in AH Bosnia was far better, Austrians weren't insecure or bitter or whatever you want to call it about centuries of oppression
>>481450
Greek culture and identity were so tied up Christianity at that time, it was almost like Judaism. It wasn't Greek culture that influenced Christianity, it was the other way around (as evinced by Greek Orthodox being much closer to Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox, than to Roman Catholicism).
>>481430
>Similar case was with the north Albanians also seeking refuge in the mountains, however the south Albanians were conquered and with time assimilated the northern ones. Some of the northern ones however still remain catholic/orthodox as before the ottoman conquest.
it is true but incomplete.
lots of Albanians (and some sparse Croats) fled the Ottomans by establishing colonies in Southern Italy and Sicily, in which they still talk old Albanian today (an idiom without the turkisms of today's Albanian language, of course) , pic related.
source: I am Sicilian with some distant Arbereshe heritage
>>481355
>On the other hand their (Albanian) history with Serbs is one of war and thus they will never stop hating them.
Albanian here, that is utter bullshit. Only Albanians that hate Serbs are those from Kosovo, and they hate Serbs probably because of the same reasons Serbs in Croatia hate you, namely genocide.
>>481424
>мaкeдoнeц нa /his/
hmmmmm
>>481419
>Bosnian Bogomils
>kike-on-a-stick worship
If you mean Christ with "kike-on-a-stick". The Bogomils were also Christians, furthermore they were more radical in some point of Christianity than Orthodox or Catholic teachings were.
>The essence of Bogomilism is the duality in the creation of the world. This is why it is considered a heresy by the Catholic Church. Bogomils explained the earthly sinful corporeal life as a creation of Satan, an angel that was sent to Earth. Due to this duality, the church believes that their doctrine undervalues everything that is created with materialistic and governmental goals and further claims that the doctrine does not come from the soul, the only divine possession of the human.[clarification needed] Its followers refused to pay taxes, to work in serfdom, or to fight in conquering wars. They ignored the feudal social system, which was interpreted by their enemies as suggesting disorder if not the destruction of the state and church.
All of this is in extreme opposite to everything Islam teaches, nor the Ottoman Empire could tolerate (against paying taxes, against fighting in wars and against feudalism). Also being a radical Christian sect, more orthodox than Orthodox Christianity in some aspects, and then rather converting even to an alien Semite (with whom you probably mean Mohammed) is far fetched beyond recognition. Bogomils were such hardcore Christians that they wouldn't even convert to more mainstream teachings of Christianity, however that was not the reason they were eradicated in Bulgaria, Serbia, Hungary, the reason was they objected feudalism, wouldn't pay taxes and most importantly wouldn't go to war. All of this made a country full of a population of Bogomils absolutely useless for any monarch and vulnerable to any foreign army.
Bosnia and Albania remained part of the Ottoman Empire even when Serbia gained independence, which ment that serbian muslims fled to Bosnia. Alija Izetbegovic's ancestors are from Serbia IIRC
>>481599
Islam wasn't spread by the sword on the Balkans, it's bullshit.
>>481351
>According to our personal tradition, an ancestor did it to survive. If he hadn't converted, he would be killed off (impaled) with the rest of his village
Sounds like there are some hard feelings. Your family is still muslim though? Do they resent the Ottomans, or their ancestor?
How were Muslim Slavs treated by the majority Christian populace when the Ottoman Empire withdrew from the Balkans? Business as usual, or were there any violent reprisals?
>>482417
It was pretty much the equivalent of being Turkish.
>>481568
Pomaks.
As others said, benefits.
Croatia remained Catholic throughout the 16th and 17th century while Bohemia and Hungary went Calvinist and Austria went Lutheran for the same reason. They got to be officers, they got the influential positions.
>>481271
> Albania
When the head of a tribe/clan converted the rest did too
> Bosnia
Mostly to advance themselves in society
>>482417
The ones with sizable populations could defend their lands the others fled to anatolia, I read somewhere that like 1-2 million muslim slavs migrated to anatolia when anatolia itself had a population of 10 million max.
>>483686
>migrated
They were moved. Moving people around is a classic way to consolidate conquered lands, dating back all the way to Assyria.
>>481568
He is implying that most of the Bulgarians became muslims to gain access to education and wealth. I think he is wrong.
>>481300
They knelt and took the cock in their mouths as soon as shit hit the fan to save their sorry asses. I don't know how those people today don't feel ashamed of their ancestors. I'd spit on them.
>its a balkan shit flinging thread
>>481271
In practice, religion in the middle ages (and to an extent, today) was a declaration of adherence to a certain power and not much else. Bosnia was right out of both the Eastern (Orthodox) and the Western (Catholic) sphere of influence - hence their attempt at independence in the form of the Bosnian Bogomil Chruch. The latter was subdued, but still no one had significant influence on Bosnians, it was basically a power vacuum. A large part of Bosnians converted to Islam gladly and willingly for the multiple benefits the Ottomans offered. Through this, many Middle-Eastern elements left their mark on Bosnian culture, but Bosnians are still one of the most non-religious communities of the Islamic world. Their culture is a lot more European than not, and the vast majority of Bosnians feel downright European and support EU initiatives.
>>481300
Because why not? You'd rather pay out of the ass in jizya?
>>484385
t. butthurt Serbian
>>482404
Not the person you are replying to, but I wrote my thesis about Bosniaks. The general consensus (among Bosniaks and international academics as well) is that muslims Bosnians converted peacefully for the benefits. In fact, most Bosnian Muslims regard the Ottoman times as a golden age and the birth of their nation, and are rather fond of Turkey, whom they often look at as a sort of mother-state, and their ambitions concerning the Balkans.
Just going to leave this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im0IisZ77QI
>>485096
>this meme
non-Muslims paid jizya while muslims paid zakat
>>481300
Being part of the Ottoman empire makes being Muslim easier but Islam is also very interesting and fulfilling. Also Albanians were going through a Catholic-Orthodox conflict that would've been seen as pointless to many and Islam is a reasonable third way. And as it is everywhere that Islam spread, they were attracted to Sufi proselytizers.
>>487730
pic related, Albanian
>>487698
Thank God, someone else knows this.
>>481271
Fuck you and your thumbnail.
>>482404
>Sounds like there are some hard feelings. Your family is still muslim though? Do they resent the Ottomans, or their ancestor?
thread still alive, might as well the answer.
we are traditionally muslim, but not religiously (almost noone was in socialism, religion is opium and that thing). In the 90s when the war started, the religious ones took over the power and are still holding it.
>Do they resent the Ottomans, or their ancestor?
we do not talk about it, I myself did research it and my grandfather told me the story. the friends I have, as well as myself, resent the Ottomans, eventhough we are muslim, we hold the medieval Bosnian state (which was curiously christian and fought against the ottomans) to a higher value and identify with them.
This is however different from family to family, person to person. We are a very split society, from people that share my beliefes, to those that are extremly neo-ottoman (our government for example), to those that are radical muslims living in their own wahabist communities. if you ask me I do not know which are the majority, but since the government is elected by the people, most would be neo-ottoman it seems.
>>487698
How does his post contradict yours? Non-Muslims were still taxed more than Muslims, wasn't that the whole point of the dhimmi thing?
>>481966
Isn't the Sufi order that the Bosnians converted to quite the heretics too?
A lot of these orders, or "tariqas", are really just gnostics in disguise.
>>489190
Das ist Walter.
They were underdogs on the peninsula and converting gave them more sway over their former, more powerful rivals (Croats, Serbs, Bulgars, Greeks) once all of their territories were consolidated within the Ottoman empire.
You will notice that Albanians are hardly mentioned in history up until the Ottoman empire. They were irrelevant until Islam.
>>489391
So basically they just sucked Ottoman cock because they couldn't fend for themselves?
>>490758
The biggest cocksuckers were serbs. Don't tell me you fell for the remove kebab meme.
>>483123
>austria Lutheran
You wot m8?
Austria is and has always been undisputedly Roman Catholic.
>>491003
>fell for the remove kebab meme
so the whole muslim kekbab removal genocide in the 90's was staged? I thought so desu senpai. fuckin jihadis.
