How did a group of scattered barbaric tribes eclipse the Roman Empire and evolve into the most powerful and influential human lineage that the world has ever known?
>stolen crops
>stolen technologies
>other stolen wealth
They're basically just thieves.
FRANCE
R
A
N
C
E
Also Catholicism. But mostly France.
>>453311
>imblying the Romans didn't loot the Med and western Europe, most notably Greece, of everything of cultural or temporal significance that wasn't nailed down and much of what was
Building on what was left behind
>>453305
>Roman Empire
The Roman Empire was not a stabilizing force for innovation within the provinces.
Rome destroyed all the innovative peoples of Europe, Rome stole wealth, technology, and energy from the peoples of Europe, which led to stagnation.
Rome set Europe back by a 1000 years.
Roman infrastructure and knowledge + barbarian retard strength = Europe's power.
The soul of Western man.
Irresistibly driven towards the infinite, determined and confident enough in his own force to conquer it, yet humble enough to always question himself and improve.
>>453318
>But mostly France.
But mostly the actually important colonialists*
>>453338
WTF is colonialists?
>>453339
I never mentioned infrastructure or Romans.
>>453339
>All the Roman infrastructure was abandoned and fell into ruin.
So that's why so many Roman settlements are major cities today, of course.
>>453343
look it up retard
>>453305
by the concept of foederati. the roman empire relied in its final stages more and more and the foederati principle to keep their military machinery going, with time those foederates (germanic and slavic tribes settled on the boundaries roman empire in order to protect it and function as frontiers) seeked more autonomy thus gradually evolving into kingdoms (case with the eastern roman empire, emergence of Serbian and Bulgarian kingdoms and tsardoms) or started plundering, raping and pillaging the bejeezus out of the Romans (case with the sacking of Rome) until it became a part of their chimping out thus gradually adopting the values of the former Roman society (e.g. HRE). Thus the medieval Europe was born.
>>453346
A settlement isn't infrastructure, it's just a place where people live, and usually already lived long before the Romans.
>>453334
Yes the Faustian Soul + the development of capitalism in the 12th century.
>>453318
>implying the franks were french
nice job at stealing the name, but charlemagne and his buddies were germanic, not french.
>>453350
>A settlement isn't infrastructure
Actually it literally, necessarily is.
>and usually already lived long before the Romans.
And many times not, and many times with more advanced infrastructure built by the Romans.
>>453347
>colonialist (plural colonialists)
>An advocate of colonialism
Come back when you know how to English.
The Celtic peoples were better at living than the rest of Europe.
You can see it today were Celtic peoples are strongest, Northern Italy is efficient and industrious compared to Southern Italy, Gaul/France was always the most productive territory, and Britain.
These 3 areas are the most efficient territories in the world.
>>453348
/this
>By the 5th century, lacking the wealth needed to pay and train a professional army, Western Roman military strength was almost entirely reliant upon foederati units. In 451 AD, Attila the Hun was defeated only with help of the foederati (who included the Visigoths and Alans), and the foederati would deliver the fatal blow to the dying nominal Western Roman Empire in 476 AD, when their commander Odoacer deposed the usurper Western Emperor, Romulus Augustulus.
>>453352
>the development of capitalism in the 12th century
You what now?
>>453359
is this a joke?
are you actually that retarded?
>>453346
Milan, Paris, and London (was settled before Rome). 3 of the greatest cities of Northern Europe, all Celtic.
>>453353
They were only Germanic as far as France is Germanic.
>>453360
>The Celtic peoples were better at living than the rest of Europe.
Clearly not better at fighting.
>>453357
Absolutely no Roman infrastructure survived past the Dark Ages, except maybe one or two small bridges.
>>453370
Wow, all three! That's amazing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Roman_towns_and_cities_by_country
>>453367
>how do i english :(
>>453372
Yeah? Who led the Romans into the trap at Cannae?
>>453381
>relating to colonialism:
>the colonialist powers
So you are actually mentally deficient.
>>453384
Yeah? Who got conquered by Romans and Germanics?
>>453305
Discovery of the new world
>>453371
no, they were a germanic tribe, originating east of the rhine, and speaking a germanic language.
the area of france was largely populated of gallo-romans, only the nobility was frankish.
>>453388
That's an adjective. You were using it as a noun.
And who gives a shit about colonial crap? So Indians know how to say "poo in the loo" in English, whoop-dee-doo, that sure made Europe great.
>>453373
Yet their settlements still served as the basis for many in Europe, and to not survive past the dark ages is still surviving for centuries into the dark ages, well into the primitive beginnings of European kingdoms.
>>453363
Check out the Annales School and the concept of the Long Duree which places an object of study with a deep historical context. Braudel traces cycles in capitalism back to the 12th century. Capitalism serves as the Western worlds politic-economic structure; it was a major force in driving the Age of Exploration and subsequent European imperial expansion ushering in the modern world. All modern institutions developed around the trade networks established during this time including the nation-state as it's understood today. This is a framework for viewing historical processes that rises above nationalist perspectives.
>>453403
>You were using it as a noun.
Which it also is, and still corresponds with those in colonial empires, you mongoloid.
>And who gives a shit about colonial crap?
Every country in Europe rich enough to reap more riches from their imperialism.
Nice sour grapes though, I take it your favorite country didn't do too well in the race.
You're clearly historically illiterate if you have no understanding of how colonialism contributed to Europe. Might want to look up the Columbian Exchange.
>>453394
No.
Franks started settling in Gaul in the 3rd century (that was kind of the whole purpose of the Frankish confederacy in the first place). After Clovis conquered Gaul around 500, the Franks converted to Catholicism, and the Gallo-Roman nobility wasn't wiped out but merged with the Frankish one (typically dukes were Franks and counts were Gallo-Roman). By then the Franks obviously ceased to exist as a tribe and now belonged to a state. Within a few generations Frank just meant inhabitant of Francia, and all of Francia spoke Latin/Old French except for the Eastern part of Austrasia.
>>453404
The Dark Ages only lasted 300 years, and Roman infrastructure stopped being used or maintained already during the late Empire. I don't see how the abandoned ruin of some aqueduct helped medieval Europe.
>>453373
>Absolutely no Roman infrastructure survived past the Dark Ages
lol what the fuck are you stupid?
have you even seen spain?
>>453391
Rome got conquered by the "Germanics", the Gauls allied themselves with the Franks seeing that the Empire couldn't even hold Italy together.
Clovis was allies with Armoricans and Gauls in his wars against the Visigoths and Burgundians.
>>453417
So I guess the French conquests of England are really pretty meaningless since they didn't slaughter everyone, inter-married, and formed their own regional identity quite quickly. Just a footnote I suppose.
>>453411
and the romans were less capitalistic/
>>453412
Colonialist means advocate of colonialism. And countries only ever resort to investing in colonies once they've become incapable of expanding their continental borders.
>>453412
Yes he would be well served to start with the basics like the Colombian exchange. But there's also this whole field of study called Atlantic history which has much more unique historiographical insights regarding the effects European imperial expansion and the development of the hyper globalized world via the Atlantic world
>>453422
Yeah and? Do they use Roman bathhouses or some shit?
>>453432
>And countries only ever resort to investing in colonies once they've become incapable of expanding their continental borders.
You say that like it was some last resort for paupers, when it was the richest, most advanced countries in Europe that were proto-colonial empires, and only the country ruled by the lavish Habsburg retards wasted the wealth gained from the new world away. The seats of those empires and their offspring were the richest and most powerful states in the world from the 16th-20th centuries. Salty as fuck.
>>453431
How does my post imply anything about the Romans?
>>453417
nice scribbling, but nothing of that is refuting the point that the franks were a germanic tribe, with germanic culture and germanic language.
also,
>medieval
>state
top kek
>>453430
But the Norman conquest was the exact opposite of that. The French/Normans didn't intermarry or assimilate into the local culture, instead they almost completely replaced the aristocracy with themselves and created the British class system, while continuing to speak French for centuries.
>>453435
there's a shitload of roman infrastructure left in spain, what kind of stupid fuck claims 'no roman infrastructure survived past the dark ages' then gets defensive when he's called out? don't talk shit, dummy.
>>453449
Not him, but Lrn2Feudalism
>>453328
I hope you're kidding
>>453462
>posting this meme
>>453462
Rome created the Dark Ages you stupid faggot. Rome systematically annihilated the Greek world, the Phoenicians, Etruscans, and Celtic peoples.
>>453455
>conquered on the claim that the king was related to the region's royalty
>somehow just french
okay pierre, do we really have to go through how the norman conquest of england wasn't french, AGAIN?
>>453460
what has the germanic ethnic of the franks to do with feudalism?
>>453469
Weren't there universities in the Roman world? Didn't they try to innovate themselves?
>>453446
>You say that like it was some last resort
But it was.
Spain started colonising right after they finished reconquering Iberia but were cockblocked by France in the North.
England started colonising right after they lost Calais and with it all hope of ever expanding in Europe.
France started colonising after Napoleon and the Vienna system made it impossible for it to keep expanding in Europe as it had done until then.
Prussia/Germany started colonising after it conquered Germany and could no longer reasonably expand in Europe (and after Wilhelm II got rid of Bismarck who quite rightly argued that colonialism was a pointless exercise of idiotic vanity).
>>453462
He's exaggerating, but he's right. Romans didn't care about science that much, there were no famous Roman engineers or mathematicians, and there were no math/science books in Latin. Everything was done by Greeks in Greek, just like they did it before Rome came. As for technical innovations, you would be hard pressed to name two or three such innovations widely adopted by Romans after, say, 100 AD. Rome brought stagnation.
>To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace.
>>453458
Name some of that Roman infrastructure that the Spanish kept using.
>>453462
Fixed your shit graph.
>>453487
> Weren't there universities in the Roman world?
Greek ones, in the Eastern Empire, established before Romans. Latin universities would teach you Law only, not math/science.
>>453496
>scientific advance during the Enlightenment is just barely above the CDAs.
found the reactionary
>>453470
Man you bongs are pathetic.
Just how butthurt do you have to be about France to desperately delude yourselves that you were conquered by retarded Vikings instead?
>>453447
/ was ?
>>453496
How come there's an increase in the MA and the a downward trend.
>>453503
Most of Newton's laws were already taught in the 14th century by Buridan.
>>453499
So did Romans made them stop teaching math/science and only learn law?
>>453503
I kek'd
>>453489
>But it was.
No it absolutely was not you, again, historically illiterate retard.
It was a grand opportunity for rich nations.
You think carracks just appear out of thin air? And navigators? And the wealth necessary to consistently voyage around with the world? And to settle on those regions?
It was an opportunity for countries who were incredibly powerful when their neighbors had become so well established that 'conquering' them effectively boiled down to raiding them with armies for a bit then going home.
>Spanish and English colonization was contingent on le French prime mover to stop them
Yeah, there's a little more to it then that, bud.
By the time Prussia/Germany started to colonize, it was a bandwagon to keep up with the cool kids, especially with the cost of maintaining smaller but still resistant colonies, and especially costly in shitholes like Africa that purposefully went uncolonized for centuries due to disease and otherwise inhospitality.
>>453496
How the fuck is "scientific advancement" even quantified?
>>453524
How many technologies available?
>>453511
Renaissance Humanism. Gothic Era science was rejected because "muh dark ages", and instead everyone went back to blindly following Aristotle. That only ended at the end of the Renaissance, when people like Galileo revived Gothic science, amidst considerable opposition from Renaissance academics.
>>453514
What about medicine?
>>453515
Romans didn't care. Well, unless you're Archimedes who built machines for their enemies, then they would kill you.
>>453524
Beakers.
>>453519
Then why didn't France build a colonial empire? Are you seriously going to claim France under the reign of the Sun King was too poor?
>>453528
Medicine didn't progress significantly until the 19th century with Pasteur etc.
>>453525
the real world isnt civilization 5.
>>453535
>Archimedes
Didn't the Roman general wanted to capture him alive but because hotheaded Roman soldier he was killed?
>>453538
>Then why didn't France build a colonial empire?
kek
>>453492
> that the Spanish kept using.
moving the goalposts to keep from looking retarded, but here's one example for you, and there are several examples of towns settled by the romans that served as a basis for existing towns today
mind you, this is in addition to the dozens of sites of existing roman infrastructure, but you can change the goal posts again if you're compelled to
>>453545
But we have countless more technologies being used today then before. You could say we also lost technologies like Greek fire but we have much more knowledge on how to use our surroundings.
>>453541
The Black Death contributed significantly to medicine at the end of the 14th and beginning of the 15yh centuries; the modern hospital, the idea of quarantine, autopsy, etc. Renaissance literature expanded on anatomy as well
>>453548
Yes, but excuses they came up with don't change the fact.
>>453551
I literally said
>expect one or two bridges
>moving the goalposts
What? What use is infrastructure if it's not used? So let me get this straight, you think the greatness of European kingdoms comes from staring at some abandoned Roman sewer?
>>453538
Are you fucking for real?
>>453538
>>453526
This is some of the most unfounded bullshit I have ever read on /his/
>the Gothic era was the period of hidden scientific knowledge!
>those idiotic Renaissance humanists actually thought that rabble of antiquity had it right
>end of the Renaissance
>Galileo
>the man who contributed to Renaissance science
>it was all the Gothic science
Forty keks
>>453389
>best Celts
>Gauls
laughingirish.illuminatedmanuscript
>>453556
All that is 14th century, before the Renaissance. Hospitals didn't really change after that until the 18th century. And medicine changed even less, it was still based on the theory of humours, and invariably consisted in bleeding the patient, with or without leeches.
>>453568
>What? What use is infrastructure if it's not used? So let me get this straight, you think the greatness of European kingdoms comes from staring at some abandoned Roman sewer?
what the fuck are you talking about?
>>453373
>Absolutely no Roman infrastructure survived past the Dark Ages
this is where you fucked up, retard
and I've corrected you, because a shitload of roman infrastructure survived past the dark ages
that simple
>except maybe one or two small bridges.
it's the longest existing roman bridge
that's not small.
>>453360
Yeah but Britain was a backwards shithole is Roman times
>>453595
>IT DIDN'T MATTER AT ALL GUYS
yeah, okay
>>453580
There is not a single thing in Galileo's books that wasn't already discovered by Buridan and Oresme and taught in Paris in the mid 14th century, and modern historians believe it almost certain Galileo had access to Gothic textbooks.
You should read up about that period, you'd learn a lot of interesting things.
>>453581
>sacked Rome
>defeated the Greeks and Macedonians
>conquered fucking Turkey
>top gladiators and mercenaries all the way to Egypt
>>453615
hey, hey guy
you know the carolingians valued books on antiquity and its teachings, right? do you not realize how gothic science and literature had classical influences?
>>453594
OK so you have one bridge.
Now explain how that one bridge in Spain led to Western greatness.
>>453619
If they're so good, why did they get conquered so easily, twice? Where's the Gaulic Empire?
>>453622
What are you even talking about and do you even have a point?
>>453624
>OK so you have one bridge.
no, I literally have dozens of examples of existing roman infrastructure, they're very popular tourist destinations.
>Now explain how that one bridge in Spain led to Western greatness.
nah, I've already proved your retarded ass wrong, just don't say dumb shit in the future, k?
>>453611
There is a radical difference between France's attitude to colonialism in the 16th century (ie not giving the slightest bit of a fuck) and the 19th century (going all out because it's the only way it could still expand).
>>453631
work on your reading comprehension.
>>453627
Infighting obviously. Caesar had half of the Gallic tribes on his side. By the time the Gauls united it was way too late.
>>453638
>(going all out because it's the only way it could still expand).
Oh my god can you stop repeating that like its the only factor to colonialism? It's disgustingly uneducated.
>>453636
OK kid, Europeans didn't conquer the world because of a bridge in Spain. Now kindly never attempt to discuss history ever again.
>>453640
Sounds like they're pretty shit if they're too dumb to have any collective strength without the help of another governing body. Pretty lame, mate.
>>453648
contain your hostility man, it's too funny
>>453648
>being this mad
>>453644
It literally is. French people wanted to conquer shit like they had under Napoleon but they couldn't anymore because they'd get their shit slapped. So they went to Algeria as a consolation prize, and then kept going. When Germany took Alsace-Lorraine from them they literally offered to exchange their entire colonial empire for it.
Nobody ever gives a shit about some malaria-infested swamps half a world away when they can still get European land.
ITT /pol spillout
retards at the gates
>>453663
>It literally is.
You're literally wrong and historically illiterate, try again.
>>453650
The Greeks had the same independence you stupid faggot. Also Gaul is enormous compared to Italy and Greece.
>>453666
are baguetteboos /pol-tier now?
>>453650
Greatest warriors =/= most clever politicians.
>>453672
OK kid
>>453669
>n-no u
Get out of /his/.
>>453496
>dark age / renaissance fall
what happened there? Why is there a fall between these two periods?
>>453681
>don't know shit
>come to post on /his/
>n-no u
Read a book, then come back.
>the French were late bloomers because colonies were just for dumb poor countries
Amazing historical insight, a true genius.
>>453683
>what happened there?
Historical revisionism done by Pierre to glorify the French-dominated Gothic period and pretend it was more advanced than it actually was.
>>453686
Look you clearly don't know as much about this subject as you thought you did, and you just got rekt and obviously don't know what to respond. It's not the end of the world, just retire with dignity instead of acting like even more of a retard.
>>453372
Brennos was a celtic gaul who conquered Rome and sacked it before Romans and Julius Caesar took their revenge on Gaul.
The battle of Gaul was more tight than people imagine. Romans won only because of one fight
>>453690
Butthurt Italian mad because muh Renaissance myth?
>>453690
>>453683
Everyone should read this.
>>453697
>Look you clearly don't know as much about this subject as you thought you did
You clearly know nothing on the subject if you honestly think the only factor in the compulsion to begin and maintain colonial empires was not enough land. Grossly misinformed.
>and you just got rekt
>shit I'm not convincing him
>I'll just meme him
Yeah man, totally #rekt right.
You have no comprehension of the history of colonial empires, have a transparent bias towards them, and are now acting butthurt as fuck.
>>453702
>What is it with you and France?
You tell me, what's your obsession?
>>453711
>nothing but childish insults
Yeah this discussion isn't salvageable.
>>453718
You're the one who brought up France in a totally unrelated topic, twice.
>>453722
>childish insults
>hahaha xD i rekt u
Clever boy.
>>453384
That painting is so fucking hot
>>453663
>French people wanted to conquer shit like they had under Napoleon but they couldn't anymore because they'd get their shit slapped. So they went to Algeria as a consolation prize
Colonization had multiple origins, first it was christianity and christianisation of other people. Covered under helping them.
Then it was simply imperialism, to expand some universal values.
Then, the jews. 50% of the french colons in algeria were jewish.
But most importantly, it's because north africans were pirating all over the Mediteranean sea for a century at least and they were taking boats and what was inside them, also doing slavery of white europeans they were capturing on these boats.
This is why all European countries colonized africa. They started with north africa and went down.
This is why algeria, morrocco, and tunisia was the frenchs, egypt and lybia was british parts. Portugal had some zones too. Italians had a bit of actual Lybia i think. etc
One of the first European collaboration desu.
>>453705
Ligurians were Celtic influenced but were not Gauls. Northern Italy had native Celtic groups and late migration Gauls.
>>453663
>Nobody ever gives a shit about some malaria-infested swamps half a world away when they can still get European land.
The entire Spanish wealth of the time was based off South American silver. They gave a shit about those mountains.
>>453499
And Romans shut down all the old institutes of learning once they turned to Christianity. Romans were wonderful managers and conquerors but couldn't invent for shit.
>>453761
And Francis Drake captured so much Spanish gold and silver it exceeded the annual English state budget.
>>453752
There is no debate on the origin of Brennos. He was a Gaul. He came from nowadays region of Paris area. He is the reason why julius caesar invaded the Gaul and not another region, because it was Rome's revenge on Gauls.
Brennos died in northern italy though, you know, battles and shit.
I don't know much about Ligures. But maybe they were a celtic tribe yes.
>>453790
I don't beleive all Celtic people spawned out of Gaul, it is revisionist history by the Romans.
Cato wanted to impeach Caesar and sent him to Gaul to be executed. But the winners write history.
>>453462
The Roman Empire was regressing in numerous key areas (art, science, philosophy) well before the Advent of Christianity.
Europe became what it did because it's later kings actually cared about their citizens (unlike the far east) and we're able to centralize power (unlike the mideast) which combined with competition between the various nations, pushed them to be better than everyone.
Competition promotes excellence
>>453954
Brennos was not a Ligure he didn't come from northern italy. However he sacked Rome and fought italians in northern italy.
You must think of somebody else then.
Proto Celts spawned out of central-western Europe, in a small area between todays Switzerland, Germany, Austria and France. Then they expanded. It was a civilisation called Hallstatt and La Tene.
>>454022
Before the outage I was going to say that I never said Brennus (we say Brennan here in Ireland) wasn't from Gaul. I was just stating that Celtic people are associated with the Urnfiled culture, see pic related.
>>453328
is this a meme
>>454504
Rome was a great guy, remember that time he sacked Athens? He was sooooo jealous that Athens had a port connected to it call Piraeus, do you remember? Piraeus was the most beautiful port in all the Mediterranean, and Rome had nothing but a swamp between it and the River, do you remember how they killed 200,000 of the inhabitants of Athens and then destroyed Piraeus?
Who can forget the obliteration of Corinth, that was a good one, not only did they defeat the Greeks, but those Romans went one better and destroyed the city utterly.
Lets not forget the time the Romans destroyed Carthage, that great maritime power, the Phoenicians, they brought trade and prosperity from Tyre to Tyrone in Ireland. Rome totally annihilated it, oh boy, the Europeans really were better off after that.
Do you remember the time when Pergamon feared for its mortal soul? They look around at the neighbors of Rome and seen the fate that befell them, then the King of Pergamon realized that he was now their direct neighbor, the wise King decided to give his Kingdom to Rome, that way his people will be saved, only for the Romans to bankrupt them and enslaved all their people.
Don't forget those other Greeks, the Epirotes, Rome also destroyed them and enslaved their people.
Gaul and Britannia......................
HE WAS A GOOD FRIEND
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7RNSecaI_4
>>453676
>celts
>greatest warriors
nice try, but ive never seen celts conquering every major european area, like some other tribes did.
>>456886
They expanded into Gaul, Britain, Spain, Balkans and Anatolia. Looks pretty major for me.
>>455018
>Destroyed Carthage
They had it coming.
>>456899
Celts and Gauls are not interchangable.
>>453524
Amount of scientific papers published. It's a shitty tool to measure with and it's useless once you go back enough years but it's something.
>>453339
>All the Roman infrastructure was abandoned and fell into ruin.
Half of Europe's bridges were still roman made by the 19th century. Wellington famously said during the Peninsular War, "if the romans had never come here, the spaniards would have never crossed a river".
>>455018
>support the tyrant who had 100,000 Romans, Italians, and their slaves murdered on the same day all across Greece and Asia Minor
>defy Sulla
Yeah nah, they had it coming
>>453320
Romans were the original Blood Magpies.
>>453524
Potential GDP per capita.
>>453499
>Greek ones, in the Eastern Empire, established before Romans. Latin universities would teach you Law only, not math/science.
All well-educated Romans were bilingual. Ptolemy, Hero, Dioscorides, Menelaus, and Galen, some of the greatest scientists in antiquity, were all Romans. Greek science wasn't translated into Latin because they didn't need it. They were reading the stuff in its original language. Aristotle was undergoing a new craze of popularity, the Romans reissued a new edition of his complete works. The Roman engineer Hero praises, quotes and expands on the works of Archimedes, and Archimedes' science was used extensively by Roman technologists, in ship hull design, aqueduct design, the use of the water screw, and more.
The Latin West had entire wings of their libraries stocked with Greek treatises, and Latin scientists spoke and read Greek. Even private libraries in the West were once well-stocked in Greek texts (like the one we've been excavating in Herculaneum). During the Dark Ages the Latin West largely forgot how to read Greek, and gradually threw away almost all its Greek books out of disinterest, making little attempt to remedy the loss by translating them into Latin. That was a conscious choice. Indeed, since contact with the Greek East was never broken, they had every opportunity to remedy that loss. They didn't. There was a very Greek heritage in the West that was very definitely lost.
