Are the adoption of "Christian values" reason enough to convert to Christianity?
You should convert if you agree with Symbol of Faith.
>>411391
with what?
>>411460
>>411384
No. As a Christian, that's a horrifying reason to convert.
>>411547
Many on 4chan think it is a good enough reason. Especially on /pol/
>>411585
Yeah. It's the worst.
>>411384
Absolutely
>inb4 butt hurt fedoras claim morality is relative
>>411384
>slave morality
It's the reason to stay away from it.
>>411384
Enough reason to convert? I'm not sure that I fully understand, but I think that that is not the proper mindset. Certainly let it help spark an interest in the faith, but to convert is a serious thing that must come from a spiritual place, not simply trying to adopt some kind of value system. Religion is a way of life, not just an aspect of it. Unfortunately, too many people don't always remember this in their daily lives.
>>411384
Not really
I mean I'm not Christian but a lot of their values (mercy, charity, confession, belief and fear of something higher) I tend to agree with.
>>414048
>fear of something higher
Absolutely disgusting
>>412300
>what is the is-ought problem
>>412300
Claiming that morals can be objective with God is a nonsense statement. Unless God makes some kind of objective law to the universe the same way we have laws for electricity and gases.
>>414451
rule of law > *
u mad anarchist?
>>411467
At this moment I am enlightened, not by any phony science, but by my own understanding of God
>>417049
If you have to fear the law then you're probably living under tyranny
>>411585
I find it hilarious that the most racist and intolerant board is also the most Christian board
>>417238
Why is that hilarious? Christianity is intolerant and bigoted, so it doesn't surprise me at all that a bunch of retarded racists are Christians.
>>417306
I know they are, but then I see them also try to defend it as the only peaceful religion and it becomes funny
>>417238
Well as Hitchens often pointed out, the rise of Fascism during 1920ish-1945 was very connected with the Catholic Church. Even better, look up the Ustashi atrocities in the Balkans.
>>417366
When you believe your actions are justified by a god, suddenly every action, ever atrocity, becomes possible
>>417651
This is true. Most godfags will claim "without god you're gonna murder and rape because anything is possible without god!".
But in reality, when god is your justification, suddenly running planes into towers is completely reasonable.
>>418220
t. Zizek
>>411384
No
t. Christian
no but if you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. then thats part of it. The true history comes with a mystery. You have to be touched by the holy ghost to know it. However the concept in different cultures and in different times change. Many peoples believed that virgin did not mean to had never had sex but to never had bore children. And if mary bore children, and jesus was an immaculate conception than he was first born.
>>411384
No, but it is enough to justify deciving and imposing it on others
>>418782
This can be summed up logically under that concept. That if marry had borne jesus, a virgin. and virgin means to never conceived children. And she stayed a virgin was because she betrayed her first born. So if Joseph never saw her, then she'd given birth to an illegitimate child. And if Jesus said he had brothers. Then they were Josephs kids. Therefore she was more protective of them than Jesus. However the taint from her betrayal made it look as if she had never conceived. Thus a virgin.
>>411384
no. any religion has values. you have to believe in the father, the son and the holy ghost.
>>417069
or just not a chaotic shithole filled with people stabbing each other
you want an impartial law that everyone obeys so people don't dick each other over as much as they would if that wasn't the case.
>>418681
This board would be much better if every poster was Zizek.
>>418823
so God commanded Joseph not to sleep with mary while pregnant because joseph would then be savoring another man's sin and inequities. blemishing him. Therefore the only God was the voice of society.
Remember, gold, myrrh and incense were the best surgical equipments at that time.
So If you believe everything I have told you thus far. You may be a Jew!
Adoption for "Christian values" without sincere faith in God, or a sincere attempt to cultivate that faith, is analogous to planting a seed that will never blossom into a flower.
I'm also wary of atheists and agnostics looking to convert without the intention of actually seeking and knowing God. I suspect such people are part of the reason why there is currently a crisis in the Catholic Church. That's another subject for another time, though.
>>418935
he fell for a harlot just like his mother. protected her from being stoned out of his conviction for his own mother. then when he was crucified. he cried out for his father that was there, but knew not. He cried for his to be born son, that'd never see his father, like him. They dehydrated him of life to be served something bitter. They made him face the rising sun, to be burnt by the brilliance of the light.
>>411384
Is this the guy that kept posting Santa in the "Do you beleive in god?" threads?
>>411384
No,why would you think that?
If you don't sincerely believe in it, you are basically subscribing to a belief system because you lack the discipline to apply a moral and ethical code to yourself.
christianity prohibits, force feeding or taking nourishment from within the body of a soul. Christianity prohibits letting people die with their eyes open. they should be closed. It condemns marriage by peerage if there is no love. it condemns, condemning or making people suffer.
>>419014
christianity condemns the majority. All Jesus was missing was a good attorney. But he kept saying I am at all the accusations.
>>418951
>
I'm also wary of atheists and agnostics looking to convert without the intention of actually seeking and knowing God. I suspect such people are part of the reason why there is currently a crisis in the Catholic Church. That's another subject for another time, though.
Can you start a thread on this one day because thats an issue im genuinley interested in.
>>419143
Make it yourself
>>419143
Sure, possibly tomorrow (it's late where I am right now). What, in particular, interests you about it?
one of my childhood friends made a virtual reality machine. he would have me going crazy with logic. I'd literally have to sit down and read every sacred text imaginable and make logic statements. sentence by sentence. I love religions and stuff like that. so it was a fun hobby from time to time. but he based his virtual reality on the via dolorosa. without the myth or magic, just logic. it's crazy. The protagonist in the program goes through his via dolorosa while the rest of the world lies in the chaos of other logic statements, involving a whole lot of other accords. Christianity is the most universal doctrine. And I think that is what has helped Christian countries progress socially, faster than other religions..
I think the question here would be. Did jacob feel the cross or did the cross feel jacob? Ask yourself that and give yourself an answer. And there lies your quest of reason.
>>419014
Citation needed.
>>419376
in addition to that I thought that their non belief would make them passive supporters of the church that wouldnt create the risk of heresy or division
>>419376
If that's all you want to know then I can tell you that they, being part of the modernist camp, are the worst threat that our Church is currently facing. I don't know why you would have thought they would be welcome. They are precisely the people that Popes Pius XI, Leo XIII, Pius X, Gregory XVI, etc., were warning against; moral relativists whose ideological origins trace to the French Revolution and who reject the universal truth of Christ, endorse and seek to propagate values and ideas that are utterly at odds with Church doctrine and dogma, and who are actively and knowingly leading Catholics into error. And, indeed, I often wonder whether those laity who are quickest to voice their support of the monstrous heresy of modernism are themselves privately apostates. I am certain that several Cardinals and Bishops are.
And this is why, IMO, they cannot and should not be welcomed. Whatever the intentions of those atheists or agnostics who choose to convert for temporal or "pragmatic" reasons, they simply cannot help but want that the Church be "updated" to suit modern sensibilities. Because atheists and agnostics do not acknowledge the divinity of Christ, they must necessarily reject the divine origins of the laws and teachings He gave us. Those laws that are not objectively and universally true will invariably become subject to abrogation or alteration. It cannot be helped. These people, whether they know it or not, are Trojan horses. Shut the gates, I say, and shut them tight.
>>419423
> endorse and seek to propagate values and ideas that are utterly at odds with Church doctrine
But thats the thing they choose to follow the church and help support that because they think it has a benifical effect on society. Why would they seek to change that?
>And this is why, IMO, they cannot and should not be welcomed. Whatever the intentions of those atheists or agnostics who choose to convert for temporal or "pragmatic" reasons, they simply cannot help but want that the Church be "updated" to suit modern sensibilities. Because atheists and agnostics do not acknowledge the divinity of Christ, they must necessarily reject the divine origins of the laws and teachings He gave us. Those laws that are not objectively and universally true will invariably become subject to abrogation or alteration. It cannot be helped. These people, whether they know it or not, are Trojan horses. Shut the gates, I say, and shut them tight.
That seems to be describing a different class of people than cultural catholics and those who support the church without believing in it.
>>419511
>But thats the thing they choose to follow the church and help support that because they think it has a benifical effect on society
That's all well and good for atheists who only care about the Church insofar as the Church has a "beneficial impact on society." That they are actively seeking to overthrow the divine order, as Pius XI alleged, is of no interest to them. But it is of interest to me as a devout Catholic. People who are willing to undermine the Church for secular interests (or any interests, for that matter) cannot be called anything other than enemies.
>That seems to be describing a different class of people than cultural catholics and those who support the church without believing in it.
It might seem that way but they are very much one and the same. I couldn't give you figures, of course, but I suspect a very large proportion of the modernist laity is constituted by nominal Catholics.
It's worth mentioning that I don't think all of them (or perhaps even many of them) necessarily have any nefarious designs against the Church. The aforesaid allegations of a deliberate overthrow was more in reference to a specific group of people in a specific period of time. But whether deliberate or unintentional, an overthrow is an overthrow and the result is the same.
In any case, this only half the equation. The other is the modernist clergy, and that is a much more serious problem.
>>419551
What caused a modernist clergy to pop up and become active?
Also are the free masons still a special threat to the church
>>419666
What caused 'modernity in the church' was not a Masonic plot (although they did greatly accelerate the problem) but simple shift in culture. People came in as Bishops beleiving in the full divinity of the bible and the absolute rule or the church than they became disenchanted mid way through their career. Eventually it happened to enough of them to start affecting the votes.
This guy explains it well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdkxddT2Pmo
>>419862
Why didnt this happen to the Orthodox? They never believed in the aboslute rule of the church but didnt hit modernity
>>411384
No, Christian values have no validity without sincere belief
>>419862
Hes a tad unfair with his historical assement 20 mins in of thinkers like Hume and Calvin does this change?
>>419862
Just question how can he claim that the apostles accounts are objective when there is such great difference between them?
>>418951
>actually seeking and knowing God
Considering that this is impossible to begin with, I don't see why you're wary of atheists looking to convert.
Please indulge us in what you have learned about God after praying in Church.
I'm guessing literally zero.
It's reason enough to consider Christian philosophy, which can stand on its own without requiring supernatural beliefs.
>>420075
>Christian philosophy
like what?
>>420073
He should have sacrificed a goat and burned it.
Yahweh digs burnt offerings as obulation.
>>420079
Why a goat?
Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice.
>>417238
Both are correlated with low intelligence.
>>420078
Stop pretending retarded, philosophy and Christian theology have been together for centuries. All of scholasticism is christian philosophy, and Augustine's brand of neoplatonism too.
>>420085
The Jews used to sacrifice all kinds of animals to Yahweh. The Christian claim is that they don't need to any more because yahweh sacrificed himself to himself.
That doesn't mean Yahweh wouldn't still like a bird or a sheep or a goat sacrificed from time to time, Yahweh would probably love that old school shit.
>>420092
In what sense is it "Christian philosophy" if it's theology?
Talking about what kind of color your superduper archangel's wings have is not philosophy.
>>420093
Fair enough.
>>420092
Theology is not divorced from supernatural claims and any philosophy that is purely secular is not 'Christian philosophy', even if it was done by a Christian.
>>420095
>I don't have any idea what I'm talking about
If every philosophy that has to do with theism is theology, what exactly are we left with? That includes most of western phil.
>>420098
>If every philosophy that has to do with theism
Most philosophy is literally zero to do with theism. Which is why we have the word theology you literal mongoloid.
>>411384
No, because a great deal of what passes for Christian values today has nothing to do with Christian scripture.
You're just a reactionary.
>>420106
lol kill yourself
the vast majority of phil has been based on some ultimate being, confirmed for not reading any philosophy prior to enlightenment ever
>>420110
>the vast majority of phil has been based on some ultimate being
Then it is not divorced from supernatural claims.
>>417651
The same can be said for terrible actions commited in the name of supposedly helping people or an atheistic (Not even explicitly counter to religion, atheist) greater good/ideal.
I'm an atheist and I can see that flaw.
>>420119
By atheistic do you merely mean secular?
Fighting a war to defend democracy is killing someone for a non-religious based point. Does that make it atheistic?
>>419021
It wouldn't matter.
The Sanhedrin can't convict a man by his own confession.
The only lawyer he'd need is the one who can spot how much of a mistrial the entire Gospel account is.
>>420125
Secular is probably better yes but atheism also includes religions without god and he mentioned "in the name of god" instead of just "in the name of religion".
If you are defending democracy then that is atheist.
It doesn't mean that it's motivated by atheism or that all atheists defend democracy it just means that it's not a theistic goal.
>>420148
>Secular is probably better yes but atheism also includes religions without god
Well it would be more accurate to say there are some religions in which atheism is acceptable as a component rather than those religions coming under the umbrella of atheism.
And most people in the West that would define themselves as atheist refute other superstitious religious belief systems as well, even if technically they don't involve worship of god(s).
>It doesn't mean that it's motivated by atheism or that all atheists defend democracy it just means that it's not a theistic goal.
So any action good or bad that is not connected with a belief in god is atheistic in nature? And if it is merely atheistic in nature and not motivated by atheism then how does that compare to killing people because you are motivated by a belief god wants you to?
>>420157
>not him but...
>most people in the West that would define themselves as atheist refute other superstitious religious belief systems as well
What you mean is that most atheists are also empiricists.
>any action good or bad that is not connected with a belief in god is atheistic in nature
Well, yeah. Just like any concept not connected to color is colorless in nature. You can have an atheistic motivation and be a theist. If you're Catholic, and go fight a war because a nation is using slavery and your govt. doesn't like that - you are fighting a war for atheistic reasons while being a theist.
>>420157
>And most people in the West that would define themselves as atheist refute other superstitious religious belief systems as well, even if technically they don't involve worship of god
Regardless of what atheism has come to mean it is simply the absence of belief in gods.
An action can be atheist when it is not theist because that is just what atheism is.
An action can be atheist or theist in nature but be motivated by any number of reasons.
Theism is naturally easy to pick out since it is a concrete reason.
Atheism is not a concrete reason to do anything, possibly the ideal of atheism, but not atheism itself since it is just a lack of belief.
So it does not compare at all.
Though I fear this argument is getting away from me in terms of depth, I merely wished to state that "When you believe your actions are justified by a god, suddenly every action, ever atrocity, becomes possible" was true for motivations that were not theistic or religious in nature.
>>420207
>What you mean is that most atheists are also empiricists.
I mean non-superstitious, Empiricism is a specific school of philosophical thought.
>Well, yeah. Just like any concept not connected to color is colorless in nature. You can have an atheistic motivation and be a theist. If you're Catholic, and go fight a war because a nation is using slavery and your govt. doesn't like that - you are fighting a war for atheistic reasons while being a theist.
I can buy that, but the speicifc post that start this discussion was his post here >>420119
So I appreciate you are just replying to what I just said without the full context of the discussion but presumably you aren't claiming that a Catholic going to war for a non-religious reason is literally motivated by atheism, which was the point.
>>420216
>Regardless of what atheism has come to mean it is simply the absence of belief in gods.
>An action can be atheist when it is not theist because that is just what atheism is.
>An action can be atheist or theist in nature but be motivated by any number of reasons.
>Theism is naturally easy to pick out since it is a concrete reason.
>Atheism is not a concrete reason to do anything, possibly the ideal of atheism, but not atheism itself since it is just a lack of belief.
>So it does not compare at all.
I entirely agree with all of this, killing for god because you are motivated by a belief in god i.e. theism does not make it correct that killing for a non-religious reason is killing for atheism.
>>420217
No he's right.
When I said atheistic "greater good" or "ideal" I just meant an "ideal" or a "greater good" that wasn't theistic.
I said that it wasn't just one that was "just counter to religion" to rule out an explicit eradication of theism in the name of atheism as the only possible atheistic "greater good/ideal".
>>420290
The flaw with >>417651 that I claimed to have was that you could justify any atrocity or action with reasons that weren't god related.
Everything that is not theistic is atheistic.
It's a matter of definition.
I should have just used secular, it would have left open every single religion which does not have believe in god(s) but at least it could not be misinterpreted quite as much.
>>420112
Philosophy never was divorced from supernatural claims.
>>417306
>Christianity is intolerant and bigoted, so it doesn't surprise me at all that a bunch of retarded racists are Christians.
Of course, but only white male Christians.
>>420376
>what is metaphysical naturalism
>>421180
God designed nature, it is impossible to not be a theist
>>419862
That man is fairly hypocritical, for him disobedience is great thing when it leads to his views and reason is only to be used when it confirms or leads to his existing views. Once those are met obedience is a virtue and reason is dangerous.
Kind of funny how he mocks Hume only to confirm Humes ideas in his own conduct
>>411384
No, because the Christian values didn't originate from Christianity and aren't exclusive to Christianity.
>>422843
Where did they originate from?
Why is this board such absolute, pseudo-intellectual shit?
What the fuck.
>>424236
>writes a shitpost complaining about lack of quality content
>>411384
Nope because unbelievers converting just because of christian values being good will corrupt the faith. Which has already happened to most mainline national churches as people just stay in the church because their parents were in it too, even if they don't believe.
You can follow "christian values" even without tainting the church with your faithless presence.
>>417651
>Zach Weiner
lol of course the creator of an anti-christianity comic would be jewish
>>424558
Death won't be like being deprived of movies. You won't even exist to know you are deprived of movies, or ever saw a movie.
>>411384
Christian values do not exist in the sense that they originate from the Christian faith.
They are common bourgeois values projected onto Christianity.
True Christian values are “stone people to death who do not respect the Sabbath”, “offer your daughter up for rape to protect a male guest” and the like.
>>424570
Why?
Christ was a Jew. And I bet you are curcomsized, which makes you a Jew too. And a Faggot.
>>424570
Don't worry lad, death won't be that bad, cheer up. You won't even exist to know it has happened.
>>424570
He's an atheist
If you don't believe wholeheartedly in the Nicene Creed and want more than anything to live the life Christ desires for you then I beg you to please stay away.
>>424236
>thinking this is 'pseudointellectual'
Sorry to break it down to You, but you're just stupid as fuck. That is all.
If You Want real pseudointellectualism (notice the pun?) then go to the next positivist/poststructuralist/critical theory thread.
>>425918
Quantum mechanics says I have a soul
>>424236
Adding humanities was a mistake.
>>411384
If you want the values it's reason enough to adopt those values. fuck man, You don't have to join a religion to be nice
>>426753
But how could you stay motivated to follow ethics that are baseless?
>>427305
The only base you need is being an empathetic individual willing to interact with society. Religion has nothing to base their ethics upon except infallibility.
>>411384
It comes down to this OP. Do you think that your conversion to xtianity and the actions that entails will further the goals of these 'xtian values' that you already believe in. Personally, I think that my conversion to xtianity would not further the goal of the values i believe in(xtian or otherwise), so I do not associate with the church. I don't have genuine faith, so there is no reason for me to if I don't think it will further my goals. Sounds like you don't have faith either(fuck yeah misery loves company) but you should make the decision of whether joining the church and acting devout would further your goals, not anyone else.
>>412706
Go away Hitchens.
>>428529
>implying slave morality isn't real. This is the transition from unicellular to multicellular life all over again, but this time christian memes are the signal proteins regulating individuals to serve higher functions.
>>420290
>Why even use the word atheistic at all?
To make us think of communism, obviously, because unlike democratic countries they didn't restrict horrors to foreigners, minorities, and the mentally ill.
>>427598
>being an empathetic individual
Yes, but we were talking about following Christian values
>>420087
This. Look it up.
It's no surprise that /b/, /pol/ and /r9k/ are the most racist and religious, but that /sci/, /lit/ and /his/ are much less so. Even then, Christians on the latter boards tend to have actual knowledge of theology, stormfags just bleat "Muh white man religion".
>>422212
Nah bro, you've got it all wrong. Nobody REALLY believes in God, you're just afraid of death :^)
