So from what I understand, Turkish people came from somewhere, entered the Eastern Roman Empire and sacked Constantinople. There, they established the Ottomon Empire, right?
In other words - is modern day Turkey originally Ethnic European land? Or was it just the Western side of Turkey that was Ethnic native European land?
Did the Kurds inhabit the Eastern side?
Also, where did Ethnic Kurds originate from?
i believe turks are from central asia
>>368377
>is modern day Turkey originally Ethnic European land?
For the western side, yes, if you consider the Ancient Greeks to be European in a modern sense. The eastern side was dominated by nations in the far east like Persia.
>>368377
Anatolia was originally Greek, yes. The Turkic people came from Central Asia, and with the successful invasion of Anatolia by the Turkic Seljuks, Turks migrated there and established it as their new homeland.
>>368427
Well they have the American attitude of exterminating natives.
>>368377
Kurds are a native group.
Turks are Altaic, they come from central Asia most likely the western side of it. Linguistic relatives are the likes of the Mongols and Tungusic peoples, also sometimes people add the Koreans and Japanese into that but c'mon son. And they moved further and further west, mostly conquering until settling into the Ottoman empire.
Also....
After WW1, why the fuck didn't the West do a massive campaign to displace the ethnic Turks, and retake and re-populate it with Europeans??
Back thenext political correctness didn't exist, it was their last chance to do so - what gives?
>>368427
>"hey bro we're all immigrants"
>Turks
Har.
>>368427
No, but Greeks do.
>>368445
Wasn't really in anyone's interest: the Turks had been a crumbling empire for years, not a threat
Anatolia is not European: why undertake such an operation?
Plus there were a bunch of Greeks there already, though that would change soon
The Allies had plans to divide Turkey into occupation zones and Greek nationalists/irredentists wanted to outright take territory, but then Ataturk happened
>>368445
The Greeks were probably planning to do exactly that, but they never had the chance. Though the Ottoman government was essentially a Western puppet by the point, it was replaced by Ataturk's republic, which then went on to defeat the Greeks and their allies and eliminate the European power in Turkey.
>>368456
Its a little bit unclear of their origins. Their language is in the Iranian family so they could have been Persian nomads that settled in a little bit more west.
>>368445
not worth the effort if you can just place a western oriented ruler as the leader of turkey
>>368377
That is incorrect. The Ottoman state started as a small successor state of the Seljuk Empire on the eastern side of the bosphorus strait. They then conquered the other successor states in Anatolia, took care of the Slavs and Greeks in the Balkans, then actually captured Constantinople. Anatolia had originally been what we now call Anatolian (an indo-european branch linguistically), some Greek colonies, Armenians and some Semites and even a Celtic branch. The Anatolians were severely crippled by the sea peoples, especially the Hittites. They were eventually conquered by the Persians, Alexander and Romans which became Byzantium in the end. By the middle ages the Anatolians had been Hellenized and Christened. Kurds are an Iranic people who probably moved west from northwestern Iran. They have supplanted Armenian dominance of east Anatolia due to the, ahem, demographic weakening of Armenians in the previous century. The process of Turkification in Anatolia is said to have begun after the Battle of Manzikert
Former exchange student in Turkey who loves Turan stuff here
The Sultanate tell of Rum and the Ottomans were around before the sacking of Constatinople.
The original inhabitants were called Anatolians eg Hittites, Luwidians, etc. They were about as European as a Persia or Armenian
>Did the Kurds inhabit the Eastern side?
This can get tricky. The closest I can think of would be maybe. If wee are talking 1000s to 1500s then yes they would have lived there. They would have most likely moved alongside the Turks during the Ilkhanate or the Rum sultanate.
If we are talking Roman era tho they would most likely have been Armenian, Persian, Mitani,and Assyrian
>>368445
The Young Turks and the nationalistic resurgence ruined the Greek plans after it strengthened and unified the Turkic people
>>368663
>Turkic
*Turkish
>>368445
Because the great powers were concerned with making petty gains of their own which hampered any serious efforts, like always. And dealing with the Turk revolt wasn't worth the effort right after WW1.
At the end of the day the Brits finally got what they wanted in the Ottoman Empire: everybody lost.
>Ethnic European land?
What do you even mean by this?
Yes, before the Turks came, the people had been of Greek/Roman culture and identity for several millenia, more so in some parts than others, but the Central Asian genetic input is relatively small, and the modern Turkish population has far more in common with the medieval Roman population than it does with the original Oghuz from the steppes.
>>368427
Yes. All Turks autistically believe their grandfathers were from central asian steppes.
>>368427
>Do they have a "hey bro we're all immigrants" attitude that Americans have?
What do you mean?
Turks have a serious MUH CENTRAL ASIAN HERITAGE thing going on.
But Turks hate immigrants to Turkey. Even Arab Muslim immigrants.
>>368663
>The Young Turks
The fucking liberal YouTube channel?
>>369628
No, Ottoman pan-turkist political party who genocided armenians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Union_and_Progress
It's not true that Turkey was simply Greek before the Turks.
There were a lot of Greek diaspora in Turkey and some Greek kingdoms. Parts of Anatolia over the years have been ruled by Celts, Persians, Romans, Semites, Scythians, and of course the Hittites originally. And the Turks last.
There's a reason the Turkish are some of the most mixed race people on earth.
Pic related, the different male haplogroups present in the Turkish population.
Turks are greeks who were turkified,
and most of "greeks" of anatolia were native anatolians, phyrgians,luwians,lycians,hittites etc who were hellenized after the invasion of alexander.
anatolians are indo european, though there were native anatolinas pre hittites also, Hurians for example.
>>369639
This. Turkishness is more of a cultural/linguistic identity that has subsumed various races.
>>368427
It's more like Hungary. The lands of the Carpathian basin were originally inhabited by Germans and Slavs, then the Magyar nomads came in the 9th century and settled the land themselves.
>>368445
>let's just displace 25 million people, no problem right?
>>368388
Kind of, they're from this bit.
>>368506
>Do not impose America's genocidal campaign with how things worked in the old world.
Was it just Andrew Jackson?
>>368412
>Anatolia was originally Greek, yes.
The persians colonised it before the greeks did, excluding ionia (the western coast). So the iranians have a greater claim to it than greece, if you the oldest claim wins. Which seems a bit of a silly way to establish legitimacy.
>>370754
>The persians colonised it before the greeks did
proofs?
>>368377
Turks came from Central Asia and Turkified the Anatolian populations; who were Armenian, Greek, and leftovers of ancient Anatolian peoples.
They established the Ottoman Empire before we took Constantinople.
Sort of. Eastern Anatolia is more Armenian.
Not back then, no.
A mix of Iranic and Mesopotamian peoples.
>>368377
Aren't most Turks basicly Brainwashed Greeks with only 20% being descendants of the Asiatic Ottomans?
>>370791
Everybody is a brainwashed something else.
Yes, it was inhabited by Thracian tribes such as the Phrygians.
>>368377
Turks come from Mongolia. At some point of history (already AD) they started a big migration in a lot of directions (you have turks in north siberia) but the one that matters here is the one that goes into Central Asia.
From Central Asia, the Seljuk turks conquered basically all the muslim world from Anatolia to Afghanistan in the 11th century. You have some important turkic dynasties in the middle east before that too but they don't interest us now. The thing is that the Seljuks collapsed soon.
One of the successor states was the Sultanate of Rum, ruled by actual Seljukid turks. Rum here means Anatolia (the land of the romans). The Sultanate of Rum declined and by the 13th-14th century what you have are small divided emirates. One of those emirates was ruled by Osman, who founded the Osmanli dynasty that would unify the region. Osmanli and Ottoman are synonymous. From here, just look at the map and see how they expanded.
Most of the ottoman empire was never turkified. In fact, most turkic empires never managed to acculturate the population (not like most of them tried). Anatolia is an exception, but still the turks were too small in numbers to become a majority. Greeks, armenians and other anatolian peoples lived there and most were assimilated to start talking turkish, maybe because the anatolian steppe was suited for the traditional pastoralist turkish way of life. Kurdish majority in eastern anatolia is a young thing, they come mostly from the iranian and iraqi part.
>>370754
They never colonized it, they conquered it. Different thing.
Anyways, Anatolia was neither iranian or greek. Anatolian peoples were a thing before either of them arrived, the language group just doesn't exist anymore.
>>368377
Also, the fact that it was inhabitated by greeks doesn't make it european. Ancient greeks didn't consider Ionia to be european.
>>370844
The Anatolian coast was uniquely Greek since antiquity.
>>370857
That's but a small fraction of Anatolia that was historically disconnected from the rest of the peninsula, though.
>>368492
>The Anatolians were severely crippled by the sea peoples
>sea peoples
Seriously, who the fuck were these guys?
>>370863
That small fraction was and is pretty rich
>>370965
>What does that have to do with anything?
Because cities are what truly matter senpai
>>370965
How do we know they weren't one ethnicity lost to time because they didn't write?
>>370768
This is the max extend of the achaemenid persian empire.
Greeks only had up to the red line before the persians.
>>371045
Do you know what colonize means?
>>371057
To settle among and establish control over.
They did the latter first.
>>371068
proofs?
they defeated a weakened eastern empire in the (still humiliating) battle of manzikert which allowed them to enter and settle central Anatolia(modern turkey),it took them a long while to beat the byzantines (they got owned like the rest of the east by the mongols whereas the byzantines escaped unscaved...unfortunately the crusaders sacked Constantinople which did the same job)
the ottomans were originally hired mercenarys of the eastern empire used to fight other turks/invaders(which mean't they were "deployed" on the European side of the bosphorus....so when they turned on the byzantines they could easily overrun their forces in thrace and surround the city on both sides).after 50 years the city finally fell and a new empire was declared....if not for the fourth crusade we would probably still have the eastern empire today *sigh*
coastal turkey is still European (greek/pontic converts perticualy black sea region since they weren't sent back to Greece in the population exchange),modern turkey has about 30-40 million kurds in it and millions of pontic greeks(don't have exact numbers on that)
the kurds are native to the mountains of Anatolia(southern/eastern areas) and are basically white rather than Turkic or arab (similar to the assyrians)
oh and the turks are native to the steppe(Russia) east of the mongol lands(we think atleast)
>>368445
they did,but Ataturk, future founder of modern turkey beat the greeks and French forcing them to withdraw
>>368445
It was planned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea
Then ataturk happened
>>368456
I don't think so
it's actually really hard to build a state in the region,historical and today,for as far back as recorded history goes the region has been split between two or more powers who don't want a Kurdish state
examples,hittites/Egypt/Persia/romans ect
>>371093
My bad, if that pic is accurate here's a revised line for greek settlement.
As for the colonisation, persians had anatolia for over 200 years, and people in the empire had free movement to settle wherever they wanted. Anatolia was fertile, and relatively sparsely populated. There would be a huge incentive for relatively well-off persians to move and settle in newly conquered territory, and there were roads built across the empire, along which they could have moved there with ease.
I'd love to provide you with sources, but unfortunately the persian empire is very poorly studied compared to some places. In general, archeology has only been feasible for relatively well-off countries, and it's been conducted relatively recently, for the most part in europe/america and other wealthy places, and its colonies, back when it had them. Since Iran was never colonised by the west, and since its been embargoed for several decades, it didn't inherit archeological findings, nor did it had the luxury of making its own progress in archeology. For the most part, there is relatively little information on its empires compared to other places. Unfortunately, they are not as well documented as the ancient greeks. I think most of this applies to turkey also, although of course it wasn't embargoed.
So yeah, I guess all I have in lieu of evidence is an explanation and an appeal to common sense.
>>371303
you don't have to say relatively that many times.
>>371025
>How do we know they weren't one ethnicity lost to time because they didn't write?
The peoples in the list given by the egyptians are hard to merge into one single big group to be honest. We identify some of the list peoples as western mediterranean from the area of Corsica and Sardinia, for example, but we can't put them all there.
At least by the time they arrived to Egypt, Sea Peoples were not a single people/ethnicity/culture.
There's also the fact that 19th century historiography coined the term to describe everyone in the migration, when the egyptian inscriptions use it only for three specific peoples. Among them, the sherden, who were almost surely ancient sardinians from what we call the nuragic civilization.
>>368506
Butthurt Turk detected. Admit it, Turks are violent and ambitious with their violence just like the west.
Reminder that Anatolia was 25-30% Christian by the end of 19th century.
Reminder that today there are no Christians in Turkey.
>>370809
>>Haploshit.
So what, it's a good indicator of the different groups that have made their way into Turkey. Haplogroups are best for just that, migrations.
>>371376
So they were a coalition of invaders, like the crusades?
>There's also the fact that 19th century historiography
Isn't historiography the history of the study of history? So wouldn't the correct way to say that be "19th century study of history" or "historiographically, 19th century history"?
>>371396
Haplogroups are good to find out about a population's oldest paternal ancestor.
>>371418
Wikipedia says "Historiography is the study of the methodology of historians in developing history as an academic discipline, and by extension is any body of historical work on a particular subject".
But in my language I've pretty much always seen it used with a meaning closer to the second definition.
>>369625
>MUH CENTRAL ASIAN HERITAGE
Holy fuck this so much.
They literally taught it us in history lesson in school.
It never occurred to me how ridiculous it is back then. Being half-German anyway, I didn't have much investment in it maybe? Or maybe because my Turkish father is a rather "typical" Turk so it was no problem? In any case, a Kurdish child, Balkanian child, Arabic child, or otherwise "not "truly" Turkish" child (who is aware of his heritage) listening to those history lessons in school must feel horrible...
It's sad.
>>371639
>(who is aware of his heritage)
>his
Well shit, I gotta check my gender assumptions. And I've been reading feminism since a whole fucking year now, still making such mistakes.
