ITT: standpoints that trigger you
>consciousness is just an illusion, we're all just atoms and stuff
>communism is good in theory
>>361004
>consciousness isn't just an emergent property of our pattern
>>361011
oh shit, that one especially
>hitler was a racist
>>361011
the scary part is most westerners justify this as the reason they dont want it
>>361028
But he was.
>>361042
So was everyone of the time. People trying to highlight this point as if racism wasn't the normative behavior.
>consciousness is magic we can't just be made of atoms.
>>361052
That doesn't make him not a racist.
Relativist pls go.
>Someone claims people who his opinion use logic and reason like logic and reason will only ever lead you to one conclusion on complex issues
>Morality is objective but it's not the morality that hundreds of other fags have claimed is objective, it just happens to be the one that appeals to me on an emotional level
>>361071
>starting from a supposed material world and then describing consciousness in its terms instead of starting from the actual experience of consciousness instead
>we took the native americans land
>therefore we should import everyone
>>361119
Why wouldn't I?
You can shoot someone in the head and kill them and as far as we can tell their consciousness is gone. You could gouge your own eyes out right now and change your whole perception of consciousness. Someone could preform surfery on your brain and change your IQ and your personality.
What have you got other than your own perception? You don't perceive light as physical, yet no one would seriously claim it isn't anymore. That pepe stored on your hard drive is nothing but a bunck of electronic infomation with nothing you can perceive as physical but when you posted it you didn't say "fugg, it must be magic mang".
>nationalism didn't exist in any way, shape or form before the 18th century and was exclusively created by the bourgeoisie
>>361156
this one is horrifyingly common
![1376022865657[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/VCd8e8E.jpg "1376022865657[1].jpg")
>>361020
> The Chinese room doesn't show that functionalism is bull
> The Chinese room is arguing that only biological entities can be conscious
>>361173
I wish, most commoners seem to think that nationalism (which they use as a synonym for supremacy and imperialism) started at peak levels and decreased over the centuries because it's 2015 come on!
turning any thread about historical group of warriors into a race debate
>Islam is inherently violent/all muslims are the same/etc.
>>361192
islam IS inherently violent and even their prophet was a warlord
>beauty is totally subjective, we should lower artistic standards to pander to the retards who think a couple of streaks of menstrual blood are just as worthy of being hung in a musuem as the girl with a pearl earring
>i will regard cross referenced documents from a dozen countries, dozens of censuses and thousands of testimonies as false, because these two specific details dont check out
>i will only hold a certain short period of time to these criteria, because of my booism, otherwise i'd have to doubt the majority of our understanding of history,which certainly wouldnt hold up under suchstrict criteria
>>361225
That's weird, because your implied position triggers me harder than anything else
>It's somehow possible to have a consistent, objective "artistic standard"
>imposing such standards would somehow prevent creativity you don't like,
>this is somehow a good thing, and not a selfish baby attitude to things you don't like existing
>"beauty" is not only somehow quantifiable, but the only worthy goal of art
>"skill" is important to art, its totally a competition
>there's some sort of central art authority and not myriad individuals doing their own thing
>you could achieve the same aesthetic goal of a minimalist piece of art as with some traditional painting
just stop.
>>361119
>>361290
>the fact that a urinal doesn't even approach, say, laocoon and his sons as an artistic achievement needs to be backed up scientifically for me to accept it
also, standards =/= censorship
sorry about your gay taste
>>361119
fucking this goddamn
>>361004
Jesus mythicism triggers the hell out of me because it's anti-intellectualism coming from a group of people that really should know better.
>>361004
>being triggered by the truth
Are you by chance from tumblr?
>>361156
>nationalism existed before language unifications
>>361321
I'm not implying it's censorship per se, but you talk of "lower artisitic standards" as if that has had some sort of effect, thus implying that having stricter standards would have an effect. what would that effect be to you? if it doesn't prevent the type of art you deem so awful from being made, then whats the point of the standards anyways? that that stuff isn't called art? does it matter?
I don't need scientific backing for my beliefs about art, and that's precisely the point I'm making- that it's nothing other than personal taste, so trying to codeify it and give it some higher meaning is self serving and retarded.
>>361341
>Not claiming that your standards are objective standards so you can feel better about yourself
lmao faggot
>the crusades were justified/unjustified
>>361324
>Jesus mythicism
What makes said belief anti-intellectual?
>Labour is exploitation of the worker
>>361004
>America has no culture
Are people just blind to American culture because of its ubiquity?
>>361718
Do people actually believe that? I thought it was just banter like saying the French always surrender
>>361459
*wage labour
ftfy, and it is true by definition: if you pay the worker the full price of the product he has made, you're not making a profit, therefore you have to pay him less. Which is what exploitation means.
>>361718
>Are people just blind to American culture because of its ubiquity?
Most likely, no place has ever given me less of a culture shock than the US.
>>361421
It stands wildly in contrast to the universally accepted opinions and practices of historians of the Ancient world.
It takes about 5 minutes for Jesus Mythers to start denouncing the entire field of Ancient History as nothing more than a conspiracy to publish Christian propaganda, can't trust anyone in authority, etc. etc.
>>361421
You're right, anti-intellectualism was probably too strong of a word to use there. For whatever reason, though, Christ mythers have a tendency to invent conspiracy theories about why academics who study the bible (and historians in general) refuse to acknowledge their "discoveries" - they're all Christians, they're all just afraid of reprisal from their departments and colleagues, etc.
>>361135
My biggest literal trigger as a registered member of the Choctaw tribe is this:
Native Americans had no concept of land ownership
Fuck right off, you are speaking of multiple cultures and if my ancestors had no concept of land ownership the why did they A. Fight encroachment and B. Why do you say whites stole something from them they believed they did not possess
>>361004
dumb frogposter
>>361772
I'm not a Jesus myther or the person you replied to, however.... The Jesus mythers basically say that the sources in the bible are so shit they cannot be trusted and the other sources for Jesus are insignificant. I disagree with their position but it is academically justified.
They are right in that the sources contained in the bible are fucking dreadful as sources and this whole, they are just as good as any other ancient source, is a silly Christian meme.
They are wrong in the sense that the other sources about Jesus are just about significant enough to say he existed and the biblical sources, while absolutely fucking terrible as historical sources, are just about good enough to say they were inspired by some religious teacher. They are however highly unlikely to be factual about the details and contradict each other and other, better, sources.
>the human specie is characterized by its capacity to negate one's instincts
>any metaphysical stance is acceptable since there is no way to refute it
>there is one single human nature that is the same for everyone and never change
>jealousy is necessarily bad since the only thing we should care about is our own life and perspectives, and others people being more successful than us is none of our business
>the goal of life is to be happy
>monogamy is a social construct, human beings are polygamous/polyamorous by nature
>"races don't exist"
>it's more important in history to study the societies than the great events of the past
>ancient Rome is more interesting/fascinating than ancient Greece
>the katana wasn't the main weapon of samurais
>if one were to return into the past, he would have to kill a creature or to move an object to change the future
>one day, thanks to science, we will be able to upload our mind into a machine
>>361718
>>361728
>>361739
People who actually believe it would usually say that white America has no culture, that American whiteness is defined by homogeneity and flexibility of culture etc etc. This is a real position staked out and doggedly held by some in academia, not just banter. The American academic anti-racism milieu is often sadly unaware of how American its views can be.
Yes, it basically is blindness to the ubiquity of it, but also the sheer variety of product available in America today. Historical styles in all products lose their distinctness from modern invention as some of the latter blurs history and fantasy. See for example the 'contemporary conformist' aesthetic and other recent fetishizations of 'old-fashionedness' minus the oldness. The real past becomes only one possible past surrounded by impostor pseudo-historical styles.
Of course, this has been going on for a long time now, I love Arts and Crafts but it's basically same shit different century
>>361883
>>the katana wasn't the main weapon of samurais
But that's true, you faggot
>>361718
i have a college class that tells us white people have no culter
>>361892
>People who actually believe it would usually say that white America has no culture, that American whiteness is defined by homogeneity and flexibility of culture etc etc. This is a real position staked out and doggedly held by some in academia, not just banter. The American academic anti-racism milieu is often sadly unaware of how American its views can be.
That's an interesting position. Sources?
>humans aren't born innately bisexual
>>361883
Eastern Roman Empire > Ancient Greece desu
>>361004
>If we were more brutal, didn't have such lighthearted rules of engagements, weren't focused on "winning hearts and minds" it would be easy to crush ISIS/Al-Queda/any given insurgency.
Yeah, heavy handed tactics really worked for the KMT, the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the Nazis in Europe.
>humans should embrace animalistic impulses like sex and eating because they're "natural"
>People can't be truly against liberalism, they either don't understand it or just want power
>>361947
The more mainline formulation is that whiteness is an amorphous, shifting social construct that expands to encompass whoever is dominant.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/cared/whiteness
But like most concepts related to social construction, a simplistic "X is socially constructed, so there is no X" version gets floated around a lot. I would guess actual academic writing on that position is rarer.
>democracy is not perfect but it's the best thing we've had
>>361225
>it's only art if I approve of it
>>362097
I am not doubting you, I just want to know your opinion or where/what you are brining this from
>>362159
Snake venom is natural, but it also kills humans, humanity has separated itself from nature for a reason
>>362097
>there is an opposite of natural behavior
>>362122
Whats been better friend?
>>362225
Aristocratic republic or monarchy for starters.
>>362238
Care to explain why?
>>361324
>No proofs of mythological figure ever existing
>BUT MUH APPEAL TO AUTHORITY
Jesus apologists are the reason nobody takes humanities seriously.
>>361883
>the katana wasn't the main weapon of samurais
I was under the impression it was the Naginata in actual battle and that their swords were like their side arms, but in society were basically their kind of symbol of power or something.
>>361011
No?
>>362238
top fucking kek
I hope this is sarcasm
>>361004
It's not really a standpoint, more of a viewpoint, but every time I see a damn Jew on here saying "wah wah wah, you can't believe Church tradition about the state of the Jewish religion, you can only believe my propaganda about who did what in Judea" it makes my teeth itch.
They just do it to try to discredit things, stir up trouble.
>God is real
>conservatism is right wing/liberalism is left wing
>democracy is the only good system of government
>>361156
The latter is horseshit but the former is spot on. Nationalism didn't really exist in the middle ages.
>X atrocity was justified because Y event happened hundreds of years before any of the perpetrators were even born
>>362588
The Hundred Years War would argue otherwise.
>>362634
>French dynasty A fighting against French dynasty B
What's nationalist about that? I hope you're not getting your opinions about this period from that shitty Crecy comic lmao
>>361119
this exactly
the amount of fucking people who don't understand really pisses me the fuck off. like the hear one school lesson on atom theory and throw all common sense out the window.
like fucking hell retards, atoms are so CLEARLY constituted by conscious experience. THEY ARE MENTAL OBJECTS. THEY DO NOT EXIST INDEPENDENT OF MIN GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEAD
>>362666
Which is of course why the Duke of Bedford issued a ban on referring to the two sides as the "English" and the French. Which is why the Plantagenets had been based in England for hundreds of years, spoke English, didn't trust the feudal levies they received in France and preferred to rely upon soldiers from England, and why the Armagnacs wanted a dual monarchy after Agincourt, with the same person holding the two crowns but keeping the kingdoms sepearate.
Truly, they didn't think there was a difference between Englishness and Frenchness [/sarcasm]
>>362617
I would even reduce this to
>X atrocity was justified because Y
>>361004
>ancient people were all barbarous savages and modern man is superior and `civilized`
>ancient people didn't invent/do many for the great things they did, i.e. pyramids built by ayyylmaos, couldn't into antekytherian mechanism.
Every.Fucking.Time The ancient weren`t gods by a long sting but they knew and did some incredible shit. Just because we can't conceive/match it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Especially when there's evidence it did right in your ill critically thinking face.
>>361924
Well to be fair, there isn't really a "white" culture. There are European cultures and their colonies like Australia, America, Canada etc. but even then the "white" culture in these countries is pretty much just the dominant national culture, and the culture of ethnic minorities are defined as subcultures within it.
>>361963
I'm bisexual but I think this viewpoint is smug and impossible to really verify. Being able to change sexualities (which I think is possible, although rarely by choice) doesn't mean someone was "bisexual all along". It means they've changed. Likewise, I find it hard to believe asexuality doesn't exist or can be explained in terms of bisexuality, since it makes sense that if some individuals are hypersexual some are going to have virtually no sex drive at all.
>>361225
I agree. A golden turd is still a turd. A fatass naked and covered in honey or a dot on the wall is not art. Especially not when compared to works like Buddhist stone/lacquer statues or the Farnese Hercules
>>361883
>the katana wasn't the main weapon of samurais
Katana is a generic term for any curved sword in Japanese you retard. And it WASN'T the main weapon they used, just the most prestigious. The bow and polearms were much more commonly used.
>>362760
Yeah, I notice a lot of people seem to think of ancient societies or even more contemporary tribal societies as somehow incapable of rational thought or anything other than wearing furs and throwing spears. Its really stupid, people have been incredibly smart for along time, its not like we evolved into some super intelligent species in the last thousand years.
>>362811
what definition of art do you propose, then? whats the cutoff for you? also, what do you think the purpose of making such a distinction is?
>>362811
Why can't art invoke emotions like disgust or an appreciation of simplicity/minimalism? Seems like you're just using a version of muh feels to argue against muh feels.
>>361076
Based anon is able to see some semblance of his own cognitive biases, and the frustration in people assuming their side is inherently correct before debating even begins.
>>361156
Tribalism is older than the nation state, but that's not what nationalism is you mong.
>>362290
It isn't good in theory either as it doesn't take in account that people are naturally inclined to be greedy and self serving.
Its even worse in practice.
>>361883
>monogamy is a social construct ect
Elaborate? I feel polygamy is the most natural for of human relation desu
>>362841
I'm not him, but there's nothing saying it can't. It should. "Bad" emotions should still be displayed.
The problem is "it's all subjective, beauty is in the eye of the beholder :^)" is used as a copout to handwave away the whole "talent" and "dedication" and "giving a shit about how your art looks" thing that so many people try to do away with.
Pic related is some ugly guy wretching because his wine is shitty. This isn't a pretty picture. But the artist still put time and effort into it. He cared how it turned out. He was knowledgeable not only in actually putting paint on the canvas but also about how people look, how shadows play, how emotions are displayed, and so on and so forth.
This piece is better than someone smearing their feces on a canvas and calling it "art".
>>362863
And when people are saying "nationalism is a modern thing" they aren't talking about the conflict between nation states, they're insinuating that people have never felt any common bond between each other based on language/ethnicity/culture/location until recently.
>>362874
I understand your position, but I think making art about "talent" is not only subjective in itself, but also kind of silly. Your points about dedication and how it looks are moot, as simplistic artists can be equally devoted and care about how their work looks. The idea that its all a cynical, emotionless cash in is just false. but on the idea of talent: what is talent, precisely? It seems to be related to difficulty in a lot of peoples minds, but how does that work? is there merely a base level of challenge required to make something art? why? or is something that is harder inherently better? say there are 2 paintings are exactly the same, but one was painted in 0g by a qaudroplegic. is it better? to what degree is conceptualizing something creative a talent? furthermore, I think you're missing the ability of simple images or concepts to evoke powerful emotions. How would you suggest someone like Yves Klein better express the same ideas? should he just not have bothered making the aesthetic choices he did because they were too easy?
>>361791
>Indians had no concept of property or trade
>Indians were pacifists
>Indians worshiped a vague concept of nature consistent with modern neopaganism
>Indians were all hunter gatherers and didn't farm whatsoever
>Indians were defeated primarily because Europeans had firearms
>Indians had no sedentary settlements
>Indian cultures were all misogynistic
>White people didn't perform scalping
>>362881
No they're not, it's widely acknowledged that people identified based on religion, dynastic loyalty, language, culture and class. However, culture, ethnicity and religion were much more difficult to separate before concepts like civic nationalism emerged, and people generally identified as being from their local area instead of some wider concept of country, hence names like "Leonardo of Vinci". Do you not understand what impact the printing press had in standardizing the thousands of little dialects that existed and giving people a sense of what was happening in the wider world?
>>362958
The Labor Theory of Value is horse shit. Smelling roses would keep you from catching the flu in medieval medicine because of miasma theory.
But miasma theory is horse shit, so of course smelling roses won't keep you from getting sick just as there is no surplus value.
>>362960
I don't get what you're trying to say. I'm agreeing with you entirely. But there are people who do not, and they believe that up until the notion of nationstates came about that everyone was a "tolerant progressive" by today's standards and that no one had any self interest for whatever group (religious, tribal, ethnic, linguistic, village, etc) that they were a part of.
>>362874
>The problem is "it's all subjective, beauty is in the eye of the beholder :^)" is used as a copout to handwave away the whole "talent" and "dedication" and "giving a shit about how your art looks" thing that so many people try to do away with.
Talent is basically defined by mastering techniques that produce appreciation in people, and since what invokes appreciation varies from person to person, there's no universal or objective definition of talent. Same with "giving a shit about how your art looks". Plenty of people like how avant garde art looks, it's just that you don't. These are all very complex and roundabout ways of saying "I don't like thing."
>But the artist still put time and effort into it. He cared how it turned out. He was knowledgeable not only in actually putting paint on the canvas but also about how people look, how shadows play, how emotions are displayed, and so on and so forth.
Again, this just starts from the unfounded assumption that realism is highest form of visual art and runs from there. Somebody who doesn't care for all those details can easily find beauty in something like minimalism.
Pic related is an example of minimalistic art that IMO cleverly utilizes the concept of negative space so often ignored in traditional western art. You know what it's called? The big N.
>>362991
>But there are people who do not, and they believe that up until the notion of nationstates came about that everyone was a "tolerant progressive" by today's standards and that no one had any self interest for whatever group (religious, tribal, ethnic, linguistic, village, etc) that they were a part of.
Literally nobody fucking says this. You just interpret a critique on the timelessness of nationalism as meaning humans were historically globalist utilitarians before nationalism. It's a strawman argument.
>>362168
Snake venom isn't a natural urge/behavior
>>362792
Your future sexuality depends on your development. and even then to a level you'll still always consider people attractive to a degree, maybe not sexually.
just
>Human Nature
>>363107
>Your future sexuality depends on your development.
The biological and environmental mechanisms behind this development are not fully understood, and until they are, statements like yours are baseless speculation.
>and even then to a level you'll still always consider people attractive to a degree
This is just you projecting onto everyone. I know people who find even normal looking humans repulsive.
>maybe not sexually
Then it wouldn't be bisexuality.
>>361147
/thread.
Go home everyone.
>>363006
Disgusting.
>>363389
>muh feels, yet again
Nice objectivity bro.
>>362978
Yeah, but you didn't explain why communism doesn't work on a theoretical standpoint.
>inb4 any fucking ideology can work on a theoretical standpoint
>>363409
Not the guy you're responding to, but LTV is pretty integral to the theory of Communism. It's how you "demonstrate" that capitalist classes exploit the worker by siphoning off value from the productive arrangement without being involved in the creation of said value.
It's how you get to the predictions in Kapital that wealth is going to accumulate in the capitalist classes and away from the workers, and lead to the ultimate over-concentration of wealth that leads to the Communist Revolution.
>>361174
The Chinese room is bullshit. What is defined as biological mechanism and non-biological mechanism is pretty fucking arbitrary. The point is, consciousness requires physical mechanism.
>inb4 I'm just talking about multiple realisability
>>362686
>[/sarcasm]
This isn't reddit friend, you don't have to say you're being sarcastic, we get it
>objectivity
>subjectivity
-____-
>>361883
>the katana wasn't the main weapon of samurais
It wasn't you tard, they used naginatas and shot at each other with bows, the katana was a last resort weapon
>race is only skin deep
>>362826
>Katana is a generic term for any curved sword in Japanese you retard.
And..?
>And it WASN'T the main weapon they used, just the most prestigious.
That's pretty much the point. There is a special relationship between samurais and katanas, even if they didn't use it the most in actual battle it was their emblematic weapon. People who deny this are contrarian faggots.
>>362871
If monogamy is a social construct, then polygamy and any other way to regulate sexuality is a construct too. And the simple fact that a lot of humans tend to prefer monogamous relationships show that it's as much "natural" as anything else.
>>363848
You do know what sexual dimorphism suggests right?
>According to Daly and Wilson, "The sexes differ more in human beings than in monogamous mammals, but much less than in extremely polygamous mammals."[88]
>One proposed explanation is that human sexuality has developed more in common with its close relative the bonobo, who have similar sexual dimorphism and which are polygynandrous and use recreational sex to reinforce social bonds and reduce aggression
>>363621
>What is defined as biological mechanism and non-biological mechanism is pretty fucking arbitrary. The point is, consciousness requires physical mechanism.
The Chinese room argument doesn't argue against this, nor does it argue against multiple realisability.
>Socialism= anything that a government does
>Communism= when the government controls everything
>Anarchy= Chaos
>>363858
Even if that meant humanity had practiced polygamy/polyamory for a lot of time in the past, that wouldn't mean monogamy couldn't arise like it did and be a "social construct", as opposed to a natural behavior.
>>363873
>"social construct", as opposed to a natural behavior.
This just triggered me.
>barbarians were savages and murdered innocent TRVE ROMANS
stop this meme
>>362115
>http://www.ucalgary.ca/cared/whiteness
Man this shit is worthless. It seems like they are extrapolating very specific American neuroses and assuming they are universal human traits. Isn't this the exact opposite of their intention?
>A tribe of people equates to a nation of people
>monogamy is natural
>>364390
fuck you know what gets me a lot
>x is not natural
ho ho ho I get a little vigor everytime I hear it
>>364434
More than
>natural, therefore good?
>>364440
I think maybe the same
Also not really a standpoint but usually implies one when someone begins their sentence with "FACT:" it makes me want to stop listening at that precise moment
>Marginalized Peoples™ behave like they do because of material insufficiencies, if not then social insufficiencies, therefore it's a good idea to bring them here when they're guaranteed to be exposed to said insufficiences
>>362874
>But the artist still put time and effort into it. He cared how it turned out
Do you think time and effort put into a painting equals talent or quality?
A good painter could make a master piece with a few strokes of the brush, a shit one could spend years honing the details and still have a boring piece of shit.
>This piece is better than someone smearing their feces on a canvas and calling it "art".
What does that have to do with anything? Besides, it's perfectly possible to make art with shit, I've seen some peasant art the Indians made with shit actually, and it was pretty good.
>>363010
His interpretation is nonsense but I've read some roman quotes suggesting that Roman nationalism was pretty common, more so than tribal or religious allegiances. Don't know where I read it though.
Also in my country nationalism pre-dates the 18th century by about a hundred years for civiv nationalism and even earlier for ethnic nationalism, though this was also tied heavily to religion and didn't include notions like the nation-state.
>polyamory/polyandry isn't the perfect relationship system
>>364434
there are different meanings of "natural", one is all that which occurs in nature, another is that which is according to nature's purpose, a teleological sense.
>>362238
Do you imagine yourself being a noble man telling people what to do? No, you would be in the bottom of the pyramid, you silly man.
>>364593
>nature
>purpose
>If you disagree with me, you are a virgin/sexual repressed
What kind of idiot thinks this is a good argument?
>>361011
>people are naturally inclined to be greedy
nice meme
>>364616
Mostly women.
But honestly I don't know, but I use it a lot since it rustles me for the same reason as well
>>364616
Wilhelm Reich.
>>364434
this so much
>>361213
You're just salty becasu Jesus was a kek compared to Alphammed.
>>361004
>America and captialism suck, communism is so much better.
>>364633
Wasn't he considered a charlatan even among psychoanalysts? When psychoanalysts, of all people, consider someone a charlatan... How did he become influential among humanities type?
>>361042
actually compared to everyone else the nazis were quite culturally diverse
>>361290
>"skill" is immportant to art
it is you retard, art literally translates to skill in its Latin root.you can't say your a carpenter just because you nail some wood together.
>>364660
He advocated for lots and lots of degenerate (excuse the /pol/ word; substitute for sexual licentiousness here) practices, and became somewhat popular among the hippies who advocated for sexual freedom back then during the [sexual revolution]. There's also incredibly suspicious stuff around his research; not so much what he researched but what happened to it. For some reason the FDA really wanted to fuck him over.
ps orgonomy is objectively right, and our world is besieged by UFOs, i just don't think that it's our (the human race) sexuality that has much to do with it, whatever any psychoanalyst would like to say
>>361004
>I'm going to judge historic events as good/evil instead of trying to understand what lead to them.
>>364716
>i don't think it was great men that directed history but economics and social events
>race isn't skin deep
>women are equal to men
>x is a social construct
>>361028
>>361052
fuck off
>>364719
>x is natural
>>363842
Nobody denies it you nigger. Show me.
>>364719
>i don't think it was great men that directed history but economics and social events
How can you not see the two as concomitant?
>the Dark Ages didn't happen
>Western Europe was shit before the 15th century
>Europe, Asia, and Africa aren't completely arbitrary
>the Mongols weren't so bad
>medieval Muslims just stole everything from the Greeks
>Europe came out on top because of harsh winters
>>364616
Sometimes it's just painfully obvious that people never go out and actually talk to other people, they only stay in their echo chamber to gather around and circlejerk, that's why it's never good to only have one opinion, or one homeboard, it does not reflect how things really are.
I can accept it if you hate women based on things that are to me "logical" but when it just becomes fancy to hate on x and y, and to like this and that, like on a lot of boards here too, or in general websites which are generally speaking pools for people with similar opinions by nature, it gets frustrating and stupid real quick.
>You can't define [insert Western country here]'s culture in a few words, therefore it's an obsolete concept/nonexistant
>we are all individuals with different views, therefore there are no such things as "the society" or "the people"
>ethnicity is an outdated, racist concept
>>361004
>western culture and values are the only valid ones, we should force it down every other cultures throats but this is actually good and not imperialistic because we are liberals and those people don't treat x like I want them to
>>363126
Why?
>Gypsies dindu nuffin
>>361348
Wait so if both of those ideas are wrong in your opinion... They can't be both not-justified and not-unjustified, can they? How does that work?
>>363137
If there are pairs of identical twins in the world who have different sexual orientations (and there are), then that proves that genetics are not a 100% guaranteed determiner (though they do definitely seem to be an influence.)
>muh democracy
>muh liberty
>muh rights
>muh fascism is bad look at hitler
>muh racism is wrong
>muh free will is a myth
>nation states are good because they're natural
>>365290
Really? You get visibly upset by people enjoying democracy?
>equality and liberty are not mutually exclusive
>income inequality is bad and evil and we should root it out even if it means we'll just make equally poor
>>365483
The average democracy celebrator are often the ones who understand their own political system the least. Give me an enlightened monarchy over democracy any day.
>>365290
The way I see it, even if we suppose that people of other races really are just dumber and more prone to violence (and I don't think we can conclude that definitively as long as there are economic inequalities; poverty can make people resort to desperate measures, regardless of race) that doesn't mean we should treat them as less than human; just because someone has statistical indicators that they're more likely to commit a crime doesn't mean they should be treated like a criminal whether they've actually committed one or not.
>>361924
Hippies, Goths, skaters?
>>361924
There is no "white" culture in the same sense that there is no "black" culture. It's not really fair to lump all of one race's varying cultures into one overarching "culture" because they have the potential to be so varied. It would be remiss to say that Chinese culture is the same as Vietnamese or Japanese culture simply because they all fall under the category of "Asian" culture.
>>361147
Only one way to find out if consciousness is magic or not.
That is to kill yourself.
>>362978
>The Labor Theory of Value is horse shit.
even throwing that out it doesn't mean marxism is all wrong. why do people think the LTV is like the core of marxism? it's barely even important
>>364670
>trying to define a complicated concept by the etymological root of the word describing it
>thinking "skill" is in any way quantifiable
>comparing a practical profession to art
>wanting art to be a fucking competition based on some nebulous notion of how hard the piece was to make
>>361924
they don't you faggot
there are cultures that happen to belong to white people but there isn't a white culture. Only delusional burger white nationalists believe that.
>>364616
Feminists? Since that's about the only their arguments stand on.
>>363475
>but LTV is pretty integral to the theory of Communism.
KEK what? the theft of surplus value works in a subjective theory of value just as much. The LTV is not even that important to begin with.
>>361883
>the goal of life is to be happy
that's an opinion, why the fuck would that rustle your jimmies?
no one says that like it's a fact and that it applies to everyone
>>364616
Literally every group on the internet
It's especially funny when Feminists and MRA's both throw the fedora meme at eachother/
>>365535
he Sybil system which our current society is similarly headed towards in a manner if speaking disagrees
We already do this somewhat already i.e. profiling. and he'll obviously any false imprisonment cases take the claim in your post to it's extreme conclusion (in some cases like false rape it's pretty much much a given the guy will be arrested).
>please administer justice senpai
>>367433
>KEK what? the theft of surplus value works in a subjective theory of value just as much.
No it doesn't, because the object's value is created by the people who value it, not by its production. And it would never be available to potential purchasers without non-labor elements, so no theft can have taken place.
![[HorribleSubs] Hello!! Kiniro Mosaic - 02 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_16.45_[2015.04.12_13.27.58].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/KuHsC9R.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Hello!! Kiniro Mosaic - 02 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_16.45_[2015.04.12_13.27.58].jpg")
>>361004
>Godel has proven that [insert stupid bullshit]
>sum of all positive integers equals -1/12 because string theorists say so
>pi = 4
>irrational/transcendental numbers have any implications about whether we live in a simulation or not
>>362588
The bulk of Roman History shows Nationalism has existed since antiquity.
>>367774
> Roman nationalism
> Similar in any way to modern nationalism
u wot mate
>>367782
the original post literally said >nationalism didn't exist in any way shape or form before the 18th century
that guy said that claim was "spot on"
obviously modern nationalism has existed since the 18th century, that's what makes it fucking modern.
>>367782
Pleb read Cato
>>361119
>highly religious
>believes in an afterlife
>surprise.jpg
>>362669
yes pls gib me proof pls
>>363006
>starts off a pseudo-patrician comment
>succumbs to elementary reductionist fallacies
the absolute madman!
>>363006
I actually like it now, in a "you got me" kinda way.
Doesn't work at all without you knowing the name, though.
>>364616
>>364791
I don't think anyone argues that the dark ages didn't happen, just the whole muh ebil church oppressing people and keeping Europe from advancing.
>America is bad
>The Western world is bad
>non-western cultures are "purer" and better than western ones
>Islam isn't a problem
>All religions are equally bad and violent
>Israel is bad
>The West should stop supporting Israel
>Zionism is a bad idea
>America isn't the number one country in the world in terms of culture
>Western acts of war are equivalent to terrorism
>>361339
nobody is claiming this, spain and portugal had unified languages since the 15th century
>>361924
there is no real defined culture among whites, unless you count the memes about school shooters and shitty cooking spammed on Twitter
>>361348
it does have to be one or the other, the question if they were the best option of the christian world is more apt.
I agree the arguments for either are weak, but this is an abuse of english
>>367904
I wonder who could be behind this post??
>>367929
this is not /pol/ you faggot
Being Pro-American, Pro-Western, and Pro-Israel is the only correct view of the world.
Go to bed Noam.
>>367904
>America isn't the number one country in the world in terms of culture
w e w l a d
>>367904
>Islam isn't a problem
Islam in and of itself isn't a problem.
Salafist-takfiris are the problem, and they need to be cleansed from the face of the earth, just like Catholic dogmatists in the 17th century.
>>361421
objectivists, (ayn rand libertarians) believe that anything that cannot be physically sensed or measured cannot be seen as trustworthy enough to base decisions on. Things must be objective to determine a final answer to any question. Mysticism violates this, and vitually every established religion employs it to fill in gaps in human knowledge. Its just a notch away from being made up, the difference being some reason is used to make educated guesses.
An objectivist would take nothing less than scientific evidence to prove a point. Its the logical progression of rationalism.
>>361749
is this really exploitation though? Its a consensual deal, the worker gets paid without knowing how to start a business, just the labour. It solves his need for money in a quick and dirty fashion. The owner fills his production need in exchange for lowered profits, or profit at all.
light industry may not need the extra help, but assembly lines do by definition. See my point?
>>361011
communism/marxism is like all political rhetoric. of course it sounds good, if you're uneducated, but applying it to reality always has tragic results.
>>365226
I think what he's trying to say is you can't really say they were "justified" or not without having bias enter into it.
To the side crusading they are justified. To the side getting crusaded they aren't. And really arguing whether they were justified or not boils down to which side you fall in.
>>362238
monarchy is nice but it is centralistic... the whole reason why the colonies rebeled is because the king forgot he owes a decent life to all his subjects. You cannot tax them to death for any reason. You instead cut costs.
aristocratic republics would have a small consumer base, and few empowered individuals, research would grind to a halt.
They aren't better in any long term sense without heavy modification and circumstance. UK limits the power of the monarchy heavily so they don't make vast, rash declarations that are insane. Like cutting trade with a nation because their PM smells funny. The confederacy is a good example of the latter, they had little heavy industry because they suffered from social inertia. They were too stagnant to win a war against a modern power like the union. They may had the good manner to establish trade with england, but without getting their hands dirty themselves, they ran out of any and all crafted goods quickly. Unskilled labour can only do so much, without mid level workers to accelerate every stage of production
>>367982
its argued that it works when everyone is honorable and hardworking and mean well to each other. People want to get ahead, and thats not the best way on a personal level.
If you want to break through inequality fine, but it has to happen one way at a time, like racial equality, civic equality, what have you. Something that can be defined, and is not defined by results, only opportunity. If everyone fills out their forms to get healthcare in a country that has a national system, they can start the process of getting it. Its not ever gonna be perfect, but you can't get a pizza without ordering one, although a nation could decide to foot the bill if its a worthy thing to pay for.
Perfect example of working socialism is a colony that provides oil and iron to a parent nation, in return they ship the colony food and produced goods. They earn this for their work to the state, no money exchanges hands, it does not have to be exactly equivalent, its just both parties trying their best. You don't cut off your foot just because you sit most of the time and kicking does little to help your situation.
>>368064
>If you want to break through inequality fine
it's funny because those very societies which champion equality are always the ones that end up with the most inequality.
so far as we know in the modern world, the most effective way to lessen inequality is through a system which values freedom and liberty primarily
>>362669
are you trying to be sarcastic?
Yes a word is just a label. Yes they are concepts, that does not mean the object does not exist.
an atom is a nucleus made of protons orbited by electrons. This system exists right? then atoms exist, nobody is trying to say that its a black box that is independent from reality.
>>368080
this is why I said by opportunity, not result. The difference being every white or black person having the same chance at a job, judged by merits VS jobs being handed to black people to even out the numbers. affirmative action is an example of the "by result" category
>I disagree with you. You're a Nazi!
Not even when it's about political shit, apply this to fucking any situation.
>>361811
>I'm not a Jesus myther or the person you replied to, however.... The Jesus mythers basically say that the sources in the bible are so shit they cannot be trusted and the other sources for Jesus are insignificant. I disagree with their position but it is academically justified.
No it's not. Thinking a source is shit, because it hurts your feefees is not acceptable academic practice.
It sticks them in the same tier as creationists and holocaust deniers.
>>368105
yeah. this is why people stress the difference between equality of opportunity and equality of results.
the former is the fundamental basis of our society, the latter has no basis in reality
>>361749
The necessary condition of exploitation is that the party whose labor is utilized be treated "unfairly". The worker did not invest capital in the resources he manipulated, nor the means of production he used. He sold his labor voluntarily because his labor is a commodity like any other resource in the production process, and the price of that labor is set by the market.
It is therefore only fair to pay him the price of his labor, not what he manufactures.
>>361011
It works in practice
>Love is just a chemical reaction
>The reason this happened is Jews
>>361883
>>one day, thanks to science, we will be able to upload our mind into a machine
fuck you cunt
singularity soon
>You noted that they're black. You're generalizing a whole race and you're a racist!
>Lmao fucking white people are so weird tho and shoot up schools/can't cook
>>361883
>>any metaphysical stance is acceptable since there is no way to refute it
This. Arguing with an idiot that thinks "reality is only that we are able to see" is acceptable on /a/ was the most infuriating thing I've done since applying for graduate school
>there was no anti-Bolshevist sentiment in Europe, that's just an excuse and every soldier in the Wehrmacht was aggressively genocidal towards slavs, ideology was just an excuse
There is no denying Hitler waged a war of aggression against the world, but seeing shit like this in almost every single relatively impartial or positive memoir or biography of German soldiers on Amazon is getting so fucking tired.
>>362918
>any of these things being relevant after the fact
found tumblr
>>362150
>le anything can be art meme
>Donating to charity just encourages them to breed! Social darwinism now!
>>362900
But there is such a thing as an appreciable, objective standard of beauty.
Why do you think a group of people can look at a person, rate them out of 10 and come up with an averaged group consensus of how attractive that person is?
Why do you think we have numerical measurements of pitch, time signature, tempo, etc in music? Because it requires some kind of structure and progression to actually be music.
If you wrote a computer program which took random dictionary words and strung them together with no rhyme or reason and called it a novel, would it be equivalent to a novel written by a human being who sat down and formed a structured, refined narrative?
I understand the desire for art to be as open-ended as possible, but that doesn't mean that anything and everything is suddenly art. Art takes work and conviction and a genuine flow of inspiration, it isn't just something you literally or figuratively shit out and call it a piece or a statement.
>>369178
>natural selection on eugenics support from people on le taiwanese birdwatching forum
these are the same people who believe in inherent causation between ethnicity and intelligence. when it's so incredibly contentious and so many racial realists have made fools of themselves and been called out on making unfounded claims.
>>367423
Then the same logic dictates that there's no "black culture" either, and yet we are constantly told about the "experiences of black people" as a group
"White" and "black" are inherently reductionist terms, we use them for the sake of conversational ease, not because they actually mean anything. Therefore, if we are going to say "black culture" is a thing for the sake of conversational ease then we can say "white culture" for the same reason
>>369185
>Why do you think a group of people can look at a person, rate them out of 10 and come up with an averaged group consensus of how attractive that person is?
This is a fucking awful example and I don't even necessarily disagree with you.
>>367918
>what is modern liberal democracy/constitutional republicanism/neo-liberalism
>what is every invention that mattered ever (the Asians helped)
>what is modern science
>what is the advancement of the entire species
>>362114
>mfw liberalism has been perverted from its classical definition into an association with leftism
>mfw leftism is inherently about seeking power and control
>the retards who can only think in objective/subjective false dichotomies
>when something isn't subjectively immeasurable, it must be objectively measurable, and vice versa
please, just stop, it's so painful to watch. something can be not-subjective without being anything else.
>frog posting is not a valid argument
>>362268
no, the humanities being totally subjective and often ideological is why nobody takes humanities seriously
>>369203
>the humanities being totally subjective
Get a load of this mongoloid.
>>364564
>btw i'm a gril
>>369206
What you you have against the Mongols? Is it because of Tengri worship, and how they were all, you can worship whoever you want because that's subjective and you're really just worshiping Tengri?
Seriously why do you shitpost all the time about mongoloids, how the Mongols ruined the middle east, how Russia didn't exist when the Mongols took over, how the Mongols were more evil pillagers and rapists than other conquers etc.
Seriously fuck off with your >mongoloids
>>361004
>society has traditionally been structured for the benefit of men as a group at the expense of women as a group
> Leftism is an ideology
> Referring to people as 'Leftists'
It makes no sense to group ideologies like Marxism-Leninism & Anarchism together.
Left/Right is an outdated dichotomy anyway, the French Revolution was over two hundred years ago.
>>369211
Fuck off, mongoloid.
>>367418
>>skill isn't quantifiable
hello Columbia College Chicago
>>361004
Political transplatism
Just becuase it worked in one society does not mean its gonna work everywhere.
Like the american political system
Or the british or aus system for gun control.
>>368794
>love is some ethereal magical state of being and not just in your head
wew lad
>>369201
but you're literally arguing against the definitions of these words you fucking retard
>"I'm a [blank] realist"
NO ONE HAS EVER FUCKING HAD A VIEWPOINT THEY DIDN'T REGARD AS REALISTIC
YOU ARE A FAGGOT WITH AN OPINION LIKE ANYONE ELSE, BUT WANT TO SNIDELY IMPLY YOURS IS "RIGHT" BEFORE ARGUING THAT
>>369213
>anarchists are leftists
get a load of this retard
>>369233
>the world is black and white
>as soon as something isn't necessarily subjective, it has to be absolutely objective
you haven't even read the greeks, stop posting.
>>369236
the reason "realism" labeling is necessary is because of other people who deny observable reality in favor of an ideological position
>abortion is ever justifiable
>Aristotle was an idiot because he didn't understand physics
>islam needs a martin luther
>separation of church and state
>>369237
In the left/right dichotomy we currently use yes, Anarchists are 'leftists', sorry.
Doesn't make sense but neither does left/right anyway.
>>369256
>islam needs a martin luther
>separation of church and state
It sure as fuck needs a 30 Years War.
>>369244
>observable reality
>worth jack shit
"that nigger just shot a man, a race realist acknowledges blacks as savages"
"an afro-american was pushed by economic and social forces into a life of crime, a race realist acknowledges blacks as victims of white privilege"
>>361718
Knut Hamsun said that. It was in like 1900 though.
>im majoring in philosophy
>im majoring in theology
>>369314
Why does that trigger you?
>natural rights
>>369166
>people went to the crusades because they wanted to gain power and influence/get rich/slaughter Muslims
Why does nobody ever consider that many people back then were actually pious and had a genuine desire to defend their faith?
>>370018
People today barely have any ideals and nothing to die for, so people back then must too.
>>361213
Read a book
>>362871
> Using 'natural' as a justifucation
These are social constructs about who you bang, naturalness means shit. Also
> Implying polygamy is any more inherent than monogamy
There are selective pressures that influence species towards either end, including our own. They are not mutually exclusive as they both provide different benefits, propagating more children, and being more sure that your children are in fact yours.
