Hello, /his/.
First the link:
https://mega.nz/#F!AE5yjIqB!y7Vdxdb5pbNsi2O3zyq9KQ
Enochian is an interesting though incredibly complex system of angel magic developed through the late 1500's by John Dee and Edward Kelley. To make matters worse it appears we're missing key documents, and some of what we have was used as a wrap to bake a meatpie. The subject is so unwieldy that it would probably take the entire thread for an introduction, so I'll just touch on some main points and source references:
True and Faith Relation, key source narrative:
https://archive.org/stream/truefaithfulrela00deej#page/n7/mode/2up
The Great Table, an online resource for navigating the central cipher of the system:
http://keepsilence.org/greattable/
There are a goodly number of texts in the library which break down the actual system of magic, transmitted to Dee and Kelley through complex ciphers, and backwards at that. There's circumstantial evidence that Kelley was introducing material from Lurianic Kabbalah. The material was used to spy on other nations for the British crown on the approval of Elizabeth herself. They were also alchemical explorers and contributed to the development of the failed attempt at an alchemical kingdom of Frederick V the Elector Palatine. The following McKenna documentary covers much of this period in terms of alchemy, though it's a McKenna doc. so be prepared to take aspects with a grain of salt:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjCjwZfyyBM
Others have used this material, including the Golden Dawn and later Crowley. We know that Dee was standardizing his notes via Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy, which segues into the other topic for the thread: Asterism.
>>354547
Agrippa relied heavily on planetary and stellar magic. Some of my favorite material from this is Agrippa's elaborations on the Behenian Fixed Stars. Budge (who first translated Coming Forth by Day for a wide audience) asserts these have a Sumerian origin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behenian_fixed_star
A new list of important stars appears with some ominous implications in Crowley's working of the Enochian material in Algeria:
>And the tablet blazeth ever brighter till it filleth the whole Aire. And behold! there is is one God therein, and the letters of the stars in his crown, Orion, and the Pleiades, and Aldebaran, and Alpha Centauri, and Cor Leonis, and Cor Scorpionis, and Spica, and the pole-star, and Hercules, and Regulus, and Aquila, and the Ram's Eye.
>And upon a map of the stars shalt thou draw the sigil of that name; and because also some of the letters are alike, thou shalt know that the stars also have tribes and nations
Cultus Sabbati is a modern synchretic system working out of Draco, which the Arabs reckoned as hyenas attacking a family of camels.
There are tons of great star myths of incredible importance through India. One of my favorites is that of the Matrika, or the star goddesses of the Pleiades, sometimes reckoned to be the wives of the Seven Saptarishi, or wise saints which appear to function as living vessels of stellar transition and are associated with Ursa Major. The Matrika on the other hand round out a list of entities in some tantrik traditions which may be invoked into a properly trained aspirant. Matrikabheda Tantra touches on some of this material and may be accessed via the library. There's a huge amount of material on these subjects, my paragraph is just a springboard.
>>354571
Anyway, what interesting, obscure, or wild stellar myths do YOU know? Or have info about. I'd love to know more about traditional Chinese astrology and/or what the Norse were doing with the stars. Any info, particularly with [citations] is appreciated, though the traditions and systems mentioned above aren't set in stone.
Honest question: why practice magic?
>>354606
Depends on who you ask, and when.
I do it in the immediate aim of "Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel" a term coined in the Abramelin work and elaborated upon by Aleister Crowley among many others.
Others want power or material ends. They rely heavily on things like Lemegeton to get their way. Some want to be edgelordy Satanists. Some want to heal their community. Some want to commune with Nature as they conceive of it.
If nothing else it'll give you a broad perspective on the rarely explored corners of history and anthropology, and hopefully a couple of useful contemplative techniques, like yoga or:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_memory
>>354629
Thanks. I've been reading your threads and answers and you have been really helpful. Unfortunately I have nothing to add, but I really wish I did. Once more, thanks.
>>354629
>Others want power or material ends.
Which is, incidentally, missing the point.
Consider:
"The method of science, the aim of religion".
"The method of religion, the aim of science."
Which one is right?
>>354632
Always happy to answer honest questions from the curious. Hell, I don't even care if you buy the shit or not, there's enough history and culture to keep it interesting even for the seculars.
>>354656
Quite, though it's not exactly my place to tell people how to get by with these systems. On the other hand, if we didn't have the aim of science we wouldn't have meta-analyses, so it has a place, just not at the forefront of what's important.
>>354678
http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Shamans-Kanaima-Poetics-Violent/dp/0822329883
On the little-known and darker side of shamanism there exists an ancient form of sorcery called kanaimà, a practice still observed among the Amerindians of the highlands of Guyana, Venezuela, and Brazil that involves the ritual stalking, mutilation, lingering death, and consumption of human victims. At once a memoir of cultural encounter and an ethnographic and historical investigation, this book offers a sustained, intimate look at kanaimà, its practitioners, their victims, and the reasons they give for their actions.
Neil L. Whitehead tells of his own involvement with kanaimà—including an attempt to kill him with poison—and relates the personal testimonies of kanaimà shamans, their potential victims, and the victims’ families. He then goes on to discuss the historical emergence of kanaimà, describing how, in the face of successive modern colonizing forces—missionaries, rubber gatherers, miners, and development agencies—the practice has become an assertion of native autonomy. His analysis explores the ways in which kanaimà mediates both national and international impacts on native peoples in the region and considers the significance of kanaimà for current accounts of shamanism and religious belief and for theories of war and violence.
Kanaimà appears here as part of the wider lexicon of rebellious terror and exotic horror—alongside the cannibal, vampire, and zombie—that haunts the western imagination. Dark Shamans broadens discussions of violence and of the representation of primitive savagery by recasting both in the light of current debates on modernity and globalization.
>>354748
http://www.jwmt.org/v2n19/golden.html
>A Golden Storm: Attempting to Recreate the Context of John Dee and Edward Kelley's Angelic Material
Incidentally, there is much other Golden Dawn, A.:A.:, and Thelemic material that can be traced directly to works of John Dee besides the Enochian manuscripts. The packed symbolism implicit in the LVX Sign of the Adept, and its expansion into the LVX/INRI analysis of the keyword, has as its only known source Theorem XVII of Dee's Hieroglyphic Monad.
I am certainly interested in these topics and yet I can'shake the feeling that the deepest truths are meant to be mysteries.
Thoughts?
>>354800
I agree wholeheartedly. The only true Mysteries are incommunicable, as you discover them as a process of self exploration, in this case self implying one's environment as well.
This does not mean I cannot hold a lamp at the mouth of the cavern of VITRIOL for a glimpse. The path is walked simultaneously with these great men and scholars of the past, as well as peers, and alone, for no other person can provide the initial spark which fuels the fires of spiritual apprehension.
>>354823
I guess I mean that I feel cautious about exploring the Mysteries... for instance perhaps accepting that they ARE mysteries. I almost feel like knowing too much lessens the awe in the sacred.
>>354862
But then how do we identify the sacred without intimate knowledge thereof?
>someone else said so
Pic infinitely related.
>>354887
Hmm.
I think I am not expressing myself very well. I don't imply that *others* (such as yourself) should not explore the Mysteries, just that I myself prefer to experience them *as* mystery, and sort of get off on the sacredness, rather than explore them scientifically.
Also I truly believe in the power concealed therein, so I am extremely cautious about getting too involved.
The furthest I have gone is to use protective talismans for others, or sympathetic magic for healing purposes.
What angels does one work with when casting Enochian magic?
What do you ask them to do for you?
>>354922
>The furthest I have gone is to use protective talismans for others, or sympathetic magic for healing purposes.
I've got some Babalonian material that covers that ground.
Also, most of Lemegeton and large chunks of Agrippa as mentioned above are devoted to those goals.
To each their own; explore if you like, if not, more power.
Last thing I'm interested in doing is going over to one of the half dozen Christian threads and telling them how wrong their praxis is.
>>354967
I always thought western mysticism had a lot of judaism and well, christianism in it.
>>354967
Dude, I'm not telling you you are wrong! I enjoy your threads. I was just adding my voice to the conversation, but will return to lurking. Carry on.
>>354951
That depends a fuckton on what you're trying to do. Generally speaking you'll be working with three of the 91 Governors at a time, though this certainly is not always the case, and Uriel likes intervening a whole hell of a lot when people start to do Enochian, *particularly* if they've got some kind of background with LBRP.
I don't ask them for a fucking thing. I'm not THAT hubristic. Mostly I just sit and listen. These entities aren't the sorts of things you can order around like the Lemegeton spirits or even the traditional angels in Lemegeton.
It's often repeated that YOU don't do Enochian work, at least initially; when you're ready, the angels make it very clear it's time to begin and when you need to take a break.
>>354985
I don't think you're telling me I'm wrong. I'm just trying to be conversational.
>>354976
It does, to a certain extent, but certainly not what we've inherited today through modern Christian institutions. Certain late Gnostics (Mandeans?) were kinda instrumental in the development of angelic evocation though little of anything survived.
>>354951
I don't think they're summoning real angels m8 angels help you talk to God those angels drove them batsheet insane and got Dee and Kelley to share eachothers wives.
One of them was into necromancy too so I am sure God doesn't reveal His light to people like that just because they cast a magic circle and all that.
Why never any discussion on Rosicrucians? I've been trying to find their mission statement, but it's all very "love humans and stuff". Were they just old weird Shriner's that had a special old man club? I didn't see anything occult or magick related at all with the organization.
>>355011
Do you have any recommendations of something similar to Alan Moore's Promethea: entry-level occult?
Do you think nowadays more people are practicing it or not?
What I mean is, there was a time when magic was seen as being really serious and real but nowadays most people joke at it.
Do you think, well, magic beings, angels, etc, find this weird?
>>355033
There's a good chance the Rosicrucians never even existed until the Order of the Golden and Rosy Cross was founded in Germany in the 1750's by some Freemasons and alchemists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Golden_and_Rosy_Cross
Incidentally, the Golden Dawn is a claimant to the Rosicrucian tradition and founded as a breakaway from SRIA so they could initiate women and practice occultism, and some of Crowley's initiations, himself a member of the GD at one time, utilize large amounts of Rosicurican material.
>>355049
Interesting, what do you think of modern day Rosicrucian organizations?
>>355045
Many people are practicing magic without knowing it.
Magic is part of the way the world works.
>>355011
No when I was initiated did a lot of angel magick and I think the whole set up was a hoax because I remember specifically the same angels where trying to get me to do stuff I wasn't comfortable with and some angels aren't who they claim to be.
It took me about 2 years after this too meet the actual angels in which they lead me to knowing God and using my esoteric information to decode the Bible and other readings.
What kind of Holy Guardian Angel gets you to flip pentagrams and start off doing sex magick? Obviously it is a fake angel or a fallen angel.
>>355015
It's not that hard to scry and awe at the information you get, and then use it for a purpose like keking someone else's wife. That just screams fake or false light angels are trying to get you to do this stuff. Besides Aliester Crowley "touched base" on it and I think that is where it just got worse
>>355045
Yes.
I know what you mean.
Probably.
>>355044
Even Promethia gets iffy; I don't like 'entry level' stuff as the material you're going to have to get familiar with isn't very entry-level.
Illuminatus! by Robert Anton Wilson? It's massively biased toward the psychological model but it's a decent synopsis for what it is, and fun though mega long.
>>355060
Mixed bag, depends heavily on current leadership and lineal tradition. Stella Matutina's good. AMORC isn't. SRIA depends on where you are.
>>355070
Good for you, m8.
>>355045
It's easy for a magician to give you an answer like:
>depends how you define it
>everyone does magic...
>let me give you a riddle
And people eat it up. Magic naturally ia something like synchronicity happening with no spell work or intention. You see someone you haven't seen in 5 years it's a great feeling, or someone gives you ten bucks when you need it most.
Magick is a procedure using ritual spell work to get something in return, calling on deities, sometimes using blood or semen all for means to an end.
There is always more to it, but there is so much more to just being one with the natural cause and effect of life
>>355070
>it's a hoax because the Christian god doesn't like it
Oh boy.
For someone who wants to "belong" to an order, if that someone were in a very remote area and only had access to the internet, what "order" or family would you recommend?
>>355090
I really don't understand what you are saying here: it seems like you are saying there are different levels and types of magic, and then it seems like you are saying that is bs. Explain?
>>355107
Any that supports solo work. So, off the top of my head, with many diverse topics:
>The A.'.A.'.
>Temple of Set's distance pylon
>Order of Nine Angles
>Cultus Sabbati
>Typhonian Order (Typhonian OTO)
>Ancient and Mystical Order of the Knights of Shamabalah
I'm sure there are a slew of other groups, orders, and fraternities that support distance training, you just gotta poke around.
A.'.A.'. usually requires an in person initiation, but this can be bent if not shattered.
>>355094
I am just saying a real angel actually helps your spiritual development. The "Holy Guardian Angel" is a deception I did the same thing (not Enochian but very close) and many of these angels aren't really who they say they are, and when they "guide" you to other directions it really isn't wholly for spiritual development, also I don't believe YHWH is the true God either.
>>355078
I am just saying when I was initiated it seems "wow look at these beings of light" when anyone can say that about angels but the goal of actual angels is to help you develope spiritually. Wasn't Dee or Kelley trying to find buried treasure? Using magic as means to an end
>>355078
>Don't like entry-level
My problem is that my brain rebels against certain types of complicated reading, and yet I am very interested.
![e8a5w9s[1].gif](https://i.imgur.com/jNBAG8F.gif "e8a5w9s[1].gif")
>Take all frogs from past threads
>Impale them all on tree thorns
>Bury the bodies in ant hills
>Take bones of all frogs to clear flowing stream at midnight
>Throw bones in and prepare anus
>Grasp all the bones that flow upstream
>Survive 4 lightening strikes and being thrown around in a windstorm
>Become insanely powerful
>MRW the devil comes at me and asks for the bones
>>355113
There is a bunch of different types of magic, and I know that having esoteric information at your arsenal is good for defending against attacks and subliminal and psychological symbols you wouldn't even be aware of with some "occult" information.
I am saying, you don't need to summon spirits and cast spells to get what you want, when your mind is so capable already to impact its own reality by action
>>355113
He's probably the Christian spammer from the last few threads. We had two but one ducked out. It's either Pet3r or someone like him.
Hell, honestly I'll take him over any number of skeptics who reply once then leave or the people saying this or that mode of practice is garbage with zero supporting information other than a feelpinion or two.
>>355136
Can you handle 700s pages of fairly goofy fiction? Then my basic recommendation is Illuminatus! Then, if you can get through it, you know you can read the other stuff that's serious and stuffy but much shorter.
Most entry level stuff's really shitty and the stuff that isn't is feeble in some aspect. I can only recommend DMK's Modern Magick or Bardon's Initiation into Hermetics on the explicit understanding that those are NOT places to finish your study. They're places to start.
>>355134
Ah. So you think that there are real beings falsely representing themselves as angels.
This is why I dislike interacting with beings that I can't see.
Give me a tree or sacred pool any day.
>>355151
Casting spells and such is helpful for directing intention, however.
>>355139
Pic related.
>>355157
That's a thing too. FYI, though, most 'false spritis' crumble when faced with a properly charged hexagram keyed to the nature of the real entity you're trying to contact.
Say you want a solar spirit. You evoke. Get results. Says it's solar. Bust out the solar hexagram. It fucks off. Guess it wasn't solar.
>>355152
It's not really spam, it is more a hope that someone gets what I am trying to say.
How can "Holy Guardian Angels" and "Enochian Angels" lead you to, lets say sex magic rituals and summoning demons for information and assistance in fulfilling a goal? Why would these angels guide you into knowing all these esoteric secrets and have you use them to not exactly bow down and worship a good, but serve as means to an end?
They just aren't the real deal angels. I used to work angel magick all the time and after everything settled down and I started to just pray and ask for their appearance I got the real deal "this is how you advance spiritually" and it wasn't hocus pocus witchcraft it was serious time and effort in following the true way of spiritual liberation.
Of course a real angel wants you to worship God and accept Jesus, that is what makes them Holy because they don't demand worship.
>>355152
I will give Illuminatus a shot: thanks!
Any thoughts about the magic of storytelling, and why it seems to be cropping up quite a bit in modern fiction?
>>355175
Oh Chumbles. He's been gaining some attention here as of late, which is neato.
>>355157
That's why I have a method but I can't just give it away without a bunch of background information but it isn't going to be:
>what's this system of spiritual development all about
>well it depends what you mean by "spiritual
>it also depends what you mean by "development"
This is what the mason did to me and to many other people, they tell them "it is a fraternity about growth and bonding" and it is just a face value definition used to lure you in
>>355172
So isn't nike's "just do it"
>>355180
>they are not real angels
Perhaps they are just answering the question. Why does that make them fake?
>>355011
>and Uriel likes intervening a whole hell of a lot when people start to do Enochian
That has been Gabriel for me. Weird.
>>355192
> so is Nike's just do it
So is a fork.
They are tools.
>>355194
Maybe they are real angels, but there is a difference between
>satan as "an angel of light"
>fallen angel
>Crowley's "holy guardian angel"
>biblical archangel
>and mystic phenomena of unexpected angel encounter
>>355200
>That has been Gabriel for me. Weird.
Interesting!
>>355181
All art is a reficiation of the beauty in one's soul. The more occultism contributing to that beauty in terms of like esoteric exploration across the culture, the more it'll turn up in that cultures artforms.
Again, take McKenna with a grain of salt, but we've got a nice little archaic revival going, despite clickbait horeshit like Ultraculture.
>>355203
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THAT
>>355216
>Interesting!
Keep in mind I jumped straight into the Aethyrs, without first reading about Enochian at all (not even a bit of V&V). The bias towards Uriel might be due to the material giving him prominence?
>>355186
Did you see the last couple threads, dudebro? I'm going to be working DBoE and have been drawing up notes on it. It's an absolutely remarkable synchretism of the last like 2500 years of, well, everything.
>>355221
Certainly a possibility but I came into it with just about zero working knowledge, my friends and I were working off a printout of the great table we got from our most knowledgeable practitioner. It was only after I started to interact with Uriel that I was given an inkling of what's what and went on to Tyson's book.
Still, given how much of the Golden Dawn program is keyed to the Enochian material, it's no surprise that the angels of LBRP are going to go a bit bug-eyed when you start reciting the calls.
>>355240
Yeah, that does make sense.
>>355203
>there is a difference
Ok,but in some ways they are all
>mystical beings with whom you seek to communicate
>>355275
No matter what degree of occultist you are characterized by you walk in with blindless
>>355275
In some ways we're all people, but I am not you.
>>355307
I'm mostly responding to the charges of "fake" and "hoax", and "not real angels"
>>355221
I'm going to start off with just simple Aeythyr's, all I need for this is alone time and a proper scrying tool, correct?
>>355307
... or ARE you?
>>355328
Azazel was a real angel, doesn't make him good
>>355226
I didn't realize you had jumped ship from /x/, but when I did come in I noticed someone posting a lot of frogs asking to be spared and that you've found a way through Ol' Chumbles to drastically reduce the time needed for certain initiations. I'm definitely interested, and would love updates in upcoming OP's.
>>355348
Oooooh. You believe in "good".
That's why we've been talking past each other.
>>355348
ribbit you guys know Crowley crucified a frog after calling it Jesus of Nazareth?
http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib70.html
Just spreading the awareness to my somewhat amphibians descendents. I think he was crazy.
What kind if "holy guardian angel" tells you to crucify an innocent frog
>>355342
Well...
>First you need to figure out which planets are tied to the angels in question, Great Table will help you with this as it gives a tribe of Israel for each governor, which tells you its zodiac sign, which tells you its ruling planet
>Then you should wait until you can hit all three planets in short succession using their hours
>Then you gotta recite your keys, starting with the first, the second, then whichever you're triangulated to on their location at the table by element, then the Call of the 30 Aethyrs.
That's actually one of the least complex methods of doing this shit, it gets worse from there unless you just wanna call out keys as they are.
>>355360
Silly 21st century and your moral relativism, even though there is not always a distinct "good or bad" there is a distinct guideline "dharma and adharma" and the conscious should be able enough to realize what the right thing to is
>>355373
Actually you dont need to do any of that
>>355380
There s dark and light, negative and positive, death and birth. There is destruction and creation. All these are necessary and important. I do not seek to exclude anything by calling it "bad".
>>355384
>unless you just wanna call out keys as they are
Which I've seen people get results from, I just like to be thorough.
But thanks for that heap of links for alternate simpler methods, brotherman.
>>355392
>i have to harness the dark energies because everything is dual
Sure you "do"
That is like saying;
>"I know ISIS is killing a bunch of harmless victims but they're actually a cool organization should check them out sometime maybe join them"
>>355398
did someone say link?
ribbit
->>355367
soon we shall be avenged my amphibious brotha muahahahaha
>>355421
>comparing well known occult orgs to ISIL. Also Vajrayana's mostly bloodless, so you don't have to kill things for unorthodox practice.
Look at Aghori. They don't MAKE the bodies, they just EAT the bodies. Here's an Aghori and his qt puppr.
>>355421
>not being enlightened enough to realize that ISIS is an expression of the unacknowledged darkness.
There will *always* be darkness and horror anon. I don't enjoy it, but I damn well respect it.
And I don't just write it off as "bad" I seek to come to terms with it.
>>355433
So you literally have zero backup to your claim that Enochian need not operate under those basic procedures, and you're here to spam frogs?
>>355448
But if morality is only relative, Isis killing a shit ton of people "isn't all bad"
>"as an occultist, nothing is bad, eating babies killing children bombing cities"
>>355454
No it's acknowledged darkness, you don't "come to terms with it" you defeat that shit man idk why you guys act like a bunch of pussys
>always gonna be darkness and horror
>my music is dark like muh fingernails
>its in no way effecting my personality
>mom i need eyeliner
Man up and look with your eyes not your ass dude.
>>355398
I was reading in bed one night and just read the first one mentally to see if I could pronounce the whole thing. 3/4th's of the way through I got incredibly sleepy but forced myself to get to the end.
At the end I could only drop my phone and noticed a huge... HUGE shadow on the wall in front of my bed, and an overwhelming sense of peace and calm. I had a new baby and a tired wife who never got any sleep, but the entire family slept through the night and woke up completely refreshed. I have not felt that since.
I don't know what any of that means, but I feel now I was definitely doing it wrong so I stopped completely. I simply don't have the time or money to invest in the proper tools.
>>355488
You did it right. That "sleepiness" is basically a trance. You can turn it into sleep, or you can persist and start dreaming, while still being conscious.
Those visions are what you seek.
>>355466
You don't need magic to meet angels, enochian and other one's will make you more prone to the decietful ones.
But you also have "free will" to use "your brain" and make the decision "on your own" without "outside or inside influences" affecting what you do
>>355503
>>But you also have "free will" to use "your brain" and make the decision "on your own" without "outside or inside influences" affecting what you do
Do you have anything to support that claim?
>>355503
Care to point me to a contemporary Christian theologian who can explain why it'll make you prone to contact with false angels, preferably one that's familiar with the Enochian corpus.
>>355477
>gotta defeat them
>continuing the cycle of war and death
>b-but ,*they're* the bad guys
>>355510
>Do you have anything to support that claim?
Did you even read it "Surgo"? What do you think of that claim? Without the quotations does it really change the meaning?
>>355513
What is your take on good and evil? You can be honest if you believe honesty is a good quality to have.
>>355529
Go make an ethics thread and I'll post a reply :3
>>355519
In Enochian magic
-That Jesus was not God.
- That no prayer ought to every be made to Jesus.
- That there is no sin.
- That man's soul goes from "one body to another chiildes quickening or animation" (transmigration of souls).
- That as many men and women as are now, have always been alive upon the earth (a scientific impossibility which can easily be proven a lie)
- That the generation of mankind from Adam and Eve, is not a History, but "a writing which has another sense".
- That there was no Holy Ghost.
- They Enochian "angels" would "not suffer him to pray to Jesus Christ; but would rebuke him, saying, that 'he robbed God of his honour, etc.'"
Which is a bunch of lies when you meet the real deal angels
>>355554
Why can't you answer it here
>>355557
>Highest of angels still salty they got BTFO by the Nazerene 1500 years after the fact
Every fuckin' time.
>>355557
Even Jesus prayed to the Father. Christians are supposed to pray "in his name".
>>355557
>- That man's soul goes from "one body to another chiildes quickening or animation" (transmigration of souls).
Hey, that's another interesting point.
What do you make of The Nazarene's talk to the Sanhedrin? Where he (according to orthodox narrative) advocates for Baptism?
>No man shall see the kingdom of heaven lest he be born again
Transmigration of souls pops up in some esoteric Hebrew material. God uprooting and replanting souls. What's the possibility he was referring to esoteric mystical doctrines inside of mainstream Hebrew practice at the time, rather than the practices of his own associates? It would explain Nicodemus' surprise, and moreover, some of the supplanting imagery, as well as the fact Christ wasn't hurried away from the temple for speaking in such Satanic heresy.
>>355078
Why AMORC isn't good? I was thinking of joining, my father is one (and maybe more of my family).
>>355609
Transmigration was the only one
That Jesus was not God.
- That no prayer ought to every be made to Jesus.
- That there is no sin.
Tha as many men and women as are now, have always been alive upon the earth (a scientific impossibility which can easily be proven a lie)
- That the generation of mankind from Adam and Eve, is not a History, but "a writing which has another sense".
- That there was no Holy Ghost.
- They Enochian "angels" would "not suffer him to pray to Jesus Christ; but would rebuke him, saying, that 'he robbed God of his honour, etc.'"
>UPDATED
So still valid argument these are not the real deal angels
>>355643
"My Father and I are One"
So Jesus is God, you call on Christ you mean to say God.
Every angel I have encountered reformed my faith in Jesus, but specifically told me about God being first then Jesus, but God is Jesus and yet Jesus calls on God.
Your not gonna need magic to figure these axioms out.
>>355640
>all other groups claiming to be the Illuminati are false
Fuck me sideways, OTO's got a better claim on Illuminati survival than they do, given Reuss and later Crowley actually used Illuminati grips and other conventions.
Moreover, I just feel the material's a bit noodly and limp. The monographs appear to be Lewis' own elaborations more than core material, and if you're going to read the material of a dude who claims OTO was a front after getting initiated to it, may as well just read the OTO documents.
>>355657
With the exceptions of the angels I called when working magick
>>355667
>>355667
Why does the "k" make me cringe?
>>355685
I dunno.
It's a deliberate archaic spelling Crowley popularized in the early 20th century. It's derived from late middle English and early modern. Seriously declined in use through the 1700's.
>>355700
Ah. Crowley.
Not my cuppa.
>>355685
Makes me cringe too
But so doesn't crucifixion of frogs
And so doesn't calling "holy guardian angels" real angels when
->>355557 is in enochian magic which I mean come on any of you guys actually take the Book of Enoch seriously all this stuff adds together
>>355713
*yawn*
>>355713
This is the second time you've asserted that the HGA was equivalent of the Enochian entities this thread, after being correct on that last thread.
>implying Enochian magick is related to the Book of Enoch in any tangible manner.
Thunder: Perfect Mind MAYBE, but you're missing even more citations on that.
>inb4 more Christist feelpinions.
>>355729
>corrected
>>355729
So those angels aren't related to God in anyway, if they aren't connected to the Book of Enoch in anyway?
You can go ahead and cast a spell and get the fake shit, but you can just know the real angels througj the Holy Spirit.
If Dee and Kelley wanna act like their angels are holy and c-uck eachothers wives and if Crowley wants to pretend those angels are holy, yet crucify frogs and try ti "end" Christianity then you guys can to
>>355752
>evangelizing this fucking hard and spamming frogs each thread
>>355767
Relax nigga
Just hope someone has common sense and gets it
>>355152
Are you really recommending Illuminatus! or is it a joke?
>>355777
>777
We "got it" the first couple hundred times you complained about people not sucking the Nazarene's dick.
>>355779
For someone whose only conception of the occult is from a comic book? Yes. That will segue him out of the sphere of total fiction and into the sphere of partial reality.
>>355784
>>355136
Prometheus Rising by RAW would be way better
>I can't into Illuminatus!
>>355784
Actually it is a simple message.
If God wanted you to contact angels ny casting magick and to c-uck each others wives and crucify frogs it would be somewhere in the Bible or another holy text.
You can know the actual angels without using Dee and Kelley's method, but through prayer
>>355813
>my mythology is better than your mythology
>>355813
>The Bible is the only valid holy text
>Holy texts I don't like don't count
>He will never not be an impotent Christist spamming a thread about things inimical to his belief structure so hard it stays bumped.
Thanks for the exposure I guess.
>>355804
I recommend Illuminatus! for it's smattering of actual historical data.
>>355828
Yeah it is, and I don't just read the Bible either, but they have actual means and methods of liberation and understanding divinity.
They don't cast sex magick rituals they learned on 4chan and even better, they aren't reading a bunch of magic books based on other people's opinions on magic
>>355837
>the Bible or another holy text
Pretty sure Buddha doesn't talk about animal sacrifice.
Pretty sure Jesus is all about trusting Gid and having faith and also being intellectual enough to challenge other "religious scholars"
It isn't like I never done magic before, and it isn't like Christians don't hate me either
>>355844
>yeah it is
Lol'd so hard
I dunno man: we all have different paths, you know?
>>355844
>Yeah it is
>>355858
True but read that in context. I am not saying join a religion, I am pretty much telling you that you can just ask God in Spirit for the real angel, and not the fake one's that come out when you cast a spell to talk to them
>>355859
Yeaup. Because at least these books are always available, and while I am over here like
>muh Jesus
You are over there like
>muh occult librury
>>355853
>Pretty sure Buddha doesn't talk about animal sacrifice.
But I can think of half a dozen Shakti tantras that do.
>Jesus
The only one here who cares is you, man.
>I've done magic
Good for you.
>even other annoying Christists hate him
I'd think that would indicate some things to someone as self aware as you claim to be.
>>355874
But the books are always available too.
Like, just click the link.
>>355874
>God
The amount of assumption behind you using that word without an article and capitalizing it as well is just mind-boggling.
>>355876
Just telling it like it is man. That is why Buddha came anyway because people were MISUSING the Vedas and performing animal sacrifices to make ends meet. Big reason why he denied the Vedas and Hinduism
Perhaps I am the only one who cares, but I hope someone makes sense of what I say because it is common sense.
>>355894
Anyone wanna talk about stellar myths, like I suggest in the OP?
>>355906
Curious about what they are...?
>>355912
Myths
>>355907
Lol, I meant like a, an or the.
>>355917
I'm personally very interested in goddess myths. I find the Celtic ones that I have heard quite compelling, but not sure about their historical validity...?
>>355919
Lol and i meant like
http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib70.html
>>355927
>celtic
If it's about stars and constellations, I'm 110% all ears.
>>355927
Ooo, also, I am VERY interested in magical storytelling, but don't know much beyond my own intuition.
It seems to me that myths, while at times being corruptions of actual historical events, are magical storytelling as well.
>>355943
I can tell you one about the constellations
>>355930
>Presently thou shalt take down the frog from the cross and divide it into two parts; the legs shalt thou cook and eat as a sacrament to confirm thy compact with the frog; and the rest shalt thou burn utterly with fire, to consume finally the aeon of the accursed one. So mote it be!
>Crowley's so hardcore he can't even give a recipe for frog legs without making it a ritual.
#dank
>>355943
>magical storytelling
Beyond the mythological aspect and into actual practical use, I very highly recommend reading "My Voice Will Go With You"; it's a collection of short therapeutic stories that Milton Erickson used to treat his patients.
>>355956
Like I said my friends will be avenged
>>355965
>he doesn't like frog legs
Troll confirmed.
>>355971
I mean crucifixion of a frog sounds like a mental disorder or demonic possesion not spiritual growth.
>>355988
If you think THAT'S bad my current practice routine calls for:
>a human skull
>a human femur
>penis bone from an animal
>various bones of animals ground into dust
>dog tongue
So I'm just going to be blunt here. Why do you think any of this is actually real?
Wouldn't there be some evidence of this if it worked? Why has no one claimed the free million dollars James Randi had on offer for decades if you could simply show something supernatural to be real?
>>356243
nigger
What is meme magic, and why is it working?
>>356308
If it worked. I think there would be some actual proof. And everyone would be doing it.
>>356298
Yup.
>>356279
>real
As in having some sort of concrete objectivity or simply having an effect on behaviors? I tend to leave questions of objective validity to others. I do practice X, result Y happens, I record, and experiment further.
>Randi
The p-values he asks for are fucking absurd even by Bayesian standards. Two studies have actually passed his preliminary test and prize using slightly more reasonable p-values and then the testing process slowly eroded as neither party could agree to the exact details of the control method.
Oddly enough one of the two was a test for an astrological effect. The other was much more psi related and probably weaker in terms of how testing was approached.
>>356308
Ask /pol/.
>>356335
>Two studies have actually passed his preliminary test and prize using slightly more reasonable p-values and then the testing process slowly eroded as neither party could agree to the exact details of the control method.
Have you got any links about them?
I don't get it though, it's really not very hard to prove if something like this works. You either demonstrate it in a controlled lab setting, or you don't. It either works and you have evidence for it, or it doesn't. In couple of hundred years of modern science, I'm certain someone would have come forward with solid evidence, but they haven't.
>>356355
A few possibilities:
>The psychological model is right and we're testing in the wrong spheres of knowledge.
>Long standing bias against even considering the question of esoteric for study outside of taxonomic anthropological ventures.
>Occultism's not about shooting fireballs out of your hands and is probably so subtle that 110% lab control is unachievable at the moment.
>Our statistical methods are fucking broke and we're just not parsing this out.
Here's Ertel's test which passed Germany's GWUP prize to the tune of 10k euro:
https://books.google.com/books?id=YxDddIkpmnYC&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=ertel+ball+drawing+test&source=web&ots=9nR9C7r-ok&sig=-nwbFvKPrs2OZ8nhTmdqzeJut84#v=onepage&q=ertel%20ball%20drawing%20test&f=false
Beirman's replication of Randin's material appears to be down; he achieved p-values equivalent to the preliminary test, iirc, and Randi's folks just didn't get back to him.
Carina Landin's test fell through when JREF wouldn't adhere to the testing parameters, though I doubt she could have made it through prelims in the first place.
On the topic of our stats just being #rekt for everything, not just parapsych, I'd refer you to:
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/28/the-control-group-is-out-of-control/
^Dude's pretty anti-psi, but he points out very little that I outright object to.
If you think THAT'S bad my current practice routine calls for:
>a human skull
>a human femur
>penis bone from an animal
>various bones of animals ground into dust
>dog tongue
This isnt magic this is suffering
>>356418
Or the other possibility, simpler possibility: it's not real.
Might read those links in detail later, but I still stand by what I said, with modern science being around for so long. Surely there would be at least, one, single, tiny piece of evidence that any of it is real. Surely JUST ONE legitimate study.
>>356433
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPISXvQwm_E
>>356442
Sure thing man, enjoy your evening.
>>356442
Hypnotic breast enlargement was claimed to be a thing in the 80's, IIRC. Not really a thing nowadays, and there's still no study that attempts to replicate.
>>356465
>Bem, you are abusing Bayes factor. If Wagenmakers uses your 10^9 Bayes factor to adjust from his prior of 10^-20 to 10^-11, then what happens the next time you come up with another database of studies supporting your hypothesis? We all know you will, because you’ve amply proven these results weren’t due to chance, so whatever factor produced these results – whether real psi or poor experimental technique – will no doubt keep producing them for the next hundred replication attempts. When those come in, does Wagenmakers have to adjust his probability from 10^-11 to 10^-2? When you get another hundred studies, does he have to go from 10^-2 to 10^7? If so, then by conservation of expected evidence he should just update to 10^+7 right now – or really to infinity, since you can keep coming up with more studies till the cows come home. But in fact he shouldn’t do that, because at some point his thought process becomes “Okay, I already know that studies of this quality can consistently produce positive findings, so either psi is real or studies of this quality aren’t good enough to disprove it”. This point should probably happen well before he increases his probability by a factor of 10^9. See Confidence Levels Inside And Outside An Argument for this argument made in greater detail.
>Wagenmakers, you are overconfident. Suppose God came down from Heaven and said in a booming voice “EVERY SINGLE STUDY IN THIS META-ANALYSIS WAS CONDUCTED PERFECTLY WITHOUT FLAWS OR BIAS, AS WAS THE META-ANALYSIS ITSELF.” You would see a p-value of less than 1.2 * 10^-10 and think “I bet that was just coincidence”? And then they could do another study of the same size, also God-certified, returning exactly the same results, and you would say “I bet that was just coincidence too”? YOU ARE NOT THAT CERTAIN OF ANYTHING. Seriously, read the @#!$ing Sequences.
>>356465
Yeah I dunno, just seems odd. Even with the massive amounts of money they poured into paranormal research during the Cold War, they still don't have any legitimate proof? Not just one small piece?
>>356469
So you're trying to say that they consistently get very small anomalies? But the evidence is nothing outrageous so it's simply written off as error?
>>356494
>Even with the massive amounts of money they poured into paranormal research during the Cold War, they still don't have any legitimate proof? Not just one small piece?
Well, the Russians still famously have psychic spies, and shit.
As for proof, they went with the reliable route of drugs, brain-stimulation and hypnosis for military applications.
It's hardly surprising when they ignored the vast amount of magical tradition to the end, presuming psychic ability to be inherent in the human being, rather than incidental to it (astrology, time, cosmic radiation, etc. etc. etc.).
Any rigorous experiment should account for those things which the claim relies on -- otherwise results will be, at the very best, inconclusive.
>>356494
No.
>Earlier this month Bem came back with a meta-analysis of ninety replications from tens of thousands of participants in thirty three laboratories in fourteen countries confirming his original finding, p < 1.2 * -1010, Bayes factor 7.4 * 109, funnel plot beautifully symmetrical, p-hacking curve nice and right-skewed, Orwin fail-safe n of 559, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
If any study of psi has rung the bell, it's this one, and folks are still doubtful of results that are better than some pharmaceutical tests.
The fact that someone's getting these p-values and otherwise rational people are just replying with "no-huh" implies to both the author and myself that we need to rectify our body of statistical knowledge before we can approach positive or negative settling of particular questions once and for all.
Even if/when we do unfuck our stats, it's my personal opinion that hard answers on broad topics aren't just going to appear. What derascinates one psi study may or may not have any bearing on another testing different perceived effects.
>>356525
>mfw the dragon notes now have a 6 page lesson on the kalas
>>354656
Science accounts for the lens, religion studies the lens.
>>354606
to enlarge your astral dick
>>356634
>muh penis
>>356903
YHVH in the sense of the cosmic elemental formula? Yeah, sorta, but IAO seems to take slightly more precedence at least in Crowley's V&V material.
Surprisingly little. Seriously, compare the Enochian magical corpus with the text of the Book of Enoch. Enochian magic's much more related to the Hekhalot tradition than anything else.
Hey ape this has honestly always been an interest of mine, glad there's a sort of general for it now. I don't know if this is a stupid question but have you ever read anything regarding other realms/ worlds? Icelanding fae beliefs etc. the topic is very important to me.
>>357075
I'm not into fey but the implication of other realms of being is pretty much assumed through all of occultism. For example, the Enochain materials I'm referring to are divided into 'Aethyrs' or 'Aires' which are concentric circles outside of "reality" starting with the closest to the material world and ending at the throne of God. There's also a lot of locality implication.
In many cases the Hermetic Kabbalah posits that various spirits of various natures originate from the spiritual realm of the sephira they're correlated to.
Pathworking the Tree implies spiritual projection into the topography of the Tree.
>>357087
what do you mean by "locality implication"? A link between certain places in different realms?
>>357270
A link between here and there. Each Aethyr is also tied to a given location on earth.
It's all in the 'keepslience' link at the top of the thread, particularly in the section on the 91 Governors.
>>357285
thank you
>>357312
Not a problem, friendo.
What can you do with magic, exactly? What are it's limits, why can't you throw fireballs with your hands, for example?
What do the occult and people who practice magic believe in? Are they polytheists?
>>357398
>What can you do with magic, exactly? What are it's limits, why can't you throw fireballs with your hands, for example?
Theoretically speaking I guess anything's possible, and there are some extraordinary incidents reported through history...I've seen some real shitty shit myself, but when it comes down to an hour later all you've got is an anecdote.
Generally in my experience things are more about indirect effects. You can't shoot a fireball at your nemesis but you could encourage an electrical fire. An entity from Lemegeton may not open the locked treasure chest in front of you but may sneak your name into a class action lawsuit. You may not be able to cure Alzheimer's but you may manage other aggravating and chronic though nonterminal systems. You probably won't become a Living God™ but may have many intimate experiences with any given number of them, and maybe even carry them with you.
The essential limit is what you put into it.
>>357405
Depends.
You've got traditional Hebrew Kabbalists who are monotheistic and borderline atheist. You've got Muslim mystics, you've got Christian Rosicrucians, you've got Neopagans, Pagan reconstructionists, Thelemites and everything in between.
At the end of the day I'd probably call myself an Igtheist. Most questions w/r/t God aren't even beginning to approach the right questions. I venerate many different gods, but only attribute an objective validity to a very small handful of them (the one's I've had significant interaction with, usually).
>>357522
The problem with that is Occultism isn't a religion in the sense of Buddhism or Christianity with monolithic sects.
You can talk about Pagans and there's a 99% chance they'll identify as polytheistic. Not so much for a Rosicrucian, who will be a Christian, or a traditional Hebrew Kabbalist who will be Jewish.
Occultism refers to the "occult" or hidden esoteric practices across multiple traditions. Many people will practice eclecticism or even form a group for full blown synchretism.
Hell, I'd even go so far as to assert that magick in and of itself doesn't even have to be religious in the sense of development or dogma.
So yes, it depends greatly on the tradition in which you're speaking. Occult is simply a header for 'hidden'.
>>355078
>Even Promethia gets iffy
where does promethea get iffy?
>>355557
all consistent with judaism
>>357422
>but when it comes down to an hour later all you've got is an anecdote.
Then why don't you record these events to prove to the world that it's actually real?
>>355936
When I first began to look at botanical text books to find
out more about this herb, Campanula rapunculus, I had a
hunch that the herb, like parsley, would be a medicinal one
recommended for "women's complaints" or be of particular
benefit in preventing miscarriage; but I had no idea that the
sexual life of the plant would itself recapitulate the sexual
drama of the fairy tale. I found no indication that the herb
was prescribed by midwives, but I began to suspect that if my
first recognition of one pattern connected to a hidden pattern,
then there might be more yet to discover. The textbooks indi-
cated that the flower of rapunzel was fivefold, and then I rec-
ognized the next level of "the pattern that connects."
Fivefold flowers are associated with the planet Venus. In-
deed, one of them is even called "Venus's Looking Glass," and
this is because the flower is a mirroring reflection of the pat-
tern that the apparent movement of Venus makes in the sky.
"As above, so below."
That is to say, the apparent movement
of the planet in the pre-Copernican world view, for in all this
ancient lore, we have indeed moved back in time before mod-
ern Renaissance astronomy.
If Rapunzel is Venus, then Frau Gothel, the "Bright God," must be the moon, and the conjunction of the two is a story,
not only of plants but of the
heavenly bodies as well.
And if Rapunzel is Venus, could it be that the Prince is Mars,
and that what is being dramatized is what the ancients called
"the courtship of Mars and Venus"? If one considers Figure 4
for a moment, one will begin to see just why the ancients
called it so.
>>358067
Mars is by himself for a while, and then his circuit
intersects with Venus, and he lays with her, or, in our tale, she
lays her hand in his; they stay in conjunction for a while, then the moon returns, he is driven out and wanders into the wil-
derness, or the vast dark regions of the solar system, away
from her and Earth. What Figure 4 shows, then, is the
courtship of Mars and Venus, and it tells us once again that
for the mythopoeic imagination of the ancients, knowledge,
and complex astronomical knowledge, was stored in images
and hieroglyphs. We moderns, with our prosaic, ratiocinative,
reductionistically inclined minds that are addicted to statistics
and linear quantification but not to pattern recognition, took
many of these images literally in a stupid fundamentalist way,
for this enabled us to debunk "the primitive, prescientific
mentality" and feel confident in the triumphs of industrial so-
ciety. But this is as stupid as someone in a future culture mak-
ing fun of us because we spoke of solar winds and magnetic
fields, as if space were some sort of park.
If Rapunzel is Venus, Frau Gothel the Moon, and the
Prince Mars, then one suspects that the mother must be
Mother Earth, and that the intimate relationship between the
mother and the sorceress is the close relationship of the Earth
and the Moon. Who then is the husband? If my interpretation
of the tale is valid, and that the story is about the movement
from an unstable couple to a stable couple in the achievement
of a true husband and father, then the first husband is the
avuncular mother's brother and not the father; since the hus-
band plays the role of the messenger who goes back and forth
to bring the mother what she needs,
>>358080
I suspect that he is Mer-
cury, "the messenger of the gods." Mercury is called the mes-
senger because it is a busy little planet, one that moves
constantly back and forth, for in its circuit around the Earth.
the pattern is not one of five, but twenty-two. (See Figure 5.)
The King is. obviously, the Sun. and the vast reaches of his
kingdom are the solar system itself. When Mars wanders out
alone in the dark reaches of space, he is lost in the wilderness.
but when he returns into conjunction with Venus, the family
of planets is constellated. Similarly. when Venus rises out of
the underworld as the morning star with the twin stars of Castor and Pollux in the sign of Gemini, which occurs in the
springtime, she becomes the sign of the return of life and the
coming abundance of the riches of the solar king, the sum-
mer's harvest and the continuity of life after the wasteland
and suffering of winter.
>>358048
Non-magic practitioner so far, but the answer to
>Then why don't you record these events to prove to the world that it's actually real?
Is at least a few things
>sometimes a ritual might not be for a viewable result
Like experiencing the presence of an entity without having the entity in the physical space with you. Thus, only documentation is an anecdotal feeling of a presence.
>easy to write something off as fake
As our audio and video capabilities in life advances, so too does our ability to manipulate such things. We can say something observed or documented through image or video is some elaborate trick to deceive the viewer through special effects. People do this, and I am even skeptical about the documented effect when I am shown this. In such cases it's perfectly rational to disbelieve in the shown effect as you shouldn't just immediately believe everything you see on the internet.
>easy to write off as coincidence
I wanted to elaborate more on this point, but all I'm coming up with is that there is no strictly controllable environment as the universe is one big physics box. Main point is that it is easy to write things off as coincidence.
Ultimately it seems the only way to "prove" something is to do the event and show the effect in person where someone can experience the effect firsthand. Even then, sometimes it's still something that can just be written off as coincidence. Get enough people together who conform to the belief that it was just by chance the effect happened, and there might be no way to objectively prove to all those people that the event and effect were genuine.
Keep in mind I'm like 40% sure I'm being accurate with these statements and it might be better to wait for someone who knows more on the subject to answer.
>>358024
so like kabala and other forms of magic written into another form of magic that guided dee and kelley to c-ucking eachother wives
>>357422
>You may not be able to cure Alzheimer's
I have it on good authority that using hypnotherapy to prevent Alzheimer's before it gets too bad has been immensely successful in a handful of cases.
>you may manage other aggravating and chronic though nonterminal systems
Stephen Parkhill specializes in using hypnotherapy to get "terminal" cancer patients back to full health. His book, "Answer Cancer" is a good intro into the how and why.
Why is there a regular magic thread on here? Either go run in the woods naked or move to /x/ where you belong
>>354796
>Dee origin of LVX
That's pretty fascinating, I never knew where it came from. The GD material is all from the Cypher MSS and various other fairly obvious sources, but the RR et AC material is a little more obscure- Moina points to Mathers' 'Occult Teachers' at one point, others say the whole thing was scryed by Moina.
Dee mentioning it as 'the final word of magistry' is interesting. Regardless of whether Mathers actually knew what he meant by this (i.e. whether or not he actually received the teaching Dee's talking about), Dee's comment here suggests that at the time, LVX was as far as the system went, so Crowley's innovations were quite a step forward
>>359149
I honestly think Lover's Call was redacted for its keyword content. I *hope I'll have notes on stellar transvocation done today.
>>359165
You're way ahead of me, my work has stalled a little this week due to work, but should have the weekend to get going again with the wiki (and my reading)
What, you mean the XON bit? I wonder- if it was a 2spooky inner secret, he wouldn't have put it in that Michael Howard book. Kind of makes you wonder what else was redacted though- the original was like 3 volumes long (though that may just have been chumbley being chumbley)
>>359184
I imagine the significant content is in the Lover's Call are the bits that we're missing. Analysis, etc.
Don't worry about falling behind, I'll be working on notes hard enough for both of us. Besides, we've got till Jan/Feb before the real Work starts.
>>359198
If analysis is supposed to be in there (which would make sense, given Chumbley's adherence to the GD template in other areas) for XON, it might be something we could look into reverse engineering later on. Presumably you're supposed to do it after the White Sun, so it's something we can worry about a bit further down the line.
>>359328
Already working on it friendo.
If I can pull a reasonable approximation of the NOX analysis, I'm sure I can crack this too; already have ideas, it'll just take time.
>>356326
>everyone would be doing it
But everybody is doing it, all the time.
Reality is a meme.
>>357075
I've actually seen and followed one of the paths the little people take through the forest. I'm pretty sure they're real.
>>357392
>whatdoesthefoxsay.jpg
>>359363
Amazing, I'll be very interested to see what you come up with.
I suspect there are a couple more lacunae throughout the book- Robert Fitzgerald said Chumbley wanted the book released in order to bring suitable people to the CS. My guess is that he meant "people who are capable of figuring out how to use the system correctly"
>>359394
Me too, I just don't fuck around with fey
>yet, the Dragon Book of Essex has some fey oriented aspects.
>>359413
>XON
Xaos
? (Ophiuchus?)
Nuit
Babalon and Beast conjoined.
That's just my first suspicion. Another's a redactive blind to the old form, NYX, with the sign of Apophis at the center, but that's probably farther from the mark.
Woah, is this shit finally leaving /x/? Can we finally be fucking free of shit again???
>>359435
>don't fuck around with fey
pretty much the worst that can happen is they take your firstborn and replace it with a doppelganger.
not too bad all things considered
>>359441
Yes, you're finally free of having any anthrohistorical content in these conversations. Good luck with the sage input of Tomoko, Pet3r, and Raine Ashford. Plus whichever wandering /b/friends are posting about ilerminooty and succubus tulpas.
>>359486
/x/ is for creepy, shitposting can be reported. When underaged occultfags totally leave /x/ and the mods decide to step up their efforts we can finally discuss interesting things as the board was intended for without teenage idiocy. One step at a time.
>>354547
Is that not more a subject for /x/ ? What does it have to do with /his/ ?
Lately I've been doing the LRP with the pentagrams of active and passive spirit and it has brought about some interesting experiences.
>>355132
Should probably be pointed out for that dude that:
ONA is a 'group' in the loosest sense of the term. Pretty much zero structure, debateable if they even have anything outside of the internet. They're hardcore edgelords, but if Satanism or the LHP is your thing, their system appears to be pretty robust. Lots of material in the library
CS is extremely secretive, and have a policy of refusing anyone who asks to join (if they want you, they'll find you). However, that's no barrier to using their material, several of their grimoires are in the library. If witchcraft (or just magic in general) is what you're looking for, look no further.
I wasn't aware that AMOOKOS were still active, but their material is supposed to be great, if tantra is your thing.
There's also GD, but that definitely requires having a formal group- if you're trying to self-initiate, you'd be much better off going for A.'.A.'., it's a much-refined version of the system
TO seem interesting, but they don't have a website or anything like that, I honestly don't know much about them
Do you have something on ESPers? I have suddenly become curious about these things.
>>360045
I've seen active O9A groups, they're out there.
CS has sent out the clarion call. DBoE is the gateway. Since starting to work DBoE I've come across a handful of CS members who seem more than willing to discuss the fine details of the outer mysteries.
They have a contact address for a reason.
AMoKoS is definitely still active, Mike Magee still runs the website, and Magee's trusted Phile Hine to take up the work of the order in case Magee's dead or incapacitated.
TO waffles between great and garbage.
>>360326
Not really.
>>359872
How interesting?
>>360370
Well mainly running into a lot more occultism related stuff in the mundane world like rare books and people involved in occultism than I would typically expect. Also just finding myself having more novel mystical insight than I would typically expect. It is still the LRP so no world-shattering visions or anything like that yet. Most sources only talk about the LRP with the Earth pentagrams and a few talk about using it to banish or invoke the other elements but no source that I found discusses the spirit pentagram in any sort of depth so I figured I just give them a try.
>>360370
>CS has sent out the clarion call. DBoE is the gateway. Since starting to work DBoE I've come across a handful of CS members who seem more than willing to discuss the fine details of the outer mysteries.
Actually, one of my GD lodge brothers knows an ex-student of Chumbley's, must see if I can get in touch with him
I seem to remember some /x/fag who did a pretty great O9A thread a while back- he wasn't a member himself but he seemed to have a decent amount of knowledge about them on the ground.
>>360443
I also want to add that when doing the LRP with them the visualization of the archangels is more difficult than usual because it seems like they are covered by this overwhelming white light that isn't present when using the other forms of the pentagram.
I have similarly tried the LRP using the inverted (point down) forms of the pentagram. When visualizing the archangel then they seem strangely cut-up and distorted like I am looking at them in a broken mirror.
>>360646
>I guess he really is more prominent over there than here in Lardland.
I dunno, isn't Schulke American? I get the feeling the Burger contingent might outnumber the Bong contingent.
I don't think they have any cells here, unless they're over the border. Certainly haven't heard of any, anyway
>>359068
>I'll have to hunt those down.
The Alzheimer thing I got first hand from Roy Hunter, whose acquaintance (friend?) worked the case.
The Answer Cancer book is in the GDrive shared earlier (I think).
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwLJ8mj-ZuoGc0NKUEtoLTBmQXc
Should be in the Fundamentals or Therapy folder.
The various thelebros itt might know this- how long until the fluid in the Dragon Vessel solidifies?
I'm going to have to transport this thing on a bus a few days before Black Sun, something I'm not looking forward to, given the contents, and the fact that the box isn't watertight.
I think there's like 10 days during the interstitial period where it'll remain unopened (though iirc you need to tie cloth around it). Think that'll be enough time for the liquid to solidify somewhat?
>>361215
Probably. Worst comes to worst and just wrap it up a few times with like plastic cling wrap and a few plastic bags.
>>361736
What is this?
>>361770
The form of the ritual circle for Cultus Sabbait, at least your outdoor one. the 'Blood Acre'.
Double ouroboros, with the north or bottom circle left untouched other than simply sweeping it.
The sigils I'm not 100% sure about. Provided they aren't the sigils of the elemental guardians themselves, they're the personal sigils for the elemental servitors.
>>361770
>>361792
Also, the usage at the radices just doesn't make sense unless there's something later in the text I've not processed. Colors should relate to rite and season; using the radices only cuts the number of color usage in half.
It could easily be dude's (think it came from someone else's notes) personal comment that only has bearing on the practice of that guy.
At last, I truly see
>>361880
RYZHKND?
Lord, even the website's in caps.
>>361736
I haven't touched on the circle stuff much yet.
Are those intended to be drawn on the ground?
That adds an extra layer of pain-in-the-ass to this. I'm very likely going to be doing this on grass, as my hometown doesn't have forests that would do the job.- even ones further away wouldn't have the kind of forest floors you could draw on.
'Magic' seems fishy to me, but I can acknowledge there may be certain transcendental factors beyond perception. Lately I've been wondering if that's were the 'fire' of artists come from, or if they have anything to do with it.
And assuming I was to get into occultism, for mere study, is there anywhere in particular I should begin?
>>361917
Those meaning...?
If you got gravedust your'e good to go. I think bare minimum to actually make marks for is the double ourobors, and then the compass rose, though you could do that sans dust just using the Hallowing, which is implied for the Dark Moon rituals.
>An occultism thread
PLEASE don't make this place fucking /x/ shit man. This place actually has potential.
>>361943
>mere study
Well, that's going to narrow you down a bit. There's a beginner's folder in my library link at the top. I think there's a copy of Manly Hall's "Secret Teachings" in that folder if not a few other folders too.
Corpus Hermeticum or Chaldean Oracles if you plan on applying any study.
I'd say Magick in Theory and Practice but it implies working some system or at least basic familiarity with the GD program.
Like, what are you interested in, that'll probably help give a more coherent answer.
>>361955
Would you like to talk about Enochiana of the 1500's or stellar myth as mentioned in the OP?
We've had a few threads with great interaction and a large amount of primary source material being passed around.
Poke about the library. Half of it's academic anthropology and history related. Or post some material of your own.
This place may have potential, but your bitching does not. Potential is why I'm here, as the threads I'd been making on /x/ had been eroding in quality steadily for a long time.
>>361915
Yep.
I didn't understand what he meant with that, but when I saw the painting I suddenly got it.
>>361977
I guess general Gnosticism. Things about the nature of reality or what leis beyond from a magical perspective
>>362001
I dig hence why I'm scratching my head a bit at that particular image. There's no direct rite to establish the servitors, at least 200 pages in. The implication I'm getting thus far is that they're slowly built out of the ashes of practice; some gravedust from the circle here, ash from a fire there, etc.
>>362022
Makes me wonder if he yanked the image from one of my threads, honestly. What's that guy's deal, anyhow? Most of his posts are a bit incoherent, and the website's only got bits and pieces I agree with.
>>361955
>reading this thread
>people actually believe this shit
>>362030
>Gnosticism
For base study you want "Gnosis: Nature and History of Gnosticism" by Rudolph.
Still one of the best histories/anthropological reconstructions I've seen on the topic.
It's in my Gnosticism folder.
Also, give your response, I'd double down on Corpus and Chaldean as good introductory material.
>>362041
>There's no direct rite to establish the servitors, at least 200 pages in.
Direct, no, but also notice the elemental attributions, and the timings. IF I am correct about the way Chumbley has laid things out in time, the elemental servitors should emerge in practical application directly from the rituals you go through. The issue is, you're going to have to actually build them radices, and make things work elementally, which implies that getting shit together precisely to about 5 minutes might be necessary.
>The implication I'm getting thus far is that they're slowly built out of the ashes of practice; some gravedust from the circle here, ash from a fire there, etc.
Yeah, but how do you build a radix for something which doesn't have a specific moment in time when it "comes to life"?
It appears to me that Chumbley leaves that out. My thoughts are to give them a specific moment in time where they reify, and then calculate their nativities from that moment, making sure their elemental relationships are actual, rather than only conceptual.
>>361950
Sorry, by 'those' I mean the sigils, as well as the compass.
Haven't acquired gravedust yet, but there's an old graveyard near my house, Shouldn't be much of an issue to get some.
Marking it out in dust would work on the grass, so actually that would work fine. The fire is still the big issue- I'm short on places where it can be hidden at night, I think I have a decent spot, although it's near houses and the road. People starting fires would get the police called quickly enough, I suspect, but we'll see what it's like in practice.
>>362041
>There's no direct rite to establish the servitors, at least 200 pages in
I searched for 'Servitor' in the pdf, there's nothing at all, not even an oration. Either it's been redacted for some reason, or your suggestion that they're cumulative might be correct.
>>362041
>Makes me wonder if he yanked the image from one of my threads
Well, I made the image with text over it, not him.
He's autistic, but personally 'weird' too.
http://www.thesectofthehornedgod.com
Thoughts on these guys? Legit?
>>362072
>Left Hand Path
>have Copyrights
>no lineage
Yeah, no.
Also they're borrowing imagery from very weird sources; I find it hard to take seriously in any extent.
>>362072
Satanic bullshit
>>362061
>Yeah, but how do you build a radix for something which doesn't have a specific moment in time when it "comes to life"?
It does, first call to the corners at Black Sun. That's the first spiritual feeding of the hearthfire. You build your pentagrams then toss them into the fire. Another option would be the consecration moment, again at Black Sun.
>It appears to me that Chumbley leaves that out. My thoughts are to give them a specific moment in time where they reify, and then calculate their nativities from that moment, making sure their elemental relationships are actual, rather than only conceptual.
I'm going to have to look at the sky. No idea what the planets are up to at the moment.
There are probably key components of the doctrine I'm missing here.
>>362065
>I searched for 'Servitor' in the pdf, there's nothing at all, not even an oration. Either it's been redacted for some reason, or your suggestion that they're cumulative might be correct.
Lemme hunt around and ponder, maybe look up the guardian's true names individually.
>>362060
Thanks, will get to that.
>>362106
Not a problem.
>>362061
The preliminary description of the vessels implies you may well be right:
>In flesh, let them be gathered in the circle of the fourfold covine to make manifest the Spirit of the Antient One upon the cross-ways of the earthen domain. In fetish, let them be wrought and positioned to watch and ward the many ways to-and-from the Shrine of Arte.
Interesting. Now how to reconcile the radicies and the cardinal directions.
>>362134
>Now how to reconcile the radicies and the cardinal directions.
You don't have to; go with the Solomonic directions, as the servitors are literally meant to be Angels manifest through their medium; Agrippa goes into it, IIRC.
Basically, it's all astrology, growing a cake of cardboard, blood and ejaculate, and some fairly basic psychology.
At least far as I can tell.
>>362148
>You don't have to; go with the Solomonic directions, as the servitors are literally meant to be Angels manifest through their medium; Agrippa goes into it, IIRC.
Yeah, that's a thing. Also I imagine there doesn't HAVE to be a literal connection between the radix and corner it takes; there seems to be a degree of separation; angels through medium.
On the planets, only the Air element is going to be out of whack (Mars in Libra, only planet in an air sign), the others have nice 1/1 correlations.
>>362165
>the Air element is going to be out of whack (Mars in Libra, only planet in an air sign),
Mars -> Geburah -> Woman girt with a sword (i.e. Air)
in
Libra -> Air.
GBR-AL.
Jesus.
attains a jhana here ?
please share your experience in details ?
>>360370
>Mike Magee still runs the website,
Does magee claim initiation from any indian lineage?
>>362565
not confirmed by any authority but i believe I have. A couple of times when shamatha-bhavana 30 minutes daily and occasionally longer i'd be able to sit for extended period with unbroken concentration on chosen object. mental silence that made me realize how unceasing my self-talk was and how I longed for silence on a deep powerful level. If i hold focus, strange sensor phenomena, strange smells, strobing visuals, heat or cold. if i hold focus, rapturous pleasure expanding out from gut into hole body. At most powerful, so pleasurable it became uncomfortable and I wanted it to stop. this tended to kick off inner chatter and the state would subside. the second time, I got deeper, and managed to get back to a degree the next couple of days but both times my practice derailed shortly after, i think in no small part because of longing for jhana and the attendant frustration. As a result couldn't deepen or explore the state.
>>362010
Has anyone posted any stellar myth since I posted Thompson's conjectures on Rapunzel? This topic seems like a lost cause. If you're taking requests, i'd love a post on development of kabbalah. If you want to be my bff, a series of posts on history of kabbalah.Thanks again for the library and hanging around answering questions and such.
This thread has some pretty neat potential. Especially if we try to keep it more about the works themselves and different varieties than the usual arguments over whats "real" or not, nobody enjoys that because it goes nowhere.
Anyway, are there any interesting modern esoteric works worth reading? Things from the 50's onwards (preferably other than Theosophy and Crowley-style works)?
>>363248
after how many hours have you manage to hit jhana ?
>>363501
reality is just a social construct family. anything is real if you believe in it
>>363535
total? I don't know, but daily practice for a couple months and semi-regularly for a long while before.
That sit? don't know precisely, but less than two hours
Well lm a Jew who also am in a spirit possession community that's very old in my particular jewish culture.
Idk its normal to me, the study of occultism and magic from people who don't engage in real ceremony is rather strange. Though admittingly not as bad as neopagans and their "ceremonies".
>>363626
>people who don't engage in real ceremony
People who engage in ceremony are retards.
This is what pisses me off so much about the occult. It's not scientific or analytical in 90% of the shit that I've seen. That's why Bardon is the best thing to happen in the last 150 years.
In Zār its a healing tradition that helps mental and emotional aligment and a means of supporting and maintaining female bargaining power in patriarchal Abrahamic religious communities.
I mean that's what the researchers say and I can totally see where they're coming from however it's more than that. Like all faiths it will never be scientific or even fully comprehended by outsiders. There is no point desu.
