Rhodesian History
I am somewhat fascinated by the history and politic of Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe.
I hear they had some interesting military practices as far as their scouting regiments and such, but of course a troubled racial history.
What does /his/ think of Rhodesia?
Does /his/ know of any good material on Rhodesia and its history?
Pic related is a Rhodesian Ridgeback, a species of dog said to be fiercely courageous and capable of fending off lions.
Rhodesia is /pol/s husbando.
Check out Requiem for Rhodesia
>>329340
Are there no non-racist accounts of Rhodesia that don't characterize it as racist?
>>329356
No because it was in fact racist, same with SA and Namibia for its entire colonial history
>>329356
"Non racist accounts"
What the fuck does this even mean?
Non racist has no sensible meaning.
The only people talking about Rhodesia right now are the politically insensitive who are assigned little credibility, and the liberal ideologues who love to campaign for their individualist bigoted bullshit which involves the narrative "What Mugabe did could not have been predicted," or "Every time a malaria carrying misquito bites the 18th child of an African prostitute it's because of the failures of colonialism" or most likely some combination of the two
The people who actually have sense have the sense not to talk about Rhodesia because they know everyone in the discussion has taken a side and they can't join the discussion without taking a side. Taking a side will result in a whole lot of negative ramifications with regards to their credibility reputation etc etc. So the wise and sensible are not part of the dicssusion
>>329370
They literally had a minority rule colony that marginalized the vast majority of native people.
That's not taking a side, their very leaders spoke on racial superiority and supremacy.
>>329370
>"Non racist accounts"
>What the fuck does this even mean?
I meant like an account by an individual who wasn't an explicit racist, since the suggested "Requiem for Rhodesia" is apparently hosted by Stormfront.
I was aware they likely had lots of racist discriminatory policy, but I guess I was wondering if there was any nonracist redeeming quality to it, perhaps as somewhat of a defense of colonialism.
>>329363
Back to reddit
>>329356
No. Because Rhodesia was a white supremacist state.
It's like trying to find an account of the U.S.S.R. that doesn't characterize it as Marxist.
>>329404
Fair enough, I can see your point.
>>329370
M8, the government had people arrested and covered up any and all evidence of Mutapa being built or run by the black natives
It's about as racial revisionist as it gets
>>329385
Try finding some memoirs from Rhodesia. Remember that they're subjective and the prose isn't that great as they're usually written by ex-farmers. Try Ron Morkel's Rhodesia: From Beginning to End for a somewhat interesting family story, from the early settlers to Mugabe's rise to power. He isn't blind to the racism in Rhodesia, but he's seen first-handed how Mugabe, backed by the west, ran the country into the dirt and was allowed to do so thanks to post-colonial guilt tripping.
Ian Smith himself also wrote an autobiography called Bitter Harvest which I recommend. He goes through his upbringing, his time in the army during ww2, how he was initially reluctant to enter politics, etc.
Rhodesia was called "the bread-basket of Africa", was incredibly productive in terms of food production and mining, it went for around a century without seeing any real warfare and never pulled any Leopold in Congo-tier shit on the natives. Large parts of Rhodesia were also pretty much uninhabited before colonization came, and the native population only exploded when colonial rule brought an end to the most bitter fights between the Shona and the Ndbele peoples, as well as introducing medicine. So yeah, plenty of redeeming qualities to it imo.
Whenever I see people bash Rhodesia I wonder, would you rather:
>Be well-fed, safe from wars and live in a place with very little crime, but have to stand behind whitey in the que
or
>Live in starvation because your corrupt government has handed out all the farmland to people who know jack shit about farming, risk being killed and robbed on a daily basis and be dead by 37, but at least your dictator got your back if you want to stab old whitey at his farm. Don't worry about standing in the back of the grocery line, because a loaf of bread literally costs 500 trillion dollars.
>>329329
I had a geology prof that had travelled there to do research on granites. Not sure what date it was but he said it was very hairy, his hosts played tennis with a sten gun beside the court for instance.
In my opinion the white minority government couldn't see the way the wind was blowing and didn't give enough concessions early enough to retain power. What they did do was too late.
>>329356
Don't listen to any other faggots.
>>329383
Qq faggot.
Minority rule was kept in because the British failed at actually educating the population.
>>329731
On the last note of your post there.
Ian Smith challanged Mugabe to walk with him alone through downtown Salsibury, no security. Mugabe declined because he knew only one person would come back alive, and it wouldn't be him.
>>329329
Short version: Rhodesia wasn't as racist as pop culture portrays it but it was more racist than /k/ thinks it was.
Being a white-minority-ruled government that self-declared independence despite British disapproval it was basically doomed to fail from the start.
>>329356
get When the Crocodile eats the sun for making you rage.
then get Moorcraft, Paul L.; McLaughlin, Peter (2010). The Rhodesian War: A Military History to know the history.
>>329731
>people bash Rhodesia I wonder
Pointing out that Rhodesia's government had some elements of white supremacy isn't "bashing' it just fact. Even if you try to spin it as "letting the smartest rule to ensure stability" it wasn't a equitable democracy by any means.
>>329329
you can see the introductory works:
African Wars of Independence
http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199791279/obo-9780199791279-0022.xml?rskey=Ypc4iA&result=2&q=zimbabwe#firstMatch
this is the only book in link that explicitly mentions rhodesia in its description
Turner, John W. Continent Ablaze: The Insurgency Wars in Africa 1960 to the Present. Johannesburg: Jonathan Ball, 1998.
>An overview of insurgency in late-20th-century Africa with chapters on Rhodesia and South West Africa (Namibia).
politics in southern africa
http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199756223/obo-9780199756223-0114.xml?rskey=Ypc4iA&result=1&q=zimbabwe#firstMatch
bookzz.org to download some free
Whitey dindu nuffin.
>>330212
>Whyte supremacists
Technically whites were "supreme" based on education and civil life. 80% of African Rhodesians were rural and I can't remeber the percentage that were tribal.
But you're also implying that "democracy" is the only and absolute acceptable and just form of government.
When nobody has really ever attempted to challange the ideal.
Read "democracy: the God that failed".
>>330192
And the white Rhodesian population by and large made no attempts at having an educated class phase itself in.
Cut the romanticizing and revisionism.
>I was the archaeologist stationed at Great Zimbabwe. I was told by the then-director of the Museums and Monuments organisation to be extremely careful about talking to the press about the origins of the [Great] Zimbabwe state. I was told that the museum service was in a difficult situation, that the government was pressurising them to withhold the correct information. Censorship of guidebooks, museum displays, school textbooks, radio programmes, newspapers and films was a daily occurrence. Once a member of the Museum Board of Trustees threatened me with losing my job if I said publicly that blacks had built Zimbabwe. He said it was okay to say the yellow people had built it, but I wasn't allowed to mention radio carbon dates...
>It was the first time since Germany in the thirties that archaeology has been so directly censored.
>t. Paul Sinclair
Daily reminder that you have no business browsing a history board if you sympathise with Rhodesia.
>>330242
Except they did, sure they didn't rush out to build tens of thousands of schools in the brush, but they certainly made no hindering for education.
>>330243
Lmfao.
I'll sympathize with them all I want.
Supression of
>Black(Holy)
>African (Roman)
>Nationalism(Empire)
Is all it was attempting to do. And there is considerable evidence it was built by semetic colonizers.
>>330251
>And there is considerable evidence it was built by semetic colonizers.
Can you name one modern accredited historian who still believes this?
>>330255
Geneticist do. (^:
Historians only get
>"""""""accredited""""""""
If they follow the institutions standard.
If you don't believe there is corruption in historical studies see Egyptology.
>>330251
They provided low level education to have a black population just above menial work who would align themselves to white rule.
They did not attempt to make political and economic native elite who'd take over their position.
Stop with the dindu revisionism
>>330251
>>330266
Oh, look it's the Rhodesia fanboy again. I thought you gave up trying to push this meme country here.
>>330243
>this same buttmad nigger from America posting this same old garbage
Do you have autism?
>>330269
Most blacks were rural and tribal. Not needing or demanding education. Mind you they had not had a state before this, and we're actually basically a bunch of warring tribes.
When UDI happened they worked with what they had and made sure the African population had garuenteed representation in parliment (8 tribal seats and 15 total seats).
Stop with the demonization of history.
>>330270
Oh look the same Butthurt historical revisionist who loves to tell people what they can and can not like.
I have quite literally never made a Rhodesia thread.
>complain when other people defend a country
>constantly attack it
>>330277
>m-muh poor stable, peaceful Rhodesia
>why do people attack a nation with obvious flaws
>Rhodie racism is obvious liberal revisionism and not a legitimate criticism
That's a lotta butthurt for a dead country m80.
>>330287
Attack and criticize are two different things.
Who said it's a flawless nation?
It was the best for what they had, the short lived success of Zimbabwe-Rhodesia proved that. Until the British, again, fucked everything up.
Rhodeisa wasn't racist to anything beyond reality.
There was no racial hatred here.
>>330277
There had been blacks in the capital sense the very beginning. You just said that they in fact were creating a class to take over their position in the event of native rule and now you are saying they had no need for it.
Pick a position and stay there
>>330266
>If you don't believe there is corruption in historical studies see Egyptology
What the fuck does that mean. Do you think "Black Egypt" is something actual academics advocate? Because they don't. Not a single historian would assign a black racial identity to the Egyptians (or any racial identity at all) and not a single historian would try to claim that Great Zimbabwe wasn't built by black people.
Why do Rhodesiaboos ignore that the country was actually better under black rule until the foul up with the War Veterans' Fund?
>>330300
>Attack and criticize are two different things.
You should tell that to the defensive Rhodie fanboys on /k/ and /his then. Because they can't seem to tell.
>Who said it's a flawless nation?
>There was no racial hatred here.
That right there is a crux of the issue. Rhodesia wasn't an "evil super nazi" nation but it's really disingenuous to claim that there wasn't massive racial tensions in the country, not just from the black but also from the Whites. They might've been making steps to be more inclusive but, even based on comments from Ian Smith himself, it was clear many Whites in power wanted the racial hierarchy to continue.
>>330302
>sense
Lol
Anyway.
There were requirments for transferring to black majority rule.
But there was also difficulty with the tribes who didn't want to join the civilization and instead retained their tribal lands (that the British fucked with).
There was also a little war that got in the way. As urbanization continued and more and more Africans joined in eventually they would fill their perspective parts of a cooperative society.
>>330308
Sorry? Not what I was saying at all. Egyptologists are known for suppressing archeology and evidence that is contrary to their collective research. And out cast anyone that disagrees.
Kind of like GHG "climatologists".
>>330311
Proofs?
Zimbabwe-Rhsoesia was an effective cooperative government, but in no way was Mugabe's Zimbabwe in any notion close to being "better than" Rhdoesia.
>>330316
By that I mean you seem to interested in spewing "DAS RAYCIS" because of the results, and not the conditions that existed.
Ian Smith made several Racialist comments but also eliminated racist policies like racial voting requirments.
Sure there were leaders who "desired to retain the racial hierarchy" but not to much of an effective degree.
>racial tensions
What I am saying is you don't have a bunch of White Rhodesians going around saying
>bunch of goddamn niggers Yada Yada
Look at the beginning of this Documentary. Most of status in Rhdoesia was based education and achivement.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0S2NKlMW0vc
This is also the 1960s-70s were talking about.
>>330336
>Egyptologists are known for suppressing archeology and evidence that is contrary to their collective research. And out cast anyone that disagrees.
>Kind of like GHG "climatologists".
proofs?
>>330344
*cough*hawass*cough
>>330356
Actual proofs to the statement
>Egyptologists are known for suppressing archeology and evidence that is contrary to their collective research. And out cast anyone that disagrees.
Hawas could cover
>Egyptologists are known for suppressing archeology
But the rest is a long bow that needs specifics
Rhodesians Never Die by Peter Godwin and Ian Hancock was a fairly interesting chronicle of White Rhodesians society during the bush war. About as unbiased as one can get too in this kind of situation too (though iirc, he really doesn't like Ian Smith and it comes through in the writing). They do a good job of showing the inherent contradictions in Rhodesian society at the time and it makes for a very interesting read.
>>330251
>And there is considerable evidence it was built by semetic colonizers.
Except that's completely wrong, it was built by Black Africans
>>329356
Talk to any black Zim resident that actually lived there. ZANU and Mugabe were the racists, not Smith or Rhodesia.
I knew a pretty chill guy that immigrated after Mugabe went full retard with the Farm raids while I was in Sussex for college (he was from a black family that lived pretty well working on a white farm). He said nothing but praise for Smith, talking about how the country was the breadbasket of Africa even under UK/US sanctions. Then the African nationalists were allowed to take power and just fucked everything up (killing white/black farmers and taking their land which they had no idea how to work).
Funnily enough the economy tanked after that, now Zimbabwe is one of the largest importers of aid. They can't even feed themselves
>>330266
>Geneticist do.
What? That's not true at all.
Great Zimbabwe is generally accepted as having been built by the Shona people, who have virtually no Nilo-Saharan admixture. They're almost entirely of Bantu extraction.
da evil white men killed and plundered
then honorable african ubermenschen killed the evil white men
now finally peace
>>331148
>Yeah here is some anecdotal evidence of my black friend. Take my word for it, White people in Rhodesia were really supportive of blacks. It's the leftists and sjws that changed the truth to fit their agenda.
>>331488
>personal testimoney is only valid when it supports my opinion
Read here friendo.
>>330202
You really are ass blasted about the fact that blacks ruined everything arnt you?
The facts speak for themselves.
Evil whyte raycis supremacist oppressed us by achiveen da highest literacy rates for blacks and whytes in Africa, and elminatin poverty.
Des so raycis and evil kill whytie ooga booga.
As put quite well.
"See how my monstrous civilization, forces you to grow and prosper"
>>329329
Hubbard and the Scientologists considered taking it over for a brief period of time and using it as a safe base to push their teachings world wide.
>>331552
Ask any president to walk outside unattended and they will be in danger.
Mugabe like all leaders has folks who do not like him and wish harm on him.
>Except they did, sure they didn't rush out to build tens of thousands of schools in the brush, but they certainly made no hindering for education.
"Europeans were also disproportionately funded more for education than the majority African population because the Rhodesian government controlled access to quality schools based on race and ethnicity.[13] Segregation of schools based on funding was most extreme in the 1970s because Europeans only represented one percent of Zimbabwe's population, but were allocated 99 percent of government spending on" education.[14] Funding secondary school was also disproportionally offered to Europeans rather than Africans.[14] In the 1970s, only 43.5 percent of African children attended school, while only 3.9 percent of these children enrolled in secondary school.[15]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Zimbabwe#Colonial_government_to_1980
>>331148
>not Smith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBV3PyvK8Kw
>>332816
Top kek.
>>332819
80% of African Rhodesians were Rural, and a large portion of those being tribal.
I could understand why they wouldn't re-enroll into secondary school especially in the 1970s, when the war was at its height.
>>329329
Their dogs are nice.
The fact that breeding with indigenous dogs helped with preventing in breeding and problems associated with it most likely..
>>332946
So you think that justifies 1% of the population enjoying 99% of the education funding? That doesnt seem like the actions of a group that genuinely wanted to prepare the natives for the task of running the country democratically
Why do /pol/tards believe that anyone who criticizes it loves Mugabe and what he did?
>>333289
>Rather than a result of circumstance.
"Throughout colonial Zimbabwe, the education system was racially segregated and disproportionally funded. For many years the colonial government paid attention mainly on funding European education, while African
education survived on grants-in-aid that were allocated to missionaries. The era was characterised by discriminatory policies that marginalised and disadvantaged the majority of the population. While education for the White children was made free and compulsory as far back as 1935, education for the Black population remained a privilege."
-Edward Shizha and Michael T. Kariwo (2011). Education and Development in Zimbabwe
>>333405
I dream of a world where whites are the only race that exist so I don't really give a shit.
>>333405
Where did you pull this from?
And no
He isn't me.
>>333547
>Where did you pull this from?
Holy shit m8, the source is right there.
>>333558
>a man on a tiwansese claymation form just happens to pull out a quote from some random book printed in 2011
It actually doesn't prove much, other than its someone's opinion.
>>329329
>capable of fending off lions.
kekt
>>333405
Just stepping in here, this doesn't make sense at all.
Education was provided for.
Does this book list source of claims?
>>333606
>Just stepping in here, this doesn't make sense at all.Education was provided for.
It does, education was provided indirectly via missionaries rather than in what we would understand by schools run by the state and private sector
>>333741
oh an in response to
>Does this book list source of claims?
It does in a short hand way, however the author seems to be more than just a nobody http://works.bepress.com/e_shizha/cv.pdf
Not be the best source but still better than the unsubstantiated contrarian posts.
