What do historians say about the size and weight of the men in ancient armies? In film the Romans, Spartans etc are always depicted as lean mean fighting machines. But is seems more likely that they were malnourished DYELs.
Where can I read about the physical training they did?
>>313258
I know Hansen talks a bit about it in general in his works, but it's stuff that's scattered throughout, I can't think of a good reference material solely for the levels of nourishment and other physical statistics.
Malnourished DYELs wouldn't be able to do the shit the romans did.
>>313258
If you were in the army or just living in those times, you were physically fit.
You had to be in order to survive, and if you weren't in peak physical condition you didn't really survive that long
>>313258
According to Herodotus, the Spartans did calisthenics for physical training. So I wouldn't be surprised if they looked like smaller versions of modern gymnasts.
As far as height goes, 5'5 seems to be the average from those times. Romans were in particular shocked at how tall the Germans were.
>>313258
Cause Spartans were lean mean fighting machines.
Their entire culture was all about fighting and war and from a young age they had to learn how to survive according to the Agoge.
Also, they did little to no Labour whatsover since they had helot slaves for that shit so all they did was train and eat or beat/kill their slaves for fun.
To my understanding Spartan soldiers were nobles theyd be pretty well fed.
>>313337
Spartans ate at mess halls for a good period of their lives. They were fed pretty simple, bland and small meals to mentally prepare them for lean times in war.
>>313258
Spartans were very much lean mean fighting machines, they were trained in combat and put through harsh trials from a very young age. The lifestyle of a Spartan soldier revolved around war, so they had to be fit, strong, and ready and willing to kill at all times because weakness was unacceptable. Obviously they weren't eating 4000 calories a day and lifting weights so they wouldn't look like the guys in 300, but they would be very capable of doing all the things that war required.
>>313307
What? Really?
Why were romans short
>>313334
Were talking about builds nigger.
You aint building shit without food.
>>313385
Everyone was short back then, even the Vikings were only about 5'7" on average and that was hundreds of years later.
>>313385
Poor diet? 5'5 was a very average height until the industrial revolution. You know how Napoleon is mocked for being short? It was because he was average height and tended to stand next to his Grenadiers who were fucking huge for the time.
They found some gladiator who was 5'10 and he was considered a big guy for Romans.
>>313337
Correct. A warrior was a more noble position than a peasent. A warrior would be payed well and could afford good food.
>>313398
Except in Sparta, every citizen was a warrior until he was in his 50s. And soldiers were fed bland diets with poor nutrition so they would be prepared for starvation on campaign.
>>313389
And they had plenty of it thanks to helots working the fields 24/7 providing them with food for their gains while they slowly starved.
Why do you think Sparta fell into ruin after the helots revolted and left?
>>313404
>every citizen was a warrior until he was in his 50's
That's why over 90% of the population weren't citizens
>>313385
Romans ate grain
Germans ate beef and milk
>>313258
>But is seems more likely that they were malnourished
because weak and famished is how you'd want your fighting force.
>>313258
Why yes OP, it's a well known fact throughout history that all the meanest and most successful armies were filled with starving bean poles.
>>313307
Modern Gymnasts do a lot of weightlifting.
>>313395
>They found some gladiator who was 5'10 and he was considered a big guy for Romans.
I think it was emperor Commodus at 5'11 and 190lbs which would be huge in his time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta#Marriage
>The custom was to capture women for marriage(...) The so-called 'bridesmaid' took charge of the captured girl. She first shaved her head to the scalp, then dressed her in a man's cloak and sandals, and laid her down alone on a mattress in the dark.
They really liked their homosex, huh?
>>313434
Well..yes. I didn't dispute that.
Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if this was an accurate depiction of a hoplite's physique. Lean and muscular but not huge.
>>313258
>>313508
>>313391
>everyone was short
What about those tall ass Watusi people in Africa? They're Northern European-tier tall.
>>313518
>welcome to /fit/ (no homo)
>>313516
Dunno, seems a bit counterproductive to send in soldiers with one leg
>>313525
Genetics.
Skellies of Humans pre and post agriculture usually have a couple of inches in height lost. You can support a larger population on grain but it won't be as healthy as a small tribe that eats berries, nuts, meat, fruit and tubers they gather.
>>313533
>/fit/ being filled with muscular homolust philospohers that discuss the importance of squats and oats out of an aesthetical view
would be the best board on this site to be honest, family
>>313558
It was sort of like that in 2011 but it went to shit within a year.
>>313518
pic related, your average greek
>>313518
The last two paragraphs is certainly an exaggeration. There's no possible way people from older periods of time can ever reach the levels of fitness our athletes today have
>Larger population, meaning we can pick the absolute cream of the crop and specialize traits for a specific task. Also, with such worldwide connectivity, humankind can grab genetic freaks from anywhere on the planet to use for sport.
>Performance enhancing drugs, better nutrition, more efficient training methods, modern medicine and doctors to reliably heal injuries
>Better nutrition among themselves, their parents, grandparents, ect.
The Greeks were literally ottermode manlets m8.
I wouldn't doubt the average HS varsity or college athlete would be just as fit, if not more fit than the Greeks in many aspects.
>>313533
What is it about working out that turns you gay?
>>313452
not by choice.
How do you feed an army of 10000 men that is travelling 1000s of miles by foot? The Mongols would drink their horses blood for nutrition. They weren't washing down filet mignon with protein shakes.
>>313592
you begin to realize that objectively the male physique is more aesthetic than the female
>>313592
You start to gain an appreciation for the male physique (no homo)
(okay maybe a little homo)
>>313593
If you were Spartan, you wouldn't.
Why would they be travelling 1000's of miles, especially by foot?
>>313582
Joff pls go
>>313582
jif go
>>313596
This desu.
A male at his physical peak can slay lions, move mountains, and conquer armies. A female at her physical peak is just lumps of fat that make my dick tingle.
>>313650
Battle of Cunaxa, which wasnt exactly 1000s of miles but still the farthest any spartan had been away from Greece to war.
But then again Cyrus might have made sure his greek soldiers whom were sent by his good friend Lysanders were taken care of and were well fed for one of the dumbest outcomes of any war.
>>313518
Holy shit my sides
>>313258
>In film the Romans, Spartans etc are always depicted as lean mean fighting machines. But is seems more likely that they were malnourished DYELs.
Have you seen Greek statues? How would they know what muscular men look like if they didn't have a lot of muscular men lying around?
>>313258
You wanna know what ancient soldiers looked like? Go hunting for modern special forces pics: though, wiry endurance centered athletes. The single biggest physical quality for infantry is being able to march many miles a day with their equipment on their shoulders.
>>313650
Fun fact, Brasidas marched to Amphipolis. Thats about 750km from Sparta. It's not THAT unreasonable.
>>313558
it actually used to be kind of like that
>>313258
Well we know most Greeks weren't 6+ foot tall blonde men back then.
>>314472
Senator Pavel, I'm SPQR.
>>313395
He gets mocked for being short because a french inch was bigger than an imperial inch.
>>313518
Homolust in ancient Greece is vastly overstated.
Pedestry was far more common. Homosexual relations between two grown men was actually considered taboo because it was 'unmanly' of the dude catching.
They were playing the feminine role of sex and that's not manly enough.
Ancient Greeks would have an aneurysm if they saw pegging.
>>314485
If I crucify you, will you die?
>>313571
Zyzz died and the spirit of /fit/ along with him
>>313596
I tried to explain this to my family and they think I'm gay
there is a difference between aesthetics and sexual attraction
a man's body is meant to fight, hunt, run, lift, etc. whereas a woman's is built to pump out children and retain fat
>>314547
Now we're just /r9k/ rejects who thinking squatting will cure our social retardation.
>>314546
It would be extremely painful.
A lot of you guys don't work out, eh?
Whatever workout you do really doesn't mean shit if you don't have the diet to support it.
Pre-industrial societies didn't have such an easy time supporting people with whatever food they'd like. The soldiers would be fit with 13-15% bodyfat, but far from huge like a modern gymnast.
Likely soldiers were better at cardio (like all armies were, are, and should be) than brute strength. Romans and Greeks could carry their equipment on a march and fight in it for short periods before tiring the fuck out. Historians argue ancient pitched battles lasted for minutes at a time, and both sides may stop contact in order to reform and give their guys a break.
This is supposedly a living likeness of Alexander the Great. Stocky build, somewhat short stature.
>>314561
>I tried to explain this to my family and they think I'm gay
Kek. You never say this shit out loud unless you're talking to your friends.
>>315190
>alexander the great was a manlet
>>315260
What have you conquered besides your anime love pillow?
>>315296
I wonder how much different the world would have developed had he gone west instead of east.
>>315348
I dont think he ever would have because the Achaemenid Empire would hop on that balkan ass the moment they marched west or where-ever that wasn't toward them.
>>315348
There was no reason to go west. Eastern people didn't really give a shit about anything in Europe or the Western Med, except that Carthage was a neat place for trade.
>>314534
Remember that all our sources regarding this are from the cultural intelligentsia, at their snootiest. Imagine if EVERYTHING we knew about, say, modern society was scraps of opinions from a handful of aristocrats living the most sheltered lives, the most pretentious of the pretentious. The fact they wrote about how much they looked down upon adult homosexual relations (by this they strictly meant anal and oral intercourse) means it clearly happened.
Basically we'll never know how gay they actually were, if the gaynes was just an affectation or if it was systemic as accepted in the entire of society.
>>315348
Not that much, the lands to the west were already culturally greek as far as he would even want to conquer. The real bounty was the Persian Empire though.
>>313258
Im Alexander re-incarnate, you figure it out.
>>316214
>>316223
>>316266
I'm well aware of why he went East instead of West. Wasn't think of motivation so much as just actual historical impact on a whim.
A Persia that doesn't receive any hellenic influence.
Ancient Egypt without Alexandria.
Celtic and Germanic tribes get a taste of hellenism.
Carthage potentially involved with or influenced by Alexander
Alexander vs the Etruscans and what the pike means for Italian warfare after that
What would the successor kingdoms be like had Alexander gained control of Western Europe, etc.
>>313534
He's fine, it's just the middle part that's invisible.
>>313731
Spartans never sent their Spartiates further than the gates of Thermopylae.
The Spartiates were invaluable and Sparta never risked them. They were never more than a month away from home. Sparta went crazy when a mere 120 of their Spartiates were captured by Athens.
That's why Brasidas were sent to Amphipolis in northern Greece with an army of Helots (serfs) and mercenaries. The resulting peace between Athens and Sparta got Sparta their Spartiates back.
>>313385
Romans were civilised, but this generally means the people are "poor", a concept which doesnt entirely exist in the Germanic tribal society. Poor people tend to be shorter and malnourished, they also probably did less physically demanding but more time consuming jobs. The Germans were well fed and did physical work. The weak probably just died or were cast out.
In some ways the more civilised you get the more shit your people become until you reach the point where you can tackle that issue once others are solved.
Apparently Native Americans were also a lot taller than Europeans for similar reasons.
>>313434
Then they are not Spartans, they are helots or perioikoi.
Sparta is not a good example, they were extremely niche and unique in the Ancient world.
>>315180
>Historians argue ancient pitched battles lasted for minutes at a time, and both sides may stop contact in order to reform and give their guys a break.
That's a load of shit and you know it. Battles lasted hours or the entire day. Combat went on for hours. You're referencing the concept that there may have been short breaks in fighting within actual melee combat but that wasn't some formal agreement or order, but just the natural sway of battle.
>>317561
It's been found that pre agricultural peoples were similar height to us at our peak now and had the endurance and strength of top athletes
>>315296
I thought Dacians and Getae were the same people, just named differently by different people.
>>317561
Germanics (and Celts to some degree) lived longer north so they couldn't do intensive agriculture like the Romans, but had to focus more on livestock, hunting and fishing which meant a lot more of protein and calcium in their diet, but also much smaller and scattered populations.
In Roman times, Germanics were known for making the best soap, the Celts the second best. Why? Germanics had much more livestock to make soap from.
Weren't hoplite phalanx battles between the city states basically who could push the hardest and make the other sides first line crumble and fall to create a domino-effect?
So I'd assume you kinda needed good physique for that kinda shit.
>>313767
>that gif
>>317700
I've seen worse IRL, man.
>>313337
The case of the spartans is quite special because they actively practised austerity.
>>313502
To be fair, being 5'11 still means being tall nowadays in the Mediterranean. Specially if you're not a young adult but in your 40s or older. With more than 1,80 meters of height, you're far from being a giant, but you're tall.
>>317592
Depends on the writer and source.
Indeed they surely belonged to the same civilization, whatever is the name you want to use.
>>313258
We have some skeletons of medieval archers, nobles and such from Sweden, England and Germany.
In the Swedish grave the average height was 6 feet and the English and German graves the average was 5 foot 7. That said the Swedish grave contained only twenty or thirty people so it's possible it was a small group of rich people.
Weight or built? I'd say it could differ, you had guys training in armor and doing pullups in them and you had guys who half assed any kind of training. Condition training was probably one of the more important things.
>>314573
IV V
Does anyone know of any books where they discuss fitness standards (eiher throughout history or a single period)
>>316289
Kys
>>317572
I may have worded it wrongly or you may have misunderstood it, but you described what I meant anyway.
You can't fight for hours and hours straight. It's not possible for the human body to cope with that gear, stress, and possible wounds for 3 hours of straight combat. You can't convince ANYONE but the most clueless person.
I stand by my statement -- which I read when I researched battle formations of the ancient world -- that armies throughout history, would have to break contact in order to reform the line and give front line soldiers a chance to rest.
It makes sense. combat against large armies very (or never) rarely went one VS one. Hell, in a phalanx HOW many people in one file are stabbing you with their spear or pike?
I choose ZAMA as my example.
Or do you think the Romans were busy wrestling with the elephants for half a fucking day, then moved on to the infantry in the morning?
>>319466
Its cause Sparta never had a big fighting force to begin with.
They went for quality over quantity and whenever they had casualities in a battle they won/lost they had little to no time to rebuild those forces.
I mean, not counting helots or other lacodaemonians they had like at max 5000 spartiate soldiers.
I'm gonna go /fit/ for a second.
Shorter people are undoubtedly more efficient when it comes to making use of calories. Food was likely more scarce back then, meaning A) they likely didn't look like bodybuilders, they more likely looked like what we would call "natural potential" which in layman's terms is a guy who's trained for 2-4 years without steroid use. And B) they certainly weren't as tall. The human body only recently began growing over 6' for reasons likely related to food being more readily available. But let's say you had a 6'2" guy and a 5'8" guy and food becomes scarce, the big guy is going to die first, especially if he has an unnatural amount of muscle, because those eat up a lot of calories that could be used to move around and power the body's organs.
They say "an army runs on its stomach." Could an army of roidgorillas be fielded? Sure, with enough food. Would it be worth the cost? Probably not by very much. I'd rather invest that effort into good archers and horses. In modern times even, the smaller target who can survive on less food is more likely to survive. That doesn't necessarily mean you want an army of midgets, the general consensus is average height is best.
>>317918
Part of the problem with height estimates is that populations intermingled less, even village to village, so there was much more variation in height in ancient times.
>>319515
Now I want to see an army of roid Spartans
Aristocrats and Hoplites were generally well trained, the former because they had the time, the latter because they had to work the fields.
Pretty much every able man in ancient Greece trained and fought at some point.
In Rome, the picture changes, they had a professional army, but they didn't actually fight as much as you would think.
Nourishment is hard to access, they certainly had access to Proteine through milk, survived mostly off carbs though, wheat > all in the ancient world.
>>319515
I thought that marching on its belly thing was relating to how fast armies moved around
>>319466
You are retarded. They çucked the Athenians and were the only Greeks who didn't submit to Alexander. Alpha as fuck
>>319466
>lost majority of their battles
You what? They never lost a land battle against other Greeks until their defeat by Boeotians in the 300s.
Everybody believed they were invincible until that defeat.
They lost one land battle at Thermopylae with 300 spartiates against several thousands of persians,
but no Greek power defeated them until the Boeotians did.
>>319494
Yeah i agree, melee combat is constant and physical even if you're not at the very front, modern combat involves a lot of "resting" phases where even if you're shooting you may be laying down or sitting using cover. But you explained it initially in a way which sounded like you were saying both sides made a formal agreement after 5 minutes to end the battle and have a break or it just ended after 5 minutes. But i don't think you're right that it would only occur for a few minutes before people got exhausted, probably 20 minutes or so before sides sort of naturally fall apart. This is probably the point where the side with more strength surges forward and overruns the other too.
>>319580
lmao
Once Alexander came around Sparta was an irrelevant inbred shithole, by their own fault no less. Their time was over 100 years before that.
For a brief time, they were a strong military force, but that's about it.
Athens had a far greater influence on Ancient Greece and the world in general than Sparta could ever have hoped for, not that they wanted it, but still. In fact, it was the Spartans that ended up allying with the Persians.
>>319578
What the fuck, no. What is even the relation between both things?
>>319564
>Nourishment is hard to access, they certainly had access to Proteine through milk, survived mostly off carbs though, wheat > all in the ancient world.
gram for gram wheat contains more protein than milk.
>>319615
Army moves as slow as a guy crawling on his belly
>>315180
>>319494
Plausible with organized armies, although I doubt it. How would you reform if a enemy decided to break this "scared time-out" oath and continue to pursue in your retreat?
Troops might have broken off combat and the other side chose not to pursue due to their own exhaustion, but it would be due to the natural course of battle, not some agreement between two armies. If you have your enemy routed you go for a kill.
>You can't fight for hours and hours straight.
Which is why armies practiced line rotation. No?
>>319613
By all accounts, the agoge produced the best warriors of ancient Greece. If Sparta ever lost battles, it was because they only ever had a small amount of core spartan fighters with the rest being helots or less skilled allies.
>>319633
>>319640
:(
>>319580
Only ones getting keked back then were the Spartans after every major war when the slaves revolted and raped the Spartans wives.
>>319638
I agree, and that's one of the reasons they became a minor political force so quickly after the Persian wars. Their eugenic policies and their militaristic focus limited them.
>>319646
>raped the Spartans wives.
They always kicked the shit out of the helots until they were freed by the thebans
>>319656
Not the guy you replied to, but it was an inefficient system either way. Any hoplite-based system was far superior and more flexible.
>>319678
They could have done the same system but included the Perioikoi
>>319650
>they became a minor political force so quickly after the Persian wars
But they took control of most of the entire greek mainland after the Peloponnesian war.
General Lysander pretty much became the King of Greece for a very short period of time after he crushed the Athenian navy and made them and other city states submit to Spartan rule.
All thanks to him becoming best butt buddies with a Persian prince.
>>319687
How so? Their entire idea was to free the "real" Spartans enough time to train them to become, well, "real" Spartans. In fact, there are theories that this rigid training and drill structure only developed because they had to keep the helots in check.
Whereas in a hoplite system, you just farm until there's a war (which is training aswell, if you ask me), you fight sometime that's not whenever you harvest your crops and then you go back.
What did Spartans do in peace-time? Nothing.
>>319650
>after the Persian wars.
Wrong. They were a major political force in Greece until Philip of Macedon took control of it. Even after that until the romans invaded, they were a significant regional power
>>319646
Nah, that never happened, actually, your hentai's not actually real.
IIRC Spartan women were expected to also be able to kick the shit out of the Helots. The entirety of Spartan society revolved around fear of their slaves, and more specifically around keeping them from getting out of line and ensuring they could fuck them up if they did. And that would certainly qualify as "getting out of line".
>>319698
The Persian Wars ended in 404 and by 370/371 their time was basically over. That's 30 years of political hegemony. Athens did better if you ask me.
>>319638
The Macedonians also changed the rule of traditional hoplite war by introducing the Sarissa which gave them an edge against the other city-states.
fugging technology
>>319714
I mean they could have just turned the Perioikoi, the middle class of their society, into Spartans. Instant bigger Spartan population. They would take a hit to their pride but it wouldnt damage their military if you put the kids through the system.
>>319740
True, they could have, but that's a long shot. They made a great effort to have their kids be pure Spartans.
>>319715
They weren't any greater or smaller a force than any other, regular poleis.
>>319757
Nope. They had the strongest army in the Peloponnesian war and led the Peloponnesian league. Even after that they still maintained a strong army
>>319065
Fucking love this
>the Peloponnesian and Corinthian war
>it was basically Persia playing both sides against each other while gaining the most from it
>just like the US is doing today
pottery
>>319766
Sparta wasn't even the biggest power on the Peleponnes after 370, they had to contend with Argos and Corinth.
Also, the Peleponnesian League didn't always do what Sparta wanted, even less so after they lost their meme status as invincible soldiers.
>>319543
After all those migrations and intermarriage between villages?
I kind of doubt it.
>>319608
Well the duration of the fight is up in the air. I took "a few minutes" because I practice sports and took modern martial arts competitions as my example. In full combat, your body will only last so long before exhaustion. But believe me, you are a super human if you manage 20 minutes, blocking, striking, pushing, shoving and screaming.
>>319636
>How would you reform if a enemy decided to break this "scared time-out" oath and continue to pursue in your retreat?
But you must think about this carefully, are your enemies not human too? Do they not need rest too? The Romans developed an amazing system of reserves to continue the battle after the first line has exhausted themselves.
The only example I can think of non-stop combat were the horse archers at Carrhae.
>Which is why armies practiced line rotation. No?
Yes. Or risk your troops being slaughtered when they cannot defend themselves.
If all I'm saying seems farfetched ... practice it yourself with a friend. Non-stop hitting, non-stop shoving and wrestling. For an hour. See if you can reach 30 minutes...
>>319862
>army rotation
Hollywood managed to do something right for once:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7MYlRzLqD0
>>319907
Are you sure that isn't a BBC production?
>>319923
Rome is HBO unless I'm mistaken, nevertheless it's a very good battle scene
They were bigger and smarter, as they didn't eat contamined food or water with estrogen.
>>319907
>>319935
That shit the big guy does (Titus IIRC) is also mentioned here in Froissart.
>"There was done many a deed of arms, so it was hard for any of them to open other's battle. Divers of them held their spears in both their hands, foining and pressing each at other, and some fought with short swords and daggers. Thus at the beginning the Frenchmen and they of Aragon fought valiantly, so that the good knights of England endured much pain. That day sir John Chandos was a good knight and did under his banner many a noble feat of arms. He adventured himself so far, that he was closed in among his enemies and so sore overpressed that he was felled down to the earth ; and on him there fell a great and big man of Castile called Martin Ferrant, who was greatly renowned of hardiness among the Spaniards, and he did his intent to have slain sir John Chandos, who lay under him in great danger. Then sir
John Chandos remembered of a knife that he had in his bosom and drew it out and strake this Martin so in the back and in the sides that he wounded him to death,
as he lay on him. Then sir John Chandos turned him over and rose quickly on his feet, and his men were there about him, who had with much pain broken the press
to come to him, whereas they saw him felled."
Not some kind of wanker who asked for breaks.
>>319907
https://youtu.be/IY-Hcr4bB3U?t=3m5s
This was also well done
>>319952
Bad post, but something along the same lines may be true. They led simpler, happier lifes, with less work and less competition. They were able to focus on different pursuits like sports or physical training in general.
>>319065
Out-fucking-standing marine
>>319956
Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus are the only two soldiers that Caesar mentioned by name in his writing, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure if Titus was just a 'mere grunt' like he's portrayed in the show but Lucius was supposedly a very stoic and competent centurion.
>>319965
>18th century Berber cavalry
>Stirrups
>Bridles and reins
>Charging with lances
1/10 for the effort of riding horses and not bicycles.
>>319989
Couldn't you have waited a few seconds after I posted senpai? Start Time doesn't work on 4chan, I didn't know
>>319989
>>320000
What?
>>320020
I wanted the video to start at 3:05 and embedded it that way but it didn't work. I just wanted to show the type of combat the infantry went through, not the cavalry.
>>317574
I'd like a lot of sauce on this if possible.
>>320053
Ah okay.
Well the cavalry was shit, Romans also look weird.
>>317574
>hunter-gatherers were at the same height and physical condition as the 0.01% most gifted people on the planet
This whole thread is an echo of Sumerian love/hate of civilized life.
>>320090
They always look so skinny and starved to me.
>>313585
>There's no possible way people from older periods of time can ever reach the levels of fitness our athletes today have
go ahead and prove that
>>315180
>Historians
>>320150
>skinny and starved
>those monstrous quads
>>319603
>300 vs thousands
Another Herodotian embellishment, there were 8-10,000 Greeks in that battle and they were rolled over and defeated in a matter of hours yet its made out to be this epic victory.
>>321309
>there were 8-10,000 Greeks in that battle and they were rolled over and defeated in a matter of hours
The battle went 3 days, until the last day when the Persians surrounded the Spartan + Allies via a goat pass. Do you have any credible historians who say otherwise?
>>321309
>Herodotian embellishment
Herodotus says there were 5200 Greeks, of which 300 Spartans protected Leonidas.
Seriously though I have a real hate for the modern tendency to understate the accomplishments of the ancients.
>>321325
>Do you have any credible historians who say otherwise?
lel, he is gonna have a hard time with that since persians never kept any historical documentation cause they believed in "muh oral" historiography
and even if there was a slight chance that anything got documented it was probably lost when persepolis burnt down or the arabs conquered them and burnt down all their libraries cause they "went against" their holy book
>>321325
>>321345
Now it's 3 days when I read less than 2 and 5,200 when I read 8-10,000... This is why a lot of "history" is bs, and you really can't take anything Horodutus has said seriously. Ironically he's called the father of history when he's proven again and again to be one of the greatest embellishers of all time.
>>321409
Where'd you read that? It's almost universally accepted that the battle was 3 days long, and that there were 5-10,000 Greeks there until the last day, when 300 spartans and 700 thespians remained.
>>321409
Wasn't it the Romans and the Greeks who gave Herodotus shit for talking good things about the Persians? That's why he is considered "The Father of Lies"
>>321433
I READ IT IN ONE OF MY BOOKS OKAY
There was also a hunchback who was butthurt at Leonidas so he betrayed them and xerces was a nigger
>>321441
>Herodotus
>talking good things about the Persians
Nigga hated them and was known amongst the greeks for his anti-persian resentment eventhough he was from the same place as Artemisia.
Only guy he actually gave good PR to was Cyrus the Great, but then again no historian back then seemed to have shit to say about him.
>>321473
Something I got from an article
>On the other hand ancient authors such as Herodotus, whom I believe to be an exceptional man who has been misunderstood in the East, especially in Iran, provides us with some very interesting anecdotes about Persian intellectual and philosophical outlook. For example the earliest Western political theory is expressed in a debate at the Persian court on the best forms of governance (Herodotus Book III.80-2). Three Persians discuss their favorite forms: democracy, oligarchy and monarchy, citing their virtues and vices. Otanes proposes democracy as the best form of governance for Persia, while Megabyzus suggests oligarchy and criticizes democracy, while Darius chooses monarchy and criticizes oligarchy. But the monarchy that Darius proposes is a constitutionalmonarchy! This and other positive characteristic attributed to the Persians by Herodotus was the cause of his later fall from grace among the Roman intellectuals who saw nothing positive about the Orient. Consequently Herodotus was called philobarbaros (Barbarian-lover) and was demoted from “Father of History” to “Father of Lies” by the Romans, and the modern Iranians blindly mimic this formula without ever really understanding Herodotus.
http://tourajdaryaee.com/commentary/decolonizing-persian-history-review-of-british-museums-forgotten-empire-the-world-of-ancient-persia/
>>321519
>Herodotus evolved into Xenophon
welp, guess his resentment only streched to the persian wars
>>321470
>There was also a hunchback who was butthurt at Leonidas so he betrayed them and xerces was a nigger
Was this your source?
>>321268
Advanced knowledge of nutrition, supplements, steroids, and basically having carbs/proteins/kcalories right on a fucking box. Obvious shit.
Now fuck off with your >proofs. If you need that, you shouldn't even be in this discussion.
>>313307
Gymnasts lift and fill their asses with PEDs
>>321626
>t-there's no way he could be natty, r-right guys?
>>321654
M8 if your body/performance is your income, you're on drugs, its as simple as that
>>315180
>Romans and Greeks could carry their equipment on a march and fight in it for short periods before tiring the fuck out
They must have had great calves
>>313307
Why are people so fucking tall today tho? It's anecdotal but it seems like the majority of male high schoolers today after 5'10 at minimum. And the majority of kids are taller than their parents by the time they're thirteen. I think it's the milk.
>>313709
greeks are notorious for adding anatomically incorrect muscles to statues to make them appear bigger as well as exaggerating the already existing muscles.
>Hoplites had to carry like 50 kg of gear when on a march
>during the Battle of Marathon the Spartans ran from their city to aid the Athenians
>they covered 220 kilometers (140 miles) in 3 days with all their gear and were still ready for battle
jesus fucking christ
is this more of herodotus bullshit or were they somekinda supermen?
>>314561
African wimmen have buff arms. They can bend over all day picking berries. They can carry water and babes for miles.
