what do you think about Göbekli Tepe?
it's rather extraordnary
>over 9 000 BC
>megalithic structure predating Stonhenge by thousands of years
>buried around 7 - 8 000 BC for unknown reasons
>predates agriculture
>built by hunter-gatherers
thoughts? I find it fascinating, but I wonder who built it. there were no Semites in the area at that time. was it the proto-Sumerians?
link for everyone
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
>>308520
There's no reason hunter-gatherers would be incapable of building monumental structures its that they have less reason to aggregate in one area than agriculturalists although sites such as starr carr saw seasonal occupation and hence more developed structures.
>>308520
Could one group have started it as a shrine, another group finds it and adopts it as such, and instead of fighting over it they both agree to use it in cooperation, and the whole thing snowballs from there?
but how did they organize it?
tribal communism and voluntary work?
I somehow doubt it
a priestly ruling class?
noe tribe using slaves?
>>308731
/pol/, just go.
>>308832
/pol/ is too uneducated to understand the workings of the revolutionary intelligentsia. Don't compare me with them.
>>308731
>Religion predates civilization at the crade of civilization itself, therefore it can be argued that religion is the reason why civilization began.
what? how does this follow?
they wre just playing Minecraft IRL cause they were bored as fuck prob desu baka senpai
>>308865
I think the assumption there is that religious reasons (proximity to a temple, maintenance of religious site) was a major contributing factor in the development of urbanized settlements.
>>308731
Just because religion predates civilizaton, doesn't mean civilization was created because of religion.
Also keep in mind religion back then was survival information, there's a reason you didn't eat pork, it's likely to have diseases.
The marriage between religion and rationality has been divorced, we can now meet in reason and build societies much stronger, without the foundations of superstition.
>>308906
>we can now meet in reason and build societies much stronger, without the foundations of superstition
We've all seen what happened the last time we attempted that.
>>308940
Yes, we revolutionized agriculture and eliminated slavery.
>>308981
>revolutionized agriculture
Norman Borlaug was a Christian.
>revolutionized agriculture
Most abolitionists were Christians, some even priests and ministers.
Meanwhile, in the Soviet Union or Maoist China, where people actually tried to "build society in reason and without superstition" millions died in famine and labour camps.
>>308993
>A Christian guy used the scientific process to create something
>It was religion!!!!11!
Dont forget the state is also a superstition. Don't get spooked.
>>309048
>the state is also a superstition
come on now
>>308981
>We eliminated slavery
Wow, that ignorance.
>>309048
The most damaging superstition of the last two centuries has been the notion of building of a "society based in reason". That was my whole point.
The scientific method is nice, but when people tried to apply it to human society, it has been a disaster after disaster. It's time we stop.
>>309091
Slavery is more than just a man who is owned. Slavery is the foundation of civilisation. Workers who are forced to work. They will always exist.
>>309105
>The most damaging superstition of the last two centuries has been the notion of building of a "society based in reason".
Wrong, the most damaging superstition was putting morality in the hands of religion, or government, and away from the individual.
"If God,Government says it's right, then we should do it"
>>309111
Slavery used to play a pivotal part in the foundations of civilizations, but through rationality and reason we have abolished it from the west, which has put the evolutionary pressure on us to create new intuitive ways of replacing the lost labor, for example we created large combine machines that guzzle oil and harvest fields.
>>309129
>through rationality and reason we have abolished it from the west
jesus fuck, fedora tipping quadruples in frequency.
>>309193
>Non-argument.
>>309129
Rationality had very little to do with abolition.
>>309210
I'm just sayin, slavery is still here it's just taken on another form. The basic underlying function of that class of people persists.
>>309223
>Rationality has very little to do with abolition
>Cooking has very little to do with making food
>Showering has very little to do with being clean
>Virtue has very little to do with living a fulfilling life
>Reading has very little to do with knowledge.
That's what you sound like.
>>308520
Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock blew this the fuck away.
Basically
>extinction level event around 11,000 years ago
>killed majority of human life
>human physiology has been the same for at least 100,000 years; we weren't hunter gatherers when this was built
>we were civilised and advanced (not like us today, think Greeks and astrologers and mathematicians)
>Gobekli, the pyramids, the sphinx and other monuments are relics from the previous civilisation
>the event wiped out Atlantis, concurs with Plato's accounts of it
The evidence is heavy. What I'd give to see what we were like on the other side of the extinction event.
>>309236
he's right though as far as I'm aware abolition was headed by religious people who felt (note the word felt) that god had intended people to be equal and slavery was therefore abhorrent. I'm talking bout english abolition though.
>>309236
You do realize that the biggest movers behind Anti-Slavery were Christian Fundamentalists, right?
>>308882
>>308731
I don't think you could call that what they had in gokbeli tepel a 'religion'
>>309234
You sound like a socialist.
Ill throw you a bone, the notion of slavery was that you forced someone with violence to do what you wanted them to do.
Try to trade in only gold and not dollars? You go to jail(Violence.
Try to open a business without the governments consent? You violently go to jail.
By putting morality in the hands of the government, you give it free reign to do as the see fit(Thats the class you're talking about).
What happens is that wealthy people, that can't use violence against you, are using the government, which has moral control of what is right and wrong, to tax you.
Figure out the rest yourself i am going to sleep
>>309048
> the state is a superstition
Yes, the most important form of political organization in 200,000 years is a "superstition"
> this is what lolbertarians actually believe
>>309304
I think he means it is a construct, the implication being that it is subservient to the concept of the individual. I mean he's not wrong but its a poor choice of words to call it superstition.
>>308906
>Also keep in mind religion back then was survival information, there's a reason you didn't eat pork, it's likely to have diseases
As a science of religion major, I can tell you that's completely false.
You'd be surprised on how many accounts "because" is the legitimate reason. It used to just be purity rituals for priests. It became common as to separate the Jews from their Roman overlords. It was their way of maintaining group cohesion.
>>308731
>I have no idea what I'm talking about the post
Religion fucking pre-dates homo sapiens I don't remember homo Neanderthals or homo hebergensis, also huge difference between what Marx called pre-historical communism and the dictatorship of the proletariat.
Jesus, this kind of idiocy is what made a friend of man claim that commies are against scientific progress because "they want us to revert to the stone age".
>>309243
>extinction level event around 11,000 years ago
No, Toba catastrophe occurred ~60,000 years ago.
>we were civilised and advanced (not like us today, think Greeks and astrologers and mathematicians)
Once again, no.
>Gobekli, the pyramids, the sphinx and other monuments are relics from the previous civilisation
There's a bit of a time gap between Gobekli Tepe and the pyramids. The first pyramids were build around 2600BC, many thousands of years after Gobekli Tepe had been buried and forgotten. And it's pretty fucking conclusive that the Egyptians built those.
>the event wiped out Atlantis, concurs with Plato's accounts of it
Atlantis was an allegory made up by Plato and possibly based on attempted invasions by the Sicilians.
>>308993
>millions died in famine
Literally nothing doing in both regions 3bh
>not mentioning that both those governments are the only ones that didn't experience mass starvation after their founding
>>309263
>work or starve
>Be paid less than your works value so that the factory owner can make a profit
>you're selling your labour under the threat of violence
Figure out the rest for yourself, I have courses.
What you're talking about is the Hobbesian monopoly of violence that maintains a state - a necessity for the function of capitalism.
Would you say rape is slavery? Would you say laws against murder is slavery? In both cases you'll likely incur quite a lot of violence from your surroundings by attempting them.
>>308993
>labor camps aren't an improvement from previous forms of imprisonment/execution
>transforming a toxic traditional culture and trying to establish a new culture based on accountability, reasoning, and social good is wrong
>>309375
>>309375
Toba and the event 11,000 years ago aren't mutually exclusive.
Gobekli wasn't buried that early. It was buried thousands of years later by a different society to the one that made it. Possibly by remnants of that society.
It's not allegorical because it matches factually with other accounts of a city sinking around 11,500 years ago, which matches archeological findings. What a shit allegory you propose, Plato wouldn't do that.
>>309375
Kek. Egyptians themselves said they didn't make them, they just fucked about with them like we still do.
Pyramids are much older than 4000 years old. They were built over 11,000 years ago.
Humanity got to a point were Pyramids, Gobekli Tepe, Astrology were mastered. Then they were wiped out and we've started again.
Paleolithic people did not have Empire names, and traditionally scientists do not name them by anything other than per their region or the local location. Sometimes they name them by the items associated with them [ie; Kurgens].
GT was created by Paleolithic people.
They erected stone totems, associated with animals.
This coincides with animal worship, celestial calendars, tribal magic and elementalism.
Pretty basic stuff.
The shocking part about GT is that the totems are made of stone and that they made carvings.
It's the first find of it's kind.
Most complex stone carvings appear in the late Neolithic Era.
I think it's cool.
Paleolithic people trying to use stone instead of timber. For the region it makes sense. More stone than wood. The stone is also easily carvable.
The real mystery is why aren't there any other artifacts and why was it buried.
I'm hoping it was other hominids that built it instead of our ancestors.
That would make it trippy as fuck.
>>309431
>Toba and the event 11,000 years ago aren't mutually exclusive.
That's because there was no event 11,000 years ago. There is literally no archaeological or genetic evidence to support this.
>Gobekli wasn't buried that early
It was still buried thousands of years before the pyramids were built.
>It's not allegorical because it matches factually with other accounts of a city sinking around 11,500 years ago
Fucking how? There were no cities that long ago and no written language to record such things.
>which matches archeological findings
What findings?
>Plato wouldn't do that
He would and he did.
>>309457
Can I have a source for this?
>>309471
>why was it buried
>where are the others
Pretty self-explanatory. The non buried sites weren't preserved.
>>309481
pic related
>>309491
Buried doesn't mean partially buried.
These were absolutely intentionally buried.
Normal wear and tear amounts to a whole area being equally sunk.
These are called "Pot Belly Hills" because they're Intentional Mounds.
That is the current scientific consensus anyway.
Also, science is never self-explanatory.
That is why schools exist.
I like to imagine they were creating synthetic sacred mountains.
>>309365
>I don't remember homo Neanderthals or homo hebergensis,
building cities.
Fuck.
>>309478
11,500 year old event
https://youtu.be/G0Cp7DrvNLQ?t=2842
https://youtu.be/aDejwCGdUV8?t=844
https://youtu.be/aDejwCGdUV8?t=2213
Atlantis, origins of civilization
https://youtu.be/aDejwCGdUV8?t=5921
General infodump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R31SXuFeX0A
Carlson knows his shit. It 100% matches up.
>>309365
Not him but I'm calling you out:
1. ) "science of religion major" doesn't exist
2.) You provide no citations
3.) You apply anachronistic concepts like game theory with with group cohesion
4.) Religion predates homosapiens? You do realize there is a sharp distinction between Supernatural Tribal Belief and Religion, which has Dogma, Priests, Temples, etc... right?
If you're a student, you're a stupid one.
>>309523
>Joe Rogan experience
>Academic source
I think we're done here.
>>309549
>not knowing who Randall Carlson or Graham Hancock is
>is in a ancient civilizations thread
the irony desu
>>309523
To /x/ with you.
>Atlantis
>Joe Rogan Youtube posts
Bullshit storm of forced-pattern matching.
>UGH
>>309549
>dismissing information before even watching
>demanding 'academic source' for history
Carlson posts facts and where to find his data, plus how he got them. You're not winning anything with that play, you're just being ignorant.
We are definitely done here.
Well, I for one think it's pretty clear evidence for Time Travel.
Seems like the sort of thing I'd do if I were stuck several millenia in the past.
>>309553
>forced pattern matching
How so? The dates + data seem to match up perfectly. Are you suggesting its all made up?
Perhaps you should extend your knowledge ceiling before rubbishing someone else. It would make you look less dumb.
>>309557
>Posting hours upon hours of podcasts
>"Lol he says where the data is"
Why not just post the fucking data then?
>>309567
Because he's fabricating them.
That's why.
I guess Ancient Aliens is all correct too.
Since people make shit up, and all lies are now true because a person with a microphone says they are now.
>>309579
>he's fabricating them
holy shit please just stop posting, you're absolutely clueless lmao
>>309577
He's literally showing, explaining and telling you where to get it, watch it or leave the thread s m h
>>309596
Just let them go, it's typical leftists.
Leftism 101 actually.
>>309596
>>309589
No, the links start at the beginning of the 3 hour videos and nobody in their right mind would be bothered trawling through a goddamned podcast with a talentless comedian to find them.
And posting Youtube links as "proof" of subjects literally every respected academic scoff at is some high school tier bullshit.
>>>/x/
>>308520
Pretty interesting because it blows the fuck out of the idea that religious worship arose out of settled life, and shows that in fact, we invented agriculture so that we could settle down and focus more time on worshiping religious ideas.
>We literally invented domestication of animals and crops so that we could more easily and fully glorify our snake gods
>>309628
He gave you links to the exact time you fucking mongoloid, leave this board and never come back please.
I'm sorry for you, you don't actually know who either Hancock or Carlson is which says everything about you.
>>309634
>Open link
>Video starts at the beginning
It didn't fucking work.
>you don't actually know who either Hancock or Carlson is which says everything about you
That I'm not a fucking lunatic that believes in pseudoscience? Most people would consider that a good thing.
>>309628
Get more money to buy a better PC or laptop then m8, if you're too poor to have a device that cannot even open a video at the right point then you cannot get involved with the discussion.
It's a thread about Gobekli fucking Tepe, Youtube is as 'proof' as you're going to get. It's still fringe stuff but there are the guys at the forefront of figuring it out.
I would sincerely suggest you watch the videos.
>>309640
Not my problem you're a scrub when it comes to the internet.
Please don't ever visit threads such like this one every again in the future, on behalf of everyone else.
>>309640
>has absolutely zero information on the topic being discussed
>has the cheek to scoff at genuine data
I don't know what it is you're laughing at tbqh.
>>309649
>It's a thread about Gobekli fucking Tepe, Youtube is as 'proof' as you're going to get. It's still fringe stuff but there are the guys at the forefront of figuring it out.
They're not even archaeologists you retard. Klaus Schmidt was the leading researcher up until his recent death, and the current work is being done BY THE ACTUAL PEOPLE EXCAVATING IT, not "researchers" into altered states of consciousness and other brain-dead hippy bullshit.
>>309649
>>309651
From now on, keep /x/ in /x/. It's why that containment board was made in the first place. Or alternatively,
>>>/trash/
>>309672
Please never enter these threads again, cheers.
>>309695
For fuck's sake, in the fucking play Timaeus, Plato explicitly states that the story is a fictional allegory. Why the hell are you taking a three hour podcast on youtube by a nobody over the literal account off which you are basing your myth?
>>309797
The story of Atlantis and Athens in the Timaeus-Critias was to be allegorical.
Atlantis itself was not stated to be fiction.
>>309823
An Island, mentioned for the first time, 9000 years after it was supposed to have sunk into the ocean, appears in a fictional allegory about two types of states, the one type being punished by the gods for hubris and being sunk. No other mentions beforehand.
Yeah, seems legit dude must be real.
>>309849
Either he's trolling or he's honestly stupid. Just stop answering
Isn't the deal here is that archaeology has no idea how the fuck they could build this shit without there supposedly being no civilization, languages or organization so early? How is there centuries worth empirical research in the form gawking at stars of astronomy data encoded in these megastructures?
Randall and Hancock are just dismissed as researchers because they aren't from the right academia, and they also believe in what's thought of by many as 'fringe kooky shit' in psychedelics and altered states in regards to human thought processes. I don't know how people who've experiences with these substances can say that they don't drastically change the focus of your thoughts permanently.
>>310103
It's not as hard as you'd think to do cyclopian architecture.
If you have a couple dozen guys, and some harnesses for them to pull on, you can move absurdly large rocks.
>>310103
> I don't know how people who've experiences with these substances can say that they don't drastically change the focus of your thoughts permanently.
They do, but they're just drugs. You're not enlightened from it, retard. You just fucked your brain up. Just because they change your focus permanently doesn't make them great things that need to be used by everyone.
>>310103
There was language, we just don't know what it was.
And there wasn't civilization but there was obviously some cultural/societal unit at work. Tribalism blah blah.
These aren't architecturally complex structures. A bunch of stones upright. A bunch of people and some ingenuity will get that done in no time.
I suppose the astrological component is the most fascinating desu.
>>309396
>collectivization in Soviet Union
>widespread famine among other things
>estimated 4-12 million deaths
>Great Leap Forward in China
>widespread famine among other things
>estimated 18-45 million deaths
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you.
>>308520
>built by hunter-gatherers
so glad this chan hasn't turned into a history-channel-tier shit hole yet.
carry on..
>>308731
>>310238
..and it's shit
>>310238
Read the thread. Those faggots showed up.
And remember - if you don't believe a pseudoscientific theory on par with "ancient aliens" then you're part of the evil liberal conspiracy ruining academia.
I don't understand why people seem to have such a hard time believing that primitive cultures are capable of creating megalithic structures intertwined with astronomy. Civilization didn't just pop up out of nowhere, and especially in a region like the one surrounding GT, you had abundant enough resources to get some really advanced (relatively) cultures going.
>>310249
that didn't take long.. this is still 4chan, I knew I was aiming too high
>>309551
>Graham Hancock
sensationalist hack
>Randall Carlson
a self-described 'geomythologist'
Yes, we are done here
>>310103
>that archaeology has no idea how the fuck they could build this shit without there supposedly being no civilization
I love this meme
Just because there are numerous theories as to how it was actually done doesn't mean we have no idea how they did it
>>308520
>Göbekli Tepe (Turkish: [ɡobe̞kli te̞pɛ],[2] "Potbelly Hill"[3])
Pretty sure that means "dusty hill" or "hill of dust".
>>309531
Oh wow, what the fuck am I reading?
1) http://www.uu.se/utbildning/utbildningar/selma/program/?pKod=RRE1K&lasar=15/16
2) http://www.uu.se/en/admissions/master/selma/kursplan/?kpid=30619&lasar=15%2F16&typ=1
On Judaism I presume? This is the new syllabus though, and since I'm not currently in Sweden I don't have the book on me.
3) Are you seriously implying that people didn't identify themselves as part of a certain culture before game theory? And that they had no desire to define that culture under threat of extinction?
4) Moving the goalpost, religion doesn't need to be organized. But sure, I can use the word faith instead. Also, there exists to my knowledge no clear evidence of dedicated priests, dogma or signs of temples in Göbekli Tepe.
If you're going to act like a idiot, try to at least not be smug about it.
no aliens also means no theories of alien levels or worse
only scientific discussion plz, Atlantisfags
>>310269
Honestly the whole mystery is about complex structures arriving so early. That's because in Pottery Neolithic of the region, people were living in simple villages like Gürcütepe and most people thought thst these simple villages evolved from even simpler forms. Nobody expected that these villages were actually descended from extremely complex for their times societies like the ones at Nevalı Çori or Göbekli Tepe. It was a fucking shock. Also considering how vast the Karaça Dağ, the mountain on whose slopes the wheat was domestication, and that the temples like the above mentioned Göbekli Tepe, Nevalı Çori and many others, when placed on map seem to be roughly placed around Karaça Dağ, it seems plausible that agriculture began with giant areas used to grow the plants and not with simple horticulture as was expected. These sites overthrow pretty mch everything we thought about the beginning of Neolithic Revolution.
>>313621
The Natufians are the first ones to be confirmed farmers, and they were way the fuck over in Iran.
>>313652
There is still a lot to discover about Natufians (or whatever culture was living in the region) southeastern Turkey, where the most important things were happening, though. By new genetic and archaeological evidence, it seems like Natufians elsewhere were only secondary in their importance. Turkey is where the real shit was going on.
bumpoer
