Has an Arab army / fighting force ever made a good account of itself anywhere anytime in the modern era?
>>300739
The Jordan Legion made a good account of itself in the original 1948 war.
Have you read this fampai?
http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars
Arab rebels working with Lawrence?
Then again, depends on what you mean by modern.
>>300770
care to summarize
ISIS
>>300777
They don't have any fucking money.
>>300774
Were they very effective?
I don't know the history much at all, but I'd assume the Turks were on their way out of the Arab world simply because Turkey itself fell.
>>300739
wtf did that guy draw?
>>300782
What?
SAA is fighting pretty well for all these years since the war in Syria started.
>>300777
No command elements in the field.
No unit cohesion.
Poor equipment knowledge.
Commanders are bootlickers, and have no actual experience leading units.
Poor communication.
Etc.
>>300777
There are a few main points. Mostly Arab culture holds them back.
1) Being the most knowledgable person gives you power, so a tank commander, for instance, is hesitant to share how the entire tank works with his crew because then they might have power over him. So if one guy gets killed, the tank can't function without him because nobody knows how to do his job.
2) officers refuse to work in front of enlisted men and there is no good NCO class to bridge the cultural and social gap between them.
3) Very top-down hierarchy. An Arab colonel has as much power as a US 1st Sgt.
There are a few others
Iraqi insurgency
The first Saudi state ruled over most of Arabia for a couple of decades in late 18 - early 19th century, until Ottomans BTFO them.
>>300799
by top down hierarchy I mean a lot of shit has to be approved at defense minister levels
>>300787
You heard me. How do we afford a good education system, comprehensive education, comprehensive diets and arms, fully fledged battlefield intelligence. air support, armor support, and the chain of command? By using money.
These niggas pick up an ak47 and roll the dice, there's not much they can do.
>>300744
This. The 1948 Arab Legion was the most professional and well trained Arab army ever.
>>300812
Nothing in the middle east has as much money as the United States and it backs isreal for meme reasons.
>>300812
But they don't use their army for real, so maybe it is actually good.
>>300788
They're fighting other Arabs, so can't draw much from that.
>>300826
The ongoing war in Yemen proves otherwise.
>>300788
Shia have always fought better than Sunnis.
>>300801
I wonder what the kill ratio is in Iraq. I would assume it's astronomically lopsided in favour of Western armies.
>>300792
Arabs haven't lived in tribes for at least a century and most more.
In general though Arabs haven't had a military background since the middle ages.
>>300739
Hezbollah. They beat Israel in 2006 and are propping up Assad today.
>>300806
Arab armies, at least until the states started to fall completely apart, was flush with cash and equipment.
When going up against Israel, time and again the Arabs had multiples times as much equipment, multiple times as many soldiers, vastly more international economic muscle... and yet they got completely BTFO every time.
>>300838
Tribes, small geographic areas, whatever. Point is they don't have much loyalty to the state itself, just where they come from.
>>300833
Hezbollah did pretty well against Israel a few years back (does that war have a name?), but they also had a decade to prepare knowing exactly the ground they'd fight over. They had boobytraps EVERYWHERE, extensive tunnel systems, fire lines all mapped out, and still Israel could have crushed them if the political will was there.
>>300783
Pretty sure they won every battle they fought, though you could argue they were only successful due to British and French aid.
>>300846
> When going up against Israel, time and again the Arabs had multiples times as much equipment, multiple times as many soldiers, vastly more international economic muscle
This. Soviets dumped lots of relatively new equipment there in 60s and 70s, yet they still failed to used it properly.
>>300849
Probably but that's not why they suck, there's plenty of examples of non loyal forces fighting like hell.
If you're a European and you go to military school you're learning centuries of warfare, tactics, strategy, everything. It's a full school of knowledge nearly honed to perfection. Warfare is a science.
The Arabs just don't have that background, their military schools are shit. You can have the best force in the world but it will lose if the people leading it are uneducated in military matters and probably just got the rank for political purposes.
>>300779
>>300852
ISIS had lots of western support via "moderate" rebels and Turkey's rat line, and until the Russians intervened, the support of the Israeli and Turkish airforces.
Witness just how badly they're getting beaten now.
>>300788
>SAA is fighting pretty well
Is that why they let terrorists and jihadists take more than half the country? Because they are so competent?
>>300862
actually the Soviets didn't give them the good advanced stuff until Sadat expelled all the technical advisors and then the Egyptians never had the time to learn how to use it.
>>300956
Well we all know the best military leaders are all Europeans.
>>300862
Could be argued Soviet equipment was inferior. How much Western weaponry did Israel ever face? (I'd imagine some from Jordan).
>>300866
The Arabs would have sent their better (/more connected) officers to Western and Soviet military academies I'd think.
>>300927
>support of turkish air forces
I thought turkey was a second world country
Hezbollah against Israel in 2006 was bretty gud
>>300974
They're a NATO member
>>300967
Amusingly enough, in the 1956 war with Egypt, you saw Israeli Me-109s dogfighting with Egyptian Spitfires.
>>300995
They basically just mined the shit out of everything, and waited in dug-in positions launching rockets and waiting for an Israeli tank to drive right in front of them so they could launch a missile at it.
It worked, but it's not as if they could have advanced 20 feet into Israel.
>>300971
The problem was the leadership was ossified in many places with the old guard officers not willing to give up their positions (since it legitimized their authoritarian rule and power).
>>300779
Daesh are being routed by Hezbollah in every engagement. They have no training, no experience and no formal system of obtaining materiel. Even by terrorist standards, they're not exactly what you'd call impressive.
>>300927
>support of the Israeli and Turkish airforces
Well meme'd
>>300996
and nato was supporting isis?
>>300855
>Israel could have crushed them if the political will was there.
Ehud Olmert wanted to push all the way to the Litani river, but the army balked at the casualties they were taking, and would likely take in such a campaign.
>>301083
Yes lets listen to the guy who was basically a PR officer during his time in the military. What a great idea. That has never backfired before.
>>301054
Turkey wants ISIS to kill as many Kurds as possible as a way of stamping out Kurdish nationalism.
>>300833
Historically tho sunnis always rekt shia
>>301139
Seems like it's accomplished exactly the opposite. The West seems totally enamoured of the Kurds, and can't give them enough weaponry, military, and political support.
>>301139
Aren't the turkmen rebels pro-kurdish? besides being ethnic turks and repressed I'm pretty sure they are mostly kurd.
>>301159
America loves the Kurds because Iraqi Kurdistan is basically the only bright spot in the entire Iraq war.
Turkey hates the Kurds because they have been fighting Kurdish nationalist uprisings since the formation of the modern Turkish state.
>>301158
More like turks, sunni or shia, always rekted everyone else in the middle east.
>>301195
Maybe they should have stopped called Kurds, mountains Turks and acknowledged they weren't Turks instead of screaming they were and even tried to assimilate them until they weren't.
>>301017
You have to admit that it displays a level of discipline and organization that's far beyond any other Arab military/organization.
>>300739
isis is doing bretty gud to their people, bretty bad to their foe's people tho.
>>301158
>What is Persia/Iran
>>300832
The Saudis (or rather the Pakistani and Sudanese mercenaries they've hired) really are just as terrible as they say
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBwKYvINTds
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/40-173.aspx#startofcomments
>>301218
Any actual reports how Hezbollah is doing in Syria?
After the 2006 war everyone thought Hezbollah was some super army for surviving a beating from Israel for a few days, but how do they actually do in moving combat?
>>301365
I don't get why nobody in the West seems bothered by the Saudi intervention in Yemen. I can't say I've ever heard it mentioned in the media for that matter...
>>301394
>I don't get why nobody in the West seems bothered by the Saudi intervention in Yemen
You'll start to understand it when you start seeing the media not as holy bodies of journalistic integrity but as the bodies of soft-propaganda that they are.
There is always interests in the news that are transmitted and in the way they are transmitted.
The reason why you dont hear about the war in Yemen is the same reason why Saudi Arabia is in the fucking UN Human Rights Council, or why France, and the west in general still refuse to tackle the origin of the financing of all the wahabist groups.
>>301027
>They have no training, no experience
ISIS was founded by Saddam's military who were kicked out of the army after the american invasion in 2003. We're talking troops who were battle-hardened by 2 Gulf wars and the Iraq-Iran war.
>>301264
Yeah, but they also won plenty of wars.
>>301444
Not founded, but many former Saddam soldiers did join. It was Al-Qaeda at first. (or ISI, later ISIS, then ISIL) It's funny, because a lot of deserters from the new ''American equipped and trained'' forces said fuck it and opened their storehouses up to ISIL, giving them all the weapons they wanted.
>>301433
This desu. Look at how big news are currently working to turn public support against Turkey right now.
You can argue that they were overly aggressive, but they have been warning Russia about their airspace for like the last month.
>>301454
They joined al-qaeda but then separated because their political goals was to form a State, which goes against the political objectives of al-Qaeda.
>>301394
Because no one gives a shit about Yemen.
>>301433
>The reason why you dont hear about the war in Yemen
The real reason is no one cares. Who gave a shit about the North and South Yemeni Civil Wars in the 70s and 80s. To most people Yemen is the armpit of the Middle East about as relevant to them as Oman (or Dhofar).
>>301387
>>Any actual reports how Hezbollah is doing in Syria?
they hold up pretty well against Daesh but they aren't leading any impressive advances or anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7xkjfZIm6o
at least they can aim and use cover instead of using Allah-guided bullets.
>>301444
the high command is very experienced and nowhere as fanatic as people think, but the rank and file jihadist is a complete dumbfuck.
i recall a pic of some dead Daesh that was carrying Naruto manga.
>>301466
What are you talking about? Everyone I know thinks Turkey shot down the plane as provocation. There was no way it was in their airspace for four minutes.
>>301365
I wonder if the Saudi military has improved much in the past 10 years. With the oil price being where it is, you'd think they'd have to rationalize and get their shit in order.
>>301477
>the high command is very experienced and nowhere as fanatic as people think, but the rank and file jihadist is a complete dumbfuck
Agreed.
>i recall a pic of some dead Daesh that was carrying Naruto manga
Please tell me you have this pic somewhere, that would be amazing
>>301480
Certainly not four minutes, but it did pass through twice and Turkey said weeks ago the next time a Russian plane entered their airspace there was going to be action taken against it.
This is only such a shock because nobody ever actually follows through on this sort of thing, they just escort the offending plane out.
>>301480
>what were you thinking
muh conspiracy
>>301477
They look like real soldiers. It'd be pretty terrified if ISIS soldiers looked half this squared away.
>>301488
someone has to have it in the /meg/ thread on /k/, it's great for keeping up with the war as long as you don't tinder the ridiculous amount of shitposting fanatics and propagandists camping there.
>>300799
>This
All officers tend to get given: Jeep, tank, helicopter, plane depending on political connections rather than experience and ability.
You have lieutenants doing the jobs of corporals and sergeant's. Enlisted men are scum in officers eyes otherwise they'd be officers.
Their state will pay for top equipment but nobody knows how to maintain it or if they do they are unwilling to do so in front of the men.
The best examples I've seen are the "slaves" in the Indian navy. And my favourite; Omanis with an awesome landing craft, loading supplies by rowboat into it because they didn't understand it could drive up onto the beach. It turned out they'd even welded the ramp closed thinking it wasn't supposed to open.
>>301506
Thanks I'll try to look it
>>301264
11 wars
5 Ottoman victories
1 indecisive, 1 stalemate
3 Persian victories
I'd say overall Persia did real well considering they had a tiny population and poor resources/equipment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj0p2s-NmB8
This video is a gem. Hezbollah and anti-Assad (?) soldiers talking back and forth.
I wonder how much of this happens in any war.
>>301539
>My name is Abdullah
>My name is also Abdullah
>>301539
did they give up and join based assad?
>>301539
I wonder if that speech actually convinced the FSA guys to give up.
>if there's one thing we can all agree on, it's death to the Jews
>>301539
>>301539
>I wonder how much of this happens in any war.
Anytime the sides speak the same language. There was a recording from the Chechen war where the Russians are about to rush into Grozny iirc, and commanders of two units on the opposing sides talk over the radio. They know each other from the Soviet army, and one basically tells the other to come as a guest during peace, but now he would be forced to kill him if they met. Then they both realize that they have no power to make the decision to withdraw their troops, so they say goodbye and attack.
Touching stuff.
>>301539
wollollolo
ayoyoyoyo
wollollolo
>>301444
Yeah, and their footsoldiers are villagers who couldn't find Afghanistan on a map and who are dropped into battle after a 6-week training course.
>>301195
This meme again. Turkey doesn't hate "The Kurds", Turkey is against PKK and YPG, Turkey supports Iraqi Peshmerga.
Kurds aren't a monolithic entity, they have their own groups, ideologies and conflicts of interest.
>>301920
Didn't (doesn't?) Turkey ban the Kurdish language in schools and media?
>>301492
So did they:
http://www.ibtimes.com/turkish-f-16-jets-intercept-russian-air-force-plane-inside-turkeys-air-space-2126779
I think Turkish military (generally nationalistic) was upset about Russians bombing the Turkmens.
>>301925
I think it did but doesn't anymore. There is state sponsored Kurdish channels in Turkey.
I cannot believe people are making me defend Turkey on the internet, the country is shit and did unforgivable acts now and historically but some of the bullshit people say on the internet is just annoying.
>>300779
ISIS is not an Arab army. They're led by a mixture of Arabs, Chechens, and Afghans, and tons of the fighters are non-Arab.
>>301394
Because they're on "the right side", that is, America. The only thing you need to know is that there is an "Axis of Evil" and America and its allies are saving the world!
I don't mean this to be offensive but it's a naive question.
>>300838
Their culture is tribal, that's what matters.
>>300739
Operation Badr, 1973
>>301477
>i recall a pic of some dead Daesh that was carrying Naruto manga.
I saw a pic of a dead Hezbollah fighter in a pile of manga. Maybe that's what you're thinking of.
>>301659
He said Israel and America. Hezbollah aren't antisemites/racists.
>>300770
For a more complete analysis, pick up Kenneth Pollack's "Arabs at War", or the dissertation he based his book on:
http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/11219
I'd actually disagree with De Atkine's conclusion that the Arab system is close to the Soviet system, but that's another story
>>300739
because of constant threat of coups and revolutions, Arab leaders basically primarily use military strength as a means to police the country. As a result, Arab armies are shit
Only when they are using guerrilla tactics, they are lethal at it for every reason that disadvantages them in modern conventional warfare
>>301467
Yep. Hilariously enough people still post shit like ''EVEN AL-QAEDA DISAGREES WITH THIS ISIL ATTACK!!'' not realizing they're enemies.
