Tell me about the Trojan War /his/.
[nospoilersonhis]And why was Achilles objectively right all along, and Hector a bit of a bastard, not to mention a coward (3 times around the walls)[/nospoilersonhis]
don't think it really happened tbqh
Hector wasnt, a coward. He was a human that actually feared death and finally faced his fear and accepted his fate against achilles.
Meanwhile achilles was a demigod that couldnt get over the fact that Agamemnon stole his waifu and later that his gay lover died.
Hector was way more relate-able and heroic, achilles was just a cursed superhuman with anger issues
>>264511
>And why was Achilles objectively right all along
Then why does he let Agammemnon win the javelin toss, and de facto submits to his authority by the end.
Achilles loses the actual main conflict of the Iliad bro. The war is just a backdrop.
>>264511
>Remnant of one of the most famous Greek historical events
>Turkish flag in the backround
>>264758
Apex kek is this bait
It's to ancient Greece as the Crusades are to us.
When the gods are getting disgusted with your morals, you can't be objectively right.
>>264539
Nope, not really, and scholars disagree with your interpretation. Most of them say that Hector might seem noble to modern readers but he never was seen as noble during ancient times. He was afflicted with hubris and pushed too far and also later a coward for running from Achilles. He never accepted his death and made bad decisions that eventually led to the entire destruction of Troy.
Achilles in the end ultimately won the war for the Acheans due to the love of his lost friend and ultimately accepted his fate - dying. What the fuck do you think he moped in the tent about. He came there to die and revel in glory, then asshat Agamemnon denies him his glory (Kleos). Of course the second alternative, returning home and have a good life with his buddy Patrocleos seems pretty fine.
>>264758
I'm a retard the post.
>>264892
literally not in any way
the story itself isn't too reliable as accurate history.
>>264892
No it isn't.
>>264511
>>264892
You don't think it actually happened do you?
It's a great story but it's not historical in any way shape or form.
>>264511
>he is an achillesfag.
hector did no wrong
>>265102
Was Homer really only, at most, 1 or 2 generations removed from the Trojan War?
>>265102
>>265059
>>265035
>>265028
archaeologist here, studied Trojan archaeology for 2 years.
There WAS a Mycenaean attack on troy. We have Mycenaean weaponry, burned buildings etc around the Trojan level that correlates to late bronze age. To link them with trojan myth is a bit harder. since you have bronze age collapse and greek dark ages between those periods.
but Mycenaean definitely attacked troy.
>>264917
>Most of them say that Hector might seem noble to modern readers but he never was seen as noble during ancient times.
Who gives a shit what they thought of him in ancient times? We evaluate him by modern standards, and by modern standards he was a family man fighting a losing war against an army that vastly outnumbered his and against an invincible demigod who was so consumed with killing that his lack of self-reflection on the matter could be considered God-like in its self-centered focus.
>>mandatory
Pardon the tiny, Kate Beaton made the comic save as a picture of a pony
>>265120
no
>>265131
so where was troy located
>>265120
No, neither does he ever claim to be, nor does anyone of the ancient world claim him to have been. Herodotus figured a distance of about four hundred years between Trojan War and Homer, and his dating of the Trojan War (insofar as it was a real event) is probably not too far off. We know for a fact that there were Achaians raiding the Anatolian coastline in the 13th century BC and that at one point they warred with the Hittites over Wilusa (Ilios); the documentation exists to prove it. Whether it was anything like what Homer describes is very doubtful, but the basic notion that Anatolians raided Achaia for women and the Achaia raided back, sacking cities, isn't in the least implausible.
>>265154
...at Troy.
Pic related, it's Troy.
>>264511
It never happened the way the Illiad says it did. For one, it wasn't a quarter as big as they claim it was.
We can't really be sure why it happened either
AH AT LEAST I HAVE MY GOOD FRIEND DEIPHOBOS-
>>265131
>Mycenaean definitely attacked troy.
neat, always thought it was just myth
can you recommend me any books on the subject?
Pic related was more badass than Achilles and the true star of the story t b qh
>>265059
There is evidence of the walls being besieged several times, so it likely happened but was inflated to make the greatest story ever
>>265154
Anatolia
>>265202
not that I know of, it was a seminar and field study but I'm sure you can find plenty of articles who spout different theories about whether or not a trojan war occured. But as far as I recall there was trouble there. Again it was a vital point ofc there would be invasions and conflicts but linking them to illiad is very hard
>>265154
>>264758
part of me wishes to believe this is a samefag
>>264728
lol faget.
Go actually read it you jackass.
>>264917
Achilles, Agamemnon, Ajax and pretty much everyone is afflicted with hubris throughout the course of the Iliad. When Greece is winning, the Trojans want a truce and the Greeks refuse. When the Trojans are winning, the Greeks want a truce and the Trojans refuse. It's a major point that in the haze of battle, no one makes good decisions. It adds to Hector's humanity which adds to the tragedy of his death. You are literally talking out of your arsehole to say no one saw him as heroic. He was a defending his home and his family. He's arguably the most heroic as well as the most human character in the Iliad, and if you think this is modern revisionism, you need to buck up on your reading comprehension.
>>265213
Based Diomedes comin' through.
>>265154
Ironically, just across the bay from where Gallipoli was fought.
>>265059
Did it happen exactly as Homer described it? No.
But was there a city at the site which matches Troy's location as described which was also destroyed towards the end of the Bronze age. It appeared to be very wealthy, and there are even geographic similarities to other things described by Homer- most notably the spring he describes. We also have records from the Hittites which describe something going on at Wilusa (Illium) involving the Ahhiyawa (Achaens). The Egyptians also reference it.
That being said, it's highly likely it was just a series of battles and not a full campaign. Many of the heroes may have existed, but it's also just as likely to be embellished. Hell, we do the same today with fights that are far better recorded. History is just somewhere in between.
It's kind of like how the Odyssey is probably related to the Sea Peoples. Or how the Labyrinth of Knossos is just a reference to Axes, and the Minotaur is likely just part of the Minoan Bull Obsession.
>>264524
There's archeological and historical evidence that a war happened in the area where it was supposed to be at the time it was supposed to have happened
>>265174
It should be said that we've always known where Troy was supposed to be, the Romans built a city there, called it Illium and attracted tourists
Daily reminder that Alexander the Great was basically IRL Achilles
>>266072
Athena didn't just back him up. She appeared to him in her true form. Even Odysseus didn't get that.
The Virgin Goddess wanted his cock, he one of the few to get a "good end" to the war, and he was the only Greek hero at Troy the Romans talked nicely about.
>>265951
Except without the climactic swallowing of his ego and demonstration of personal growth.
>>264511
Achilles was a spoiled brat that when things didn't go his way he went to his tent to have a temper tantrum. Odysseus only true understander of strategy
>>266122
Diomedes and Nestor were pretty astute too. It's a shame we never get to see Odysseus and Diomedes on their spy missions in Troy like stealing the Palladium.
>>266122
What manga is that picture from
>>266166
http://myanimelist.net/manga/10619/Heureka
>>266111
Da fuck are you talking about?
>>266230
The story of the Illiad is about Achillies being a selfish dick until the end where he is humbled by Priam's plea for his son's body.
>>266319
You actually see the process starting earlier than that, mostly at his dissatisfaction after he kills Hector and his conduct during the funeral games.
I would say that Priam's plea is definitely part of it, but you already see a demonstration of humility when he doesn't take the field in the javelin toss and lets Agammemnon take the prize when he could easily win it.
>>266105
>he was the only Greek hero at Troy the Romans talked nicely about.
I liked how Diomedes declined to war against Aeneas because "he killed enough Trojans in his lifetime".
I'd kill to see Diomedes' story made into a mini-series. The Trojan War and his adventures in Italy are told from his POV.
>>267298
Are there any books about his time in Italy?
>>267298
Diomedes' parts are the best parts of the Iliad. Its an absolute fucking tragedy that the epic about his return is lost
>>268226
Nah dude, Achilles swallowing his pride and attaining a moral superiority to complement the physical superiority is better.
Diomedes is a classic Greek hero, but he never really attains anything greater than that.
>>268226
>>267298
this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Valentinov
and these dudes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Oldie
wrote pretty decent fiction with main characters based on Iliad
Valentinov wrote Diomed, son of Tydeus
Oldies had an entire cycle on Odyssey
They also had a take on Hercules telling underrepresented side of him as a tragic figure cursed to repeatedly kill his closest ones in fits of rage
obviously all in russian
>>269857
look at this retard right here
>>264917
>Hector not being seen as heroic
Pick up the aeneis and read it please
>>266156
Is Nestor actually supposed to be any good? Like, I get that in the story he's supposed to be wise and all, but he only seems long-winded to me.
>>270079
You mean the Roman epic written ~800 years after the Iliad to justify Augustus' power? The Greeks didn't see Hector as heroic, the Romans mos def did.
>>264511
I've actually been there. And to where this picture was taken.
>>265951
>that small dick
I GUESS HE IS NOT THAT ''GREAT'' AT ALL
>>270079
Gee, I wonder why the would see hector as heroic seeing how they claimed to come from Aeneas.
>>265141
Learn to read, regards /lit/
>>265783
Yes, most of them were afflicted with hubris, but Hectors hubris cost him the war and the lives of all of troy.
I suggest your read Gregory Nagy's - Best of the Acheans or take his mooc The Ancient Greek Hero in 24 Hours. He explains it well. Who is Gregory Nagy, the director for the center of Hellenic Studies and also an American professor of Classics at Harvard University, specializing in Homer and archaic Greek poetry.
You are objectively wrong.
>>265918
If there is any evidence it's long gone because of that faggot archeologist who ruined the plot.
>>271713
Does it say that it's a movie prop? Because that is literally what it is.
>>271769
Yeah it was the horse from the movie Troy, it even says so at a plaque at the bottom. It's on the sea front in Cannakale. There's another horse at the site of Troy itself but it doesn't look quite as cool.
>>265213
>favored by Athena who was hot shit and my waifu
>top-tier fighter
>wounds not one, but TWO fucking gods (granted one of them was Aphrodite, but still)
>still humble enough to know not to fight battles he can't win
>survives the war and founds a shitload of cities
Diomedes was a fucking baller, Achilles a shit
