Are her ideas, specifically on the nature of women and the man woman relationship sound?
Considering her works are the basis of modern feminist theory, i'd be interested in hearing if you think her ideas are actually valid in a philosophical sense or if she was just a hack.
>>1398136
she was sarte's lecherous homebosy and hasn't contributed anything meaninful to philosophy as a whole. she, like most women, wrote about sexuality and apparently about threesomes with her, sarte, and other idiots like her. the fuck else is there to say
>>1398151
I tip my hat to you sir.
>>1398151
Im no fan of hers, but she did contribute some philosophical ideas, regardless of whether you think they are valid or not.
What about her idea of females as "the other sex", in that rather than the female sex having it'd own independent identity, it is instead merely the "other sex" in regards to males, being give it's definition by it differences to the male sex, rather than of the sex independently?
Do you think this idea has any validity? I'm eager to start an actual discussion here
>>1398160
why does it even matter this is literally just a "muh feels" debate
the entire "other sex" shit was just so it would get attention
Didn't based Camus used to pump her?
>>1398136
Did she deny there are any biological differences in behavior between men and women or is may memory making shit up?
>>1398440
She denied all differences between children which desu is false
She started this idea of "everything is a social construct" that's lead to the social disease today known as transgenderism
I'd be her boytoy but that bitch ain't passing me onto ol' googley eye
>>1398136
Not a bad theory but its basis has been proven wrong, there are biological gender differences that affect behavior and performance
>>1398486
it literally is though
She was a Maoist.
>>1398439
He spurned her advances
Her views were coming from the belief that existence precedes essence and not the other way around. There is no such thing as a human nature just as their is no such thing as a male or female nature. You are free to make yourself and act how you want to act, within reasonable limits.
>>1398136
I don't agree with her social constructionism.
There clearly are behaviors that are unique to each sex, which aren't the result of society at all.
The fact that a man wants to become an engineer might be socially constructed, but the fact that he wants to inseminate every female around him, and will do whatever it takes to make that happen clearly isn't.
>>1398560
Yeah but we can still choose to act in defiance of our urges.
>>1398616
Yeah we can, but so what?
Does that mean that humans aren't part of the animal kingdom, and don't have biological imperatives just like any other species?
Yes. The Second Sex in particular is very, very good. Everyone should read it, it's brilliant.
>>1398631
>$0.03 have been deposited in your account
>>1398443
trans people don't believe that sex is a social construct
>>1398649
>it's another pedantic sex/gender differentiation episode
>>1398560
both genders want to have sex with lot's of people though? probably women less but it's functionally the same
>>1398486
>discussing
See? thats the problem, in a sheltered world where "discussion" is even an option, genetic trash like simone can pretend they are equal to men by just "discussing" themselves into independence, while ignoring the systematic sheltering provided by men.
It might be crude but instead of wasting time untangling their complex excuses for their inferiority, its simpler to just point out that the only reason she seeks discussion in the first place is because she is unattractive and compensates for this physical unattractiveness by attempting to undermine the men whom perceive her as such.
While Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions did enforce overly restrictive norms on women, the alternative which developed was FAR worse and has only served to make women slaves to the economic machine instead of being proper mothers.
Proven wrong but begining to he taught in schools on my country, since it is PC.
The kind of thing that makes me lose hope on the education system.
>>1398653
Yeah sure, but I am talking about how that desire manifests itself.
A man isn't going to put on makeup to attract women, because women are attracted to specific characteristics.
There is a reason women are attracted to the same things in men, all across the world, in study after study, and that reason isn't because women are socially engineered to be attracted to broad shoulders and a square jaw.
>>1398845
for sure, but what use is this information? Do you feel it should influence how society is governed?
it's like that thing with blacks getting lower test scores, some blacks do really well academically despite this so why not just let people do what they want to
>>1398872
>for sure, but what use is this information? Do you feel it should influence how society is governed?
de Beauvoir is vastly more influential among feminists and academics in general, so why aren't you asking why her ideas are useful instead of mine?
>>1398883
>de Beauvoir is vastly more influential than me
for sure
>so why aren't you asking why her ideas are useful instead of mine
De Beauvoir wanted women to shrug off traditional gender roles (if i were a woman i would want this too), I am asking you if you are in favor of traditional gender roles
>>1398916
>I am asking you if you are in favor of traditional gender roles
Depends what you mean by traditional gender roles.
Do I support women doing whatever they want in life, including going to university, having good jobs, and having whatever hobbies they want? Absolutely.
Do I think women are the same as men? No.
Do I think men should be more like women? No.
Do I think modern feminists have completely missed the point of the first wave of feminism? Yes.
>>1398771
Id have lost hope on american education system around when ayn rand was a recomended book to read.
>>1398136
picture, thousand words etc
>>1398771
>proven wrong
What the fuck, how could they even prove that wrong? Righties making no sense again
>>1398872
People can do what they want, but when people aren't doing what *you* want and you blame it on socialization, and that we need to change society to get those results to be the way you think things should be, that's something very different. Denying that there is any human nature is just as political, if not moreso, than any posited human nature.
I think the Second Sex is a good book, in that it tells women they don't have to be mothers or wives and that they can contribute to society. It's well-researched and presents a compelling case that many women throughout history could have done many of the things men have done. She's not necessarily saying there should be no gender disparities, but that individual women (like herself) who want to do something stereotypically manly should be able to do so.
The issue is when many of those limitations are removed, and women then generally gravitate towards certain fields (like psychology, for instance; it is heavily women now), wondering why they're not doing STEM and assuming that it must be because some social construct is keeping them out requires several leaps of faith and is inherently political, because your ethical system places a heavy emphasis on the idea that there are no disparities in gender and manifestations of difference in apparent choice is therefore unjust. Other people don't share your worldview, and (to me at least) it seems wrong to question someone's choices as not their own but merely the product of social forces and think that you need to push them in a certain direction to match your ideal worldview. The current ideological war between some feminist groups and prostitutes/strippers is a good example.
>>1398845
You are sinking it into typical /r9k/ "wemen selfish they want chad" discussion.
The main point in her work was the fact that woman are perceived and most of all, see themselves as a object who needs subject (man) to define themselves. That point is long overcome, thanks to first and second wave feminism, sure, but it was an actual issue in her time.
As far as i understood it, rest of it is just "Do whatever the fuck you want", not saying men should lick pussies and women should be working in coal mines.
>>1399712
>The main point in her work was the fact that woman are perceived and most of all, see themselves as a object who needs subject (man) to define themselves. That point is long overcome, thanks to first and second wave feminism, sure, but it was an actual issue in her time.
This was my understanding as well. This books presaged the women's movement by over ten years, and the 60s/early 70s resolved the issues it points out. Simone wasn't Andrea Dworkin, who was radically against male and female differences and considered them the source of oppression, or Judith Butler, who seems to think we don't even need the idea of man and woman.
>>1399712
She only argues that it's been overcome because she could not get man herself.
Sartre was a cuck.
Same story, different day.
>>1399755
>Andrea Dworkin, who was radically against male and female differences and considered them the source of oppression, or Judith Butler, who seems to think we don't even need the idea of man and woman.
Well, i kind of agree with that desu. Why would be there need for any differences? Sure, we obey biological laws but why prescript a social (linguistic, clothing, ideal body) function for them? Why not let everyone be what they want to be, everyone will sink down to what he wants, be it biology or fucked up brain.
>>1398731
>posting Varg in a philosophy thread
know how I know this is bad bait?
>>1400152
That is what people do, they do what they want
It just happens to be that people like following norms
Let's stop pretending that gender roles are inherently bad or that we physically impose them on people
The weird thing about gender ideology is not that some philosophers defended it. The weird thing is that it became so influential.
How something so illogical became almost dogma in the West?
I want to "fuck" her ;)
>>1400551
t. Low test cuck
>>1400616
dude I would "punch" you ;)
>>1398560
Low sex drive men and gay exist
