Why does God have a problem with people speaking one language?
>>1353093
Because they are still massive sinners and will plot against him
>>1353102
>plot against him
What exactly would God have to fear?
>>1353104
His creation wallowing in sin
>>1353093
God said to cover the earth.
Man said let's all gather right here and make a name for ourselves.
God doesn't take rebellion lightly.
Because mankind was trying to build a staircase to summon God down to earth. God scattered them because he is not manipulated like that.
>>1353146
So?
>>1353167
Idk, because it's pretty much the second reason for he exists?
Read up on Cosmic Mountain Ideology, which was the prevailing religious worldview for all of Israel's neighbors. Essentially they believed that the origins of the world was chaotic waters filled with monsters and gods all battling for supremacy. One was able to conquer the others long enough to pull a mountain out of the sea. Now he lives above it and descends to fight disorder whenever the people summon him.
Genesis 11 tells the story of building a man made staircase above a temple to bring God down.
source - am writing seminary dissertation.
>>1353186
*Keeping his creation the way he wants it is the second reason for why he exists
>>1353188
/thread
not to mention the thing is 1:1 for a sumerian Ziggurat
>>1353188
Why were the Phoenicians all crazy
>>1353209
>But he is all powerful, literally what does it matter.
Gods in antiquity behaved very differently than later, refined conceptions. Haven't you read the Enuma Elish? Enki/Ea/El is very much like Zeus, basically just a giant man in the sky subject to the same capricious attitudes. Far more anthropomorphic than you're thinking.
>>1353188
The more you read into religion the more retarded it gets. Why couldn't it just stay pure mythology. It seems like a well done conglomerate of ancient mythologies.
>>1353228
>changes the goal posts when you cannot answer the question.
Obviously the Christian god, although based on the Anunnaki are not the same, I didn't even being to imply it.
>>1353209
Because that's what he wants. He thought free will was the best way to let us live. And since it is free he cannot know with certainty what will happen. All powerful doesn't mean he can defy all logic
>>1353240
>why would a belief system influenced by anthropomorphic gods make an anthropomorphic god
>why would a belief system spanning hundreds of years, numerous authors, and countless conflicts have internal contradictions
>>1353209
He knew what was coming, and he corrected it, because he is all powerful and does what he wants.
>f he is all powerful and we are his creations shouldn't he embrace all outcomes?
Huh ? Why though ? None of that necessarily follows.
>>1353271
That's what he wants and he will make sure that happens
>>1353259
>All powerful doesn't mean he can defy all logic
Omnipotent literally means he has unlimited power. 'He' is the echelon. Not bound by anything we know.
>He thought free will was the best way to let us live
How does this even make sense, when he punishes us for exercising our free will.
As my priest put it, the Tower of Babel was basically like the EU of ancient times, it was a symbol of man's global unity without God.
>>1353209
No. He sets conditions, and whoever accepts the conditions plays on, and whoever does not dies.
>>1353266
If you were all powerful why would you create something, give it the ability to choose and then punish it for said choice. That's malevolent. The idea that god gave us free will but for some reason doesn't want us to use said free will doesn't follow at all.
Seminary bro here again,
while these idiots are arguing about divine determinism, the better question is this: why didn't Yahweh correct Israel away from her own tendencies toward Cosmic Mountain Ideology? The OT frequently uses these mythologies, and even inserts Yahweh into them. Some of the Psalms feature God creating out of nothing, but some others feature God battling sea monsters and living above specific mountains.
my conclusion is that these are polemics, but many disagree. Even Genesis 1 and 2 should be read as shaming their neighbors gods rather than anything science-related...
>>1353259
>And since it is free he cannot know with certainty what will happen. All powerful doesn't mean he can defy all logic.
But that is what defines the Abrahamic God. What is He if He isn't omnipotent?
>>1353295
>why would you create something, give it the ability to choose and then punish it for said choice
>it's a babbies first theological conundrum episode
The abrahamic god already created beings that don't have the ability to choose, and loving follow his every whim unconditionally. They're called "angels". Humanity has the choice to love god, which makes it more valuable by nature. Think of it this way, would you appreciate a qt gf saying she loves you because she chose to love you, or because Chad is forcing a gun to her head and making her say that she loves you? That is the situation of men vs. angels.
Islam takes this a step further by introducing djinn, but nobody cares about Islam except other muslims.
>t. atheist
Because globalism being cancer isn't a new phenomenon.
>>1353319
Not really true. Demons are angels that decided to mutiny, and they are irredeemable.
>>1353319
>love me or go to hell
>not holding a gun to your head
>t. agnostic
>>1353330
That's pretty much spot on.
The Latins trying to make the Church into a globalist institution with one language and centralized control is also what caused the schism.
>>1353286
>>Omnipotent literally means he has unlimited power. 'He' is the echelon. Not bound by anything we know.
That means he can still be bound. And we can infer what he is bound by because he tells us, but not directly
>>How does this even make sense, when he punishes us for exercising our free will.
You literally bring the bad upon yourself by separating yourself from what is good. If you fuck prostitutes and beat your wife, your family will suffer because you ignore what is good in life. If you ignore God, you will suffer because his presence is what is good.
>>1353295
Because it should be obvious to do what he is saying anyways, punishment or not, but we still do it despite the punishment that it brings.
Maybe god should just build a power generator to keep the universe running and then just leave us the fuck alone!!!!
>>1353359
I'm going to trust trusted sources for my demonology, thanks.
>>1353366
Do your trusted sources conveniently gloss over the most obvious reference of Lucifer, the name meaning "light-bringer", with Venus? The Babylonian celestial cults where planetary movement was encoded with religious significance, and the other religions like ancient Hellenism with value attributed to celestial bodies? The concept of solar wheels, the procession of time, and equinoxes in general as MASSIVELY important to early agriculturalists?
>>1353359
>eternal life, or not.
What? It's
>eternal pleasure
>eternal pain
Either way you are going to exist for ever in one of his realms and you do choose, but to say he is not holding a gun to your head by saying "Do what I say or burn for an eternity in a pit of fire" is just silly.
IF he were empirically proven to be real and everything he said. No one in their right mind would choose Satan over god.
>>1353394
I'm not disagreeing with the way that pagan mythologies assigned extra-Biblical significance to them, I'm saying I find no Biblical evidence that God created demons. Rev 12 seems to indicate that He made angels, and that demons are angels that participated in a heavenly coup. Unlike humanity, these are not capable of redemption.
>>1353295
That is a really bad position to take, God never stopped people from willing anything, he only stopped certain actions from taking place. If your argument followed then God would be required to make a world in which every single person got what they wanted 100% of the time and nothing bad ever happened to anyone. Which would lead to a logical contradictions as people often want opposite things than others and use their freedom to with evil on one another. Your position does'nt work at all.
>>1353188
Where would I be able to find out more?
>>1353412
>If your argument followed then God would be required to make a world in which every single person got what they wanted 100% of the time and nothing bad ever happened to anyone. Which would lead to a logical contradictions as people often want opposite things than others and use their freedom to with evil on one another. Your position does'nt work at all.
God could, if he wanted to, create a world for each and every 'individual' in which the are the only true being in their world which they would never know and they DO get 100% of everything they ever wanted. When they die their life could then be judged whether it was 'good' or 'bad' and sent to their respective resting places.
This would have no impact on any others 'individual' free will. Only the simulations meant to test the true individual.
Everything you are saying holds no weight, you are arguing the fact a perfect god created an imperfect system. There are many, many other alternatives, if he were all powerful he could have taken.
All these ideas thought up by HUMANS, not gods.
>>1353093
To encourage diversity, multiculturalism, culture, tradition, communication, understanding, cooperation, acceptance, boundaries, identity, variety.
And a tower build to reach God, would soon become a tower to solely elevate man. And c'mon, that's a no-no and you know it. Absolute power, etc.
>>1353432
None of this is even close to the reasons for it
>>1353427
That would be deceiving humans though, he still wouldn't be acting "perfectly" according to most since deception is bad.
Being a perfect all powerful being being most importantly means doing what ever you want. God has no obligation to make any kind of world - he determines what is "good", not the other way around.
>There are many, many other alternatives, if he were all powerful he could have taken.
Yes and he chose not to, how is this a counter argument ?
>>1353287
Who gives a literal fuck what your "priest" says?
>>1353426
Clifford - the cosmic mountain
Morales - Tabernacle pre-figured
GK Beale - any essay about eden
Morales - Who Shall ascend?
Levenson - any books
Walton - Lost World of Gen 1
>>1353308
Another seminary makes another fool out of another person with no real faith.
Genuis--did it occur to you that satan concentrates his attacks on seminaries, to pick off idiots like you?
God battling sea serpents?
What the literal fuck?
>>1353469
>Yes and he chose not to, how is this a counter argument ?
>he chose to make things shit
How is this a god worthy of worship?
>>1353394
It's just more satanic bullshit. Jerome the Roman fool translated "Helel ben Shachar" into "Lucifer", and the monicker stuck. While Lucifer means "Light bearer", "Helel ben Shachar" means "Shining One, Son of the Dawn".
i.e. an angel.
All of this "satan is trying to give humanity enlightenment to get away from an evil wicked Creator" are lies from the pit of hell.
>>1353485
>God battling sea serpents?
>What the literal fuck?
Do you even Chaoskampf, slut?
>>1353485
Keep being afraid.
Also it's polemic poetry. Yahweh doesn't actually battle sea monsters. And if you've read the OT, you have had questions about these passages. Or wondered why it's important in Revelation that the new Jerusalem doesn't have an ocean. Or why Mark features so many stories about Jesus holding authority over water.
but I'm sure I'm the idiot. Keep contributing to Christian anti-intellualism thougj...
>>1353497
God as in deities, not YHWH.
>The motif of Chaoskampf (German for "struggle against chaos") is ubiquitous in myth and legend, depicting a battle of a culture hero deity with a chaos monster, often in the shape of a serpent or dragon.
...
>The origins of the Chaoskampf myth most likely lie in the Proto-Indo-European religion whose descendants almost all feature some variation of the story of a storm god fighting a sea serpent representing the clash between the forces of order and chaos. Early work by German academics such as Gunkel and Bousset in comparative mythology popularized translating the mythological sea serpent as a "dragon." Indo-European examples of this mythic trope include Thor vs. Jörmungandr (Norse), Tarhunt vs. Illuyanka (Hittite), Indra vs. Vritra (Vedic), Fereydun vs. Aži Dahāka (Avestan), and Zeus vs. Typhon (Greek) among others.[20]
>>1353494
No, I don't wallow in satanic shit because it warps your mind.
You are proof of that.
>>1353497
>I know nothing about tannin, the post
Look, the point I'm trying to make is this: understanding the OT is greatly helped by understanding the cultic contexts of Israel's neighbors. If we understand their mythologies, temple activities, and ethics, then some of the weird, head - scratching narratives and instructions from God make great sense.
Case in point - Babel is not about human hubris as much as it is about man obligation to come down and set up heaven on earth. It is a failed christmas on human terms, which makes the real christmas that much more significant
>>1353497
Keep thinking you know something about the bible because you're paying someone money to babble nonsense in your general direction.
The New Jerusalem is a satellite city; the new earth has no ocean.
Just like at creation.
Jesus is demonstrated to have power over EVERYTHING, not just water. You know, things like DEATH and the GRAVE.
An idiot next to you could make the same case for Jesus having power over wind being important!
And yes, you're the idiot. A City 1500 miles long by 1500 miles wide by 1500 miles high CANNOT FIT ON PLANET EARTH.
And if it did, it could not PROVIDE LIGHT TO THE ENTIRE EARTH.
>>1353510
Gee, I wonder if they come from the proto-evangelion?
kek
Keep being plebs
>>1353515
The fuck? It's literally about men trying to make their way into heaven.
And God says that if he let them be, THEY WOULD SUCCEED.
>>1353510
When will the wiki scholar come to an end?
>>1353521
Why are you trying to pick a fight with me? Yes, Jesus has power over everything, but it just so happens that chaotic water was the prevailing metaphor for evil for thousands of years in every neighboring culture for the people of god.
As long as poetry, either apocalyptic or polemic, is a biblical genre, we're going to see Jesus fight/eliminate water dangers.
the "no more oceans" is a statement in this direction,because it's a poetic way of saying we don't need to fear chaos and evil anymore.
>>1353512
history and comparative mythology is Satanic shit?
there's more to literature and holy texts than the tanakh and new testament senpai, but surely those exist merely to deceive you, like "dinosaur bones" buried in the ground by the devil
>>1353531
It's literally about building a staircase for God to come down and work for them.
>>1353487
Because things can always be infinitely better no matter how good they get, every world is equally distant from infinite goodness. We can make a complaint no matter how good the world is, and then if that complaint is satisfied then we can still make another complaint. Asking God to make a world in which we have nothing left to complain about is logically incoherent. God is good because he is that infinite goodness, not because of what ever amount of his goodness he decides on imparting to creation.
>>1353659
You are misunderstanding my point. I am not asking for more. I am asking why in this state. The answers you have given to do align to a world which you have described.
Simple as that.
>>1353093
Tower of Babel = arrogance
>>1353709
>I am asking why in this state.
There is no necessary connection between God creating and God creating creation in the way he has, so there is no way for us to answer the question of "why?". We can go off scripture to get an idea, but there is no way to securely answer this question if God is a free agent.
>>1353772
You are STILL misunderstanding me. I am not asking WHY he created everything. For the answer, if you want to know I agree we will never know why (Agnostic). I am saying we do not live in a universe where 'free-will' is objective like the bible would say it is.
What of an animal devoid of this human idea of free-will? What if we discover an alien force which wipes us out? Where is the Christian god in those scenario's? Personally I do like the idea of a god, a creator of some sort, frankly the idea that we live for nothing and is all just a big accident which happens for an eternity is quite depressing. But the god described in the Christian bible is a contradictory one.
Shall we just agree to disagree?
>>1353659
Give me a heroin like euphoria and a dumb intelligence that merely bathes in euphoria and never asks questions or feels any harm, and then you've got a world where no one is complaining.
>>1354030
The testes of an average stallion are 8 to 12 cm (3.1 to 4.7 in) long. That would be a redundancy.
>>1354030
>>1354279
There is, indeed, a reason why man rides the animal and not the opposite. I'm not even a Christian but the materialist view of a conflict-free pleasure-world is unbelievably toxic.
>>1353093
Because linguistics wasn't a thing 3000 years ago, while god of the gaps was.
>>1353093
>Tower of Babel OP
>expect thread about languages
>it's christians vs atheists for the 15532nd time
Fuck you /his/, and fuck me for being optimistic.
>>1354659
This should be a strict anthropology board with none of this philosophy riddle shit or religion ranting.
>>1353261
>cant back any of this up with anything that hasn't already been answered
>>1353802
>I am saying we do not live in a universe where 'free-will' is objective like the bible would say it is.
I just don't see how you are getting these conclusions from your premises. The deductive link does'nt seem to be there to me, sorry.
>Shall we just agree to disagree?
Sure
>>1354030
Things could always be even more euphoric and people could complain about things only being as euphoric as they are. Also, as a hypothetical people would still complain that such a world would rob us of valuable things. So I think that people would still consider that "not good enough".
>>1353093
you missed the point it wasn't about the language
God gave mankind the authority over all the earth and instead of ruling earth like god wanted them to they wanted to climb to heaven to be with him they were gonna gonna repeat the same mistake those before them made
>>1353093
He doesn't; he just hates skyscrapers.
>>1353093
coz he is a dick
yhvh realized he gets his power from people's beliefs
>>1353093
God is not real.
>>1353093
Because the Demiurge is a childish, evil and mad control freak.
That's why.
>>1354686
No one in pure euphoria can complain because it completely overwhelms you. I can make you dumb and snip out parts of your brain so that thats all you feel, and you literally dont want anything because you are incapable of it.
>>1354285
He said you cant make a world where no one complains, I dont even have to give you euphoria to do that. Why dont you tell us your secret instead of cryptically shitposting.
>>1353343
You literally did not answer the question. Free will means free to do good and bad and all that comes between. If you make a decision to do bad and god punishes you, that is not free will.
>alpha and omega, beginning and end.
Sounds pretty boundless to me.
>>1353544
Genesis 11
And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”
>>1353093
Why did he send Angels to attack us and wipe out the life on Earth?
Gods are dicks to people. Why? Because they can.
>>1353104
Iron chariots
>>1353093
Do Christians here believe this story literally happened? Can I get some input? Where's that Constantine guy when you need him...
There is no God.
Babel is just a made-up story.
A myth.
So who cares?
>>1353512
Seeing this less and less but unfortunately it still exists. Some people just call everything they are afraid of satanic so they can have an excuse to avoid their fears or have their fragile worldview affected.
>>1353188
Why can't it be a fable about why we have multiple languages? Does it have to be literal?
I also thought it was based on the jews' experiences when they were in Babylon.
The Tower of Babel and the Book of Job teach morality stories that make no sense in the modern context.
That's the problem with trying to adapt a religion created for goat herders thousands of years ago to the modern world. Some of it has value, but a lot of it is garbage.
>>1353167
Technically, given man's inherit nature, man's battle with flesh and sin....having a one world government would enable a specific group to not only have ultimate control and access to resources, but people as well.
Why this isn't ideal is if you read the book of Kings and Chronicles, you see that man, even God's "chosen people" are susceptible to evil.
So a singular ruling body, could potentially lead to mass suffering at the hands of those who get pleasure out of having people under their boot.
Basically, there would be no doubt that eventually the masses would have to suffer an asshole ruling body in charge.
It all comes down to the fact evil is present in our daily lives and that it breeds exploitation which causes suffering and injustice. You can have revolution, try to rewrite the rules, but it just wont last as long as man doesn't reject evil.
Evil, the very reason why people suffer, is like a cancer. And if it can be focused into a single ruling body, it would be like the world would suffer what we've seen in certain countries that seem by our standards "less civilized."
But instead of only seeing this in certain nation, the entire world would be susceptible to experiencing this, under that single ruling body.
>>1357978
But we have those. I drive my iron chariot to work everyday.
>>1353104
it's the in principle of the matter.
Think of it this way: you're a father, and your kid is so fucking pissed at you, he's screaming how he's going to kill you and hitting you on the shin.
Now, in that realistic moment, the child has pretty much no chance of killing you, and honestly even hurting you with their bare hands.
But are you really going to let the child think they can be a dick like that to anyone?
>>1359756
>building a tower to reach you is like wanting to kill you
Okay...
>>1353104
His creation hurting itself.
>>1353271
You're ignoring the blatant emotion of love.
Again, given man's inherit threat of evil, how man operates when evil is adopted, which causes suffering for other men...do you really think the creator of everything is going to ignore the cries of the suffering? That injustice truly goes unpunished?
The entire universe is built on organization and stabilization, but when man isn't stable, God, the Creator, somehow doesn't care?
The entire story of Babel was because God cares. Give men an inch and they'll take a mile. It's just something we have issues with. Greed, vanity, pride, general ego....
The art of extortion, stealing from honest people and threatening with them violence if they don't hand their resources over. Some men get off on this, it makes appeases their ego and pride. Makes them feel more like a "man".
You put the entire earth under one ruling body, and again, instead of seeing pockets of unjust nations, as we see now, you would see the entire earth suffering when those evil men find themselves in power. There would be no limit to the damage man can cause.
With separated nations, you at least have a chance for a pocket of men who can live and rule righteously. God has a section carved out for Him.
Because what man forgets in his arrogance and pride, is that man is not the creator of "good." That "good" is a concept that exists as an option to grab on to and utilize.
Man does good and arrogantly thinks he's responsible for it, arrgoantly thinks just because he enjoys discipline, morality, all things that God is the author of, man thinks HE'S the author of.
So man thinks all men love discipline and morality, man thinks, because he does well, that he can throw God's word to the side and somehow improve ideas and ideals. As if all men would love their personal ideas and philosophies...completely void of the fact, some men get off on causing others to suffer and be beneath them.
>>1359770
It's not even about that...baka
>>1359782
This. Basically this.
>>1359782
So he hurt them instead?
>>1359828
Gods wrath is only exercised in the wake of evil, since evil is not his will.
Innocent dying though, due to natural causes, or in the wake of mans evil, you cant assume they dont wake up in a better place. I mean we woke up on earth one day at birth, the earth along with the benefits of good and righteousness all existed before we were ever conceived. Literally everything from the foundation of physical reality, to the concepts that generate the emotional responses within the emotional spectrum, specifically what we could consider good and fair, which generates peace among a large group if said good is utilized and chosen, all of that..... it all existed before we were ever here. All of it, made to either grab onto or reject. So you cant just automatically assume that death means whatever you personally think it means. As if God hurts people for fun, or that He's evil Himself.
>>1359893
So he rewarded them all and sent them to heaven?
Sure sounds like they managed to reach heaven by building that tower.
